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Gumball Gumption posted:Here's more examples of where it can't just be "Yeah, it's concerning we're arming Nazis but it makes sense in the short term and they'll need to be cracked down on in the long term" but that it needs to be praised as the moral good. Asking which is the more moral decision is not "praising as the moral good". It's a pretty simple question, actually, and it doesn't require any metaphors or whatabouts or anything else. Given that Putin has all but explicitly declared his intent to culturally genocide Ukraine, given the history of Russia-Ukraine relations (ie actual genocide of Ukranians within living memory), and given that weapons donated to Ukraine will end up in the hands of Ukranian Nazis (I will not even quibble over the amount of Nazis!), is it more moral (not "good" mind you, more moral) to donate weapons to Ukraine or not? edit: re, policy arguments. Same question, if you prefer to view it through that lens. Is it better policy to allow one nation state to attempt to freely commit unprovoked cultural genocide, or better policy to assist a state in an existential war of defense if some of that assistance will go to Nazis. idiotsavant fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 22:23
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Gumball Gumption posted:Elizabeth Bruenig has explained my point here better than I can - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/dsa-ukraine-statement-anti-war/627086/ What point is that? It seemed like you were talking about supplying weapons to Ukraine in prior posts and this article doesn't even really touch on that. It's more about [being against] direct intervention. As a side note, that reads more of a praise for Biden's handling of this situation than DSA. Especially because DSA called for a halt to sanctions and Bruenig seems okay-ish with sanctions. Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Mar 20, 2022 |
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Mar 20, 2022 22:23
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Terminal autist posted:What are you implying here that pieces of poo poo shouldn't have legal representation or does the gay and jewish man have some sort of ulterior motive? I'm saying it's ironic that these morons completely misrepresenting our position of "yeah we should support Ukraine" as "it's morally good to arm nazis" are using Glenn Greenwald as their example of a good flawed-leftist when he provided legal defense for Nazis (and he's not a loving leftist).
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Mar 20, 2022 22:27
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Policy wise I think then a good compromise for both sides of the left would be that if/when Ukraine pushes Russia out funds to rebuild will be dependent on de-arming far right groups who were armed as part of the war.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:27
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Gumball Gumption posted:Policy wise I think then a good compromise for both sides of the left would be that if/when Ukraine pushes Russia out funds to rebuild will be dependent on de-arming far right groups who were armed as part of the war. That seems like a perfectly fine solution, but posters like Yeowch My Balls don't seem to be arguing that position.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:32
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idiotsavant posted:That seems like a perfectly fine solution, but posters like Yeowch My Balls don't seem to be arguing that position. Neither were you which is why I proposed a compromise. We're doing some debating and discussing.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:34
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GreyjoyBastard posted:There's also just the question of, uh, exactly how many Nazis. Unless my information is EXTRAORDINARILY out of date, Azov Battalion numbers in the low single thousands. Three thousand Nazis getting fancy American weapons in direct contravention of our instructions to Ukraine on the topic is bad. It's also a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the Ukrainian military getting aid. Prior to the Russian invasion, Azov Battalion had a strength of less than one thousand. Could well be more than that now, no way to know as that will be part of opsec. The Ukrainian national parliament has one PM from neo-Nazi Svoboda party out of 450 seats. Regional parliaments have about 3% representation from Svoboda. So official neo-Nazi presence in Ukraine totaled 1/450 seats in the national parliament, about 3% of regional parliament seats, and less than 1000 fighters in Azov at the start of the invasion.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:39
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Gumball Gumption posted:Policy wise I think then a good compromise for both sides of the left would be that if/when Ukraine pushes Russia out funds to rebuild will be dependent on de-arming far right groups who were armed as part of the war. honestly just packaging it as "all national guard units need to turn their arms back in to the principal, you can pick them up next time Russia invades" seems a reasonable implementation the reason Azov Battalion got off the ground in the first place was basically "they're on the Donbas front lines and also we don't really want to turn frontline pro govt troops into extremely anti govt troops while there's still a lukewarm to very spicy regional civil war", which, fair enough
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Mar 20, 2022 22:39
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idiotsavant posted:So you would agree, then, that given the choice between giving an invaded country weapons to defend themselves against plainly stated cultural genocide, some of which will end up in the hands of Nazis, and standing by to let that cultural genocide occur as it may, the latter is the more moral decision?? when the argument for preventing cultural genocide concludes 'and therefore it's fine to arm neo-not-applicable-theyve-been-onboard-since-the-40s nazis' I question whether the morality of genocide is actually the subject being debated. cultural or otherwise.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:40
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Legitimate question, what's wrong with sending aid to militia's that aren't fascists? Why are the choices "send aid" or "don't send aid at all"?Gumball Gumption posted:Policy wise I think then a good compromise for both sides of the left would be that if/when Ukraine pushes Russia out funds to rebuild will be dependent on de-arming far right groups who were armed as part of the war. I doubt the far right groups will give away their equipment willingly, or is there something I'm missing here?
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Mar 20, 2022 22:42
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GreyjoyBastard posted:honestly just packaging it as "all national guard units need to turn their arms back in to the principal, you can pick them up next time Russia invades" seems a reasonable implementation a statement that depends VERY heavily on where you put the marker for 'first place,' that Bandera was, politely speaking, a real colorful character.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:42
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punk rebel ecks posted:Legitimate question, what's wrong with sending aid to militia's that aren't fascists? Why are the choices "send aid" or "don't send aid at all"? Current American/NATO policy is that none of the weapons and suchnot we give the Ukrainian military can be distributed to the national guard elements that are Nazis. Compliance with that requirement seems... imperfect. But the distribution is basically on the Ukrainians afaik. and yes if they don't disarm when the govt asks nicely there are some obvious choices coming up
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Mar 20, 2022 22:47
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Compliance with that requirement seems... imperfect. Why is this? Is it because Ukraine is desperate enough to give weapons to anyone, or because it's difficult to keep tracking of who you are handing weapons to during the chaos of an active conflict in your own borders?
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Mar 20, 2022 22:49
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I'd be incredibly interested in the Ukrainian logistics decisions that are leading to Azov getting the alleged NATO gear. Are the logistics officers incompetent? Are they corrupt? Can they simply not be assed to track what goes where when they're extremely busy trying to keep their country from being conquered?punk rebel ecks posted:Why is this? see above 
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Mar 20, 2022 22:50
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punk rebel ecks posted:Legitimate question, what's wrong with sending aid to militia's that aren't fascists? Why are the choices "send aid" or "don't send aid at all"? They probably won't and this will need to be done forcibly which has it's own implications and problems but again, we're in this mess and every solution is imperfect. Ukraine has had no problem shutting down pro-Russian and just generally corrupt political parties so I see them willing to do this though they may need assistance. Though honestly I doubt the US or NATO will request anything like this.
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Mar 20, 2022 22:55
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punk rebel ecks posted:Why is this? little of column a little of column b. the Ukranian government's already hit the 'if you want to get some small arms just hit us up, we trust you'll know what to do with them" point of desperation, complete with proud PR pieces showing children being handed rifles. This is not a move a government makes if they even -think- they can keep track of weapons anymore. the situation is an absolute fractal of horror- pretty much anywhere you look, the answers to your questions get worse.
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Mar 20, 2022 23:08
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:little of column a little of column b. the Ukranian government's already hit the 'if you want to get some small arms just hit us up, we trust you'll know what to do with them" point of desperation, complete with proud PR pieces showing children being handed rifles. This is not a move a government makes if they even -think- they can keep track of weapons anymore. Yeah, it really is a shame that Russa has caused this.
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Mar 20, 2022 23:10
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah, it really is a shame that Russa has caused this. yup, when a third party tells a little guy 'no really, I got your back against the big guy, trust me, we got this' and the big guy reacts by beating the little guy up, he is absolutely in the wrong, no matter how much of a side-eye the third party might get. what's the quote? "It's worse than a crime, it's a blunder?" my personal guess is that the ukranians started the whole open arms distribution thing back when everyone thought Kiev was going to fall inside of a week or two, and now they're in the awkward/terrifying position of having let the genie of far right paramilitary action out of the bottle and not being sure how to get him back in. I would not be shocked to hear that part of the holdup in negotiations is Ukraine hoping Russia clears the worst ones out of Mauripol, because if I'm Zelensky I now have to treat the threat of being assassinated by someone claiming that the terms I agreed to proves I was a Russian puppet all along very, very seriously. particularly now that i've given them anti-tank weapons to play with. you can make a diplomatic vehicle pretty resistant to rifle fire, but RPGs are another story.
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Mar 20, 2022 23:31
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yup, when a third party tells a little guy 'no really, I got your back against the big guy, trust me, we got this' and the big guy reacts by beating the little guy up, he is absolutely in the wrong, no matter how much of a side-eye the third party might get. what's the quote? "It's worse than a crime, it's a blunder?" Are you claiming that Ukraine is allowing Russian troops to massacre civilians because it rids them of a few thousand nazi militia men?  Jesus christ dude.
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Mar 21, 2022 00:04
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:my personal guess is that the ukranians started the whole open arms distribution thing back when everyone thought Kiev was going to fall inside of a week or two, and now they're in the awkward/terrifying position of having let the genie of far right paramilitary action out of the bottle and not being sure how to get him back in. I also remember people furiously pretending that it was shocking and beyond the pale that a country with universal conscription was arming the populace in the face of a literal blood-and-soil invasion. At the time it seemed laughable because the people pushing it were pointing to an already-armed group while hand-wringing about them getting small arms. But it's extra funny in retrospect since who genuinely expected the postwar munitions problem to actually be abandoned Russian gear?
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Mar 21, 2022 00:08
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Did the guy ever post who the powerful secret masters of the DSA are
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Mar 21, 2022 00:13
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TheIncredulousHulk posted:Did the guy ever post who the powerful secret masters of the DSA are Yeah it turns out it was the Chapo guys
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Mar 21, 2022 00:14
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Are you claiming that Ukraine is allowing Russian troops to massacre civilians because it rids them of a few thousand nazi militia men? there is nowhere near enough information for me to claim that, not least in that there's a real shortage of reporting on civilian massacres as yet. i meant what I said: considering the threat Azov poses to Zelensky personally, I would not be shocked to hear he considers Russians fighting them in Mauripol a win/win, under the circumstances. when your enemy is killing a bunch of the very violent people who have been calling you a foreign asset and a traitor since you entered politics, and who will be actively trying to kill you if you sign a peace they don't approve of, you are going to be hard pressed to work up enthusiasm to protect them.
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Mar 21, 2022 00:34
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https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/20/politics/clarence-thomas-hospitalized/index.html Clarence Thomas in the hospital
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Mar 21, 2022 00:41
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah it turns out it was the Chapo guys Can't believe Matt Christmas would do this smh
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Mar 21, 2022 00:43
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is nowhere near enough information for me to claim that, not least in that there's a real shortage of reporting on civilian massacres as yet. i meant what I said: considering the threat Azov poses to Zelensky personally, I would not be shocked to hear he considers Russians fighting them in Mauripol a win/win, under the circumstances. I mean, I have no personal interest in this fight, and I too wouldn't particularly mind Azov Battalion eating frontline casualties and killing invaders. It'd be nice if they could be deprogrammed, but failing that, Russians and Ukrainian Nazis shooting at each other seems preferable to Russians and halfway-decent Ukrainians doing same. Zelensky's party/coalition were, a year ago, basically a bunch of incredibly boring centrists. Ukrainian ultranationalists were other people's base, never mind the literal Nazis. which is part of why my inclination is that zelensky would prefer not to arm the Nazis, so the Nazis getting armed is the result of things lower in the command structure, whether desperation or corruption or 'well they're on the front lines against Russia so here you go, have some night vision goggles and bazookas'
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Mar 21, 2022 00:49
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I mean, I have no personal interest in this fight, and I too wouldn't particularly mind Azov Battalion eating frontline casualties and killing invaders. It'd be nice if they could be deprogrammed, but failing that, Russians and Ukrainian Nazis shooting at each other seems preferable to Russians and halfway-decent Ukrainians doing same. The Ukrainian govt spent the last 8 years arming the nazis to fight the Donetsk separatists.
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Mar 21, 2022 01:09
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Chemtrailologist posted:The Ukrainian govt spent the last 8 years arming the nazis to fight the Donetsk separatists. was I unclear about the smallish number of Nazis being on the front line? because I'm almost certain I raised that at least once
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Mar 21, 2022 01:16
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There were, at their height in 2017, somewhat more than 2,500 members of the Azov Battalion. Out of the 64,000 total Ukranian soldiers fighting in the war in Donbas. There were, by comparison, 6,000 members of the Wagner Group in 2017. And hey, you know what's really good for ultranationalist militant movements? Foreign empires loving around in their home country. Especially Empire that pretend their country isn't really and bomb schools.
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Mar 21, 2022 01:17
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TGLT posted:There were, at their height in 2017, somewhat more than 2,500 members of the Azov Battalion. Out of the 64,000 total Ukranian soldiers fighting in the war in Donbas. Oh, so that's where I got my 3k-ish recollection.
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Mar 21, 2022 01:19
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Yeah. Current estimate is there are about 900 of the neo-nazi fucks still kicking around. Like Svoboda, they've been on seriously on the decline. They're a loving problem but letting Ukraine get occupied by an oppressive authoritarian regime that has zero issues murdering civilians is only going to make them a worse problem, not a better one.
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Mar 21, 2022 01:21
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 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 01:25
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TheScott2K posted:
Well that wasn't expected Edit God damnit if you got my hopes up Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 01:41
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Dear lord I don't ask for much but
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Mar 21, 2022 01:42
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TheScott2K posted:
posting your own tweets... shameful...
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Mar 21, 2022 01:43
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Fritz the Horse posted:Prior to the Russian invasion, Azov Battalion had a strength of less than one thousand. Could well be more than that now, no way to know as that will be part of opsec. so like 1/50th of an LAPD
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Mar 21, 2022 02:27
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Herstory Begins Now posted:so like 1/50th of an LAPD Right my point is the number of declared Nazis in the Ukrainian government and armed forces are quite small. This is Svoboda vote in 2019 by oblast:  That might give a better idea of popular support for neo-Nazis. I believe that's 2.15% for the whole nation? And higher but less than 10% in a few western oblasts. I have no idea if they are more popular now due to the Russian invasion, I'd guess maybe somewhat? But that's probably counterbalanced by Zelenskyy's enormous popularity. I'm not saying Nazis are not seriously a concern, I just get the impression they're much smaller than you'd think given all the attention they get. edit: fwiw as a point of comparison, Greece's Golden Dawn got 2.9% of the vote in 2019 national elections. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 02:49
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Fritz the Horse posted:Right my point is the number of declared Nazis in the Ukrainian government and armed forces are quite small. Really clears it up when you get it straight from the horse's mouth. Heck Yes! Loam! fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 02:54
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Fritz the Horse posted:declared heckuva load-bearing word to preface your data with
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Mar 21, 2022 03:07
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Yinlock posted:heckuva load-bearing word to preface your data with Its sure nifty how this conversation has pivoted from "There's Nazis everywhere and loads of them are hidden in American law enforcement and military" to "Well, on paper only a small percentage of Ukrainians are self-avowed Nazis. This is being blown out of proportion."
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Mar 21, 2022 03:14
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