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tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard
Sleevewise
- Arcane Tinmen make Dragon Shield, which is oriented towards Magic and other CCGS, but also have a range of board game sleeves (Sold as Arcane Tinmen). Their stuff is generally of a very good quality, probably the best in the business. The would be my goto recommendation for anyone looking for card sleeves.
- The FFG sleeves I had in my collection were all very quickly replaced by Arcane Tinman sleeves when I bought my first Arcane Tinman Pack.
- Gamegenic is owned by Asmodee as well, which may be part of the reason why FFG sleeves were discontinued. Their sleeves are good, better than FFG stuff. Their deckboxes are where they truly shine though.

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tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

PRADA SLUT posted:

Bunny Bunny Moose Moose

I seriously thought you were trolling, but no, it's an acutal, honest-to-god Vlaada game.

Man makes everything I swear.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

Jedit posted:

The SA Games Thread podcast just got a name.

Like how the SA 40k group is now Goonhammer?

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard
I've played all but PNW - but SJ and Moon only once.

GB
- Very operationally focused game, very much a chip off the 25/60 block. I think I like this more than both of those; it plays quicker than either of them. The one thing I really appreciate about 25 branch games is how witholding is often a strategic decision rather than a desperation move. Features Double/triple/Quadruple jumps.
NY
- Extremely Cash-rich game with a fairly linear board and relatively similar track development each time. Has Hex Trains and fiddling with minors that usually end up in a pig of a nationalised company (The NYC) but sometimes the NYC is actually lucrative. Minor merging/shenanigan potential.
SJ
- It'sOK. It's a partial cap game with nationalisation and extra track lays for building the designated government route, and 4! different bonuses you can pick up. I tihnk the bonuses are a little too much, the nationalisation is a little too random.

21Moon
- Not a huge fan. It's like a bastard lovechild of 2038 and 1841. Double homes, the ability to split your runs by using different trains from different bases, a weird form of partical capitalisaiton and copany ownership, towns that decrease in value as you go on - just feel there's a lot of different things going on that don't really gel/click, an lots of things done differently just to be different. I may be biased against it because it's an entirely fictional setting.

As for 22PNW
The changes as highlighted by the designer from 22MX (other than the lack of the NdeM) are:
- No concesssions (You have a designated minor that will grow up to be a major, major formation is by merging the minor with the any toher minor) - 7 majors in total.
- Lumber (Works like coal in 1817)
- 2 Megacities, Portland/Seattle, but only one set of value upgrade disks - only one of them can go to $100
- Builder cubes return
- Ski resort private
- 7 trains can outrun Es in specific circumsstances

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Im not sure if this is the right thread:

War of the Ring players, what's the best trick for playing sauron? The person who taught me how to play didnt have me using the Stacking rule so I destroyed him with cartoonish armies with 15+ units on them.

Then I played with a different guy and found the stacking rule. And then my army got poo poo-slaughtered at Minas Tirith, and I rolled eyes and orbs and no mustering or army squares and aragorn kind of just conquered all of mordor while Frodo was smoking a bowl in edoras.

So it seems playing defensively works both ways. Having a big army matters less than having lots of elites, which matters the absolute most.

Also, do leaders and heroes like aragorn count as "army units" or is that just the orange and blue guys?

Minas Tirith/Gondor is, ironically enough, the least productive place to attack in War of the Ring, especially early on.

Sure, there are loads of VPs, but Gondor is fairly big, there are loads of units already in Osgiliath and Minas Tirith at the start of the game, and sieges hurt - they really loving hurt, if the defender has more than a few units in the stronghold. Also, Gondor is more than capable of fighting a war out of Dol Amroth, and there are some truly nasty Free Peoples cards protecting that area (especially cards that will just dump a bunch of units just before you hit a stronghold).

On the other hand, the Northeast corner of the board is extremely vulnerable. Single province strongholds; difficult to defend, you can attack and destroy the Free Peoples piecemeal. You can sweep up the Elves in their scattered strongohlds next - Lorien, is a prime target.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

FulsomFrank posted:

Unsure about the US but while shipping in Canada is fairly prompt and on schedule as far as I'm used to, but I know personally that they are all MEGA-SUPER-DUPER SLAMMED constantly and always lately. Additionally, negotiations with the union for one of Canada's top-3 delivery companies are degrading, which is only going to make things worse.

Mayveena: do you like 22MX more than vanilla 22? I would be tempted to grab 22CA for the setting alone as well.

Don't think I will bite on any of the new AAG stuff right now. None of it really screams essential right now, which is unfortunate. Just need someone to officially announce they're producing The Old Prince so I can get excited for a professional release.

Not Mayveena, but I like 22CA most of the 22s because it really rewards long term planning, and analyzing the board and understanding synergies between the minors, privates and concessions and how they're stacked..

The companies feel a bit more balanced in 22CA than in 22; pretty much all of them are viable in the right circumstances (right minor, right privates), and they all have their own little corners of the board, whereas 22 games tend to result in whatever early companies all getting tokens in to run London->Brum->Manchester and hit secondary tokens. You don't have to police the concession bid to make sure someone doesn't skulk away with the LYR or LBSC; even the GT and GNWR (the two strongest companies in 22CA) need at least some work/some help to really reach their potential. Even the ICR/NTR, arguably the weakest minors in the game, can be good if the right privates/minors come up (all the maritime/East Quebec minors + the Quebec City private)

The map is long, flat and a lot more resctrictive, with more natural chokepoints compared to 22. There are fewer token slots in 22CA vs in 22 (Y cities only go 3 slots in grey, and regular cities never go beyond 2 slots). Most of 22 is fairly open and building around is simple enough, and the terrain most of the time seems to only be there to shaft the minors; 22CA has the gigantic wall of grain towns in the prairies either requiring a grain train/pullman to bypass, or tokens in the key cities, rocky mountain passes, running through the US, all of which feel a lot more meaningful. This feeds into the above with the companies feeling much more distinct than in 22.

The trains are a bit less intersting because its less of a no-brainer to get an E or at least a second train. The extra OR in the last set makes it so the Es/second trains really pay for themselves comapred to 22 or 22MX where the Es may only run once. On the one hand, this helps those who like to build for the late game, but on the other, it does remove an interesting decision point ("is it worth it for me to go for an E over the 7")

22CA can be punishing but is less so than 22; 22 has "trap" minors that have prohibiitve terrain costs, which mean that they will spend so much time with their early L train (in '22, minors start with an L train, which you can upgrade to a regular 2 train for $80) that you'll lost the game starting them, where as 22CA has trap minors that are able to upgrade their train just fine, but are so stuck in the middle of nowhere that they won't be able to hook up to a major to be eaten before the 4s come out. Except M23. Don't start M23.


22MX is a little gentler than both by comparision; the smaller map and builder cubes (terrain discounts you get by forfeiting track lays) help make the game a little more forgiving. It's shorter than either 22CA or 22 as well becasue it has a 22MRS-esque train roster (instead of 6 instead of 9 3-trains, 4 instead of 6 4-trains etc.), but the lack of concession variability does make it a tad less interesting.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

Tekopo posted:

Buying as many trains as possible and running everything for a quick buck in the short-term is the way to play.

Not having a permanent is a problem for future you. Or future someone else.

Yeah, it's an unstable equilibirum. If someone starts pushing trains, everyone has to start pushing trains otherwise they fall behind to the person pushing trains (more trains = more money).

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

FulsomFrank posted:

Can some Train Barons here please come to my rescue and explain to me wtf the strategy is in 1822 and its variants. So far my understanding seems to be:

- acquire minor(s)
- acquire concessions that are close to those minor(s)
- acquire private companies that don't suck
- don't overbid for any of them

I consistently come in distant second or worse and it is killing me because the game seems so completely operational in nature that I'm wondering if I'm just spending too much money in the initial auctions that it's hamstringing me in future SRs.

22 is a game about synergy; it's getting a minor that works well your concessions, and getting privates that work well with both the above (some privates - like the mail contract, permanent trains, 10xphase work well with anyone, but, for example, a Pullman isn't much use if you've just got cities in your area). If you're not looking at the upcoming bid stacks, you're playing 22 wrong.

A lot of it is understanding which minors are good and which majors are good, and either getting them, or forcing your opponent to pay through the nose for them. You can win with a worse company if your opponent paid a £70 premium for his LYR presidency but you got the Midland for face value. The big issue with 22 that make it hard to parse for people new to the game, is what major is good can depend on what track (and what minors) have come out - for exmaple, GWR is a bit of a dog without a friend to build track for it, because the bits of west of London are mostly empty, but with, say, a friendly M17 or an M18 to build track for it, it becomes a lot more valuable.

And this is where we come back to the bid stack - it tells you where the track is getting built. Companies near lots of track are usually in 18xx stornger than companies stuck out on their own in the middle of nowhere, so even if a company is a bit of a dog normally, like the SWR, if the Minor stack has Ms19-23 all clumped together very clsoe to the top, the SWR becomes a lot more viable (not good - but like, something you'd accept as a second prize if you got outbid for the LYR).

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

FulsomFrank posted:

A question for the veteran train engineers here:

Recently a friend of mine introduced the light of life that is 18xx to his friends and gaming circle many hundreds of kilometers away from here, a missionary spreading the Good Word in a way. Only issue is that there appears to be a particular focus, almost dogmatically so, in the scripture he presented in relationship to Stock Trashing.

Long story short, one player in particular is obsessed completely with stock trashing, to the point that I don't think I'll ever play another game with him again. To give a taste, we played a 4P game of Off the Rails on .games that managed to turn into a WEEK LONG ASYNC GAME of fairly robust call/response because every stock round (of which there were not many, it was OTR for God's sake) became a slog of:

- Buy 10% in Corp A
- wait for everyone to do whatever
- Buy 10% more in Corp A
- Sell 20% of Corp A
- wait for everyone to do whatever
- Buy 10% in Corp B...
(obviously only in sell/buy/sell or buy/sell games)

He seems to do this routinely in every game of 18x I have ever seen him play. He does not win. The stock trashing basically just moves everyone down semi-uniformly so there's little-to-no alteration to the operating order, at least in any meaningful sense that I can discern. The worst part is that because he does it, now everyone has to respond in kind and proceed to do it to his corporation(s) and/or everyone else. It is brutal, I've never seen anything like it. I understand the broad value of trashing wrt hurting stock price, liquidity etc. but this appears vaguely random and just Number Go Down on the stock price.

This dude recently started a game of 1849 and I thought surely this strategy will be useless in a inc cap game because you're throwing cash into the company and the corp can buy back shares after operating but no, it seems to not only be effective per se but definitely viable as buying the stock back is still an investment especially in a poor game like 49 and just gives another chance to get trashed again (at least with more capitalising). Also, shares left in the market are even more painful because no pay-outs from them and a stock price slide.

So beyond everyone colluding and basically making life miserable in SR's by nuking his share price, are there any really viable responses to this constant, never ending stock trashing as far as I can tell is mostly pointless? I guess I can just not play with him but I'd prefer to have an in-game response that handles it nicely because I have never seen anything like it.

Yes, the main thing way this is policed is to go tit-for-tat with stock prices, actively obstruct their routes (tragic track, tokens), or, especially in 18xx.games, flat out tell them that you are not planning on playing with them again.

You could try to convince them with an arugment that Stock trashing (when not for running order purposes) is essentially pointless and can actually hjelp the trashee in 30/full cap games because market shares pay the company (I believe, in fact, that this was implemented directly in order to do this). In partial cap games, it can hurt a bit more, but most partial cap games also have double jumps to allow you to make up stock trashes, and in many cases, if you get an opportunity to redeem your share, your company comes out stronger.

The biggest downside of stock trashing, of course, is you no longer can have that share paying you money and gaining you increment in the operating rounds, and you're effectively giving a nice discount to your opponents on said share, and you're almost certainly going to be last in the next SR.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

Bottom Liner posted:

Is this people doing it in a way that hurts others but doesn't help them directly? Or out of ignorance? If neither of those, yeah, that's pointless but also if it doesn't hurt anyone it's just a bad move, so I'm not sure it deserves retribution?

Or is it a matter of grinding these longer games to a crawl?

It often hurts others because in most 18xxs, selling drops the share price. If you have 6x $100 shares, and someone sells twice, they become 6x $80 shares, whereas the seller usually sells at the higher ($100) price so they don't lose any value.

If nobody does it, it's fine. If someone does it to everyone else but has their shares left untouched, they've just gotten themself an edge in terms of value, in theory.

In practice what it usually means is that the other players in the game will jump on the cheap shares that the stock-trasher just sold - so the people who lose out are people who already have shares in the company. Meaning they now have an incentive to go trash the original trasher's company to make them poorer as well.

In the end, everyone gets trashed, and ends up poorer, which may be a legitimate aim or strategy (because less cash = less new companies = slower train rush), but there is a group of players who do it every time without thinking.

It also has the effect of breaking the auto-pass function in the .games website. A lot of people program an auto-pass/auto-buy, and any share sales triggers the auto-pass/auto-buy to break (as it should!), which makes the round take a lot longer.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard
tbh, I think it's because we're all being way too picky with minors after having played PNW/CA/MX where minors are good if you can rescue them, to 22 where this very much is not the case. In most of the other 22 games, a minor running for 30 in Phase 1 is mediocre. In 22, it's good if it can upgrade its train before it rusts.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

taser rates posted:

I'm kind of the opposite opinion, the more of the 22likes i play the more I just like the original 22 over the rest. They're all doing the same thing fundamentally, just with more unnecessary stuff bolted on with each new version.

I think I'd like 22 more if the minors were just better. Stuff like:
Make Newcastle (M4's home), and Sheffield (M8's home) Y Cities - would help make the game less about London/Birmingham/manchester.
Move either M26/M9 from Hull/Grimsby to Nottingham (right next to the Midland) or something.
Remove the Random Swamp from Norwich (M25's home)
Add extra prongs to M26/M9's home so it can be upgraded to green without paying that stupid bridge terrain cost.
Add extra prongs to Carlisle (Caledonian's Destination) so it can actually go brown/grey.
Mid Wales (M29's home) and Highlands (M2's home) should be uprated to 20/20 in yellow/green to make them at least worth considering.
Delete M6 from existence (I have never, ever seen anyone deliberately build to Barrow).

tomdidiot fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Mar 31, 2024

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

FulsomFrank posted:

Thanks for the heads up on Neb, sounds right up my group's alley.

I am notorious at this point in the same group for disliking 1822 and its degenerate spawn, not because I think they're bad games (even a bad 18xx is usually better than most dry 4 hour track climbing cube pushing euros IN MY OPINION) but because I find them generally so procedural and slow. The auction should be the meat and potatoes where you jockey for position and make people pay for theirs but we almost always play online and it's brrrruuutttaaaalll. I have come to the conclusion that I will only ever play these games in person. It may not fix my main issues with the game regarding the loop (get minor that doesn't suck, get concession/major that connects to them, run trains until cows come home etc blah blah) but at least it's interesting and fun and FASTER doing that in person rather than async on .games.

Also just winding up a 4P game of 1828 that I think I'm the only one who doesn't mind it. It's definitely a weird game and I don't understand mergers really but it feels like 1830 by way of an obsessive fan of the genre, someone with hard opinions who has been thinking and arguing about the genre and board games as a whole for years... I think it's designed to be a bankruptcy simulator and we played too conservatively but it's ending via the final 4(!) ORs, much to the chagrin of all the two people who are way, way behind.

Also wrapping up a game of 1848 that I am enjoying and would happily play again. Screwed up not buying BoE shares at first chance though and trying to rush trains in lieu of holding onto a well positioned company but it's still very close.

Asynch 1822 needs a tacit agreement by players to do multiple moves a day or, yes it does get very painful.

tomdidiot fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Apr 2, 2024

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard
I’ve played loads of weird Doublr Os. Nothing. In those prepared me for the mindfuck of 21Moon.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

taser rates posted:

18USA uses 17 as a base, but bigger and with random setup. It has like a bazillion privates that you select a random subset of for each game, three resources that do slightly different things like 17's coal, randomized offboard values, and randomized Pittsburghs (aka metropolises). There are some other structural changes to the game, but it's basically a far richer 17, for better or for worse.

I like the Volatility expansion for 17, it changes the private auction up a bit and also adds a bunch of privates, but not to like the ridiculous extent that 18USA has.

18NY is a decent minors-merging-into-state-railway type game, one of the more interesting things is that you're always allowed to voluntarily discard a train from a company into the bank pool, which opens up train space and refunds you a quarter of the purchase cost.

Harzbahn 1873 is a very strange game, unlike regular 18xx where it's just about running train companies, Harzbahn introduces mining companies as well, which have their own required infrastructure. The two types of companies are symbiotic, since mines ultimately want to connect to the rail network, and train companies get revenue bonuses for running to active mines. Trains and miners never rust, but they do eventually incur increasingly punishing maintenance costs as they age. The opening auction is really tricky too, because every mine plus the concessions for the first two companies gets auctioned off.

1860 is also a strange beast. The map is incredibly tight, and companies only open up in bands of 2 at a time. You're also allowed to sell the president's cert to the pool, companies don't have a train obligation, and companies that fall trainless are allowed to borrow a train from the market to withhold with, all of which open up quite a few tricks. It shares some DNA with 1862 since that is a later game by the same designer, but they play completely differently.
18NY also has two fun features in the Erie Canal (a private that pays $100 a turn! but goes down as the canal hexes get built), and hex trains.

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard
Minis games also drive more internet engagement because “look at this sweet mini I just painted” is something people are a lot more keen to share to “look at my sweet Agricola engine”

tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

Magnetic North posted:

Yeah, it is not...

That being said: we had the same MTG fights back in the day about conceding, and it was from the most old-school MTG poo poo you can imagine. If you conceded after an attack step but before damage, someone would not gain life from their Spirit Links. This was before Lifelink was keyworded and made more commonplace but Armadillo Cloak had been printed. That should show how long ago this was.

A lot of playgroups play with a "scooping happens at sorcery speed" to stop this exact pettiness issue.

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tomdidiot
Apr 23, 2014

Stupid Grognard

Tekopo posted:

I haven't tried them yet in person so I'll have to see how it goes. I've played 1822 in person ages ago though (and was pretty ambivalent to it), and being in person does at least fix one of the major issues that I have with playing asynch, which is that the auction/SRs are interminable when playing on 18xx.games. As for the chrome of MX/PNW, I'll have to see how it goes on Saturday.

In my experience, 22MX plays pretty well in person. The fact that the SR1 auctions take 20 minutes instead of 20 days makes a huge difference. You can also play more tactically placing only one bid cube at a time, rather than playing suboptimally (placing multiple bid cubes)

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