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If I'm in a group, I usually just spend a lot of time throwing people until the crowd thins out, because from what I remember, you have invincibility frames while throwing.
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Jan 4, 2022 03:55
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And depending on the throw, you can also hit/damage/down other enemies.
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Jan 4, 2022 04:11
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also, Konoko runs faster than most opponents (esp when dashing) and iirc rolling/dodging gives you invincibility frames, so you can do the hit-and-run thing for a bit to thin the group out and dodge/darksouls-roll your way out of any hairy "i am surrounded"-type situations
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Jan 4, 2022 10:57
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berryjon posted:And depending on the throw, you can also hit/damage/down other enemies. Oh, that's a neat detail. And the crrrunch of the neck lariat always makes me surprised to see anyone get up again after suffering it...
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Jan 4, 2022 12:01
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 I said it in the video, and I'll say it here. This is my favorite level in the whole game. It has good pacing, an actually challenging boss fight at the end when I don't get stupidly lucky. The terrain is varied and interesting even as it's not that divergent. That you keep going up and up and up lends itself to the low-key tenseness of the level. That this is the fastest Start-To-Mercury Bow in the game has nothing to do with it, I'm sure. This level introduces the worst combat move in the game, one that I am not alone in deriding as the worst option in the game. What is it, you ask? Well, it's her Willow Kick. This is the result of her going K + K + (beat)(F+K). Which is to say that she will kick twice, and you either screw up your timing resetting the combo, or you perform a more normal K+K+K combo. But, if by the grace of some random go, you pull it off, Konoko will do a quick back-flip, which is her 'Anti-Air' move. Do I really need to tell you how having such a move at the end of a combo is useless? If it was an independent move, like her spin-kick, which is L/R + (F+K), it would be a nice option to have. Maybe B+F+K? But instead, we got what we got, and I have yet to find a person who will defend it. I don't expect any of you to throw yourselves into the fire to try. No thank you. This level is also our first introduction to Ninjas as regular enemies, and they don't disappoint. I still hate them, but their combat style, combined with the sometimes unforgiving environment and all the bottomless pits you encounter make each Ninja something to worry about. That second one though, ready to ambush you for grabbing the Shield? He can ruin your day with just a single hit to know you off the ledge. Like what happened at 2:15! Of course, Ninjas also have the lowest health of any enemies in the game, so once you catch them, it's game over for them. But going back to the environment, this is the only level with an active environmental effect. The rain that comes and goes through the level is, as far as I can tell, rendered in the game engine for as I watch the video again while writing this, I can see the rain streaks pas in front of the camera and behind Konoko while at the same time, pass in front of her. I just wish the sound design included a low-key rain backdrop to the whole thing. Nothing serious, but it would have been neat. I dunno, I think I was spoiled by Urban Chaos and how it handled things like leaves and rain while in motion. But on the other hand, most of this game's environments are indoors to one degree or another. So it may have been a technical limitation where they couldn't section off the rain into one area or not another, and had to have it either everywhere or nowhere. I mean, can you imagine the Airport level if there was rain inside the Terminal buildings? I can't. So, let's talk Mukade. Mukade is another cybernetically augmented super-soldier for the Syndicate, on the same level as Barabus. In fact, he reports to Muro just as Barabus did, and him dying here leaves Muro without a proper lieutenant to delegate to. In terms of combat, he's like all the other Ninja, a slippery little bastard that with duck, dodge and weave around your attacks while pummeling you in return. I get ridiculously super lucky in my fight with him, make no mistake about that. I was quite ready to try, try and try again to beat him, but managed on my first go during the recording run. Anyway, time to talk spoilers about his character, and why Konoko is acing so weird. You see, Mukade has a Daoden Chrysalis, and it's the reason he's been able to survive the cybernetics. After the Syndicate got their hands on Muro and the research, they started to invest in that research, just without Doctors Hasegawa or Kerr, so they had to start from the notes and with experiments to figure out what the hell they were doing. Muro and Konoko both have full-power 'Prime' Symbiotes, while Mukade has one of the first Second Generation symbiotes. Not as powerful in general, but good enough for what the Syndicate wanted. While he was a little kill-crazy, that was mostly seen as an upside by his superiors, who were content to have an augmented assassin of his caliber on the payroll, as well as acting as a proof of concept for later revisions and generations of the Symbiote. We actually see Third generation symbiotes in some enemies. If someone busts out a supermove and they're glowing a little? They have one. Like the Red Furies and their Ten Shadow Punch for example. Anyway, what Mukade is getting at here with his little spiel is that for some strange, vaguely defined reason that might as well be 'Anime!' for all I know, Symbiotes can 'resonate' in the presence of each other, letting the person know that another symbiote is nearby. This is more pronounced in Muro, who knew that there was a "Special Agent" coming that Barabus might not be able to beat, and Mukade, who's just plain crazy. Konoko, because of her delayed and more curated development, had no idea what she was feeling. In a way, it's like the 'Immortal Sense' from Highlander: The Series. That vague premonition that someone is there, but as this is the first time Konoko has felt it, she doesn't know how to deal/process/ignore it and it bothers her. That this happens with Mukade and her chase of him across the city only made it worse. She's internalized the sensation as 'prey'. And she reacts accordingly. But guess what? Barabus never had one! See you next time, with the one level that really did a number on the game's engine.
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Jan 5, 2022 13:10
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The next level has some of my favorite fights.
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Jan 5, 2022 16:00
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 Ah, the level of our dreams. Or in this case, Konoko's nightmare. As should have been obvious from start to finish, this entire thing is in side Konoko's head as the events of the past few days catch up to her, starting with her finally getting some answers to questions she never thought to ask. Who were her parents? How did they die and she became a ward of the state? And from there, things only get worse. She's already not in the best mental state right now, and finding out that her mother died because she did something stupid, something that caused her father to spiral out of control, seeking out the aid of the one person left in the world that he - that Konoko herself could trust. We're not yet to the McGuffin of the story, that's next level. What we do have is a vital piece of worldbuilding going on in the opening scene. The cities are safe, for a given definition of safe. Yes, criminals, low resolution TVs, bad food, and even more criminals await you, but it's better than the alternative. Outside the cities, outside the range of the atmosphere processors, the biosphere has gone mad. These so-called "nature preserves" are the places that the World Government can't or won't try to save, to reclaim or otherwise try to stop. While the manual makes it clear that the government isn't doing 100% to try and save the world, they know that they can't leave these problems alone either. Also, I was in Scouts. People taking a hike with bare legs into places they have no idea what's there? Yeah, that's dumb. Getting scratched was inevitable. Getting dead...? That's tragic. As for the dream / nightmare itself? Well, I mean, I may be a Philosophy Major, but even I know when random things happen because it's a goddamned dream and you shouldn't take such things seriously. So I'm not. The biggest thing here is her lack-of interactions with Shinatama. Konoko, in her nightmares, is always chasing after her, never catching up, and fearful that she will be harmed when she's out of reach. You know, like what actually happened. Look, I'm not trying to make light of anyone's real problems. I am pointing out that any in-depth analysis of a dream level in a video game is doomed to fail because it's just a way for the writer/level designer to drop the 'sub' from Subtext and call it 'profound' or 'deep'. Konoko is having a nightmare about all the bad things that have happened to her in the past week, and that's normal. Not a lot of games touch on the mental toll that comes from being the protagonist in these sorts of situations, And while this game isn't the best suited to it, it's telling that how the level shifts and changes with time it just seems.... wrong. The three Boss Fights are probably the really interesting part. We start with Muro, transitioning from the real-world lab (where is it? Why is it like that?!?!) into the dream. Here, we come face to face with her most obvious enemy, the one she can most easily hate and fear in the same breath. The fight against him is in a small, cramped space, and there is no light. Muro sucks all the light out of the room once you start fighting him, and from there, things only get worse. Griffin is her next enemy, representing, in a way, her authority issues. And he's not alone, for Konoko perceives herself as being outnumbered and alone in the TCTF. She's an outsider in her own way, and Griffin treated her just differently enough that it may have rubbed off on other Agents. The lines he says in her nightmare show what she things Griffin thinks of her. A failure. That she could have done better, been better. That maybe he would have trusted her with the truth, and he would have trusted her to save Shinatama and she wouldn't have failed her either? If Muro is the obvious focus of her failings, Griffin represents the larger scope of her problems. The things she can't fix. Then there's Konoko. The real Boss Fight. In the end, the only thing Konoko can really blame for her failings, for her faults and her gently caress-ups is herself. She's the one who chose to defy orders, she's the one that pushed just far enough to cause Muro to go after Shinatama in the first place. In the end, she can blame Muro and Griffin all she wants, but the one who is at Fault is herself. That, and Konoko is Basically a Red Fury++, which makes her the best fight in the goddamned game, bar none. I just wish it wasn't at the end of a brutal slog of a level. The high intensity combat, the frikken' invisible ninjas, and the lack of health can really back you into a corner where you don't have the resources to survive a fight. And that means restarting the level fresh. But man, getting to punch your inner demons in the face never gets old. By the by though, does anyone know what this means? It's in the Lab section of the level, and I don't speak/read that language. 
berryjon fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 9, 2022 13:05
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I remember getting a fair amount of use out of that homing screamer gun, mostly because you could toss it around a corner or through a door, and let it take care of enemies that had killed you in a previous attempt. I certainly don't think it's a bad gun, but it does lend itself to a fairly boring playstyle. I will never stop being annoyed at you using hypos in the middle of a fight and immediately getting all the potential healing punched out of you.  That first attempt at the Griffin fight, I am damned certain you were trying to grab that hypo on the ground while being punched by all three goons!
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Jan 9, 2022 17:48
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I will never stop being annoyed at you using hypos in the middle of a fight and immediately getting all the potential healing punched out of you. Hey, I called myself out on my bad behavior back in an early level, so you're not the only one who thinks that!
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Jan 10, 2022 00:56
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I could have sworn there was a fight in there against a single huge TCTF grunt and the throw animations not lining up at all was hilarious. Maybe I'm just remembering something that happened when I was playing with the minime cheat. 
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Jan 10, 2022 02:13
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berryjon posted:By the by though, does anyone know what this means? It's in the Lab section of the level, and I don't speak/read that language. This German thread from 2005 says it's 李溶鎮 沈皚瀛 朱仲英 (found this by googling the last three which are the most easily readable) but they don't really know what to make of it other than they appear to be Chinese names.
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Jan 10, 2022 14:03
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 So, where to begin, where to begin? There's a lot dropped on us with this level, and while it would be tempting to explain the biggest thing, in the end, I think I'll start with the level layout. The Science Prison is a very straightforward level. We advance down the middle, turn left to backtrack along the left side of the building, pass under the first room to the right side, then advance again towards the back to reach the end goal. The vertical aspects to the level design don't really do much to hide that simple fact. It reminds me a lot of the layout of the second level, where I lambasted it for poor use of space. However, unlike that one, which committed the sin of returning to the start point, this level keeps us going forward into new areas. I like that, really. And that each area is new and has a different aesthetic to it, from the cold clinical Cryochamber rooms, to the medical labs to the biohazard disposal room. This chance in scenery helps the level, rather than being drab office space. The lasers, despite what you may think from my commentary, are not all that bad. Thankfully, this game doesn't abuse them, nor the alarm consoles. It's refreshing when the game treats the enemy actors as the real threat, and not the environmental hazards. Speaking of the environment, how many times did people play this game before they realized that there were actual people in the cryopods? I know I missed them on my first playthrough all those decades ago. I was trained by the game to ignore the environment unless it was 'active', as everything else wasn't worth looking at. It was only on my second go that I finally noticed them. I mean, hell, we're told at the start of the level that the Doctor is touring the Pod Wing. What sort of pods are there? Well, now we know. Of course, given that Kerr has the equipment to monitor and analyze the Chrysalis just standing by, I now have to wonder - how many of these people are the victims of experiments gone wrong? And so we come to the elephant in the room, and the MacGuffin of the game. What is the Daoden Chrysalis? Kerr's description is wrong, or rather it's incomplete so that the audience and Konoko can process it. The Chrysalis has its roots in the death of Jamie Kerr, and the rapidly mutating plant/toxin/infection that Doctor Hasegawa couldn't fight. What he saw was that the outside world was a rapidly changing, rapidly mutating death world, one that was one blown Processor away from pushing humanity over the brink. And so, if you can't fight them, join them. The Chrysalis is, as Kerr said, derived from the host organism. What he didn't tell Konoko, because it wasn't relevant, was that there are several factors that can help determine the effectiveness of the Chrysalis. First, is how in-tune it is with the host. For Konoko and Muro, their symbiotic organisms were effectively custom made for the both of them by their father, ensuring that the Chrysalis was as optimized as possible for the two of them. In addition, the younger you are when you get it, the longer it has to work, and the more the body grows as it grows up, the more the Chrysalis grows with it. These are Prime Symbiotes, and are the best you can get, albeit the ones with the most effort and resources put into making them. In theory, both the Syndicate and the TCTF can make more Primes, but the time involved is just too much. They are both on the clock, so to speak. The next step down are Secondaries. These, we have seen in Mukade, the Super Ninja from two levels ago. These Second Generation symbiotes are not as finely tuned to their host as the Primes, but they tend to be given to adults and as such, don't bond as well or develop with the host over time. There's a limit to how much they can do, and it can be quickly reached. The last type are the mass produced versions. Not really tuned, they are there to basically act as a souped up immune system with minor regenerative powers. The Syndicate is making these as fast as they can, and whenever you see an enemy glow with power, it's because they have one of these and are pushing themselves to the limit for something Konoko can roll her shoulders and pull out without effort at all. But what is it? What does it do? Well, I'm no Doc Roanoke (you should watch his channel by the way, he's an actual microbiologist who breaks down how monsters in video games and movies would work in reality, and how they couldn't), but I can tell you a few things from the game and from comments made on old forums back in the early 2000's. The Chrysalis acts as a sort of macro-scale Stem Cell generator. As the body is damaged either through external forces or environmental pressures, the Chrysalis takes in the information that the body is sending about the damage in question, and then starts to produce replacement parts that are customized to respond against that sort of damage. So, Konoko breathes bad air? Her lungs are changed to better react to the changing atmosphere. She gets injured in training? Her skin gets tougher, her muscles stronger and her bones more resilient. Bleeding? Faster blood production from the marrow and faster clotting and healing in general. All this, based on the sheer speed of the thing that killed Jamie Kerr. But the effects are cumulative. The Chrysalis remembers what has caused harm before, and when new harm comes, it keeps the old stuff in play, like how our immune system doesn't forget how to fight off one thing when something else comes into play. So, the younger you are when you are implanted, the longer and more stress the body undergoes, allowing for the Chrysalis time and experience to better itself and the host in a mutual survival advantage. You know what this reminds me of? I went into this LP with the intent of making no reference to Stratfyre's old LP of it, save to recognize that it exists and that he fights with a different style than I do. However, there is one thing that I feel I think he missed in his sass of Konoko and her inspirations for her design and actions. You see, she's also Nausicaä, in that she's adapt(ing) to the post-apocalypse world in which that which we know as humanity is doomed. Konoko, from a comment later in the game, was implanted with her custom Chrysalis at age 7. She was rescued by Kerr and taken in by the state as a Ward at age 3 according to the manual, but her current age isn't known. That means that Kerr had four years to customize her Chrysalis before Griffin forced the implanting, only to regret it later on. But by then, it was too late. She had already bonded with her symbiote far more effectively than anyone could have foreseen, and removal was no longer an option. Faced down with a multitude of bad choices, Griffin ordered the creation of Shinatama, an SLD based on Konoko to better monitor her progress. The thing is, the Chrysalis is hilariously immature as a technology, and no one, not even Doctor Hasegawa, has any clue how far the Chrysalis will change or mutate its host in order to survive. Kerr's comment that Konoko will never really change, that she will always be true to herself? Wishful thinking. That her Chrysalis has gone far beyond his expectations and predictions is something Kerr never really accounted for. At this point, all he could do is hope and pray that Konoko retains enough of her mental self that she doesn't go down the path Muro is gleefully dancing along. So, I can now say in non-spoilers what I said long ago about the BEST GUN. The Mercury Bow was developed specifically to try and kill people with the Chrysalis. The combination of high-velocity kinetic impact, cryogenic damage - something the TCTF knows can slow down the healing process as it's still organic in nature - and the heavy metal poisoning from the slug of mercury was all intended to overload the Chrysalis and prevent it from healing the host. Or at least slowing them down long enough for proper restraints or a more permanent solution could be applied. That's why Kerr (stupidly) threw himself into the way of the shot. He knew that this was the only weapon capable of practically harming Konoko, and he was still trying to protect her, to the last. His emotional response was one of the things he had in common with Konoko, something that connected them together. Or I would say that if this was literally the only level in which the two spoke to each other. Which is why I wanted to see them interact before Konoko went off to rescue Shinatama. To help establish their relationship and to emphasize this one a bit more or better. Konoko's escape plan was risky, even for her. By dumping herself into the acid vats, and avoiding the mechanical grinders, she was basically gambling that the Chrysalis would react to the extremely strong acid and protect her by growing new skin that could resist it. All she would have to do, would be to close her eyes, plug her ears and nose, and hold her breath for who knows how long. I can't imagine how that must have felt. After all, what's a little pain in the body compared to the pain of knowing that everyone who ever cared for you is dead? And if she's going to have revenge, there's one person at the top of the list, above even her Brother. Griffin. berryjon fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 12, 2022 13:14
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Sewage outflow's probably in the middle of a "nature preserve" I doubt they can pay a TCTF agent enough to go in there and wait indefinitely.
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Jan 12, 2022 20:41
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"Science prison"? Really, I don't think you could work somewhere that has "science prisons" and not be constantly asking if you youself are actually one of the baddies. This level does a reasonable job of the plot reveal and some high intensity fight situations, and the physical design is decent too - but that picture at the end level transition really feels problematic at best. I wonder whether it comes from the same person who was responsible for the Shinatama creepiness. [edit]This reveal also neatly lays down a reason/excuse for a good old-fashioned multistage boss who taunts you that you haven't seen his final form yet 
Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jan 14, 2022 |
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Jan 14, 2022 07:09
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 I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This is an example of a reused level done right. Most games, when they reuse a full level, will barely make any changes to it. Or worse yet, make just enough in the name of making it seem different that that the players can smell a rat. The TCTF headquarters avoids that fate through three separate and distinct changes that make it less a blatant reuse of assets, and more of a fresh level. The first and most important is that this is level 13. The last time we were here was level 6. That's half a game away, and because of that distance, the players don't have the reused level thrown right into their faces. There's enough between then and now to wear down the player's knowledge of the level, so when you get back to it, it seems, for a moment, like it's new. The second reason is that your goals are vastly different. Take, for example, my cited examples from the next game from Bungie - Halo. Assault on the Control Room is the way into a place, while Two Betrayals the reverse. However, in this game, what we're doing and why we're doing it are two vastly different motivations. The mindset of the player is different. In the first, it's a vain race against time, that perhaps you could reach Shinatama in time, but instead we fail at that, but are given the catharsis of killing Barabus instead. On this side of the game, we have a metaphorically slower and methodical descent through the level, hunting Griffin in his underground lair. The last reason is the enemies. Last time, we fought the Syndicate, while the TCTF are our allies. Now, there's no Syndicate, and no allies save the Mercury Bow in our hands. There's no getting around that fact that we're attacking the TCTF directly now. Beforehand, you could make the justification that Konoko was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got hit from both sides at the State Building, or that the attempt to infiltrate the Science Prison was a case of dealing with a known issue in which the TCTF was wrong. But this? This is her taking the fight to the TCTF, and hoping to execute a decapitation strike on them. Now, the missing conversation. Allow me to transcribe it for you:  Konoko, please don't hurt me. They made me do it, I swear. Do what? I knew she was more than an android, to you at least... What did you do? Griffin wanted something to use against you... Get out of my sight. Now!The first civilian is foreshadowing the final fight. How audacious. So... the Deadly Brain, Shinatama Version. The first and third stages aren't difficult, but as I said in the video, it's that start to the second stage that's the real trap. That one laser that moves up and down the middle of the sector is in your blind spot while interacting with the console, or it's right behind you. Timing it so that you're not caught by it while doing your thing is important. But also... what the gently caress Griffin? I swear, what made you think that this was even a remotely good idea? She killed one of these things less than two weeks ago, and you think trotting out the savaged and exploded corpse of Shinatama would in any way cause her to back down? First time I played this game, I wasn't satisfied with shooting Griffin with the pistol, I wanted to use the Bow instead, and wound up accidentally triggering the peaceful resolution. But trust me, first time? I wanted him dead. I'm going to talk about the nature of the choice when I show off what happens when you go the other route, as it's a short video. And I'm not feeling it right now. But I can tell you this. The level is long. It's hard. And by the end of it, just shooting him sounds more and more like the best choice. So I will ask this of you, the people watching this video and this LP. Shoot Griffin or Don't Shoot? berryjon fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jan 30, 2022 |
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Jan 16, 2022 16:08
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This sort of rear end in a top hat LOVES to play the victim card, don't let him be a martyr.
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Jan 16, 2022 16:53
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The problem is guessing how the game will react. Knowing late 90s morality systems, is killing Griffin going to label Konoko as an evil turbo-murderer and lock her out of any good endings?
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Jan 16, 2022 17:02
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Loxbourne posted:The problem is guessing how the game will react. Knowing late 90s morality systems, is killing Griffin going to label Konoko as an evil turbo-murderer and lock her out of any good endings? I'll talk about it more when it's time, but due to the way the save system in this game 'works', you can replay the Deadly Brain puzzle, kill/not kill Griffin, then reload a future checkpoint and the global variable of griffin_in_hell (not really, but you get the idea) is switched, meaning that the future checkpoint will act as though he was always dead/not dead.
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Jan 16, 2022 17:17
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i say waste the fucker sic semper tyrannis and all that
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Jan 16, 2022 17:19
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I always spared Griffin in my playthroughs because, at the time, I wasn't as invested in Konoko's emotional state going through the story. Also, computer games, anime, and other influences had conditioned me to always show mercy. Well, even now, we might as well show a modicum of humanity so I say we spare the old man.
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Jan 16, 2022 20:19
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Yeah, when I first played I took the “good” option and spared him but playing back through as an adult I’m really not seeing why Konoko would do that. Like, both on a personal level and a larger societal level this guy is just terrible. He is WAY too excited about “making the tough decisions” (to murder the children he is responsible for).
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Jan 16, 2022 20:49
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It's pretty clear that Griffin thought that Konoko was going to be this unstoppable killing machine that was going to murder him, and spent a whole lot of career-ending resources to mitigate that risk. So if you just let him go, it proves to himself and his superiors that his judgement is severely compromised. Imagine. Having an entire elevator and this huge contraption, just for your office, so that you could escape if Konoko shows up, and repurposing an android to be a deadly brain, only to shoot it dead when your directives fail to control it, is not a good look.
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Jan 16, 2022 21:10
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sb hermit posted:It's pretty clear that Griffin thought that Konoko was going to be this unstoppable killing machine that was going to murder him, and spent a whole lot of career-ending resources to mitigate that risk. So if you just let him go, it proves to himself and his superiors that his judgement is severely compromised. I have a feeling it wouldn't really matter, dead or alive, he would just be a fall guy for the rest of the TCTF's crime in addition to his own. If his bosses didn't shoot him themselves and then blamed it on you. But really for me it comes down to, have you been killing the minions? Then why treat the mastermind any different, so I'd suggest giving him some acute mercury poisoning.
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Jan 16, 2022 21:24
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Sure, you did kill the minions, but in situations in which a reasonably less lethal resolution was unavailable, now you get to make the hard man who makes the hard decisions (while hard) go on trial and have to go through his backlog and justify things, without the comfort of having his boot on the faces of those he's done those things to, and you even get to watch.
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Jan 17, 2022 01:16
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Wow, that was probably the best level so far. The way the fights were set up was really good. I know some portion of that is effort on your part, but so many of the throws were so cool this time. The environment just felt better. Given the option in a video game, though, I'll never not throw someone down some stairs, so maybe I'm biased. Also, maybe I've just lost faith in justice systems or something, but I'm pretty firmly on the side of killing Griffin. Neutralize the threat. The man's not only TCTF black ops, he's doing things like repurposing your friend's corpse against you. He can't be trusted. I honestly expected him to start a brawl after telling Konoko she could walk away, though, so my instincts are off.
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Jan 17, 2022 01:32
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The state of the justice system doesn't really matter in his case, he's in hot water with his bosses already and this will absolutely seal the deal, worst case scenario, he's gonna be the fuse for this entire shitshow and even if it manages to remain out of public eyes, he's gonna be the fuse for the waste of resources and loss of assets. It's also more fun if he's alive and gets to deal with being proven wrong.
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Jan 17, 2022 02:35
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If you kill the minions who are just following orders, you should 100% kill the guy giving those orders. Don't treat him specially just because he has a name and a portrait. Moreover, at this point all of Konoko's dialog has been reinforcing that she's on the warpath. Having her pull an about-face right after seeing her friend/sister get gunned down feels wildly out of character for her.
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Jan 17, 2022 03:44
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Dav posted:Yeah, when I first played I took the “good” option and spared him but playing back through as an adult I’m really not seeing why Konoko would do that. Like, both on a personal level and a larger societal level this guy is just terrible. He is WAY too excited about “making the tough decisions” (to murder the children he is responsible for). Basically this; when I played this back in the aughts I let Griffin go simply due to video game conditioning about good and evil, but with the distance of years, god drat, what a piece of poo poo. E: Also, in regards to the in game music that got brought up in episode 12, the actual full songs are pretty okay, albeit very late 90's electronica, it's just that you only ever hear tiny clips of said music playing on loop in the actual game itself. e.g. the repeating loop for part of this (and many other levels) is part of a theme called Konoko Chase, but since it's basically just looping the part from about 1:36 to to 1:50 it ends up getting very tedious. MShadowy fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jan 17, 2022 |
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Jan 17, 2022 04:36
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Well, I agree that the game is more than likely to screw us over later on if we kill Griffin, probably by deciding that this action makes Konoko a bad/violent person and affecting how her symbiote evolves. On the other hand, saying that Griffin refuses to take responsibility for his own actions is the understatement of the century. He's done an escalating chain of horrific actions with zero remorse, starting with weaponising Konoko - he really doesn't treat her as a sentient being, let alone human. This results in him arranging the murders of Shinatama and Kerr, and trying to have us assassinated to save his career / cover his tracks. Sure, Kerr's death was technically an accident, but it could have been avoided if he'd treated Konoko as a person and tried to talk with her, instead of telling everyone to shoot her on sight. And that's not even mentioning the ridiculously sick poo poo that just happened with Shinatama. He knows that the deaths are his fault and he doesn't give a drat, as evidenced by how he's more than happy to throw half the TCTF into the meatgrinder that is the 3-punch combo. And for what? To keep his cushy govermnent job and pension? He can't even say anymore that it's to defend against Muro and the Syndicate, because as I just mentioned he's been very busy manipulating his army to fight his superweapon instead of the Bad Guys. Snap the bastard's neck and don't look back. Crazy Achmed fucked around with this message at 11:17 on Jan 17, 2022 |
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Jan 17, 2022 11:14
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It's interesting to, for once, have a game plot where the antagonists aren't a monolithic evil organisation. We still have the Syndicate filling this slot of course, but the TCTF actually seem unimpressed by Griffin and intend to hang him out to dry. A pity they can't offer Konoko amnesty to de-escalate the situation, but the game needs enemies to fight.
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Jan 17, 2022 11:21
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MShadowy posted:Basically this; when I played this back in the aughts I let Griffin go simply due to video game conditioning about good and evil, but with the distance of years, god drat, what a piece of poo poo. Loxbourne posted:A pity they can't offer Konoko amnesty to de-escalate the situation, but the game needs enemies to fight. The classic problem with video game good/evil choices is that most games, just like this one, only ever give you the option of violence. That's the verb you have. You can do more or less of it, but you have countless deaths/trauma on your hands and then you're asked to treat someone, often the most evil piece of poo poo, as an impossibly precious human life that's obviously inviolate. Because suddenly you have the option to.
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Jan 18, 2022 02:41
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propatriamori posted:The classic problem with video game good/evil choices is that most games, just like this one, only ever give you the option of violence. That's the verb you have. Now I'm thinking of an alternate take on the State Building HQ where Konoko is locked to 'stroll' speed, and spends her time in the first building talking to people to figure out where she needs to go. No violence, just her awkwardly asking "Hey, where's the secret files about my family? Oh? Me? Terrorist? Never! Would anyone evil like that walk in here before closing and ask politely?" Only once she gets into the basement and starts to get her files does she find out about Mukade, and then Violence Ensues.
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Jan 18, 2022 03:04
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berryjon posted:Now I'm thinking of an alternate take on the State Building HQ where Konoko is locked to 'stroll' speed, and spends her time in the first building talking to people to figure out where she needs to go. No violence, just her awkwardly asking "Hey, where's the secret files about my family? Oh? Me? Terrorist? Never! Would anyone evil like that walk in here before closing and ask politely?" Only once she gets into the basement and starts to get her files does she find out about Mukade, and then Violence Ensues. If this game ever gets a remake, it clearly needs to be in the vein of the newer Deus Ex titles but with emphasis on melee rather than ranged combat.
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Jan 18, 2022 06:33
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 And so we reach the end. But first, the level itself. I think that the mountain facility shows one of the weaknesses of the game's engine and design; that being very sectional. There's the Entrance section, where we start outside, followed by the Garage, then the Server Chambers, then the final Boss Fight. The opening area is pretty wide open, and that is to your detriment. I don't show it off in the video, but there's really nothing out here. You're at the mercy of all the Snipers, and if you don't know what you're doing and you stand still, they're going to ruin your day. Your best bet is to do what I did, grab the Phase cloak and rush the entrance. Oddly enough, every enemy outside the actual facility itself is Blue Tier, Strikers and Elites. Of course, this doesn't apply to the Snipers, as they only have one tier - Mercury Bow. But once we get inside, it's Reds all the way through. Oh, the Hypo I mentioned in the video is inside the first hut, the one to your right when you start the level. The second section is the garage, and here the pace of the level slows down considerably as you have to backtrack back and forth across the upper level before allowing access to the main floor. Of note, the path that the truck comes down on (Hugh Jass? Seriously?) leads back to the two large entryways that I passed by on the way in. If you run up them, you will find nothing, just the other side of the doors, and the ability to clip the camera through to see outside. This section itself is pretty tight, and if anything, it's the last fight that's a problem. If you're anywhere near prepared, having the enemies that jump out of the truck all coming running right to you - including the driver! - isn't interesting. What could have been done better here would be to get to the door itself, and Konoko to be annoyed that she can't get through it or the ones on the upper floor. She expresses herself, perhaps by punching the door and denting it to help show off her improved strength, and that's when the BGI truck arrives. If she can punch a dent, then the truck is just a larger, faster punch, right? That way, Konoko is already at ground level with the enemies that spawn, and they don't all obligingly file their way up a set of stairs to you and into your waiting gun. Speaking of being downstairs, I blew out one of the windows, and jumped down onto a trailer to minimize the damage and checked out that deactivated console.  Yep, it opens the stairs back upstairs, but doing this out of order spawns in some Blue Tier enemies in the stairwells to come and fight you. The third section, after she knocks, is a very simple one, though it too is really divided into two parts itself. First is the triple unlock where you are told Muro's Plan, then the long ascent to the final console and destiny. It's actually very straight forward. I only make it look confusing because I'm paranoid I'm missing something. So let be take a break for a moment here and talk about Muro's Plan. On one hand, it's been properly foreshadowed this whole game, but on the other hand, having it spelled out like this makes it lose some of its punch. To summarize, Muro will use the previously established modifications to the Atmospheric Processors to either reverse or corrupt them, causing them to add pollutants to the atmosphere, rather than remove them. While this is happening, he will be offering third-tier Daoden Symbiotes to those who are willing to pay any price for a chance at health, effectively holding the world hostage and gaining a huge powerbase at the same time. What I think people miss in the lack of context is that this is a Regional plan. Not a Global one. Muro, much like Griffin, isn't a power player in their respective organizations. They have authority disproportionate to their position, but both of them have superiors, and have a limit to their mandate. Muro's operation is, I suspect, him leveraging himself to the global scale. You see, the facility we're at is a control node for the global Processing centers. But it's not the only such location, and it's not the final control center either. It's regional. And Muro's grand plan isn't going to directly affect the whole world. Have knock-on effects? Sure. But it's his and his alone. What Konoko does is rather than have a controlled escalation in the contamination, is instead just blowing the whole thing at once. A single sudden shock to the system, damaging the machines in the process is, in her view, the better option than letting Muro's plan come to fruition. She knows that no matter what she does at this point, people are going to die, so why not try to minimize that number? Here's the thing, Muro's plan requires responses that we don't see. I suggested back in level 7 that Muro brought unnecessary attention onto the Atmospheric Processing Plant by taking Shinatama there, and once the TCTF is there, they're going to find out about the modifications. And from there, they can unravel his thread enough to make his plan not as viable as he might want it to be. Instead, Griffin throws it all away to hunt down Konoko, diverting resources to chasing down someone who, at that time, wasn't a threat instead of focusing on the actual problems at hand. Look, Griffin screwed up from start to finish, and if we cataloged them, we would be here all day. But because he chose to focus on his personal problems, Muro was able to act freely and get all the last pieces for his plan into place. Speaking of Muro though... The Boss Fight. Muro as a boss is much like his encounter in Konoko's dream back in level 11. However, this time he will break out his own counters to Konoko's Rising Fury and Devil Spin Kick, and much like her dream-self, he starts with a full Daoden charge that doesn't go away naturally. You have to beat it out of him, reducing his damage output and durability in the process. His helpers are replaced as they go down, to make up for the fact that you have three TCTF Black Ops on your side, the toughest NPCs in the game. And they bring a VDG to the fight. So in order to win, do as I suggest in the video. Pump your health into Overpower mode and just pummel him to death. If you give him a chance to gain his momentum, or if one of his allies breaks through to disrupt you, he can quickly turn the fight around. Keep up the pressure, dodge and strike and know that you probably have more Overpower than he does. But in the end, he goes down like a chump. Muro, for all his bluff and bluster isn't a threat. He's a final boss that doesn't feel like one. Being able to bring in Griffin and probably the last two Black Ops in the region make the fight a four-on-three in your favor, and that's not all that fun. No, there is an alternative. There is a darker option... Kill Griffin  There are no Subtitles for this Video. There's not enough time. Muro Imago is the demon that Muro thinks Konoko should be. A Monstrous hulk of a monster that towers over all around them, a hero slayer out to... wait a minute. WHY IS HE DOOMSDAY?!?!? Muro Imago is a difficult fight, one that I make look relatively easy because I understand one thing about him that most people miss. His hit box is his torso, not his legs or arms. You can't go low, you can't throw him. The best way to fight him is to either stand a little above him, as I do at the start of the fight, and be even with his chest, or do what I do at the end of the fight and jump-kick him. His attacks are wide and designed less for dealing with a single enemy in front of him, and more for area control, negating Konoko's advantage in maneuver. But in terms of timing, he's not that much longer than Normal Muro in terms of a boss battle. It's just you and him, no distractions, save the glow from both of you. Yet, there's something about this fight that bothers me. Look at the opening lines. Yes, he says the same thing in both of them, but the line about choking on foul air is almost ... exactly the same. I think that initially, the final boss battle against Muro was always going to be the Imago Muro, with some ideas that it would be a multi-stage battle where you fought him normally, but he decides to go for a second stage fight. The nature and cadence of the lines tell me that they were first recorded for the Imago fight, but then re purposed for the 'Griffin Lives' fight. Narratively speaking, this ties back to Kerr's line about how the Chrysalis will invoke the subject's true, inner nature. For all she's done, and is, Konoko still wants to be human, while Muro embraces his inner monster. He thinks she hasn't tapped the full power of their shared post-humanist, but what he doesn't know is that she has. We just don't have it laid out for us as the BGI arc was cut from the game, the section of the game after Kerr dies and before she goes after Griffin. The BGI Arc was supposed to fill in these small gaps, and we never got to see them. It may have even provided Konoko with a reason to spare Griffin's life, which leads us to the morality of the choice. For those of you reading this on the LP Archive, and not on SA, I asked the thread what their opinion was regarding Griffin's fate, and it was quite in favor of killing him. Those who offered the opinion of mercy held to the general idea that doing so would be rewarded by the game. But the vast majority of those who offered their opinions were solidly in the "Kill Griffin" camp. You see, the common refrain from them was that Griffins actions had long since passed from the realm of morality and into the region of Holy poo poo STOP!, to put words into their collective mouths. They argued, to varying degrees, that shooting Griffin dead was the fast death, as the fallout from these events would see him made an example of by his superiors in the TCTF. I... have a different thought. In my view, I've been making this comment the whole LP, both in the videos and in these essays. Konoko, is, was and in that moment, still an emotionally driven person. She acts not with any sort of consideration, but in the heat of the moment. In my view, the real ending to this game is that she does shoot Griffin. Not because of some moral or legal or sociological outlook, but because it is the solution to the problem at hand that provides the most immediate emotional gratification. Konoko shoots Griffin. Because she wants to. There is no deeper explanation than that. There is no need to any further analysis, as all her character shows is that sort of thing. She never develops, and as a result, the consequences for her actions, and the actions of those around her keep piling up until everything is broken. The world breaks because no one is willing or capable to take a breath and realize that Konoko, Griffin and Muro will never back down. And they can't, until two of the three are dead. But you know what I find interesting about this game? Something that came up because I'm spending the time to write all this down, and I'm listening to the people making comments in the thread? A lot of people were thinking that as the game came out in the early 2000's, that Bungie would have shoehorned in some sort of primitive morality result for choosing the kill Griffin or not. That the game would reward you with a better or more uplifting ending for sparing him. That's not what happens. The above image is a link to the ending video and closing credits. Oni offers nothing. Perhaps as a result of the abridged development time, perhaps as I suspect, the second 'good' Boss fight was added at a later date, perhaps for some other reason.... Oni offers no Moral. No matter what you choose, Oni's ending plays out the same. Your choice makes no difference aside from the final boss. Killing or Sparing Griffin.... means nothing. As it should. Not everything is cut and dry, and there are no happy endings in this game. Oni is not a story where the protagonist eeks out a last second victory and all or most is forgiven in the service of higher causes. No, the entire back half of the game has been one of vengeance, anger, hatred and rage and none of that matters. Muro doesn't get to see his victory. No matter what Konoko chooses, he dies there, atop a lonely mountain. Griffin's fate is... unknown, but regardless of her actions, he's done for. As for Konoko? There's nothing left for her. Everyone she knows is either dead, or a mortal enemy at this point. No matter what you choose, this ending is bitter. In the end, there is no choice, and I think that this makes for a better game. Or a better ending at least. Once she started down this path, nothing she does can change the outcome. And that's why Oni is great.
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Jan 19, 2022 04:40
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Try telling that to Konoko. She'll just blame Griffin for everything. She's not wrong, though.
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Jan 19, 2022 06:32
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I always thought that Muro turning into a monster on the Kill path was meant to imply that it was inevitably going to turn its hosts into violent monsters while his staying human in the other path meant it could be controlled. The ending doesn't reach the point where Konoko knows for sure where humanity is going to go with it.
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Jan 19, 2022 07:36
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I'm down with the whole "no moral, this is just revenge" thing. Sometimes simple is best. The audio bothers me though. I just can't take the syndicate elites seriously though with their goofy voices, it's like someone with a mouthful of sandwich mumbling and groaning into a trashcan. And the music - the stuff playing during the credits is pretty neat if a bit peak late-90s-cool. Yet during the actual game they only use a couple of pretty crappy to mediocre 10-second loops... I don't know who did the decision making and cutting there, but they screwed up. did anyone else notice the special thanks to one Hugh Jass?
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Jan 19, 2022 11:51
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It was pretty wild back in the day just seeing only the Spare Griffin version of the ending and then seeing references to "Mutant Muro" (I think seeing the character portrait in the game's assets) and just assuming it was something cut from the game. And I think at the time thinking something like "wow that looks dumb I'm glad they left it out of the game" or something. Then IIRC many years later finding out that it actually was in the game as an alternate final boss fight. Also up until reading the text for this update I thought his official name was Mutant Muro
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Jan 19, 2022 21:17
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I can definitely say I did not expect that ending. Also lol at Konoko's full power tossing Griffin like a doll. Did you try for that camera angle? I only have a single game writing credit so I'm not an expert or anything but I wish there was a LITTLE more to the Griffin ending. I don't need resolution or anything, but...as presented, so much of the story is Griffin and Konoko. Muro is sort of a background villain. So end it with Griffin and Konoko...unless Griffin's dead. Then end it with Griffin's grave and Konoko.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:57
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Y'know, all I can really think at the moment is that Muro's Imago-form hitboxes are pretty wonky. While the story isn't really that Anime, you can see that it's definitely inspired by the medium, and in particular seems to borrow heavily from the peak of late 80's and 90's sci-fi OVA's with their often nihilistic themes (Oni's "The End: No Moral" approach to it's climax being probably one of its more obvious examples.) Ultimately it feels like a pastiche, but one that's unable to really get into the gritty stuff; obviously it couldn't end up nearly as gory or horny as direct to video anime often ended up being, if only due to limitations of what you could do on a purely technical level in video games at the time, to say nothing of the ESRB rating that it would have risked even if it could. MShadowy fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 02:34
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