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The writers for this game had an interview earlier this year where they talked frankly about their writing process and how they came to some of the major decisions for major plot points for Endwalker. (It's full of spoilers, of course.) Judging from what they say there, it seems they determine the most important plot points and the trajectory of the main campaign about two years in advance. They mentioned that they performed the setup for some key stories long before they had an end-point in mind, and would come back to them later when there was a good opportunity to expand on or finish them. So this game's got both a good amount of deliberate planning beforehand and improvising and stitching together elements that had been set in motion but not resolved from years ago, and it does so in a fashion that's coherent, natural-feeling, and rewarding for players to enjoy. And it all combines into something incredible! I wonder how far ahead most MMOs write their most important plot ahead of time. Judging from the speed at which World of Warcraft's plot can hastily pivot, it's definitely not two years! Forsythia fucked around with this message at 21:01 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 16:47
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Forsythia posted:The writers for this game had an interview earlier this earlier where they talked frankly about their writing process and how they came to some of the major decisions for major plot points for Endwalker. (It's full of spoilers, of course.) Judging from what they say there, it seems they determine the most important plot points and the trajectory of the main campaign about two years in advance. They mentioned that they performed the setup for some key stories long before they had an end-point in mind, and would come back to them later when there was a good opportunity to expand on or finish them. World of Warcraft's plot can't actually hastily pivot, that's kind of part of the problem. So when they do try it, they basically cut out massive parts of the game and replace them with "nothing" if they aren't prepared 2 years in advance to shift. Which is why Warlord's successfully led to Legion, but BfA and Shadowlands are just utter trash.
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May 28, 2022 16:57
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Lord_Magmar posted:World of Warcraft's plot can't actually hastily pivot, that's kind of part of the problem. So when they do try it, they basically cut out massive parts of the game and replace them with "nothing" if they aren't prepared 2 years in advance to shift. Which is why Warlord's successfully led to Legion, but BfA and Shadowlands are just utter trash. This is probably why the "Loyalist" options in BfA were such nothingburgers, they'd already paid for all those Saurfang cinematics and dangit you are watching them like it or not.
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May 28, 2022 17:02
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Lord_Magmar posted:World of Warcraft's plot can't actually hastily pivot, that's kind of part of the problem. So when they do try it, they basically cut out massive parts of the game and replace them with "nothing" if they aren't prepared 2 years in advance to shift. Which is why Warlord's successfully led to Legion, but BfA and Shadowlands are just utter trash. 
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May 28, 2022 17:03
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wdarkk posted:This is probably why the "Loyalist" options in BfA were such nothingburgers, they'd already paid for all those Saurfang cinematics and dangit you are watching them like it or not. Honestly I thought the Loyalist options worked well, but only in the context of me playing a Forsaken.
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May 28, 2022 17:08
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Problem is, being a loyalist ultimately got you nothing of consequence (and even cost you at least one cosmetic item compared to being a rebel), because gameplay-wise, everyone has to be on the same page for the main story beats.
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May 28, 2022 17:38
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Congratulations Sanguinia on finishing Heavensward! This has been a fantastic Let's Play!
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May 28, 2022 18:01
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Craptacular! posted:Also, a question for those who think that Papalymo's death lacks heft due to how undeveloped he was, and how redundant he was in the Scions. Sang feel free to reply to this as well if you wish: Would you have preferred Urianger had died there instead? And for those of you who have seen the story to come, pretend Papalymo slides into the spot Urianger occupies in future stories. Since Urianger already had a tragic loss in late ARR and came close to betraying the party in Heavensward, I could kind of see them writing him sacrificing himself in this chapter to atone. On the other hand, the guy's been through so much misery for a while now that I kind of understand them giving him a breather. Well Papalymo couldn't do Urianger's plots in later expacs because he is different from Urianger and it would be weird for them to kill off Urianger just to make Papalymo offbrand Urianger.
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May 28, 2022 19:01
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Thereth iseth no universeth in whicheth I wouldeth giveth up Urianger foreth Papalymo.
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May 28, 2022 19:32
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Personally, I suspect that there's one other reason why we got the Lyse reveal, and that reason is Alisaie. Alisaie is the same character as Yda - a younger woman on the cast with an attitude of swaggering belligerence, a punch first attitude who's not impressed by the bad guy, and is occasionally the butt of the joke for not being the brightest bulb in the room or when she writes a check her fists/rapier can't cash. She even comes with a similar dynamic with a much more overtly intelligent but generally non-action male character. I don't think it's a coincidence that Yda's leaving the story once Alisaie is firmly established as part of the main cast, and the fanbase seems in general to react to Alisae much more strongly and positively than they did to Yda.
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May 28, 2022 19:37
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I suspect that there's one other reason why we got the Lyse reveal, and that reason is Alisaie. Alisaie is the same character as Yda - a younger woman on the cast with an attitude of swaggering belligerence, a punch first attitude who's not impressed by the bad guy, and is occasionally the butt of the joke for not being the brightest bulb in the room or when she writes a check her fists/rapier can't cash. She even comes with a similar dynamic with a much more overtly intelligent but generally non-action male character. I think that there was definitely some cast reshuffling going on here, but I don't think it was specifically because Alisaie was brought in. I think Alisaie was brought in to replace Yda because they had always planned to have a female character go home to Ala Mhigo in an attempt to liberate it from Garlean oppression. In fact I think that was something that was planned from 1.0. It's just that I think the character they'd intended to use was Minfilia. I think they had intended the invasion of Ala Mhigo to be a sort of trial by fire for her where she proved her ability to lead the Scions. But Minfilia proved to be an unpopular character in ARR, so they instead went with the Word of the Mother and Warriors of Darkness plotline, which essentially wrote her out of the story. They then rewrite Yda into Lyse, and at that point they honed Alisaie into (imo a much better) version of Yda.
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May 28, 2022 20:20
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Cythereal posted:Personally, I suspect that there's one other reason why we got the Lyse reveal, and that reason is Alisaie. Alisaie is the same character as Yda - a younger woman on the cast with an attitude of swaggering belligerence, a punch first attitude who's not impressed by the bad guy, and is occasionally the butt of the joke for not being the brightest bulb in the room or when she writes a check her fists/rapier can't cash. She even comes with a similar dynamic with a much more overtly intelligent but generally non-action male character. Yda is a cheerful dumbass and Alisae is a furious dumbass. They're pretty similar but strike different chords imo. I think it's fair to say that it's a lot easier to write for Alisae as a character than Yda, though, and she definitely became a fan favorite very quickly after rejoining the main cast.
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May 28, 2022 20:20
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Thundarr posted:Yda is a cheerful dumbass and Alisae is a furious dumbass. They're pretty similar but strike different chords imo. I think it's fair to say that it's a lot easier to write for Alisae as a character than Yda, though, and she definitely became a fan favorite very quickly after rejoining the main cast. Yeah, yda and Alisae are still very different characters, despite surface level similarities. That said, thank you, Sanguinia, this has been my favorite LP since Elentor’s ff7 LP.
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May 28, 2022 20:58
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Hellioning posted:Well Papalymo couldn't do Urianger's plots in later expacs because he is different from Urianger and it would be weird for them to kill off Urianger just to make Papalymo offbrand Urianger. I assume for the purposes of the thought experiment they're not just search-replacing Urianger's name with Papalymo, they're changing things up so that plot-vital things are done in Papalymo ways rather than Urianger ways and character development stuff is totally replaced. Anyway Urianger is my friend I don't want him dying so some potato I barely know can live. Although if they had done it, I'd be talking about it the other way saying that Papalymo is my friend I don't want him dying so some overly-secretive elf can live But to actually answer the question, I think I would have been more affected if Urianger had died instead. But murdering the characters people care about isn't really sustainable plot development. Qwertycoatl fucked around with this message at 21:28 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 21:23
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Urianger is also the quest giver for a lot of optional content like the Warring Triad and some Hard/Ex trials. If they killed him in the story, they'd have to give those quests to someone else, since a player might not pick them up until later. It would be a mess. I think they had Papalymo marked as expendable long before they had an actual plan for when/how to kill him.
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May 28, 2022 21:56
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GilliamYaeger posted:Thereth iseth no universeth in whicheth I wouldeth giveth up Urianger foreth Papalymo. 
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May 28, 2022 22:10
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If I were to offer an opinion. Perhaps they should have leaned into Papalymo being a bit of an older leader figure for the Scions as a whole. Not to the point of out-doing them in their respective fields, but comments on how handy his knowledge might have been when he was missing. He’s always been Louisoux’s greatest pupil, perhaps if they’d made that a more clear character detail and theme this might have hit better. In saying that, I’m a huge fan of the style of writing where every character in a narrative is the “protagonist” of their own story. Discworld does it extremely well as an example. To which end, I do think Papalymo’s big moment works. He may not have been a huge part of our story, but it’s clear this is the end to his story, the story of the greatest pupil of Louisoux, and that he was vital in the story of Lyse.
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May 28, 2022 22:13
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FuturePastNow posted:Urianger is also the quest giver for a lot of optional content like the Warring Triad and some Hard/Ex trials. If they killed him in the story, they'd have to give those quests to someone else, since a player might not pick them up until later. It would be a mess. Those quests are actually an example of an NPC being able to be in two places at once. If you haven't done Urianger's 2.X Extreme Trials quests then he'll always be in the Waking Sands to offer them, but if he's ever in a different location as a quest giver as just an NPC you can talk to in the environment, then he'll be in both locations simultaneously.
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May 28, 2022 22:15
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Veotax posted:Those quests are actually an example of an NPC being able to be in two places at once. If you haven't done Urianger's 2.X Extreme Trials quests then he'll always be in the Waking Sands to offer them, but if he's ever in a different location as a quest giver as just an NPC you can talk to in the environment, then he'll be in both locations simultaneously. That's kind of goofy but it's, for want of a better phrasing, emotionally okay. If he's alive it doesn't particularly matter where it is, but it would feel incredibly strange if he did some big sacrifice and now he's gone forever except also he's in the waking sands talking about extreme primals as if nothing had happened.
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May 28, 2022 22:27
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Veotax posted:Those quests are actually an example of an NPC being able to be in two places at once. If you haven't done Urianger's 2.X Extreme Trials quests then he'll always be in the Waking Sands to offer them, but if he's ever in a different location as a quest giver as just an NPC you can talk to in the environment, then he'll be in both locations simultaneously. (I had this handy from an alt at the end of Heavensward that was in the fun situation of already being past the added check for Crystal Tower before they patched that requirement in for the end of ARR, so it's not like this situation can even crop up for new players anymore)
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May 28, 2022 23:38
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Tataru has her priorities right when it comes to magitek.
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May 29, 2022 00:16
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Like Clockwork posted:Personally I'm just very excited to see Sanguinia dissect the writing around Viceroy Smiley, because I do like him quite a lot even if I don't expect other people to. All of this, basically. I'm pretty fond of fictional antagonists generally because unlike real life monsters it's fun to put them under a glass and examine them like a cool bug and Viceroy Smiley is a very fun bug to watch imo. It's pretty easy to find The Hunt Begins with a quick google at least, and the book it was included in (The Chronicles of Light) is getting a reprint later on this year. But it's definitely worth reading because it's one of the few really bad instances of hiding important things in difficult to officially access background material.
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May 29, 2022 00:17
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Hogama posted:https://i.imgur.com/iQ6SQXq.mp4 I wish I had paid more attention to yellow sidequests when I was playing through HW, because I definitely had Nero in two places at once.
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May 29, 2022 04:20
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Hogama posted:https://i.imgur.com/iQ6SQXq.mp4 I see Nero and a guy with a cool mask. Next you tell me Quattro Bajeena and the Red Comet, Char Aznable are one and the same.
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May 29, 2022 06:22
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Jack-Off Lantern posted:I see Nero and a guy with a cool mask. Next you tell me Quattro Bajeena and the Red Comet, Char Aznable are one and the same. Or that Redolent Rose and The Masked Rose are somehow related.
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May 29, 2022 06:27
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This lets play has been a excellent experience, always fun to see new player opinions. I myself got into ff14 because i listened to the alexander prime music one day, went "woah this is cool" and then played the whole story over a month or so. Honestly the plot is a large part why I like to stick around now but i have a terribly short attention span so seeing you do side content has been perfect for someone like me, on top of the usual joy a new player experiencing ff14. As for Stormblood im in camp of it being the weakest expansion out of them all, but luckily its still really really good and i have only like one negative to say of it, which will absolutely come up.
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May 29, 2022 12:52
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If I may humbly suggest for the StB thread tag
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May 29, 2022 14:16
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Zomborgon posted:If I may humbly suggest for the StB thread tag Nah, I think it should be: 
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May 29, 2022 14:20
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the yda/lyse twist was a bit awkward, but i still found it perfectly thematically coherent. i'm trying to limit this to things we already know as of the last patch of heavensward, but gonna spoiler it just to be on the safe side: from the rise of the mad king theodoric trying to forcibly change culture to suit his paranoid needs to the garlean occupation forcing their own norms on the populace, ala mhigo saw upheaval after upheaval in living memory. on top of that, there's an entire generation of young adult ala mhigans that has only ever known exile while another parallel generation has only ever known occupation, with next to no contact between each other. ala mhigo as a nation and ala mhigans as a people have worn and still wear many disparate "masks", so it makes sense the character primed to represent ala mhigo wore a mask to make sense of it all but is unsure of who she is and who she should be underneath it.
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May 29, 2022 14:25
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OH, here's a question, Sanguina; have you checked out what's happened with the latest Ultimate? Technically, it's the most recent content in terms of raiding, but Ultimates are retrains/retellings of previous events (like Extremes, but to a much more extreme degree in terms of alternate stories/alternate enemies, covering either previous Raids or previous MSQ events) and the one just released covers Heavensward MSQ events. Obviously, you can't actually do the Ultimate (even if you were at level, a casual group would probably take weeks of prog), but even those who didn't participate and only watched others do it were really excited for a bit to see what they did with the HW events.
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May 29, 2022 14:45
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I agree it was awkwardly handled but I never really got the ‘Why should this matter to me?’ reaction to that lyse scene. It’s not really a reveal or twist pertaining to your character, but felt more like the opening beat of her own story. My personal opinion is base stormblood is in the same ballpark as base Heavensward. The amazing 3.1-3.3 patch content is what made heavensward great to me, the base HW expansion story was good but had a ton of awkwardness and jank to it and kinda felt incomplete.
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May 29, 2022 14:48
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ParliamentOfDogs posted:I agree it was awkwardly handled but I never really got the ‘Why should this matter to me?’ reaction to that lyse scene. It’s not really a reveal or twist pertaining to your character, but felt more like the opening beat of her own story. That's because it literally is. The way they do the stories is that .0-.3 for HW, Stormblood and Shadowbringers are a complete story, with the .4 and .5 patches being introductions to the next story. As an example, the Dragonsong War ENDS in 3.3. Stormblood is slightly less clear but we'll get to it when we get to it. Shadowbringers is really obvious in how it does it. Endwalker specifically was actually written to pull the content up to .3 into the .0 story (it's "30%" larger as a .0 patch) in part because they didn't want to leave people unsatisfied by the ending.
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May 29, 2022 15:06
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I’ve played through the game, I know how the patch cycle goes. Base HW still felt like not a complete story compared to the others, and the handling of the nanamo stuff is still the most awkward the game has ever been in my opinion.
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May 29, 2022 15:13
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AncientSpark posted:OH, here's a question, Sanguina; have you checked out what's happened with the latest Ultimate? Technically, it's the most recent content in terms of raiding, but Ultimates are retrains/retellings of previous events (like Extremes, but to a much more extreme degree in terms of alternate stories/alternate enemies, covering either previous Raids or previous MSQ events) and the one just released covers Heavensward MSQ events. Obviously, you can't actually do the Ultimate (even if you were at level, a casual group would probably take weeks of prog), but even those who didn't participate and only watched others do it were really excited for a bit to see what they did with the HW events. I overheard a little bit about the addon drama and know its a Heavensward themed fight, but not anything else.
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May 29, 2022 18:34
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AncientSpark posted:OH, here's a question, Sanguina; have you checked out what's happened with the latest Ultimate? Technically, it's the most recent content in terms of raiding, but Ultimates are retrains/retellings of previous events (like Extremes, but to a much more extreme degree in terms of alternate stories/alternate enemies, covering either previous Raids or previous MSQ events) and the one just released covers Heavensward MSQ events. Obviously, you can't actually do the Ultimate (even if you were at level, a casual group would probably take weeks of prog), but even those who didn't participate and only watched others do it were really excited for a bit to see what they did with the HW events. Can Sang even unlock it? Doesn't it require clearing StB savage raids?
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May 30, 2022 03:09
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Nah, wasn't talking about unlocking it, just wondering if they heard through the grapevine of the events that happen in it. It's very cool for nerding out about possibilities that could have happened in HW MSQ due to it being an alternate retelling. Technically, it'd be spoiling yourself if you just watch or read up on what happens in it, but Ultimates are basically the super-raids that would require weeks of progging and it'd be a long time before you're levelled to get to that point anyway. So if you don't intend to try the actual fights when you get up to that level (a very real possibility for most people), it's still very cool to look up what happens in it, now that we're done with HW and can't spoil the actual plot with it. AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 03:23 on May 30, 2022 |
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May 30, 2022 03:11
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hazardousmouse posted:Can Sang even unlock it? Doesn't it require clearing StB savage raids? It requires clearing the current EW savage tier
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May 30, 2022 03:16
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Stormblood is still my favorite expansion (not the best, but my favorite) and so I'm going to be  ing away
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May 30, 2022 05:25
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Endwalker is my favorite and I hope we get there because between now and then is quite a ride.
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May 30, 2022 06:05
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I think of Stormblood as the lift hill, and the expansions following as an exceptionally long (emotional) roller coaster. It's not as exciting as what follows, but it is necessary.
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