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I never read anything like romance from Varl. He just seemed very empathic and compassionate towards Aloy. Erend is the only one who I kind of got a feeling had something for her, but I wonder if the story beat was Aloy is a surrogate sister for him I think there was a slight moment in the story that it seemed Aloy was interested in Alva and that Aloy was disappointed in learning that Alva had someone back in Quen.
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Apr 22, 2024 12:52
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Aloy's main struggle throughout the first two games is that nobody really sees her as a person. Whether she's labeled as an outcast or anointed or a savage or Of the Nora or the dozen other honorific titles she acquires over the course of the story, she doesn't like being viewed as a symbol rather than as an actual human being. I think that's partly why she rebuffs Varl, Erend, and Avad, who are all ready to thrown themselves down at her feet and worship her. Because for most of that time, Aloy doesn't actually see herself as an actual person either, but instead the resubstantiation of Elisabet Sobeck, who we later learn closed herself off from other people in her own lifetime. The epilogue to Forbidden West is the first real point in Horizon where Aloy is even emotionally available to let someone else in, and where she starts to think about living for herself rather than following in the exact footsteps of her genetic predecessor.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:09
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exquisite tea posted:Aloy's main struggle throughout the first two games is that nobody really sees her as a person. Whether she's labeled as an outcast or anointed or a savage or Of the Nora or the dozen other honorific titles she acquires over the course of the story, she doesn't like being viewed as a symbol rather than as an actual human being. I think that's partly why she rebuffs Varl, Erend, and Avad, who are all ready to thrown themselves down at her feet and worship her. Because for most of that time, Aloy doesn't actually see herself as an actual person either, but instead the resubstantiation of Elisabet Sobeck, who we later learn closed herself off from other people in her own lifetime. The epilogue to Forbidden West is the first real point in Horizon where Aloy is even emotionally available to let someone else in, and where she starts to think about living for herself rather than following in the exact footsteps of her genetic predecessor. I agree and I think by the beginning of the first game Varl begins to understand this and begins to understand the burden Aloy is carrying. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 13:15
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exquisite tea posted:Aloy doesn't actually see herself as an actual person either, but instead the resubstantiation of Elisabet Sobeck, who we later learn closed herself off from other people in her own lifetime. Following that, given Space Carrie-Ann Moss's desperate need to abduct Aloy, I wonder if that was another unrequited relationship or if she and Sobeck were kind of together but ended up separated by Zero Dawn.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:28
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Fatty posted:Following that, given Space Carrie-Ann Moss's desperate need to abduct Aloy, I wonder if that was another unrequited relationship or if she and Sobeck were kind of together but ended up separated by Zero Dawn. This is pretty explicitly stated in the game.
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Apr 22, 2024 13:35
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Fatty posted:Following that, given Space Carrie-Ann Moss's desperate need to abduct Aloy, I wonder if that was another unrequited relationship or if she and Sobeck were kind of together but ended up separated by Zero Dawn. You skipped the dialog trees
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Apr 22, 2024 13:45
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The first and base conversations only ever refer to it as a friendship. In the final one a crazed psychopath trying to justify her kidnapping of you says that she loved her, not that she was ever loved back. It doesn't write off the ACE reading of Sobeck/Aloy, though I'm not personally arguing either one.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:28
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Although i dont get as much the "worship/idolizing" angle from Erendas opposed to Varl and Avad. They seem to start at a pretty even footing in Mothers Heart and later in Meridian when they look for his sister. And there is also his first HFW appearance keeping it real
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Apr 22, 2024 14:44
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Erend is hitting on Aloy from the first moment he meets her at the proving ceremony, he basically busts out the "what's a pretty girl like you doing in a place like this?" line. I don't remember the exact wording though.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:58
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Fatty posted:The first and base conversations only ever refer to it as a friendship. In the final one a crazed psychopath trying to justify her kidnapping of you says that she loved her, not that she was ever loved back. It doesn't write off the ACE reading of Sobeck/Aloy, though I'm not personally arguing either one. it is stated it was a romantic relationship when Tilda is talking to aloy on the balcony of tilda's home.
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Apr 22, 2024 14:58
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Re: Tilda/Elisabet I tend to think they maybe had a little fling, with Tilda embellishing/wanting to be more than it was and clearly taking some rather extreme measures to change that.
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Apr 22, 2024 15:03
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big nipples big life posted:Erend is hitting on Aloy from the first moment he meets her at the proving ceremony, he basically busts out the "what's a pretty girl like you doing in a place like this?" line. I don't remember the exact wording though. I always got "dude who is a bit too familiar with girls" with Erend, and that he saw her as a cute girl when he met her but as he got to know her she became like a replacement sister. I really never thought there was any romantic tension there. In fact that's one of the things I like about the Horizon series, no romances beating you over the head every hour of the game
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Apr 22, 2024 15:05
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Mr Hootington posted:it is stated it was a romantic relationship when Tilda is talking to aloy on the balcony of tilda's home. Not seeing it here, but admittedly I'm mainly flicking through the Elisabet bits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjjTufmETMg
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Apr 22, 2024 15:16
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Fatty posted:Not seeing it here, but admittedly I'm mainly flicking through the Elisabet bits. I could be misremembering at which point it occurs, but there is a moment somewhere in the game where Tilda explains they were romantically involved. It is in one of the dialog trees. Edit: here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXocZ-clESw
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Apr 22, 2024 15:30
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Tilda's story with Elisabet was in the base for me. Aloy straight up asks her if they were more than friends. Tilda compliments her for being perceptive and says they were. Tilda says that she started wanted something more serious right as Elsabet started to pull away. I got the impression they were already over by the time Zero Dawn and the Zenith thing happened. On Aloy's love life: I think her being ace or demi or whatever is a fine reading, as is her being Too Busy For This poo poo / Too Important For Romance. A lot of what exquisite tea said about her wanting to be seen as a person rings true but I'll add she seems to want to be seen as her own person too. If you're as tolerant and encouraging to Avad's advances as you can over the two games she basically tells him "I dunno, maybe, but you're seeing me as a replacement for Ersa right now and that's never going to work. (Also I have to go save the world two more times.)" Avad, as a person who is also a symbol, seemed to get that burden. He also talked about abdicating to be with her, so he seemed to understand that Aloy might want to not just be the Savior of Meridian to her partner-- but he still sorta saw her as Second Ersa, and Aloy has poo poo to do, so that wasn't gonna work out. Erend clearly thought Aloy was hot based on how they met but I think pretty quickly slotted her into a friend / replacement sister box. It's pretty easy to read Varl as having a thing for her too because he's a little puppy-dogish about following her around but I don't think there's anything explicit in the text. Regardless it makes sense both that any of her followers would immediately have a thing for her and also any of her friends would quickly pick up that she's not in a place for that and move on. I don't think Varl was hedging on being with Zo or Erend was nursing a crush through Forbidden West, for example. Probably worth noting that Aloy's never had a model for a romantic relationship, since she was raised by a somewhat emotionally distant single father and was literally never allowed to interact with another human being. She's probably really weirded out by any romantic feelings, including her own potential ones, and is much more comfortable with her feelings about being a special destiny protagonist. Notice in Forbidden West she's conscious of her conflicted feelings about living up to Elsibet's legacy but totally represses her feelings about her dad dying for 80% of the game. I think "hahaha, no time to figure out my sexuality, too many robots to kill!" is where she lands for what I've played so far (just started Burning Shores.) Digital Osmosis fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 15:43
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Medullah posted:In fact that's one of the things I like about the Horizon series, no romances beating you over the head every hour of the game Same, too often media is unable to have meaningful platonic relationships without foisting romance/sex drama into something where it isnt necessary. Positive platonic relationships with men are an especially rare species. Re: Game Choices: There should have been an option to choose neither of the desert clan challengers (or shank both and declare the chaplain chief).
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Apr 22, 2024 15:52
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Mr Hootington posted:I could be misremembering at which point it occurs, but there is a moment somewhere in the game where Tilda explains they were romantically involved. It is in one of the dialog trees. Ah yeah, fair enough. I think at that point I was about done with this behemoth of a game and missed that base conversation. Fatty fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 15:56
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It's also possible Aloy didn't realise lesbians were A Thing until she met Tilda, since I can't remember any other queer folks that she meets in the game. There was definitely an undercurrent with the hunting lodge lady.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:10
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Aloy should have been able to kiss Petra instead.
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Apr 22, 2024 16:14
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tarbrush posted:It's also possible Aloy didn't realise lesbians were A Thing Even if her upbringing somehow had no queer people (seems unlikely since they occur naturally!) five seconds with Petra would be enough education for anyone I thought HZD showed a pretty strong difference between how Aloy reacted to men hitting on her and how she reacted to women, but that difference didn't (imo) have to be a reaction of sexual preference or even sexual interest — it might've been Aloy being less wary of women for whatever reason. Which is kind of weird when you think about it, she's from a matriarchal society, you wouldn't expect Vigilance Against Sex Pests to be a huge part of her upbringing. Then again HZD's fictional world is embedded inside ours, where women definitely are more wary of men (for good reason) so maybe Aloy is reflecting that...also Carja society is patriarchal, inn't? So maybe Aloy's just not about those vibes? Anyway I think Kotallo has tremendous BDE welp that's all from me goons
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Apr 22, 2024 16:15
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Well technically Aloy can meet gay people before Tilda. She can do Ikottehs sidequest before meeting Tilda, and also speak to Alva about her girlfriend back in China before embarking to Gemini. And then theres the audio datapoint at Deaths Door between Liz and Tilda, although questionable if it is explicit enough for Aloy to draw that connection. And the oseram stopped from visiting a shrine by a nasty carja priest, one his dead partner was involved in building, is also gay (HZD sidequest)
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Apr 22, 2024 16:27
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Falukorv posted:Well technically Aloy can meet gay people before Tilda. She can do Ikottehs sidequest before meeting Tilda, and also speak to Alva about her girlfriend back in China before embarking to Gemini. And then theres the audio datapoint at Deaths Door between Liz and Tilda, although questionable if it is explicit enough for Aloy to draw that connection. And the oseram stopped from visiting a shrine by a nasty carja priest, one his dead partner was involved in building, is also gay (HZD sidequest) Welp, my memory just sucks, ignore me!
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Apr 22, 2024 16:28
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tarbrush posted:I can't remember any other queer folks that she meets in the game. Edit: beaten
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Apr 22, 2024 16:28
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Ruffian Price posted:You get an option to blueball Seyka in Burning Shores, it's perfectly fine for that characterization Yeah I saw that lol Naturally I wasn't going to do that tho. Also I feel like that ending wouldn't really fit the story that well? Because Aloy is uncharacteristically horny for Seyka starting basically immediately after the intro cutscene (I felt really bad for Petra for a while  ) and turning around at the very end to say haha jk seems like it would be the player's choice, instead of Aloy's choice...if that makes sense
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Apr 22, 2024 16:42
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it did feel weird that (dlc spoiler) seyka was the one to profess at the end, since the attraction imo felt one-sided from aloy for the most of it. Tbh Seyka i found annoying at times, Aloy eyeing her and i wasnt seeing the same thing she saw in her. Que the arrested development "Her?" meme. Especially after that contrived fight about keeping secrets and Seyka just comes off as very entitled. And too much wiseass marvelesque quipping that killed a bunch of the tension of the final fight. Never bought the "she is like nobody i ever met" when i feel like Aloy has met several friends with similar admirable qualities, and the outcast parallells didnt work at all.. edit: If it were me, i would also be a bit more apprehensive and not fall that quickly for a Quen Officer, who knows what skullcracking baggage she may have at the onset. Falukorv fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 17:27
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In my perhaps too pessimistic opinion I thought Seyka suffered from coming at the tail end of a general slide in writing quality in HFW  Maybe I'm just being mean though!
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Apr 22, 2024 17:28
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Medullah posted:I always got "dude who is a bit too familiar with girls" with Erend, and that he saw her as a cute girl when he met her but as he got to know her she became like a replacement sister. I really never thought there was any romantic tension there. Erend's drunk half of HZD and not the sort to not get a bit familiar with anyone in sight, but HFW he's squarely in bro territory and just wants to bond over shared love of dam metal
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Apr 22, 2024 17:51
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From when I first bumped into Tilda I thought it was SO weird she had feelings for Aloy/Elisabet. If some dude or gal is pining after a one who got away for 10 years or so, we think that is weird. She did it for nearly 1000 years. That is a seriously long time. It made me think she was bad from the get go because someone who lives a thousand years should have so many more experiences and memories and such. I also think of the actual end of HFW as the end of the DLC - they are joined as one full experience in my mind and I think the (dlc spoiler) spectacle of the end of Burning Shores works SO well as a cap to the main storyline. They pulled it off having the enemy be one of the big boi machines without making you feel too powerful or it too weak. I absolutely loved it. 
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Apr 22, 2024 18:00
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On the one hand spectacle wise fighting a Horus was super cool, mechanically it was probably the worst fight is either game for me because I got to the part where you have to climb the leg... and the loving thing kept rotating away from me like 3 seconds before I could get in range to jump onto the leg and that went on for like 5 minutes and I'm getting blasted the whole time lol
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Apr 22, 2024 18:07
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Falukorv posted:Well technically Aloy can meet gay people before Tilda. She can do Ikottehs sidequest before meeting Tilda, and also speak to Alva about her girlfriend back in China before embarking to Gemini. And then theres the audio datapoint at Deaths Door between Liz and Tilda, although questionable if it is explicit enough for Aloy to draw that connection. And the oseram stopped from visiting a shrine by a nasty carja priest, one his dead partner was involved in building, is also gay (HZD sidequest) There is no chance Aloy grew up without learning about gay people. Even if she barely talked to anyone except Rost, presumably he explained the birds and the bees at some point (especially given Aloy's curiosity about her own mother) and there's no reason the Nora would be strangers to the idea of The Queers.
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Apr 22, 2024 18:34
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Aloy also grew up with her own personal head-mounted iphone so who knows what holo-smut was downloaded there.
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Apr 22, 2024 18:43
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VideoGames posted:From when I first bumped into Tilda I thought it was SO weird she had feelings for Aloy/Elisabet. If some dude or gal is pining after a one who got away for 10 years or so, we think that is weird. Even worse than this is everything involving Beta, which is just immensely hosed up on multiple levels (and you learn about it before ever directly meeting Tilda). She attempts to groom Beta, basically-if-not-literally a child at the time, into her "Sobeck-replacement" only to be disappointed (and later realize there's a hotter/cooler Sobeck-replacement in Aloy). Speaking of Beta, the stuff with her and Aloy is one of the few character/emotional plot beats that I think landed pretty well. It makes sense for Aloy to react so badly and for Beta to struggle with feelings of inferiority to Aloy, and it was a good way to convince Aloy to finally think/talk about Rost (since having family was the kind of giant difference between the two upbringings - though I'd also argue that simply "existing in a world where you're at least somewhat physically free" is another kind of big one). General Battuta posted:There is no chance Aloy grew up without learning about gay people. Even if she barely talked to anyone except Rost, presumably he explained the birds and the bees at some point (especially given Aloy's curiosity about her own mother) and there's no reason the Nora would be strangers to the idea of The Queers. In general it seems like there's zero stigma in the various tribes. The only tribe with any sort of gender-based biases seems to be the Oseram, and I don't think that extends to any sort of stigma against same-sex relationships. I'm pretty sure there are like 20+ across the various side-quests, etc, since I can instantly think of 4 just from quests I've played fairly recently in my playthrough. edit: I would go as far as to say that it feels like there's roughly a 50/50 split between straight and gay couples. I think the biggest romance-related shock to me was the hot Carja huntress lady being in love with *gestures at Amadis* Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 18:51
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Ytlaya posted:Speaking of Beta, the stuff with her and Aloy is one of the few character/emotional plot beats that I think landed pretty well. It makes sense for Aloy to react so badly and for Beta to struggle with feelings of inferiority to Aloy, and it was a good way to convince Aloy to finally think/talk about Rost (since having family was the kind of giant difference between the two upbringings - though I'd also argue that simply "existing in a world where you're at least somewhat physically free" is another kind of big one). Yeah, Aloy's line of "That's between me and my sister." is one of the few beats from HFW that measures up to the highest moments of HZD for me.
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Apr 22, 2024 19:09
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Klungar posted:Yeah, Aloy's line of "That's between me and my sister." is one of the few beats from HFW that measures up to the highest moments of HZD for me. I was going to bring up that exact line, it's so good.
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Apr 22, 2024 19:29
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I guess the guy who did the voice for Jet in Cowboy Bebop can only do that voice, because I met two characters he did in HFW and they both sound exactly like Jet. And then I talked to that one Chaplain guy, and I thought, wait why is Tuvok from Star Track Voyager talking to me? And then I get to the credits and yep, there's Tim Russ.
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Apr 22, 2024 20:04
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Adam Jenson from deus ex is at least two npcs in every town
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Apr 22, 2024 20:10
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Ytlaya posted:In general it seems like there's zero stigma in the various tribes. The only tribe with any sort of gender-based biases seems to be the Oseram, and I don't think that extends to any sort of stigma against same-sex relationships. the trans-ish character in that one sky clan quest mentions everyone thinking it crazy that someone would wear wrong-gender armor, though implies people took a laissez-fair attitude after a bit
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Apr 23, 2024 00:11
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Qtotonibudinibudet posted:the trans-ish character in that one sky clan quest mentions everyone thinking it crazy that someone would wear wrong-gender armor, though implies people took a laissez-fair attitude after a bit My read of that is just that people thought "huh that's a strange thing to do" - it didn't sound like there was actually strong institutional/cultural pushback against the concept of "different gender expression" and it was more just "pushback against nonconforming behavior." And yeah, I'm not sure if that character was meant to be a transwoman or "just a guy who prefers dressing in women's armor." My guess is the former, though.
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Apr 23, 2024 00:52
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I am having a really great time remembering why I never bothered with the arena challenges on playstation. I love being ragdolled into the corner while I can't see poo poo and have had all my gear replaced by poo poo that takes six minutes per shot.
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Apr 23, 2024 22:58
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traps are your best friend in the arena.
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