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Borrovan posted:Think how many people those donkeys could feed I don't think any cultures eat donkeys as a matter of course - too useful, and if want a wierd skinny animal to eat there's always goats (which would also be ready to eat quicker)
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Dec 1, 2021 13:55
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Re further on Israel / Palestine I was just thinking that Palestine existed for centuries and was under British mandate from around 1920 before the founding of Israel and Britain is directly implicated in the situation via Sykes-Picot & Balfour so the British do have some responsibility for what is going on there. I guess I should also disclose for rattle (as I have mentioned on here before but poss before rattle's time), I have very personal reasons for interest in this area, it's not just a 'popular lefty cause' for me.
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Dec 1, 2021 13:56
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Ok but we're focusing on donkeys now
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Dec 1, 2021 13:58
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Are they anti-zionist donkeys or anti-semitic donkeys?
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Dec 1, 2021 14:01
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nm just learned the donkeys are catholic
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Dec 1, 2021 14:02
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I think it was dara o'briain used to do a bit about how hosed it was on an evolutionary level that humans seem to have way more empathy for other species than their own
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Dec 1, 2021 14:02
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therattle posted:I also think that there can be different good-faith perspectives on whether anti0-Zionism is antisemitic or not. There is a tendency on the left to automatically assume that anyone saying anti-Zionism is antisemitic is acting in bad faith though, which is kind of annoying imo since it just isn't true. Lots of Jews sincerely believe that the only way to protect the Jewish people from *gestures at recorded history* is a Jewish state, meaning that opposing Zionism is opposing the safety of the Jewish people. But frankly it's hard to engage in good faith debate with those people anyway, since why would they want to debate with people they regard as racist against them (& in any event it's essentially an emotional argument, which you pretty much can't debate anyway).
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Dec 1, 2021 14:04
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I certainly think that if Jewish people have a safe state it certainly makes more sense to be near Jerusalem and not Stalin's galaxy brain idea to shove them on the Sino-Siberian border.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:05
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Although the term "Chinebrew" passed through my head and now I'm fascinated at the concept.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:07
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kecske posted:I think it was dara o'briain used to do a bit about how hosed it was on an evolutionary level that humans seem to have way more empathy for other species than their own I'm *fairly* sure that cows, sheep, chicken and hundreds of other species we keep in confinement then kill and eat would want to debate him on this.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:08
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Still blown away by that guy who streams geoguessr on super hard mode and somehow recognises a tree as being a bit ukranian looking and gets within 1km of the target If it's the guy I'm thinking of he also does an occasional series where he tries to cross a country in a completely straight line, completely disregarding any land borders in his way. Anyway sorry, back to Israel Palestine
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Dec 1, 2021 14:09
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Bobby Deluxe posted:China is also turning into a huge global market that nobody wants to piss off. I really wanna piss them off personally.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:22
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therattle posted:I see that. But if you look at the post I quoted above there is also something going on with China that doesn't get the same focus. Even journalists have to be careful because if their paper / station is publicly traded, the owners might get a quiet word in their ear if the article is too critical.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:23
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Isomermaid posted:If it's the guy I'm thinking of he also does an occasional series where he tries to cross a country in a completely straight line, completely disregarding any land borders in his way. Yeah, pretty sure the same dude, and I once again highly recommend kicking back and watching his "mission across" series This is my favourite. He nearly dies multiple times in this one, especially in the bog, it's brilliant https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_japiE6QKWoP-qPQ3wXuOtLkZeYumJRH
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Dec 1, 2021 14:26
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Isomermaid posted:If it's the guy I'm thinking of he also does an occasional series where he tries to cross a country in a completely straight line, completely disregarding any land borders in his way. I liked the Scottish one where he managed to near enough clamber over a working, guarded factory like Solid Snake through sheer luck then nearly got lifted and had to give up because some farmer lost his mind thinking they were going to give his old wife Covid by camping in the woods a kilometre from their house.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:28
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ThomasPaine posted:I liked the Scottish one where he managed to near enough clamber over a working, guarded factory like Solid Snake through sheer luck then nearly got lifted and had to give up because some farmer lost his mind thinking they were going to give his old wife Covid by camping in the woods a kilometre from their house. hahaha, yeah, that one was ridiculous. It's a shame, they were doing really well too. My heart was in my mouth when they were going through the factory
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Dec 1, 2021 14:30
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Also Jerusalem's history and it's importance to three major world religions, means it's not paticularly surprising that the Israel/Palestine issue occupies more space in the public imagination around the world, than for example the Tigray/Amhara territorial disputes in Ethiopia.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:30
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ThomasPaine posted:Your brother sounds like he's a bit silly. The reason Israel gets specific attention in the West is not because of anti-semitism* but because it is the only country in the world that is 1) a de-facto (and increasingly de jure) race state, 2) actively pursuing apartheid policies towards an ethnic minority population that it considers, at best, to have effectively zero equal rights within its borders, and at worst to be outright subhuman, and 3) is a colonial project with its roots firmly in euro-american imperialism, which our countries directly enable and benefit from. Honestly, the view we get of Israel is, if anything, extremely sanitised, and I'm not just talking about the gratuitous clips you see of war crimes being committed. It's somehow even more disturbing to see things like mass rallies on prestigious university campuses, with huge numbers of the country's most educated and (supposedly) thoughtful people waving Israeli flags and literally calling for the mass expulsion and/or murder of Arabs. Sorry, saw this after I wrote my previous post. I take your point 1. Point 2 applies to ethnic minorities within a number of countries. point 3 also does to a degree in that China for example is a colonial project but not rooted in western imperialism (and which we benefit from). With regard to Turkey, China etc I think that to separate the separatist threat and the racial subtext is not right, and that the racist subtext (or text) has been present for a very long time. in Xinjiang I think it can be argued that state repression has fuelled conflict far more effectively than any separatist movements did, and that there is widespread Han prejudice against Uighur. I also believe that there is a long history of Turkish racial discrimination against Kurds. I also think that you are overstating the degree to which the conflation of Israel and Judaism among far-left tinfoil hats is encouraged. I would like to see you argue with regard to other forms of racism that it's just lazy dumbasses who don't think sufficiently rather than active racists.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:30
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therattle posted:
I don't think that's right. As someone who was born and raised in Israel as a jew, I can tell you that Israel has A LOT of secular jews that care a lot about the flag and the star of david but not for any religious reasons, for example. This might be true for foreign jews, it might vary from place to place, I don't know, but it's definitely not as clear cut as that. In my personal experience as a secular jew it is far more of a nationalist symbol than a religious one. Jaeluni Asjil posted:Re further on Israel / Palestine I think I have posted this here before, but interestingly the Israeli history books loving hate the british and consider them to have sold the jews out on multiple occassions, the Balfour declaration being one of them since it only committed the British to 'a national home for jews' or something along those lines and not just straight up giving them the entire country. There's a quote attributed to, iirc, David Ben Gurion (Israel's first PM) in the 40 that goes somthing like "We must fight the Nazis as if the british don't exist, and fight the british as if the nazis don't exist". Borrovan posted:I think it's very hard to engage in any good faith debate on the topic, because of how many people there are deliberately poisoning the debate. I can't even fault the logic to be honest, given the treatment that every ethnicity without their own country get, see tibet, the uygurs, the kurds, hell even just the absolute clusterfuck that Syria has been over the past decade! The reason it breaks down though is because they assume, much like whites in the southern US and south africa did, that as soon as equality is reached (or if palestinians are given an upper hand) they'll treat the jews like the Israeli state is currently treating them (or worse!) which is very telling. This probably wouldn't be an issue if Israel weren't treating them worse than cattle in many cases, or it might depending on who you ask since some Israelis and/or jews are insanely racist and consider all palestinians/arabs to be nothing more than bloodlust fueled animals. Tesseraction posted:I certainly think that if Jewish people have a safe state it certainly makes more sense to be near Jerusalem and not Stalin's galaxy brain idea to shove them on the Sino-Siberian border. The actual other alternative proposed by zionists was, I believe, Uganda.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:34
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therattle posted:I would like to see you argue with regard to other forms of racism that it's just lazy dumbasses who don't think sufficiently rather than active racists.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:34
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Borrovan posted:I think it's very hard to engage in any good faith debate on the topic, because of how many people there are deliberately poisoning the debate. That's really true, completely agree. Bobby Deluxe posted:I think my point (or at least part of my intended point) was that China's economic power is deliberately leveraged to supress a lot of criticism of the government. There's not the same economic fear of criticising the Israeli government and losing access to their markets / investors as there is of losing out on Chinese money. Yes, I also agree with that. But it's also a "conspiracy"of sorts, just of a different kind. Anyway, I think that's enough for now. Thanks for engaging with this.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:34
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Barry Foster posted:hahaha, yeah, that one was ridiculous. It's a shame, they were doing really well too. Good news! He's trying again in Wales shortly. I think he said the videos will go up around Christmas.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:35
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ThomasPaine posted:Though I accept that there are small pockets of anti-semitism, explicit and otherwise, on the left. You do see for example some very sus conflation between 'Israeli' and 'Jewish' interests from some of the more tin-foil hat lefties, though ofc this is deliberately encouraged by the former to implicitly undermine criticism and I genuinely do believe a significant portion of the people who do this are just lazy dumbasses who don't think sufficiently before they speak rather than active racists. Honestly I don't care. I don't care if they're racists because they're idiots or because they're actively malicious since the end result is frequently the same for me.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:36
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Borrovan posted:The Venn diagram of active racists & dumbasses who don't think properly is two overlapping circles with no elements in the non-overlapping parts
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Dec 1, 2021 14:37
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Borrovan posted:This wasn't an argument btw I jsut wanted to make a Venn diagram joke Actually it's a euler diagram. 
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Dec 1, 2021 14:39
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Dec 1, 2021 14:40
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Miftan posted:The actual other alternative proposed by zionists was, I believe, Uganda. *turns to audience* We regret to inform you the Ugandan discussions meme is anti-Semitic.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:47
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Tesseraction posted:*turns to audience* We regret to inform you the Ugandan discussions meme is anti-Semitic. I think you're gonna have a rough time calling Theodor Herzl antisemitic tbh
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Dec 1, 2021 14:48
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Ugandan discussions is a meme based on Tory bonking a mistress and when caught leaving the place tried to claim they were merely discussing the situation in Uganda. From there on out "Ugandan discussions" meant loving on the job.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:50
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therattle posted:Sorry, saw this after I wrote my previous post. True, but my point was more that Israel is built like that from the ground up. By incorporating race-state ideology into the fabric of the country you by definition create a group of second-class citizens. Other governments may persecute minorities, but that persecution isn't often hardwired into the state apparatus. therattle posted:With regard to Turkey, China etc I think that to separate the separatist threat and the racial subtext is not right, and that the racist subtext (or text) has been present for a very long time. in Xinjiang I think it can be argued that state repression has fuelled conflict far more effectively than any separatist movements did, and that there is widespread Han prejudice against Uighur. I also believe that there is a long history of Turkish racial discrimination against Kurds. Possibly. I agree there's certainly a degree of cultural chauvinism involved, particularly with regards to Han Chinese - even Mao acknowledged that. They certainly consider themselves the superior culture, but I don't think that necessarily translates to inherent racialisation much less widespread genocidal intent. Looks far more like the kind of regional bigotry you get in almost every country (haha the Welsh are dumb and like to shag sheep lol). There are countless different ethnicities in China, there's no reason the government would decide that it detested one of them just because. There's no ideological basis for it, and there continue to be Uyghur members of the CCP, which is completely incompatible with that theory. I think it's much more likely that, and we agree here, current events in Xinjiang probably have sadly fuelled both anti-Uyghur prejudice amongst Han Chinese and, very understandably, the reverse. Beijing's policy has been heavy-handed and counterproductive. therattle posted:I also think that you are overstating the degree to which the conflation of Israel and Judaism among far-left tinfoil hats is encouraged. Possibly, I'd also like to see some actual research on this. It's quite difficult because I can't think of any comparable context in which race and state have been so deliberately bound together. e: Miftan posted:Honestly I don't care. I don't care if they're racists because they're idiots or because they're actively malicious since the end result is frequently the same for me. Oh, for sure, but it's important to understand the difference I think. You can educate an idiot, you can't educate an ideologically committed fascist.
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Dec 1, 2021 14:51
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Miftan posted:Actually it's a euler diagram. Venn diagrams are Euler diagrams. Do you want me to draw a diagram to explain it?
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Dec 1, 2021 14:55
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The weird machinations of Sir John Cosmos strike again - we were discussing the Transporter Bridge in the last thread, and TFTM discussed this amazing story (in a derail about media representations of Tarzan which was itself a derail from a discussion of John Darwin, the bloke who faked his own death in a canoe accident, on this football podcast). Anyway apparently Terry Scott once drove straight off the end of the bridge but was fortunately caught by netting put there for this exact reason, which led to this amazing picture of him reacting to said bridge in the local press: https://twitter.com/Tees_Issues/status/1215217740065202176 Bookmarked for future use when reacting to, well, just about anything happening in these times.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:05
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Terry. That's a name that was a lot more common in the 70s, when everything was brahn
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Dec 1, 2021 15:15
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I forgot all about the existence of Terry Scott until now.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:19
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Barry Foster posted:Terry. That's a name that was a lot more common in the 70s, when everything was brahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pivL4QdtiuM
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Dec 1, 2021 15:30
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Call me old but two of my exes were called Terry so I refer to one as Terry the First and the other as Terry the Pathetic (because he was). My parents thought Terry and June (Terry Scott and June Whitfield) was the epitome of sophisticated comedy. The fact that they bore a physical resemblance to T&J may have had something to do with it.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:32
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Good news everyone, we don't have to worry about Omicron anymore https://twitter.com/Snrovy/status/1466051942774358024
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Dec 1, 2021 15:34
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keep punching joe posted:Good news everyone, we don't have to worry about Omicron anymore 'Nasa is expecting the space rock to stay 2.4 million miles away from us.' gently caress, you nearly got my hopes up
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Dec 1, 2021 15:38
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Re: Anti-Semitim and the left. I think it was Richard Littlejohn (or possibly Rod Liddle) in the mid 2000s that did a documentary about how Anti-Semitic Britain is and decided that it was because of the left. And Muslims.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:41
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keep punching joe posted:Good news everyone, we don't have to worry about Omicron anymore They're sending Bruce Willis up aren't they to give a tiny moon orbiting it a nudge. Can't see any danger with that, no sirree.
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Dec 1, 2021 15:52
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