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Pretty darn good. Basically disappointed in how they handled him (them) defeating hte bad guys and getting rid of them. Also disappointing but far less important - When he got his new apartment at the end, I really thought they were about to introduce Mary Jane as his new next door neighbor.
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Dec 19, 2021 07:14
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Krispy Wafer posted:So now Flash thinks he's supposed to get Spider-man rides to school every day for the next 2 weeks, but he doesn't remember why? How frustrating that must be. Everyone forgot who Peter Parker was, but not Spider-Man. Did everyone just get a find and replace of Peter/Spidey for their memories? Or if there’s a conflict does it get deleted entirely. Does Flash now think he did Spider-Man a solid, or did he forget that whole interaction entirely since it’s too closely tied to Peter Parker? So the Avengers know of their history with Spider-Man, but not his identity? Do they just assume he’s a really private person? This one is weird since Spider-Man is basically the only Avenger in the MCU who even had a secret identity (well, I guess Daredevil also kinda counts now). I find it hard to believe someone like Nick Fury would just be cool letting Peter maintain his anonymity, and I have no idea how the Fury!Skrull’s memory of Far From Home would play out since Peter’s dual lives was so pivotal to it. It’s basically like the Snap and Blip in that you just gotta roll with it. Movie was enjoyable, although after this and Ghostbusters I am very, very tired of having my nostalgia dangled in front of me like keys. Also, Spider-Verse really undermines this, especially since it is the better movie of the two. At least NWH found a fresh angle to tackle so it didn’t feel like the same movie.
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Dec 19, 2021 07:51
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I can't believe this movie was just a remake of Day of the Doctor.
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Dec 19, 2021 08:37
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Doctor Dogballs posted:Pretty darn good. Basically disappointed in how they handled him (them) defeating hte bad guys and getting rid of them. Even if she was, so what? She's going to MIT and he's not. Plus he knows where she lives. He wouldn't pick an apartment right next door to her. That would be kind of stalker behavior. Now, if it turns out that Peter is now living next door to some cute girl named Gwen Stacy, that might get interesting.
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Dec 19, 2021 11:36
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Everyone posted:Even if she was, so what? She's going to MIT and he's not. Plus he knows where she lives. He wouldn't pick an apartment right next door to her. That would be kind of stalker behavior. Now, if it turns out that Peter is now living next door to some cute girl named Gwen Stacy, that might get interesting. His MJ is Michelle Jones-Watson. Mary Jane is traditionally his MJ. Which isn't really a spoiler but let me not give anyone the idea that Mary Jane is in this more than a mention.
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Dec 19, 2021 11:45
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I feel completely the opposite to those who dislike the tragic aspects of this film. Spider-Man as a character is interesting because when at its best it's a fun adventure wrapping over a melancholy spirit. Spider-Man has tragedy built into its DNA, the entire origin has a fable like quality, and the best stories engage with the idea of consequence. I found the previous MCU Spider-Man films weightless and inconsequential to a fault, whereas as this one managed to ride that line of being moving, emotional, sad AND fun, exciting, comedic etc. In a way it was it's own retelling of the origin. In the first act, Spider-Man can't see outside of his own selfish needs and makes a choice without thinking about the consequences, he loses someone he loves, and in the final act makes the responsible choice realizing there are more important things than his own happiness.
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Dec 19, 2021 12:34
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Spiderman isn't selfish or self-absorbed though. At the start of the film he's an established selfless hero and the arc of the film tests that to the point where he decides to murder green goblin and never actually resiles from that decision, he's just thwarted. He's motivated by the desire to help his friends as much as himself and the jeapody of the film is just caused by the fact that he's an immature teenager rather than any real character flaw.
Alchenar fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 13:21
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I don't know, breaking reality and erasing people's memories in order to you get you and your friend's into University feels pretty selfish. At the end he erases people's memories again of course but to save lives. It's not that he's a wholly selfish person as he is still a hero as the film starts, but that initial decision vis a vis the wish is imo. But I like that.
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Dec 19, 2021 13:30
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Karloff posted:I don't know, breaking reality and erasing people's memories in order to you get you and your friend's into University feels pretty selfish. At the end he erases people's memories again of course but to save lives. It's not that he's a wholly selfish person as he is still a hero as the film starts, but that initial decision vis a vis the wish is imo. But I like that. Yeah but the point is immediately made (in a good joke) the only reason he goes down that route is because it literally doesn't occur to Peter to ring up the Uni to plead his case and that's because he's a kid who doesn't understand that that's an option for him. The moment he understands that's an option then he immediately goes for that plan and when he gets to the Uni person his plea is primarily for his friends, not for himself. e: strange is also the one who comes up with the memory wipe solution and he is the one who pushes it and presents it to Peter as being no big deal right up until it doesn't work. Strange is the rear end in a top hat here. e2: like if Strange just talks to Peter before starting to cast the spell and they agree the exact parameters then it all works out fine and the film doesn't happen Alchenar fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Dec 19, 2021 |
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Dec 19, 2021 13:40
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Making the Ben Affleck Daredevil MCU canon was a bold choice
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Dec 19, 2021 14:03
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Alchenar posted:Yeah but the point is immediately made (in a good joke) the only reason he goes down that route is because it literally doesn't occur to Peter to ring up the Uni to plead his case and that's because he's a kid who doesn't understand that that's an option for him. The moment he understands that's an option then he immediately goes for that plan and when he gets to the Uni person his plea is primarily for his friends, not for himself. Yeah the way Strange handled the whole first act had me convinced the Mephisto theories were true. He was a real dickhole. Hell they could still reveal in Strange 2 that the real Strange has been trapped in the Mirror Universe since the blip and I'd fully believe it.
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Dec 19, 2021 14:12
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I wish I had studied film critique at some point but I know enough about literature and writing to know that this film deploys a two-tiered Deus Ex Machina system. The first tier is “A Wizard did it”, in which the entire plot revolves around a wizard doing something and then the entire plot is resolved by the same wizard doing the same thing, effectively negating the events of the entire film in a pretty unsatisfying and clumsy way, but then there is ALSO the second layer of Deus Ex Machina in which the fulcrum of the entire film is based on the idea that Happy simply owns a magical Star Trek miracle engine that can produce or engineer any material from nothing? What? Like, the look on Otto and Norman’s faces when they realize that the MCUniverse is one in which technology has been mastered, there are no known limitations to what technology can accomplish, are both great. It’s a fun juxtaposition to compare Stark industries to Oscorp, and to compare what happens to the Starks and the Osbornes. But yeah, having the plot revolve completely around “a wizard doing it, until we need the magic robot that just shits out super-science super-villain cures at breakneck pace” is what holds this movie back from perfection from me. Also the fact that even though it’s technically a trilogy of films, Dr Strange is so critical to the plot of this movie that you really have to have seen at least 1-3 other films to really get anything approaching real context for what the gently caress is happening. If you’d only ever watched the two Holland Spider-Mans, then all of act 3 seems like just completely unrelated nonsense. Again, I loved this movie, just picking at the frayed ends
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Dec 19, 2021 14:25
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Oh yeah I thought at one point that Peter's character arc might have something to do with him having a Wizard of Oz style run through of fixing the villain's flaws and learning about himself along the way, but no they just effortlessly do some chemistry to get a bag of macguffins.
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Dec 19, 2021 14:36
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Alchenar posted:Spiderman isn't selfish or self-absorbed though. At the start of the film he's an established selfless hero and the arc of the film tests that to the point where he decides to murder green goblin and never actually resiles from that decision, he's just twarted. He's motivated by the desire to help his friends as much as himself and the jeapody of the film is just caused by the fact that he's an immature teenager rather than any real character flaw. And the movie tries to reduce that to putting together some No, I don’t expect a scene of Peter callously sending everyone back to their home universe to die, but there is like zero parallel between Tobey Spider-Man’s lesson about responsibility and MCU Spider-Man’s, and it’s getting old seeing Peter being treated like a monster for wanting an ounce of autonomy.
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Dec 19, 2021 14:41
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It’s also just weird for the final film in a trilogy (that’s really more of a hexology) to functionally rehash Peter’s origin story. I agree that giving us 3 films to love Aunt May was the smart move, but no matter how you slice it, May dying is like 10,000% more Tom’s fault than Uncle Ben or Gwen Stacy were the fault of the other Spiders-Men.
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Dec 19, 2021 14:45
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Also with regards to the sacrifice Peter makes at the end the film even has Maguire say 'oh actually you don't have to be alone and miserable as Peter Parker, if you put in the effort you can find a way to make it work' except for some reason he says this to Andy Garfield and not Tom so Tom never learns this lesson and tries to get a happier ending.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:03
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Technically, it’s May’s fault 
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Dec 19, 2021 15:03
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They should have had Ned and Mary-Jane kiss at the coffee shop to really stick in the knife and break it off
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Dec 19, 2021 15:04
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Bust Rodd posted:I wish I had studied film critique at some point but I know enough about literature and writing to know that this film deploys a two-tiered Deus Ex Machina system. If you had studied it, you'd know that's not true. The entire point of the Deus Ex is that it comes out of nowhere, and is largely disconnected from the plot. In this case Strange is an established character being sought out for a well known power he possess and has used before: Time travel. Which has been the plot of multiple films at this point. Even the mind wipe is no real stretch from the powers we've already seen him employ, although the scale is impressive. Moreover the act isn't divorced from the plot, it *is* the plot. What has this search for an easy solution done, what does it cost Peter? And what is he willing to do about it? That's the entire film, which makes it the exact opposite of what a Deus Ex Machina is. A closer example of a Deus Ex is him just having the ability to rent an apartment and sign up for the GED program when he doesn't have an identity. It's not really important to the plot to get into how he overcame that, so the answer is he did. Move on. Narratively that's what a Deus Ex is. "We are done with this, move on.". The original of course having a bit of religious association, as the god from a machine is literally a god coming in by some mechanism. How are we going to get out of this one? gently caress it, sky chariot carries her away. Ooooh, aaaaah. Criticism of it as hack bullshit by writers too stupid to think a way out of a corner they wrote themselves into is older than Christ. quote:but then there is ALSO the second layer of Deus Ex Machina in which the fulcrum of the entire film is based on the idea that Happy simply owns a magical Star Trek miracle engine that can produce or engineer any material from nothing? Stark has used one of those is practically every single film he's ever shown up in, and Happy explicitly got one for Peter. Like gently caress, Peter just used one in the last movie. Again that's....that's just the setting. It's one of the criticism's of Holland's Spider-Man, that he's basically had access to this ridiculous level of technology since the moment we knew him. We never really got "Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man TM" until the end of this movie. quote:Also the fact that even though it’s technically a trilogy of films, Dr Strange is so critical to the plot of this movie that you really have to have seen at least 1-3 other films to really get anything approaching real context for what the gently caress is happening. It's been nearly a decade since the Avengers, the point at which they flat out went "This film is going to assume you know things from other films to understand everything that is going on.". Yes, that is the MCU design goal. An interconnected series of movies to tell larger stories and make more money. Strange was front and center in all previews and posters and the like. They also showed villains from the other two Spider-Man universes, they weren't shy about that either. That's just the brand. Totally ok not to like that, but at a certain point you have to realize that there are 13 year olds that went to see this movie that have only lived in a world where MCU films existed. This isn't new, and it's not a secret. Were you expecting them not to be doing the thing they showed you they were doing?
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Dec 19, 2021 15:20
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Karloff posted:I feel completely the opposite to those who dislike the tragic aspects of this film. Spider-Man as a character is interesting because when at its best it's a fun adventure wrapping over a melancholy spirit. Spider-Man has tragedy built into its DNA, the entire origin has a fable like quality, and the best stories engage with the idea of consequence. I found the previous MCU Spider-Man films weightless and inconsequential to a fault, whereas as this one managed to ride that line of being moving, emotional, sad AND fun, exciting, comedic etc. In a way it was it's own retelling of the origin. In the first act, Spider-Man can't see outside of his own selfish needs and makes a choice without thinking about the consequences, he loses someone he loves, and in the final act makes the responsible choice realizing there are more important things than his own happiness. I feel that's always half the story of Spider-Man though, yes his life is suppose to be what if a normal person got powers but he life doesn't have to suck all the time and he doesn't have to make tragic decisions all the time. Sometimes, things work out and sometimes they don't. Writers of Spider-Man tend to land on PETER MUST SUFFER and it can be draining. Anyways, it will be interesting to see where they go from here because they opened the door a little bit for Gwen and Felicia and maybe integrating Dare Devil and Punisher? edit: Also, I am sad they are Strange from Peter. In the comics its end up being a decent relationship.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:23
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Just because the setting has perfect Stark technology doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel lazy and undercuts the tension of the film to just go “well, we need to resolve the plots of 7 movies spanning 20 years, so let’s just have a Magic Science Box that cures every genetic and mental disorder known to man and have all 3 Spider-Men just cure cancer the same way Tony solved Time Travel, in about half an hour” There was a way to tell this story without a Magic Science Box, and there was a way to end this story that wasn’t also the exact same way the story began. Those are my complaints with the way the story was written, and probably my only real complaints with the film. The MCU movies are fun and engaging and exciting but I really don’t think you need to defend a plot made out of Swiss cheese that is 100% designed to keep the set piece action sequences flowing. That’s all these scrips have ever been, it’s not weird to want them to be a little more than that.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:34
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It's nice to finally know if Sony Spider-Men live in the Marvel universe or if they're completely separate. It's something I've always wondered. The Avengers? Is that a band? Also the Stark magic box wasn't as effective as 3 Spider-Men working together as friends.
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Dec 19, 2021 15:50
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Bust Rodd posted:But yeah, having the plot revolve completely around “a wizard doing it, until we need the magic robot that just shits out super-science super-villain cures at breakneck pace” is what holds this movie back from perfection from me. Yeah, I think this sums up why I'm still feeling so dissatisfied with this one. It took a while to think through, because I did enjoy myself through most of this movie, but it's really just due to the strength of the cast and novelty of the setting rather than anything the plot was doing. When you put it like that, Dr. Strange was the main character here. A Then Act 2 kicks off and Peter wants to speedrun through the plots of 5 different Spiderman movies to fix everyone's problems -- which is seen as a doable and reasonable thing thanks to the magic robot that shits out superscience cures -- rather than send everyone back to their own movies as-is...which feels like kind of a reasonable solution TOO, and makes it a little hard to swallow the insistence on the 5-movie speedrun. And then things go wrong and while Spiderman succeeds in fixing the bad guys, Dr. Strange's magic gets out of control and the only way out is for him to ruin Peter's entire life with more horrifically powerful magic. It's fuckin' lame. It would have been a lot more by-the-book, but I wonder if I would have liked the movie a lot more if they'd just had a few fun Sinister Six battles for Act 2, and the Spidermen team up to save the city before Strange can figure out how to send them all back. (And okay, kill Aunt May if you HAVE to have some real consequences for Peter to grow up, but gently caress, not EVERY version of Spiderman has to have the most depressing life in existence. Tom Holland was doing a good job of keeping the character grounded even if he got a bunch of Stark advantages that other Spidermen haven't had.)
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Dec 19, 2021 16:19
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Bust Rodd posted:Just because the setting has perfect Stark technology doesn’t mean it doesn’t feel lazy and undercuts the tension of the film to just go “well, we need to resolve the plots of 7 movies spanning 20 years, so let’s just have a Magic Science Box that cures every genetic and mental disorder known to man and have all 3 Spider-Men just cure cancer the same way Tony solved Time Travel, in about half an hour” They walk you down the list. Norman is unbalanced by the serum he used, and our Peter fails to cure him in his attempt. Magic science box failed. It takes Norman's Peter who has had what looks like decades to think about it to fix him. Otto's problem was always the faulty control on his arms making him wacky, and it's flat out ancient technology by the standards of the MCU. Sandman is a legit just "gently caress it, we cure him" handwave, sure. That's one. Lizard has been cured before, so now it's just "Just...just do that I guess?". Electro maybe two, with an asterisk. Noticeably Electro is still kind of an rear end in a top hat even without electricity powers. He's not "fixed", he's just not a massive danger that needs to be killed. Again, it's the plot. He can help them, so just sending them back is a choice. If he couldn't help them, it's a different proposition Because he can help them, the question is raised: Does he have the moral duty to help them? May, and the other Peters, would say yes. After losing May, our Peter is leaning no. The point is to hammer in "No stupid, this is what they mean by great power and great responsibility.". The knowledge and resources to do all these amazing things is his power. You can't have this plot without it, or something arbitrarily close to it. quote:There was a way to tell this story without a Magic Science Box, and there was a way to end this story that wasn’t also the exact same way the story began. Those are my complaints with the way the story was written, and probably my only real complaints with the film. Cool, what is the way to tell the story about having the ability to deal with various genetic and psychological defects in like 5 hours before the universe collapses that doesn't involve a magic science box? That's the the entire plot. Strange wants to send them back because they threaten reality, Peter wants to help them so they don't die, they are all established characters with known problems, and the clock is "Fix them before Strange gets back or reality collapses". Before he gets the help of the Spider-Mans he is confident because he has a magic science box. Without that, he has no reason to think he can do anything and just....sends them back I guess? If he jumps straight to having the Spider-Men, it never becomes as much of an issue in the first place. What's your fix? Your alternate idea to how he can reasonably expect to fix these people fast that isn't just another form of "Infinite resources"? "I wouldn't have done that in the first place" is just "Don't tell this story", not "There's another way to tell this story". Also ending it how it began is the point, not a flaw. In the beginning he's a child that thinks he can just have all the good things without the consequences, and in the end he's faced with the harsh reality that he can't fix everything without sacrifice. He's faced with the same choice and makes a different decision because he's grown as a character. That's.....like the basics of storytelling? Hero's Journy 101 poo poo, returning to a situation as a changed figure and seeing it differently. quote:The MCU movies are fun and engaging and exciting but I really don’t think you need to defend a plot made out of Swiss cheese that is 100% designed to keep the set piece action sequences flowing. That’s all these scrips have ever been, it’s not weird to want them to be a little more than that. The plot holes of "Things they've constantly shown in other movies doing things they've always done". It's a loving popcorn action film, you don't need to invent reasons not to like them. Just don't like it. Don't pretend there's some critical flaw that is forcing you not to like it. You just don't like the thing they did. It makes perfect sense in their setting that it'd be there, you just don't like it. That's fine. It doesn't need to be more than that. And there's nothing wrong with it being that.
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Dec 19, 2021 16:20
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Multiple incarnations of the protagonist collaborate to find a compassionate, lifesaving alternative to mass murder. Mass murder is embodied by a magic box with a plunger. Memory is manipulated and the story ends with our hero talking to someone who doesn't know them anymore in a diner. This is Day of the Doctor + Hell Bent. Not complaining but lmao.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:31
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DoctorWhat posted:Multiple incarnations of the protagonist collaborate to find a compassionate, lifesaving alternative to mass murder. Mass murder is embodied by a magic box with a plunger. Memory is manipulated and the story ends with our hero talking to someone who doesn't know them anymore in a diner. Day of the Doctor is great and this is good too, despite my feelings on how things were handled. So checks out.
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Dec 19, 2021 17:35
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Phenotype posted:-- which is seen as a doable and reasonable thing thanks to the magic robot that shits out superscience cures -- rather than send everyone back to their own movies as-is...which feels like kind of a reasonable solution TOO, and makes it a little hard to swallow the insistence on the 5-movie speedrun This is wrong, the reason why it only seems doable and reasonable is because Peter and May are the only ones who ever thought it WAS doable and reasonable. Aunt May isn’t being histrionic or anything. She works at a volunteer homeless shelter. Helping people who are the at the end of their own rope is like breathing for her. And she knows the type of character peter squares up against so the course of action she steers peter towards is reasonable. Also lol at everyone calling it a “speed run”, they’re rides not videogames. I don’t know if it’s possible to speed run something like a roller coaster or event movie unless you can soak up projector photons quicker or something
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Dec 19, 2021 17:50
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DoctorWhat posted:I can't believe this movie was just a remake of Day of the Doctor. I was about to ask which Peter was Sandshoes and which was Granddad, but...I already know. I already know
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Dec 19, 2021 17:51
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Shrimpy posted:I was super disappointed that an exact animated version didn't show up in the animated credits They did, they were just way off in the background.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:01
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forest spirit posted:Also lol at everyone calling it a “speed run”, they’re rides not videogames. I don’t know if it’s possible to speed run something like a roller coaster or event movie unless you can soak up projector photons quicker or something it took five (more?) separate movies with different spidermen doing all they could to stop these villains and cure their illnesses, and now we're trying to wrap it all up within a single movie, OP
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Dec 19, 2021 18:16
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yeah that doesn't stick, the villains are the same but they serve a different narrative purpose if we're gonna jack terms from other mediums then I gotta say if it was a speedrun, then he would have done all the poo poo from the other movies but quicker, that's how those work lol if it was a speedrun he would, ASAP, kill goblin with his own whip fry doc's chip and convince him through the circumstances he finds himself in upon awakening to self-sacrifice merk electro cure lizard have sand-man kinda give up and just want to peace out and be a dusty fella but that isn't what's done in this movie sorry OP but speedrun just seems like a lazy diss that isn't well thought out
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Dec 19, 2021 18:37
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Everyone posted:Even if she was, so what? She's going to MIT and he's not. Plus he knows where she lives. He wouldn't pick an apartment right next door to her. That would be kind of stalker behavior. Now, if it turns out that Peter is now living next door to some cute girl named Gwen Stacy, that might get interesting. i said Mary Jane not MJ, which is an entirely different character. MJ (Michelle Jones) is the one leaving for MIT.
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Dec 19, 2021 18:55
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it was really stupid how electro had an iron man arc reactor making him stronger than ever and he was directly, full on lighting bolting spider man, and basically had no effect. The inconsequentiality of the villains except for Goblin and Doc Ock, and the let's "cure" these fellers by inventing antidotes... that poo poo was stupid. i still liked the movie 
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Dec 19, 2021 19:02
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Doctor Dogballs posted:i said Mary Jane not MJ, which is an entirely different character. MJ (Michelle Jones) is the one leaving for MIT. Yep. I admit I missed that. Mostly because the idea of Zendaya's smart, brave, independent, very deserving and demanding of respect character getting replaced by some big-titted redhead that nicknames Peter "Tiger" makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
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Dec 19, 2021 19:16
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I mean MJ in the Holland series is essentially the same role as MJ in every other universe. He's not going to meet and fall in love with another woman called MJ lol. If they don't bring Zendaya back I imagine there'll be a Gwen. (or a Gwyn?)
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Dec 19, 2021 19:37
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Everyone posted:Yep. I admit I missed that. Mostly because the idea of Zendaya's smart, brave, independent, very deserving and demanding of respect character getting replaced by some big-titted redhead that nicknames Peter "Tiger" makes me throw up in my mouth a little. Let's be fair though, Mary Jane (comics wise) is brave and independent. Her depictions in the Raimi trilogy, I admit, aren't the best.
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Dec 19, 2021 19:47
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They'll probably bring in Gwen Stacey for the next Spider-Man and create a bunch of romance drama that wraps up with Peter and MJ reuniting in the final movie. Also the box office numbers just got reported as 253 million dollars, which is bananas considering it's theaters only during a pandemic. People sure like their Spider-Men.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:38
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Spider-Man represents hope. I’ll take my hope wherever I can these days. Even if it means stalking the plague wastes in a baby Yoda surgical mask
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Dec 19, 2021 21:42
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It's crazy that the plot of Marvel's new megablockbuster is "Don't kill everybody" after Avenger in training Kate Bishop blew up a car with people in it and no one batted an eye.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:48
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live with fruit posted:It's crazy that the plot of Marvel's new megablockbuster is "Don't kill everybody" after Avenger in training Kate Bishop blew up a car with people in it and no one batted an eye. That car didn't have global treasure Willem Dafoe in it though.
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Dec 19, 2021 21:57
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