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I’m watching someone trash FCM and unironically defend Terraforming Mars as the vastly superior game because “FCM takes too long” and doesn’t have a catch up mechanism, whereas TM is shorter and the randomness offsets that. I just wanted to share that here.
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May 1, 2024 08:41
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million dollar mack posted:I’m watching someone trash FCM and unironically defend Terraforming Mars as the vastly superior game because “FCM takes too long” and doesn’t have a catch up mechanism, whereas TM is shorter and the randomness offsets that. Now I think FCM has some real shortcomings, especially as a casual game but ooft that's not it.
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May 1, 2024 08:46
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million dollar mack posted:I’m watching someone trash FCM and unironically defend Terraforming Mars as the vastly superior game because “FCM takes too long” and doesn’t have a catch up mechanism, whereas TM is shorter and the randomness offsets that. I'll give this guy a tiny bit of benefit of the doubt and say that TM is significantly less bad if it only takes 90 minutes for a game instead of 4-5 hours
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May 1, 2024 09:59
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I always see people saying that a 4+ hour game of TfM is hell and it is. I give that game more leeway than most but that is a bridge too far. My mind simply cannot comprehend what sort of players would willing drag the game out that long.
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May 1, 2024 13:49
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In my limited experience, if there’s a heavy skew towards one player having significantly more Action cards then that player will: 1. grind the momentum of a round to a halt on their turn because they have a more complex selection of options to optimize, and 2. have several things still to do once everyone else has passed and are just waiting for the round to end
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May 1, 2024 13:54
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The following all make longer turns more likely: Drafting - seeing more cards makes long term planning more rewarding and it's more viable to fish for specific card combinations, if you don't draft then you have more of an incentive to hedge your bets with generally useful value cards such as asteroids Venus / Colonies / Turmoil all add more decisionmaking via their specific mechanics as well as more cards which don't terraform. Cards which neither terraform nor build the player's resource engine really slow the game down. Micromanaging colonies and floaters can induce a lot of AP Most of the newer corporations have weird gimmicks with fiddly gameplay interactions which can interrupt the flow of the game (the insurance company and that one "curing cancer" company come to mind) The base map's gardener and mayor milestones do a good job of rewarding players for getting onto the map quickly which also tends to speed up the game, some of the maps have weird milestones which encourage you to just play a bunch of cards instead I recently played a game of TfM with vanilla rules (no drafting) + preludes and it was pretty quick in spite of being one player's first game, it reminded me why I enjoyed the game a fair bit when I first played it
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May 1, 2024 14:50
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Over the weekend my group played Yedo and I have to say it was quite enjoyable. It was more interactive than Lords Of Waterdeep, with the bidding phase, and the watchmen/action cards. I think I'll replace lord of waterdeep with Yedo in my collection.
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May 1, 2024 16:04
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DropTheAnvil posted:Over the weekend my group played Yedo and I have to say it was quite enjoyable. It was more interactive than Lords Of Waterdeep, with the bidding phase, and the watchmen/action cards. I've had this on my shelf unplayed for 7+ years because a FLGS was doing a blowout on games and it looked interesting so I said gently caress it and grabbed a copy. Just never sat down and played it but I'll give it a shot if you say it's a better LoW (Caylus, hallowed by thy name) because I hate that loving game.
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May 1, 2024 17:11
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million dollar mack posted:I’m watching someone trash FCM and unironically defend Terraforming Mars as the vastly superior game because “FCM takes too long” and doesn’t have a catch up mechanism, whereas TM is shorter and the randomness offsets that. FCM does have a catch up mechanism. In fact, they added an expansion and cleverly titled it "The Ketchup Mechanism" .
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May 1, 2024 18:44
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Thoughts on Suburbia?
Azran fucked around with this message at 10:36 on May 2, 2024 |
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May 2, 2024 05:05
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I can't loving wait for my copy of Slay the Spire to arrive.LifeLynx posted:As we wrapped up, one of my friends grumbled "This is going to take forever to clean up". And... it wasn't. In two minutes everyone had separated everything into the appropriate decks. As someone who loves Legendary Encounters: ALIEN, I am hella looking forward to something easy to clean up. I guess the tedious sorting of LE:A(SPORTS) is fitting punishment after we get gruesomely killed.
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May 2, 2024 09:12
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million dollar mack posted:I’m watching someone trash FCM and unironically defend Terraforming Mars as the vastly superior game because “FCM takes too long” and doesn’t have a catch up mechanism, whereas TM is shorter and the randomness offsets that. Some people really like higher randomness games. I know people who gravitate toward that because they'd been in close relationships with players who were both better-versed in games and driven to win every game, even when teaching/trying to get people into the hobby. One of them retreated to Yahtzee after 10+ years with people like that. One person told me that Ascension was better than Dominion because you aren't stuck playing with the same cards the whole game, and therefore you always had a chance.
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May 2, 2024 13:24
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Azran posted:Thoughts on Suburbia? I am not the most objective because it's one of the first games my wife and I ever played together along with Carcassonne, Caverna, and Castles of Mad King, but I will do my best. I really like this game. It really does feel like you're building a functional little city, especially when you add in expansion tiles (pick and choose, there can be an overwhelming amount). Turns go quickly and the entire thing lasts for just as long as you'd like it to. There's enough decision making and choices between balancing goals and trying to make sure your city's economy is working as it should so you can continue getting what you want. It has a very nice amount of interactivity between players that stops it from being multiplayer solitaire. My only issue with it is that it is a giant extra-large Keg™ sized point salad so be prepared for that. I may be missing some things because it's literally been years since we played it but it used to get played a ton before... life. I'd watch a review of it online or God forbid, try it at a cafe if someone has one to play. We've also got organisers for it which makes set up and take down a breeze. Tekopo posted:Board gaming weekend starting tomorrow, think I wanna give Slay the Spire and Heat a try at least, will also get some games of 18XX in (probably 22MX and 22PNW) so should be good. Man, you love the 22 series. Do you find they go more quickly in person? Have you played enough that the fiddly privates and phase differences and chrome all make sense and you aren't doing what I do which is forgetting something major two ORs in and saying, whoops learning game! FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 13:52 on May 2, 2024 |
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May 2, 2024 13:38
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Board gaming weekend starting tomorrow, think I wanna give Slay the Spire and Heat a try at least, will also get some games of 18XX in (probably 22MX and 22PNW) so should be good.
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May 2, 2024 13:39
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homullus posted:One person told me that Ascension was better than Dominion because you aren't stuck playing with the same cards the whole game, and therefore you always had a chance. I completely understand this statement, because having to play Dominion against someone who has hundreds/thousands of plays under their belt and wants to win is pretty miserable to play against, because they also know exactly how.
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May 2, 2024 14:51
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I have a soft spot for Ascension since it was one of the first deckbuilders I played even before Dominion. Some players value the luck element of games very highly, especially as an equalizer. It's easier to be lucky than it is to be skilled.
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May 2, 2024 15:21
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FulsomFrank posted:Man, you love the 22 series. Do you find they go more quickly in person? Have you played enough that the fiddly privates and phase differences and chrome all make sense and you aren't doing what I do which is forgetting something major two ORs in and saying, whoops learning game!
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May 2, 2024 15:22
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High Tension Wire posted:I completely understand this statement, because having to play Dominion against someone who has hundreds/thousands of plays under their belt and wants to win is pretty miserable to play against, because they also know exactly how. I am the person who has played the most Dominion in any game of Dominion I play but I am really more interested in trying something weird to see if I can make it work than the most likely deck to win.
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May 2, 2024 16:32
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Tekopo posted:I haven't tried them yet in person so I'll have to see how it goes. I've played 1822 in person ages ago though (and was pretty ambivalent to it), and being in person does at least fix one of the major issues that I have with playing asynch, which is that the auction/SRs are interminable when playing on 18xx.games. As for the chrome of MX/PNW, I'll have to see how it goes on Saturday. In my experience, 22MX plays pretty well in person. The fact that the SR1 auctions take 20 minutes instead of 20 days makes a huge difference. You can also play more tactically placing only one bid cube at a time, rather than playing suboptimally (placing multiple bid cubes)
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May 2, 2024 16:54
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First game of Blood on the Clocktower tonight - any tips (player not GM)?
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May 2, 2024 17:11
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homullus posted:One person told me that Ascension was better than Dominion because you aren't stuck playing with the same cards the whole game, and therefore you always had a chance. Reminds me of the person who disliked how little chance you had to come back and win Dominion if your opponent got 5 Provinces when just the early expansions were out. I mean yeah, the expansions do add many other paths to get points and those are very welcome, but on the other hand you’re not *supposed* to win when your opponent gets most of the VPs (or insert kingdom appropriate win condition here) first. Your job was to *be* the guy who got 5 provinces. Like running a marathon and noting how hard it is to come back from when your opponent has basically crossed the finish line before you.
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May 2, 2024 17:43
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Poopy Palpy posted:I am the person who has played the most Dominion in any game of Dominion I play but I am really more interested in trying something weird to see if I can make it work than the most likely deck to win. Me, I'm just rigging every game to do that one gimmick one-turn finish.
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May 2, 2024 17:43
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My partner went to a Blood on the Clocktower group recently, with around 11 people playing, all quite close friends and they've all played it multiple times. They were cordial enough, but went ahead and killed him the first night. From what I can gather there are mechanics that mean you can still interact with the game after this, but it still seemed like a bit of a dick move against a new player who doesn't really know the group well. Am I off base thinking that?
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May 2, 2024 17:57
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HampHamp posted:My partner went to a Blood on the Clocktower group recently, with around 11 people playing, all quite close friends and they've all played it multiple times. They were cordial enough, but went ahead and killed him the first night. From what I can gather there are mechanics that mean you can still interact with the game after this, but it still seemed like a bit of a dick move against a new player who doesn't really know the group well. Am I off base thinking that? It's the right move because now your partner knows to not play these kinds of games. gently caress mafia/ww/etc
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May 2, 2024 18:00
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HampHamp posted:My partner went to a Blood on the Clocktower group recently, with around 11 people playing, all quite close friends and they've all played it multiple times. They were cordial enough, but went ahead and killed him the first night. From what I can gather there are mechanics that mean you can still interact with the game after this, but it still seemed like a bit of a dick move against a new player who doesn't really know the group well. Am I off base thinking that? It’s enough of a dick move that the game is built around it preventing it. There are special rules mechanics the GM can implement (called Fables) to be inclusive of people: children, differently abled, partners who are uncomfortable lying to each other, etc. One of them is “when you kill this person, you might die instead”. Specifically called out as a “let the new player have some fun before they die”. The group sounds sus and the GM extra sus. Edit: silvergoose posted:It's the right move because now your partner knows to not play these kinds of games. gently caress mafia/ww/etc Nah. BotC owns. Top 5 in my collection and I don’t like Mafia/WW
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May 2, 2024 18:02
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HampHamp posted:it still seemed like a bit of a dick move against a new player who doesn't really know the group well. Am I off base thinking that? No. Unless he effectively volunteered (there are things you can say that make it desirable to kill you asap).
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May 2, 2024 18:03
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Yeah playing devil's advocate at best your friend maybe had a role that was important to kill early and he tipped his hand to the more experienced players in a way he didn't realize. Having that unique mechanism of a game master means that before any of that they should have said let's goose things so the new guy gets to have fun, such as fudging it and giving him a predetermined role or the aforementioned mechanic.
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May 2, 2024 18:04
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Thanks for the replies, that's kinda what I thought! It's a shame because he loves social dedudction stuff and was super excited about BotC (which does sound great with the right group).
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May 2, 2024 18:13
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Social deduction games are so dependent on group vibes that I would be very hesitant to play with any group I didn't already know well. You really need a group of friends to learn it together with to really get sold on a game like BotC (imo).
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May 2, 2024 18:20
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The demon killed them or they voted to execute them?
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May 2, 2024 18:22
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The scenario was 'trouble brewing' and he was the butler role. He said he was killed at night, so maybe it wasn't actually a vote after all?
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May 2, 2024 18:24
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Azran posted:Thoughts on Suburbia? Suburbia is ok, and if the theme appeals to you I don't think I've played a better city building board game. However, the followup game Castles of Mad King Ludwig is mechanically similar but does almost everything better, so if you aren't married to the city theme then I'd recommend that instead.
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May 2, 2024 18:26
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High Tension Wire posted:I completely understand this statement, because having to play Dominion against someone who has hundreds/thousands of plays under their belt and wants to win is pretty miserable to play against, because they also know exactly how. Dominion really rewards experience, and with all the open information an expert player can pretty much solve the puzzle right away. I expect they'd just steamroll everyone who can't do that, and the only real challenge would be playing against someone else of similar experience and trying to figure out counterplay/blocking to that strategy. My sister had a job with a bunch of downtime and played hundreds of games of Ticket to Ride on her phone. With a digital version against computer players, you can play a whole match in ~5 minutes. She was at the point where she had memorized all the route combinations and could accurately guess which routes a player was going for within their first couple plays AND knew how much those routes were worth. Playing the physical version with her turned a light and cute filler game into a tennis match with Serena. It was like playing Top Trumps with Gareth from The Office https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA10ZFT7EGU
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May 2, 2024 18:42
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My understanding of BOTC is that being dead is a lot less of a problem than in the predecessors, insofar as it is not a player elimination game. You can still talk, strategize, consider, connive. I forget if you can nominate, but you only have the one remaining vote.
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May 2, 2024 18:53
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For everything fans of Werewolf praise in BotC as improvements, it seems there's an equal or greater step back. Having the moderator make decisions that affect the flow of information and therefor outcome of the game is a cardinal sin I just can't accept in a deduction game. It's no longer a deduction game, it's a roleplaying exercise (which is a big part of BotCs success, IMO).
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May 2, 2024 19:23
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HampHamp posted:The scenario was 'trouble brewing' and he was the butler role. He said he was killed at night, so maybe it wasn't actually a vote after all? It wasn't a vote, it was the one player who's the demon deciding who to kill. The storyteller has tools to stop that and probably should have, but also being a good storyteller in BOTC is extremely hard so stuff like this can get skipped. Also, the butler is a funky role that kind of sucks for a new player, it's one of the outsider roles that are on the good side but have a drawback. I'm a big BOTC fan but it's also a game where you have to roll with stuff like this. So if doesn't click, that's totally understandable.
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May 2, 2024 20:40
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Bottom Liner posted:For everything fans of Werewolf praise in BotC as improvements, it seems there's an equal or greater step back. Having the moderator make decisions that affect the flow of information and therefor outcome of the game is a cardinal sin I just can't accept in a deduction game. It's no longer a deduction game, it's a roleplaying exercise (which is a big part of BotCs success, IMO). I thought before playing it that BOTC was going to be more of a role playing thing, but once I was in the fun part was the deduction. The storyteller is as beholden to the rules as everyone else, you are actually going off of logic when making decisions. What the game being storyteller driven means that when you make a conclusion that would be unlikely if it was driven by randomness, you have to up the odds because the storyteller might be loving with you. It's cool not to like that, but it is definitely a game about deduction in the end.
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May 2, 2024 20:49
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The storyteller messing with the logic and deduction process makes it less about deduction and more social though. In your example above, you suggested the storyteller should have prevented a player from using their ability. I just can't see how or why that makes the game better and less arbitrary. Big group social deduction games already have plenty of social engineering baked in with the negotiation and voting processes, I can't accept another layer added on top of that by a neutral player that is there to facilitate the game superseding the players choices.
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May 2, 2024 20:58
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HampHamp posted:The scenario was 'trouble brewing' and he was the butler role. He said he was killed at night, so maybe it wasn't actually a vote after all? The good news about dying early in most BOTC scripts is that you are almost certainly not the demon, and also not evil. Since you can talk to anyone and still influence things, you can become a trusted source of information and help coordinate the game. Even better if you were killed at night because there's even less reason to distrust you. The Butler's ability is also usually a hindrance to town rather than a help, so he tanked a death for a good Townsfolk player. That increases the good team's chance of winning because it's one more day / night for an Empath, Slayer, Undertaker, etc. If I'm an outsider and I can bait the demon into killing me in Trouble Brewing, that's one of the best outcomes for winning the game. Bottom Liner posted:The storyteller messing with the logic and deduction process makes it less about deduction and more social though. In your example above, you suggested the storyteller should have prevented a player from using their ability. I just can't see how or why that makes the game better and less arbitrary. Big group social deduction games already have plenty of social engineering baked in with the negotiation and voting processes, I can't accept another layer added on top of that by a neutral player that is there to facilitate the game superseding the players choices. edit: To be clear, I don't think Clocktower is a game for everyone and I'm not trying to convince you that it is the best game ever, just wanted to give some perspective for people who may be interested. For this specific scenario: in Trouble Brewing, there is no way for the Storyteller to stop the demon from killing someone at night.* Certain player roles can prevent this (Monk, Soldier, Poisoner poisons their demon for some reason), but there is no way for the Storyteller to arbitrarily stop player abilities from functioning. More broadly: There's only so many possible worlds that can be true based on what happened during the day / night and what info each player got, even in the cases where the storyteller can make decisions (e.g. someone is poisoned and gets bad info). You can be a very deduction-focused player and work mechanically through the possible scenarios on many scripts, and you're rarely left with more than a few viable worlds by the endgame - and oftentimes as the evil team, you still need to figure out what those possible worlds are to not accidentally out yourself to people who can do that deduction. I've played and storytold scripts that lean heavily into deduction, and other scripts that lean heavily into being social focused. In either case, I've found that skilled play (social or mechanical) is rewarded consistently and repeatedly. For me, the cool parts of having a storyteller are three-fold: 1. There is a way bigger possibility space for the abilities and powers that can be balanced by having the right script and provide hugely different experiences. 2. You have way fewer games that are duds because the evil team gets outed immediately. 3. The storyteller can curb any bullying or other social behavior that often makes other social deduction games unpleasant to play. *There is an optional game mod called The Angel that you can announce to ALL players ahead of time that reads "Something bad might happen to whoever is most responsible for the death of a new player", but the Storyteller should only do this with the new player's consent. This is actually a good way to help balance out experienced groups who are playing with new players. I assume this is what an actual dog is referring to. interrodactyl fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 2, 2024 |
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May 2, 2024 21:58
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A lot of people don’t like that the Storyteller has some agency in decisions with BOTC, but I lean into that as a game rule I explain explicitly beforehand so that they can incorporate it into their puzzle-solving. The Storyteller’s ultimate goal (aside from making sure everyone is having fun) is to lean towards making the game last to the final night. So while they have rules they have to follow, when given a choice, they typically will lean in favor of the losing team. Once you have a group that plays together enough and the games become too straightforward, that’s when as an ST I will start bending my own decisions and randomizing it slightly more so that you can’t rely on “Storyteller meta” to solve the game.
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May 2, 2024 22:15
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