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Sodomy Hussein posted:I think it's worth noting that even most conservatives thought 1/6 was repulsive... At the time. I have very Trumpy in-laws who were revolted. This is supposed to be the party of law, order, and the common man, not cro-magnon hooligans killing cops. Will they still be voting Republican at the next opportunity? Because I would expect the answer is yes, which would seem to mean that they only object to the lack of tact, not the fascism. Apologies to your very Trumpy in-laws if they're the few ex-Republicans that have something approaching morality.
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Jan 4, 2022 01:43
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Lol but who else are they gonna vote for? Democrats? Lmao
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Jan 4, 2022 02:05
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I think it's worth noting that even most conservatives thought 1/6 was repulsive... At the time. I have very Trumpy in-laws who were revolted. This is supposed to be the party of law, order, and the common man, not cro-magnon hooligans killing cops. Right, but keep in mind they had to wait 24 or 48 hours for Hannity and everyone to explain what really happened that the media left out and why it actually wasn't all that bad so please don't be ashamed of being a Trump voter because ... Even though I watched it with my own eyes on live streams with no media filter whatsoever as it happened, similar to a lot of BLM protests.
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Jan 4, 2022 02:13
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I just view it as the Beer Hall Putsch of America, something that had zero way of ever succeeding but will also embolden more successful attempts as everyone involved in organizing it gets a slap on the wrist at best and absolutely nothing at all is done about the conditions that led to it and people who supported it. The opposition is too busy fighting itself or being loving useless in every concievable way and are too concerned with decorum, appeasement and not being too insulting to (GOP) voters because they might come back...? Except maybe worse because even Hitler had to spend nine months in prison writing a lovely book. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 05:28
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Bel Shazar posted:Will they still be voting Republican at the next opportunity? Because I would expect the answer is yes, which would seem to mean that they only object to the lack of tact, not the fascism. Dinner table topics are only political when the political becomes the unavoidable, such as on 1/6, and the family has been distracted with other issues in the last few years, so the short answer is I don't know. I will say this, there's a lot of talk about Republicans in here as if lefties are the only ones who are incredulous of their elected representatives. I don't think there's a lot of people voting for Trump because of who he is, but because of what he represents to them. If he begins to represent endless mayhem, he may not storm back in so easily. This matters because I think the '24 election will be a very, very ugly campaign. The Trump campaign is not going to be shy and his core of support is even more radical now. There's only so much bullshit Hannity can smooth over.
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Jan 4, 2022 09:59
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I think we can all agree that it is pretty dope Donnie got away with saying Bullshit on CNN. https://twitter.com/donie/status/1478195004317347841?s=20 It is the last question he asks in the video if that is all you want to see.
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Jan 4, 2022 15:05
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syntaxrigger posted:I think we can all agree that it is pretty dope Donnie got away with saying Bullshit on CNN. Boy, we really have to reach out to these people and find some common ground. - The Democrats
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Jan 4, 2022 17:11
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DarkCrawler posted:I just view it as the Beer Hall Putsch of America, something that had zero way of ever succeeding but will also embolden more successful attempts as everyone involved in organizing it gets a slap on the wrist at best and absolutely nothing at all is done about the conditions that led to it and people who supported it. The opposition is too busy fighting itself or being loving useless in every concievable way and are too concerned with decorum, appeasement and not being too insulting to (GOP) voters because they might come back...? IMO the results of the January riot was actually quite the opposite: the right really had the wind taken out of their sails for a few months. Every major politician abandoned the movement save a handful of loonies, the general public was aghast, Trump even lost his Twitter account (the greatest tragedy from that day). The backlash was so bad that they had to publicly abandon their Trump rallying cry and adopt a new one against vaccine mandates. The right is currently trying to regain all the ground they lost as a result of that election and the following poo poo show.
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Jan 4, 2022 17:37
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Cpt_Obvious posted:IMO the results of the January riot was actually quite the opposite: the right really had the wind taken out of their sails for a few months. Every major politician abandoned the movement save a handful of loonies, the general public was aghast, Trump even lost his Twitter account (the greatest tragedy from that day). I feel like that narrative ignores the part where McConnell tried to toss Trump to the side and the rank and file wouldn't let that happen, after which the party doubled down on Trump.
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Jan 4, 2022 18:20
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Dpulex posted:I get that our corporate overlords would never let a real coup happen because it's bad for business, but plenty of chuds still support 1/6, I wouldn't call support "overwhelmingly negative" There's some evidence that Republicans have warmed up to it since then: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/attitudes-jan-6-capitol-attack-settle-along-familiar-partisan-lines-n1277534 And other evidence that half of all Republicans are embarrassed by it: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/02/house-jan-6-committee-popular-republicans-526092 Though in any poll you look at since it took place, the majority of Americans have had an overall negative view.
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Jan 4, 2022 18:36
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That one lady who says the election was definitely stolen, and also that no Republican would ever riot about it is fascinating. If she actually believes that what's the point of any politics, she already lives in a dictatorship, she thinks overthrowing a dictatorship is always wrong, so game over for her ideology I guess. I guess I know the answer, she doesn't believe any of it. She doesn't believe the election is stolen or an insurrection would be justified, and she doesn't believe the insurrection was a false flag because there's no need to fake an uprising after you steal an election. If there's no uprising that's good for you.
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Jan 4, 2022 18:36
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Bel Shazar posted:I feel like that narrative ignores the part where McConnell tried to toss Trump to the side and the rank and file wouldn't let that happen, after which the party doubled down on Trump. Can you be more specific? What do you mean the party "doubled down on trump"? How did McConnell backtrack?
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Jan 4, 2022 18:48
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Can you be more specific? What do you mean the party "doubled down on trump"? How did McConnell backtrack? I should have kept a diary. My recollection is republican leadership started pulling way back from Trump during the election but then Georgia went into a runoff and they couldn't afford to alienate voters to they tried to run without going against Trump. Then Jan 6 and the polling for Trump's support within the party stayed incredibly high, trump was acquitted, and everyone's on about how Trump is still the leader of the party.
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Jan 4, 2022 18:54
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A lot of the GOP may be embarrassed, but had 1/6 been successful they would've toed the line.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:02
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I've gone back-and-forth over the last year on whether 1/6 was "American democracy's darkest day" and right now I'd definitely say "no," and can even find a good bit of humor in the ridiculousness of the whole event. But I do think it will wind up being an inflection point in the future trajectory of our politics and government. The murder of the Gracchi, Marius' military reforms and standing for the consulship several times in succession, Sulla marching on Rome, etc. etc. etc. didn't each individually end the Roman Republic, and it's probably impossible to point to a specific thing or time that did, but those were all factors. 1/6 will wind up being one of many factors--some of which have probably already transpired--that influences where ever the gently caress the U.S. is going.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:11
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TipTow posted:I've gone back-and-forth over the last year on whether 1/6 was "American democracy's darkest day" and right now I'd definitely say "no," and can even find a good bit of humor in the ridiculousness of the whole event. But I do think it will wind up being an inflection point in the future trajectory of our politics and government. The murder of the Gracchi, Marius' military reforms and standing for the consulship several times in succession, Sulla marching on Rome, etc. etc. etc. didn't each individually end the Roman Republic, and it's probably impossible to point to a specific thing or time that did, but those were all factors. 1/6 will wind up being one of many factors--some of which have probably already transpired--that influences where ever the gently caress the U.S. is going. 2000 election, 9/11, financial crisis, Covid, 1/6 We're rackin' 'em up!
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Jan 4, 2022 19:20
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Mellow Seas posted:2000 election, 9/11, financial crisis, Covid, 1/6 Billy Joel wrote a song about this https://youtu.be/bCs2XHDtB0w Bel Shazar fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 19:23
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Bel Shazar posted:I should have kept a diary. Thanks for responding. I think we're mostly disagreeing on details. The January riot did create a hiccup that caused most mainstream R politicians to back away from pro Trump messaging even if they later doubled down when the coast was clear. CommieGIR posted:A lot of the GOP may be embarrassed, but had 1/6 been successful they would've toed the line. What would a victory even looked like? Who would have had the legitimacy to swing the election? Would the Q anon shaman have been the speaker of the house? Would he change the dress code so he could show up shirtless in animal furs?
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Jan 4, 2022 19:32
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It's basically a tautology that if 1/6 had been successful that the GOP would have supported it, because the only way 1/6 was going to be successful is if the GOP had been on board with blatantly* stealing the election in the first place and overruled the elections at the state level (making the actual riot unnecessary) As others have pointed out the idea of a bunch of jet setting cowards who ran at the first sound of bullets conquering a nation of 300 million people is ridiculous. That is a fantasy novel/video game outcome where power derives from pulling a magic thingamajing out of a thing in the climax of the plot. *Blatantly being state governments openly passing laws awarding the EVs to Trump against the will of the voters, as opposed to deniably stealing it by stopping the count while they were ahead a la 2000, something which they were hoping to do but couldn't because Trump lost by too much to make that possible
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Jan 4, 2022 19:43
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Thanks for responding. It was really one of the most authentic responses I've seen. Opportunism kicked back in... unfortunately quickly.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:48
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If we're talking about the reality of overturning the election by force then the military is going to have to at least be on board. And after the Venezuela and Iran debacles along with Trump agreeing to pull out of Afghanistan, I'd imagine they'd rather be taking orders from Biden.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:49
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Bel Shazar posted:Billy Joel wrote a song about this An idea: We didn't start the fire, but it's just things that happened in 2020. The perfect way to create a horrible song that no one would enjoy! Follow up and idea: a Hamilton style musical about 1/6, Lin-Manuel Miranda plays Trump. Do you think Netflix would buy that? Should I start taking to an agent? I can't keep giving out this kind of gold for free.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:52
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Bel Shazar posted:It was really one of the most authentic responses I've seen. Opportunism kicked back in... unfortunately quickly. Reminds me of the Hollywood Access tape "oh poo poo this is going to piss people off, better disavow this guy...oh wait nobody else cares either...oh poo poo the people love it, well so do I always have!" the MAGA version of this comic 
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Jan 4, 2022 19:55
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:An idea: We didn't start the fire, but it's just things that happened in 2020. Murder Hornets allows for a drat good rhyme scheme. Definitely run with this. The song, at least. I think the musical would take too long to produce and the coming Republican Congress and Trump presidency will be too absurd on their own.
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Jan 4, 2022 19:57
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Cpt_Obvious posted:If we're talking about the reality of overturning the election by force then the military is going to have to at least be on board. And after the Venezuela and Iran debacles along with Trump agreeing to pull out of Afghanistan, I'd imagine they'd rather be taking orders from Biden. The military was willing to go with whichever way the winds blew, otherwise we might've seen more of a response. The civilians that were in charge of the military were more than willing to give the orders had Trump actually told them what to do. 1/6 was less a failure of the coup, more proof that Trump is as usual unwilling to commit to things and really didn't have the motivation to do anything but throw a semi-violent tantrum using his followers.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:00
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CommieGIR posted:The military was willing to go with whichever way the winds blew, If you really believe this why is General Milley still working, he's literally an opportunistically disloyal traitor according to you, probably shouldn't be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs then idk man E: well maybe not that weird, in Weimar most of the officers who did the 1920 Kapp Putsch were let completely alone and even granted concessions to their demands, mostly because the SDP needed them to massacre the workers that didn't go home and VOTE after the general strike that toppled the coup regime, a decision which would have momentous consequences a decade or so later later when the Nazis regime came to power and used those same officers to overthrow Social Democrat state governments, so hey at least the Dems are respecting precedent here VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 4, 2022 |
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Jan 4, 2022 20:02
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VitalSigns posted:If you really believe this why is General Milley still working, he's literally an opportunistically disloyal traitor according to you, probably shouldn't be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs then idk man General Milley is one guy, and probably one of the few, actually willing to fight it. The Civilian leadership that the military takes their orders from was heavily Trump corrupted. This is the same military that allowed Trump to use them as foot stools during the BLM marches.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:14
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Bel Shazar posted:Murder Hornets allows for a drat good rhyme scheme. Definitely run with this. The song, at least. I think the musical would take too long to produce and the coming Republican Congress and Trump presidency will be too absurd on their own. Yeah, in order for the musical to work I'd have to time travel like 200 years in the future to be able to fully comprehend and process all the things that have and are about to unfold and work them into a cohesive narrative. Perhaps, many decades from now, cyborg Lin-Manuel Miranda shall create what I can not... Cpt_Obvious posted:IMO the results of the January riot was actually quite the opposite: the right really had the wind taken out of their sails for a few months. Every major politician abandoned the movement save a handful of loonies, the general public was aghast, Trump even lost his Twitter account (the greatest tragedy from that day). As a result of this the anti-vax movement has pretty much taken over the entire hardcore Trump base. The fear of "clout shots" is so great that Trump was boo-ed at an event for saying you should get vaccinated. If Trump wants to win he's going to need to go hard on the whole "THE COVID VACCINE IS FULL OF POISON!" angle, which I strongly suspect he's willing to do.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:18
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:As a result of this the anti-vax movement has pretty much taken over the entire hardcore Trump base. The fear of "clout shots" is so great that Trump was boo-ed at an event for saying you should get vaccinated. I heard a clip from one of his rallies and he appears to be trying to thread the needle between taking credit for Operation Warp Speed and also "don't take the vaccine if you don't want to."
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Jan 4, 2022 20:26
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CommieGIR posted:General Milley is one guy, and probably one of the few, actually willing to fight it. The Civilian leadership that the military takes their orders from was heavily Trump corrupted. Wait so if not Milley who in the pentagon brass is just waiting for an illegal order to overthrow the government in order to commit treason?! Why are they not being investigated and cashiered at the very least if not charged? Holy poo poo if this is what you believe Biden is leaving an insurrectionist officer corps in charge of the biggest military machine on earth, are you just hoping Democrats never lose the White House again or the next Republican is too nice to order a coup or what.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:29
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VitalSigns posted:Wait so if not Milley who in the pentagon brass is just waiting for an illegal order to overthrow the government in order to commit treason?! You are over complicating it: The idea that most military officers are willing and going to disobey orders is incredibly rare. We've seen it time and again if orders come down its far more likely the military will carry them out rather than debate the ramifications of said order or the constitutionality of them. 
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Jan 4, 2022 20:32
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CommieGIR posted:You are over complicating it: The idea that most military officers are willing and going to disobey orders is incredibly rare. We've seen it time and again if orders come down its far more likely the military will carry them out rather than debate the ramifications of said order or the constitutionality of them. Well then I don't know why you're handwringing about 1/6 so much it was a total non-issue compared to the real threat, and the real threat is that apparently if the president says "eh go murder congress and inaugurate me president for life" the military will just do it. I don't think the QAnon shaman is going to be the decisive asset in that battle lol Kinda validates the Founder's distrust of a standing military, but if it's impossible to purge the officer corps of disloyal individuals, maybe we shouldn't have a standing army, is the ability to bomb Syrian kindergartens on a whim really worth it idk
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Jan 4, 2022 20:38
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VitalSigns posted:Well then I don't know why you're handwringing about 1/6 so much it was a total non-issue compared to the real threat, and the real threat is that apparently if the president says "eh go murder congress and inaugurate me president for life" the military will just do it. Nobody here is pretending anything about the QAnon shaman, or did you think the entirety of the group was made up of whackjobs, or are we ignoring the few who were very much coming in with the intent and purpose to find legislators, if not the Vice President, and hold them hostage if not execute them?  Yeah, its totally the QAnon shaman we're worried about here.
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Jan 4, 2022 20:41
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody here is pretending anything about the QAnon shaman, or did you think the entirety of the group was made up of whackjobs, or are we ignoring the few who were very much coming in with the intent and purpose to find legislators, if not the Vice President, and hold them hostage if not execute them? Again, why is that guy necessary for the military to take over. You are asserting that if Trump or any Republican president orders the military to murder congress and carry out a coup they'll do it (and bizarrely, when I ask "well do we need to clean house" you're just like meh it's fine we can't start cashiering officers in the military for unreliability in a crisis  ), if Trump or the next Republican can order the military to murder the elected government what do they need zip tie guy for lolIs AOC going to be out there punching through tanks with superstrength until zip tie guy creeps up behind her and binds her like Samson?
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Jan 4, 2022 20:46
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VitalSigns posted:Again, why is that guy necessary for the military to take over. That isn't remotely what I said and at this point VS you are just making up talking points.
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Jan 4, 2022 21:20
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CommieGIR posted:That isn't remotely what I said and at this point VS you are just making up talking points. You said that 1/6 almost succeeded because Trump could order the military to overthrow the elected government and they'd all do it (except General Milley I guess): Y/N Or what are you saying. If the military wouldn't follow an order to overthrow the government then how did 1/6 almost succeed? How are the rioters in any way relevant to the question of whether the military would overthrow democracy if ordered to and whether they would succeed, again pretty sure the army doesn't need zip tie guy to help them shoot congress, the military has a lot of guns and stuff, and it's not like Nancy Pelosi is a Taliban fighter who can actually kick their rear end.
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Jan 4, 2022 21:22
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OP I feel like you might be tilting the debate slightly by having the pro-1/6-hysteria argument be a post that begins "The US is the lynchpin for democracy,"
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Jan 4, 2022 21:23
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some plague rats posted:OP I feel like you might be tilting the debate slightly by having the pro-1/6-hysteria argument be a post that begins "The US is the lynchpin for democracy," I tried to find the best argument I could to steelman it, if I missed a better one from the CE thread feel free to  I'll even edit it into the OP if you want
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Jan 4, 2022 21:26
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VitalSigns posted:I tried to find the best argument I could to steelman it, if I missed a better one from the CE thread feel free to No no I think it's perfect, the pro-hysteria argument being completely politically and historically illiterate is on point
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Jan 4, 2022 21:29
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VitalSigns posted:You said that 1/6 almost succeeded because Trump could order the military to overthrow the elected government and they'd all do it (except General Milley I guess): Y/N "Hi, NORAD? It's me, Tayleb Shart, owner of Shart's Ski-Doos, northern Ohio's #1 personal watercraft dealership for over ten years. Anyway me 'n' the boys took over the big government building so I'm going to need you to go ahead and nuke commiefornia. That's an order!"
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