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RFC2324 posted:If your kid is taking power tools to your gun storage, you maybe just should get rid of the guns Pretty sure if the kids at that point you're too late. And maybe you should have been a more attentive parent and taking the warning sign seriously and been proactive.
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Dec 2, 2021 16:45
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FrozenVent posted:Sometimes security theatre is convenient if only to show that there was criminal intent to take the gun without permission.
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Dec 2, 2021 16:45
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mlmp08 posted:There is a group of gun owners who will accuse you of extreme classism over this take. I became a gun owner this year. My wife's one requirement was that I purchase a locking cabinet to keep them in. I bought it from Home Depot for $150. I spend more on a range membership then I did on this thing. It bolts to the door, and it's enough to keep casual criminals at bay. Those gun owners are right up there with anti vaxxers in terms of entitlement. The "I want to do what I want when I want and gently caress anyone else" mindset. It's loving irresponsible and anyone with that take can eat my entire pasty white rear end.
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Dec 2, 2021 16:45
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I am not a lawyer. Best as I can tell, conviction of a first-degree murder charge in Michigan requires sentencing as an adult. Not sure if juvenile court can sentence as an adult, or if successfully tried as a juvenile, would have to issue a disposition requiring trial as an adult anyway. Also of interest: according to the Michigan State Juvenile Benchbook, Minors tried as adults, even for homicide, may not receive the normally mandatory sentence of life without parole. piL fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 16:54
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A gun safe costs about as much as a short range day worth of ammo lol
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Dec 2, 2021 16:55
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I have a pretty modest gun collection, and the cost of my locking metal cabinet is about 5% the cost of all of the items inside it, and that doesn't include some gun paraphernalia I don't bother to lock up like spare magazines, target equipment, range bags, etc. This also ignores 100% of ammo costs, which has been a LOT over the years. I see it as the bare minimum responsible safety item to own. And while a locked pistol cabinet can literally be carried out of the house by a burglar to be opened later, it still deters a young kid and makes a teen really have to commit to "I am breaking into this cabinet now." If you own literally one cheap firearm, then yeah, the cabinet might be 30-50% the cost of your gun ownership, but that's the way it works...
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Dec 2, 2021 16:58
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A "real" safe that can stop a determined attacker for more than 10-15 minutes is expensive as hell, but as has been said if your kid is at the point of taking an angle grinder to the thing you've already failed. Those security cabinets and lockboxes are plenty of protection against casuals, just as long as you use the damned things and don't leave the keys in plain sight. I looked into a full on high security safe and pretty quickly gave up due to cost. e: Because this is genuinely important, it's really cheap to get an exterior door handle and security hinges that don't allow removal of a closed door by simply popping the pins out for pretty cheap. Any closet with a relatively solid door becomes acceptable gun storage for less than ~$60. Loucks fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 16:59
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ATTENTION ANIME REMAINS A MISTAKE https://twitter.com/alexplank/status/1466432545155952644?t=69aFjd7yYPesCyMfKRA3yw&s=19 quote:The person with the Omicron variant is an adult male, is a resident of Hennepin County, and had been vaccinated. The person developed mild symptoms on Nov. 22 and sought COVID-19 testing on Nov. 24. The person’s symptoms have resolved. The person spoke with MDH case investigators and reported traveling to New York City and attended the Anime NYC 2021 convention at the Javits Center from Nov. 19-21. The person was advised to isolate from others. Minnesota epidemiologists will continue to investigate in collaboration with New York City and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:05
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So just an fyi if you can give blood in the mi/illy area they need it. Apparently they all sent all they could when they got word the shooting happened because they werent sure how much would be needed
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Dec 2, 2021 17:10
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Raerlynn posted:I became a gun owner this year. My wife's one requirement was that I purchase a locking cabinet to keep them in. I bought it from Home Depot for $150. I spend more on a range membership then I did on this thing. It bolts to the door, and it's enough to keep casual criminals at bay. It's more nuanced than that. In principle I agree that safe storage should be mandatory if you own a gun and everything I own is under lock and key in a location well hidden from the eyes of guests. Where legislating that comes into play / assigning mandatory costs to gun ownership presents a real issue. That issue being "can we use gun control laws to exclude poorer people from ownership by raising the barrier to entry even further?" Case in point when I was a quite poor graduate student I wanted to buy a cheap-rear end .22 rifle but lived in a city with really strict gun control laws. The rifle I wanted could have easily been bought at the time for $200. So, I look into buying it and there is a state-mandated firearms course for basic ownership. That's $100 and can only be done M-F 9 to 5. So, I have to spend $100 and take off work. Also, you have to travel about 15 miles outside of the city to the nearest place doing the classes and its not on any transit line, so throw in another $30 for an Uber / cab there and back plus the lost afternoon of work. Ok so then I have to take that certificate and then put in a permit application. The city states that the applications take 10-14 days to process. The internet states that the average process time is 4-6 months. So, 6 months later it gets processed and THEN I can make an appointment with the city police to get an interview and background check. This is another $100 fee and must be attended in person, again M-F 9-5 only, so another half day of work off minimum and the nearest appointment is 3 months away. So now before even being approved to buy a gun (the criteria for approval is up to the police officers discretion) I had waited 9 months, spent $230 and had to take at least 1 day off of work. Now this was only just for a rifle. If I wanted a pistol it's a mandatory shooting test at the police range (booking appointments 6 months in advance) for a $250 fee. So for a pistol I'm looking at almost $500 and a 1 to 1.5 year wait. So, then lets say the local legislature wants to mandate safe storage and decides that you need at minimum a storage device that costs another $100. Basically, it adds up quick. If the state wants to mandate training and storage but does not make them available to its poorest members, then it is inherently regressive and disenfranchises poorer owners (which I would argue is the intent anyway). All that said, many gun owners are just loving dicks about it and irresponsible and should be launched into the sun.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:16
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Poor people can't afford guns and ammo in the first place; the idea of a universal accessible right to firearms has never been true.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:17
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Yeah, that's the thing: If a gun safe is too expensive, a gun is well outside of your budget. Even small handguns run well into $150-$200 price range minimum, and ammunition is worth more than gold at this point.
CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 17:20
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Stultus Maximus posted:Poor people can't afford guns and ammo in the first place; the idea of a universal accessible right to firearms has never been true. Well if they can afford one you can just add on another arbitrary fee / cost to ensure that they cannot.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:25
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That Works posted:Case in point when I was a quite poor graduate student I wanted to buy a cheap-rear end .22 rifle but lived in a city with really strict gun control laws. The rifle I wanted could have easily been bought at the time for $200. This is a post that points out the challenges of dealing with expensive permits, wait times, and law enforcment interview and signoffs in a May Issue area. Yeah, those sound bad, but it's a distraction from what we were talking about : locking guns in a security cabinet. I don't think when the average poster says they think guns should be locked in a cabinet, that implies that they agree you should have to go do an in-person interview with a cop and wait 6+ months to buy a gun.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:29
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The obvious reasonable solution is just to require some sort of locked container for storage at minimum and demonstration of some level of training but of course at least in the United States the purpose of most gun control laws is either to disenfranchise the poor or placate anti-gun donors, rather than in European countries with high rates of gun ownership where it's more like just having a car and driver's license.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:31
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BIG HEADLINE posted:It'll be the homeless. After they've all been "corralled," they'll go after the poor and we'll see formal debtor's prisons come back. I was having a high thought about how the homeless are far more valuable as a deterrent to people actually resisting Capital. If the threat is that the alternative to society is to be homeless in America, it's going to keep a lot of people at jobs and in work conditions they hate. Protesting for change will be criminalized and so if you organize and agitate for change you'll be hit with a record and destabilized into destitution. Realistically if homelessness was a question of adequate resources then it would be solvable with fractions of the Defense budget. However the cruelty is the point; the reminder on every street corner that if you resist the way things are, you lose your home and livelihood to become one of those.
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Dec 2, 2021 17:48
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We'd vag jesus christ if he lived in this shithole
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Dec 2, 2021 17:59
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, that's the thing: If a gun safe is too expensive, a gun is well outside of your budget. Even small handguns run well into $150-$200 price range minimum, and ammunition is worth more than gold at this point. I think you’d be surprised at what you can get for half of that. I mean yeah it’s a Saturday night special but it’s still a gun. Also I use a stack on for my stuff and don’t keep anything loaded since I have two young kids. Wonderful kids, but still kids. Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 18:10
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That Works posted:It's more nuanced than that. I'm not disputing the point that it adds to the cost. I'm saying, "that's the cost of reducing gun violence in America". At some point we as a society have to draw a line and say "this is the minimum we expect you to adhere to if you want to own a weapon, cost be damned". A cheap pistol safe at Harbor Freight is literally the same price as a box of ammo. We don't have the same hand wringing about how states require carrying an insurance policy and registering a vehicle on an annual basis disproportionately impacts the poor, because we decided as a society that this was a requirement for the good of everyone.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:12
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RFC2324 posted:If your kid is taking power tools to your gun storage, you maybe just should get rid of the guns "Welp sorry little Timmy, I signed on for fatherhood I didn't sign up to lose muh freedoms, I'll give you a day to pack your things"
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Dec 2, 2021 18:13
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Raerlynn posted:We don't have the same hand wringing about how states require carrying an insurance policy and registering a vehicle on an annual basis disproportionately impacts the poor, because we decided as a society that this was a requirement for the good of everyone. Please for the love of whatever you find holy do not do the  thing. They're not remotely comparable.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:14
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Raerlynn posted:I'm not disputing the point that it adds to the cost. I'm saying, "that's the cost of reducing gun violence in America". At some point we as a society have to draw a line and say "this is the minimum we expect you to adhere to if you want to own a weapon, cost be damned". A cheap pistol safe at Harbor Freight is literally the same price as a box of ammo. Yes, we do. One of my law school profs lead the fight for changes in NJ insurance laws that moved in that direction (He was also an Assemblyman).
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Dec 2, 2021 18:16
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Raerlynn posted:I'm not disputing the point that it adds to the cost. I'm saying, "that's the cost of reducing gun violence in America". At some point we as a society have to draw a line and say "this is the minimum we expect you to adhere to if you want to own a weapon, cost be damned". A cheap pistol safe at Harbor Freight is literally the same price as a box of ammo. I went through the whole story as an example of incrementalism because its almost never a "here's a minimum no nonsense single policy" when it comes to firearm laws and as soon as one requirement is made / given then you're likely to keep getting more until it does become unaffordable (feature not bug imo). I do agree that a minimum standard of safety should be adhered to. How that is legislated / mandated / enforced is where it can get complicated. As for any of that reducing gun violence in America... much better places to discuss that than the CE thread so I'll only just state that treating root causes of crime, ie poverty / inequality would do far more than any gun specific prohibitions or regulations imo. Not tryin to be dismissive, just that gun derails can go on forever and I know the mods are probably not wanting us to chew on it for an entire day.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:23
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That Works posted:I went through the whole story as an example of incrementalism because its almost never a "here's a minimum no nonsense single policy" when it comes to firearm laws and as soon as one requirement is made / given then you're likely to keep getting more until it does become unaffordable (feature not bug imo). You responded to people saying that security cabinets are a key safety feature by talking about a totally different topic: May Issue, wait periods, law enforcement interviews, and permitting.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:24
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That Works posted:I went through the whole story as an example of incrementalism because its almost never a "here's a minimum no nonsense single policy" when it comes to firearm laws and as soon as one requirement is made / given then you're likely to keep getting more until it does become unaffordable (feature not bug imo). To be fair the slippery slope fallacy, is a fallacy.
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Dec 2, 2021 18:38
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https://twitter.com/MarkLevineNYC/status/1466449676576636930?s=20 Further adventures from the Weeb and Covid Convention. Honestly they should probably test most of the attendees for a host of other things too. Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 18:53
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Defenestrategy posted:To be fair the slippery slope fallacy, is a fallacy. Is it a fallacy when multiple local governments already have and continue to ratchet up prohibitions and fees on firearm ownership?
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Dec 2, 2021 19:01
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Can't do anything, just gotta throw up our hands in dispair
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Dec 2, 2021 19:02
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COINCEL PRO posted:Is it a fallacy when multiple local governments already have and continue to ratchet up prohibitions and fees on firearm ownership? One of the ways to use a logical fallacy is to try to find an exception to claim that this proves that the logical fallacy is not fallacious. So find a place that incrementally increased laws to use slippery slope. Find an authoritative figure who agrees with you and was right once and then use that to say we should argue from authority. etc. Safe storage has a "good" problem to have in the US reference enforcement: the 4A. Most places have little or no safe storage law. Among those that do, for private owners (not FFLs), there is zero requirement that I'm aware* of to let cops come inspect your domicile. Does that make it hard to enforce the law? Sure, but it's hard to enforce a lot of laws due to the 4A and 5A, which is a good problem for Americans to have. Texas has a safe storage law, as an example, though not strict at all. The safe storage law only applies to access to kids 17 and under, absolves the owner of a crime if the kid committed a crime to get the gun (breaking and entering, for example), or if the kid gains access in defense of home/self/others (kid smashes through a door to fend off an attacker). The Texas law also only applies if the firearm is "readily dischargeable," which means with ammo loaded. So an unloaded gun can still be just be left out, as long as the ammunition is all of 1 inch away from the gun. A gun may be stored loaded if it is "secure" as defined in the law from a child. Is Texas deterring a terrorist mastermind with this? Hell no, but they are telling parents that leaving a loaded gun in reach of a minor is a Class C misdemeanor if the minor gains access to the weapon, and it becomes Class A if the minor then fires a shot and injures/kills someone, aside from lawful defense. *maybe some city or locale in the USA exists where this is not the case, but I've never heard of it. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 19:16
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Tune in if you want to see Mutti saying goodbye. ...also if you like Germans marching with torches https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAT-C86Cv9Y
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Dec 2, 2021 19:31
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Tune in if you want to see Mutti saying goodbye. Well you need something to light all those coal facilities that dingbat helped create, because she was a chicken little about nuclear power.
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Dec 2, 2021 19:43
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I leave my garand lying out in the open and just check my kids thumb every morning to see if he’s been loving with it.
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Dec 2, 2021 19:44
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Duzzy Funlop posted:Tune in if you want to see Mutti saying goodbye. She's sitting there with a look I've come to know well from 67+ year old women. "I'm old and I'm COLD." I'm also very glad that they disabled comments and live chat as even though I don't speak German, some things unfortunately don't need translation. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Dec 2, 2021 |
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Dec 2, 2021 19:49
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MazelTovCocktail posted:Well you need something to light all those coal facilities that dingbat helped create, because she was a chicken little about nuclear power. I don't think you quite comprehend the almost universal NIMBY-energy in this dumb country after Fukushima
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Dec 2, 2021 19:53
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MazelTovCocktail posted:I think you’d be surprised at what you can get for half of that. I mean yeah it’s a Saturday night special but it’s still a gun. But the average guns used in shoots are not a Saturday night special. Nearly all these shootings are larger hand guns and rifles. So no, if you are buying any of the weapons we've seen used in shootings, you can afford a safe.
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Dec 2, 2021 19:54
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https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/1466480313966731270?t=vYS7fu54t5HGuS5O046vEQ&s=19 Nothing like a good DEATH VARIANT PANIC PANIC to get people to check their cards and go "oh hey, it's been 6 months!". Also the weeb that got sick had symptoms on the 22nd, tested on the 24th, and is already fine. Weeb got his booster in early November, so could've been rough!
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Dec 2, 2021 19:56
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facialimpediment posted:Nothing like a good DEATH VARIANT PANIC PANIC to get people to check their cards and go "oh hey, it's been 6 months!" It's good in that more vaccinated/boosted people is definitely desireable, but as far as I've seen all the official guidance has been "get boosted!" and not "wear an effective mask!" (i.e., N95 or better). The vaccines are very good, but but still demonstrably leaky. One would think that facing a new variant with as yet unknown properties public health officials doing their jobs would recommend increased protective measures. I've seen the blue checks insisting that it's "mild," but last I checked that came from made-up data attributed to Israel, which cannot possibly exist yet given how new this thing is. e: I'm boosted fwiw, so miss me with "anti-vax!" accusations on the off chance that someone is offended by this. It's not meant that way.
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Dec 2, 2021 20:05
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There is very, very little hard data on Omicron yet, which isn't really surprising given how new it is. I've been keeping a close eye out to get even a preliminary idea of what we might be up against this time, and so far, nuffink. There was an OP by one of the saffa doctors that detected it, but it was mostly railing against the travel bans and anecdotes about how the patients all seemed to be pretty mild cases. If anyone's seen anything I haven't, please let me know!
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Dec 2, 2021 20:14
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Loucks posted:It's good in that more vaccinated/boosted people is definitely desireable, but as far as I've seen all the official guidance has been "get boosted!" and not "wear an effective mask!" (i.e., N95 or better). The vaccines are very good, but but still demonstrably leaky. One would think that facing a new variant with as yet unknown properties public health officials doing their jobs would recommend increased protective measures. The CDC director points to masks as the single most effective thing a person can do to prevent initial infection. In a 2-stage approach, you try to prevent infection (multiple means, with masks being top-tier) and then you try to mitigate impact if infected (vaccines). https://twitter.com/CDCDirector/status/1456645731691925518?s=20 The CDC has pointed out that reopening schools with a mask mandate is several times safer than reopening schools with leaving masking up to individuals: https://twitter.com/DeeGilhawley/status/1466171177047572485?s=20 https://twitter.com/handgunYoga/status/1465702970159349763?s=20 The federal facilities I work in require masks across the board, regardless of vaccination status. Local rules are more lower case liberal. The CDC messaging has not been great throughout this pandemic. And the CDC leadership are getting pummeled from the right for pitching the idea that vaccines could potentially lead to less mask requirements. And they've done navel-gazing about whether people won't bother to get vaccinated if they're told to mask anyway, and blah blah, they should just tell everyone to do all of the above! But yes, the CDC recommends masks. Pretty unequivocally.
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Dec 2, 2021 20:18
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I realize I live in a very blue area, but mask usage has been constant since last year or so. You've certainly seen a slowly increasing number of people not wear them or wear them half assed, but most people still seem to wear them even when it's not necessary. Personally the only time I don't wear mine in public is if I'm at an outdoor venue. Which is half true, because I'll still put it on if I'm eating outside somewhere whenever I'm interacting with wait staff.
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Dec 2, 2021 20:25
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