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 When Amy and I were listing the games that we wanted to play next, we finally settled on The Forgotten City, which we just remembered exists! HAHA AND GUFFAW, I AM A COMEDIC GENIUS. The Forgotten City is a timey-wimey puzzle game that was originally an extensive mod of The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. The mod garnered universal acclaim, and the recently-released standalone version -- which came out six years later -- has been no different. We were drawn to The Forgotten City because we've been told that we'll love it if we loved Outer Wilds, which we did, so here we are! Amy and I don't know much at all about this game, and we want to keep it that way as we play, so please, spoiler tag anything that might give the story away. Other than that, though, we're really looking forward to playing another puzzle game with you guys! Personally, I'm still on an Outer Wilds high, so if this gives me more of that feeling, then I'm ready. In addition to YouTube uploads, we'll also once again be streaming our playthrough on Twitch before it gets put up on YouTube in parts. Our aim is to stream on Monday evenings, ~7:30 p.m. Central U.S. Time. As always, our Twitch channel can be found right here. We'd love to see you! (We're aiming to upload the recorded episodes to YouTube on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I'm posting this thread early to link people to the stream, in case they want to watch live.) EPISODES Part 1: You spring with such joy! Part 2: Hey, Georgius Part 3: Quit getting hit by arrows Part 4: *Kick* Part 5: Sure, "lighting" Part 6: Kazaam! Part 7: Time paradox! Part 8: Ahhh, I'm being spoiled! Part 9: Jacked Santa Part 10: Wee! ...Huh. Part 11 (Finale!): AAAaaaAaAAAaaaaAA pedrovay2003 fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Mar 15, 2022 |
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Jan 31, 2022 20:02
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| # ? May 8, 2024 00:52 |
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Part 1 is up now! Lots of talking in this game, I hope everyone's okay with that. Also, apologies for the low in-game audio, that'll be fixed in part 3.
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Feb 1, 2022 16:29
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Part 2 is up now! And we end the episode right before we actually see what the game is all about!
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Feb 4, 2022 02:36
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Is this really getting good reviews? Wow, I've checked and it's incredibly well-received by both critics and general public. That's... baffling.
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Feb 5, 2022 16:22
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Forgall posted:Is this really getting good reviews? It's very good. A nice modern take on the adventure game. A little buggy, and the ending is pretty crap, but overall it's a great game to breeze through in a few hours.
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Feb 5, 2022 16:27
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The Forgotten City is, frankly, what it is, and a big part of its appeal is that it's here to examine what it's here to examine and then end, and not massively concerned with being a gleaming polished AAA production. It's the kind of scope of thing I'd love to see thousands more of at the cost of one interminable forever-game franchise. This clarity of purpose is exactly why The Forgotten City worked as both a side-story in Skyrim where you talk to dwarves and as a standalone production set in our world where you can explain to a bemused centurion the concept of a war crime and invoke Karen memes. It's rough and trite and completely earnest, which makes it stand out among video games.
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Feb 5, 2022 17:05
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Bug Squash posted:It's very good. A nice modern take on the adventure game. A little buggy, and the ending is pretty crap, but overall it's a great game to breeze through in a few hours. Fedule posted:The Forgotten City is, frankly, what it is, and a big part of its appeal is that it's here to examine what it's here to examine and then end, and not massively concerned with being a gleaming polished AAA production. It's the kind of scope of thing I'd love to see thousands more of at the cost of one interminable forever-game franchise. This clarity of purpose is exactly why The Forgotten City worked as both a side-story in Skyrim where you talk to dwarves and as a standalone production set in our world where you can explain to a bemused centurion the concept of a war crime and invoke Karen memes. It's rough and trite and completely earnest, which makes it stand out among video games.  quite possibly.
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Feb 6, 2022 13:09
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Forgall posted:
I mean, not necessarily? The game's pretty janky, you can see the strings with minimal scrutiny, and while it's interesting and maybe even right about a thing or two it's neither subtle nor very deep. Also it was made by three people out of a Skyrim mod. It's not Wrong to dislike this game; the reason the AAAs all look and feel the same way is because that's a good way that a lot of people like. It's totally valid for the sum total of all the rough edges to outweigh the conceptual or literary appeal of the thing, especially if those things haven't really presented themselves to you yet or if you're just not interested in those things.
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Feb 6, 2022 13:22
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Yeah, while I'm enjoying the game quite a bit, I can definitely see how it would turn a few people off. It's certainly a janky experience, but I'm genuinely pretty interested in where the story is going, so I'm going to see it through to the end. It's pretty cool it's such a small team was able to make something like this, though. It's my dream to be able to sit down and make a game one day, so this has my admiration.
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Feb 8, 2022 05:05
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The way I see it, it's a game that was made in good faith and is very earnest. That earns it at least respect in my eyes, even if it's really not my bag personally. The fact that the basis is a Skyrim mod also amuses me, and showcases why I think companies that get restrictive on modding are really short sighted.
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Feb 8, 2022 08:19
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Part 3 is up now! Okay, we're finally getting into the meat of the game. There are a whole lot of side missions that we've collected, but it seems like everything is an important step as far as discovering who the culprit is going to end up being.Keldulas posted:The way I see it, it's a game that was made in good faith and is very earnest. That earns it at least respect in my eyes, even if it's really not my bag personally. I 100% agree with the short-sightedness of bigger companies. Look at what a team of three people was able to accomplish, given the proper tools and the means.
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Feb 8, 2022 19:26
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Good to see you guys! I watched the first two videos and really liked them so far. This game is fun and I actually watched a play through after finishing it myself. I'm gonna say, the white hallway is not that hard to spot. You will know when you are there.
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Feb 8, 2022 20:01
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cant cook creole bream posted:Good to see you guys! I watched the first two videos and really liked them so far. This game is fun and I actually watched a play through after finishing it myself. I'm gonna say, the white hallway is not that hard to spot. You will know when you are there. Thank you so much for the kind words! And yeah, I figured we'd know the White Hallway when we see it. I would hope so, at least!
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Feb 8, 2022 21:21
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In case your wondering, Nemesis is the goddess of vengeance and retribution. Galerius is saying that those rich assholes will get their due reward, and is considering handing it out himself. I can see why he asked you not to share that outburst.
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Feb 10, 2022 14:02
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cant cook creole bream posted:In case your wondering, Nemesis is the goddess of vengeance and retribution. Galerius is saying that those rich assholes will get their due reward, and is considering handing it out himself. I can see why he asked you not to share that outburst. Ah, yeah, that makes a lot more sense.
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Feb 10, 2022 16:51
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Part 4 is up now! I hope you like action, because there's more action than you can shake a golden stick at in this episode! I will never turn off the action in the in-game options.
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Feb 10, 2022 16:55
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Part 5 is up now! We get our first story revelation in this episode, and I'm told that it only gets crazier from here.
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Feb 15, 2022 15:13
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I can't believe Two Thumbs Pete is DEAD!! I really like that Galerius can just speed run the puzzles you already completed. That saves a lot of repetition and tedium.
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Feb 15, 2022 20:26
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cant cook creole bream posted:I can't believe Two Thumbs Pete is DEAD!! Galerius is the real hero here.
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Feb 15, 2022 21:18
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Part 6 is up now! We're just being a great big good samaritan in this episode, making sure a whole bunch of people don't die! Still screw that one assassin, though.
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Feb 17, 2022 17:02
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The way I remember that little Philosophy 101 course was that I insisted that there is no single morale and that it's based on local customs. He tried to dissuade me with a specific example, I ignored it and he gave in. I don't think that guy is good at that arguing concept. It's fun how you can mess up the dialogue and offend the people like that. I can't blame Iulia for being pissed off at you for that. I think there is also some offhand comment about going on a ledge you can drop toward the woman on the hill. It's completely insignificant but for some reason, she really doesn't like that wording the second time you speak to her.
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Feb 17, 2022 20:19
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Part 7 is up now! Holy crap, these next two episodes are going to be intense. It's time for some revelations!
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Feb 22, 2022 15:48
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I like that theme of building on top of the foundations of the predecessors. Kabash is just such a self delusional hypocrite. it's great. Come to think of it, I have no idea what happens if you come back there. "Oh yeah, you can just toss that old plaque, I've got a copy right here."
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Feb 23, 2022 00:06
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Part 8 is up now, and buckle the gently caress up, if you know what's good for you.cant cook creole bream posted:I like that theme of building on top of the foundations of the predecessors. Kabash is just such a self delusional hypocrite. it's great. Ha, I'd be interested in trying that just to rub it in Kabash's hypocritical little face.
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Feb 24, 2022 18:53
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So the whole place practically The Good Place?
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Feb 25, 2022 05:59
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Let's free this unjustly imprisoned man from his cage! FIVE SECONDS LATER 
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Feb 25, 2022 13:45
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Forgall posted:Let's free this unjustly imprisoned man from his cage! I felt bad for that guy, but look at what ended up happening. Coincidence? I think not!
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Feb 26, 2022 07:09
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pedrovay2003 posted:I felt bad for that guy, but look at what ended up happening. Coincidence? I think not! It's really not. You missed it but Duly immediately picked up some shiny thing from the unsupervised stall. The thing is, that only happens once you talk to him, so if you want to prolong the cycle for some reason, you just need to ignore him after Eri becomes magistrate.
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Feb 26, 2022 23:43
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cant cook creole bream posted:It's really not. You missed it but Duly immediately picked up some shiny thing from the unsupervised stall. The thing is, that only happens once you talk to him, so if you want to prolong the cycle for some reason, you just need to ignore him after Eri becomes magistrate. Holy crap, he waits until he speaks to us and then does it right in front of us, so we feel guilty. The bastard!
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Feb 27, 2022 00:15
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He didn't steal anything before that point even before he was imprisoned. I'd argue that his unjust incarceration and the psychological effect of being judged without a due cause made him internalize these accusations, transforming into that which society already perceived him as. Alternatively he's the mastermind all behind all of this worlds misery.
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Feb 27, 2022 01:02
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Alright so let's talk about the FEEMS. I don't know if you've noticed, it's very subtle, but this game has them. First feem; poo poo be cyclical. One thing leads to another which leads to another which leads to another, and therefore one thing is built on another which is built on another which is built on another. There's not an original idea on Earth, so beware anyone who claims to have had one, especially if they claim to have the Truth, because you'll find it won't have done the last guy who had it any good. This is a lesson about mythology more than is about specific cultures; it's not that it's inherently wrong to tell what is essentially the same story with new characters of your own invention, so long as you're not claiming to be the originator and silencing the guy you took it from. There's a meaning in these stories - and in our civilisations and our cultures - beyond the surface facts, and once you understand that we've always striven to understand, build, and ponder, humanity seems a little more comprehensible (but by the same token remember that we're always inclined to pretend to be the final conclusion of it all, and to delude ourselves into believing that makes it okay for us to disregard everything that came before). Of course, The Forgotten City doesn't want to just leave it at a nice explainable level, so after taking us from Roman mythology through to Greek, then Egyptian, then Sumerian, it brings us to the literal gods these myths told of, and then reveals that even they came from somewhere, and built things, and pondered things. Second and more interesting feem: morality be difficult. The whole setting is concerned, literally and figuratively, with determining what things are and are not "sins", so that this standard can be enforced ruthlessly. Like the current inhabitants first considered, aside from a few broad strokes, the million denarii question becomes, against whom exactly are we sinning? They all seem to realize that all authority, even moral authority, has to have a source. They, of course, being good* citizens of Rome, take the path of least resistance and consider the authority to be that of the Roman Empire, and keep its laws. Accordingly, pretty much the first thing the game does upon our arrival is jam our face into all the ways in which the Romans' idea of morality seems outlandish today; see also, trying to explain to an incredulous Horatius the all-too-modern concept of a "war crime". We then set about investigating some imminent sin, and discover just how fragile are both the peace and the understanding of the moral law in effect. Everywhere we turn we are surrounded by both imminent disaster and manifest injustice; the deceptions and enslavement and mad statue science and one other thing are the big ones, although many other small ones help call into question the certainty in any given interpretation of the moral law. The presence of some early Christians throws a fascinating wrench into the works, as what is apparently the writ of their god directly contradicts that of the Romans. So it's all a bit of a mess. But, notably, all of these religions have one great shared moral principle which has persisted through them all and remains understood to the present day, which is some variation of "treat others as you would want to be treated". The Christians even term this the Golden Rule. So, that's that settled, right? Well, wrong. It's a nice idea, but the problem with ideas is that they tend to falter on contact with reality. Treating the Golden Rule as a moral imperative in and of itself (what the philosophically inclined among us call a "normative ethic", which is an exemplified moral judgement like "murder is bad") can fashion an accord most of the time, but press at it and it starts to buckle. Our hermit friend in the caverns engages us in what he correctly terms a "Socratic dialogue" on the subject; he prompts us to start with a thesis, which depending on choice can be either that there does or does not exist a universally applicable moral law, and then challenges it by proposing counterexamples that ought to prompt us to reconsider. It can seem a little unfair to someone looking for a BioWare-style golden playthrough, but this man is debating for sport about an idea famously not proven one way or another even two thousand years beyond the history he knows, and he's able to defeat either position because if either could hold up to that kind of scrutiny humanity would have figured it out by now. This leads us to the present revelations regarding the setting, and the predicament in which an actual god is actually attempting to enforce a moral law derived from a single situational principle. He's taken one of the sides. By all of his logic, he's doing it correctly; all the horrific things we've seen are perpetrated entirely by people acting in accordance with their idea of universal principles. We are therefore surrounded by counterexamples, and we know the things we're seeing are wrong because... because... ...because...? What we've discovered is the meta-ethical theory of intuitionism, the idea that moral good is something we just perceive the same way we perceive sight and smell, we just look at the totality of some thing and we know it's good or bad. This stands in opposition to the ideas that good comes from a god or gods or that it is agreed subjectively among ourselves. This is notable because the whole setting of the game seems to be setting up a moral law flowing from a god, and then we meet the god and discover that he's dictating something subjective. Now, humanity's been at this philosophy thing for a couple millennia, so odds are good that if there was a competing theory here other than religion, subjectivity and intuitionism, we'd have identified it. We haven't, though. The appeal of intuitionism is that you don't have to explain the appeal of intuitionism, because, well, you know why. You've felt it, both when appraising situations in this video game and when appraising situations out there in reality, you've looked at stuff and you can see, practically feel the injustice, and you see and feel the injustice whether or not you have years of formal education in ethics. You've seen and felt it while being a literal child without years of education in anything. The problem with intuitionism is that it's philosophically worthless; there's nothing you can really point to or present about an intuition, no way to use it to convince anyone of anything, save to hope the other guy shares it. It's derided as the "boo/hurrah" theory of ethics, because as compelling as it is, it tends to come down to "I don't like thing" in practice. So, here we are, face to face with a god, and having to explain somehow that we don't like thing. It might have been easier to convince Horatio about the war crimes. Anyway, this is also a great thing to study in a time-loop game. So much of common thinking about morality tends to boil down to notions about how things will or won't "turn out", like, we think about morality in terms of outcome, and even when we remember sayings about ends justifying or not justifying means we can't help but think that way when we do or see being done things we don't think are right and then see outcomes we find agreeable. We equate wrongdoing with the outcomes of wrongdoing; pain, death, loss, trauma, and other suffering. It's far less common to think about the principles we're acting on at any time, usually because it's very difficult to think about principles in context, when with every passing second we are committing ourselves to some future. So, a setting that lets us work through moral actions while also maintaining some distance. So long as we don't think about the ethics of being stuck in a time loop, it's the perfect way to put principles in context and examine their worth. But on the other hand everyone has Bethesda face so maybe the game is trash?
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Feb 27, 2022 05:52
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There's one part of the golden rule which is distinctly different from the others. Why is it forbidden to try to leave? Obviously, Hades doesn't want this because such attempts ruin his little wager, but there is no inherent morale imperative here and it doesn't fit with the other aspects of the rule. (Do unto others etc.) The only reason that the current iteration even knows that such an attempt is forbidden is because they found documentation of a previous iteration who did that. That's honestly a bit of bullshit. Why was that prior iteration wiped out, when, as far as they were aware, none of their actions where breaking a morale code? And why does the current iteration get to have more information about the boundaries of the rule then them. Trying to leave should have some distinct form of punishment, because it's just a forbidden thing, not a morally abhorrent one. If that is punished like all the others, it muddies the water and makes you think that a lot of other clauses might be hidden in the small print of that so called universal golden rule. Maybe Pluto wiped out a whole cycle because one guy started wearing socks with sandals. "I know that they're almost at the end of their year, but looking at that douche for another month is just not feasible. Let's just reset and hope the next cycle is wiser." Also I kind off wonder how that wager would play out if there was just a singular person around. Can you break a rule which is explicitly built on interpersonal relations on your own? If you hadn't entered the portal at the beginning of the game and instead opted to just survive out there by fishing for a year, would that have been a valid solution? What I'm saying is that these gods of those pantheons are arbitrary and petty. Who knew? cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Feb 27, 2022 |
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Feb 27, 2022 07:56
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I know we stopped right before dealing with a god, but we're not going to be streaming today. We had a bunch of doctor stuff going on, so we're both already pretty tired. We'll be back next week, though! Also, I love the discussion that's happening right now. Fedule, that was quite the dissertation! But it's worth it if it means studying the FEEMS, the main FEEM being that Bethesda Face means you suck. (In all seriousness, though, that was a hell of an analysis.) pedrovay2003 fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Mar 2, 2022 |
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Feb 28, 2022 15:38
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Part 9 is up now! We pretty unexpectedly got the canon ending in this episode, but we're not done yet!
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Mar 8, 2022 15:00
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Thanks for the shoutout. The first time I've heard that stupid name spoken out loud. I got it from a "Post ITT to get a random user name change."- thread and never bothered to change it to something better after that.
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Mar 8, 2022 22:00
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cant cook creole bream posted:Thanks for the shoutout. The first time I've heard that stupid name spoken out loud. I got it from a "Post ITT to get a random user name change."- thread and never bothered to change it to something better after that. I think it's fantastic, personally. It's better than mine, which is literally just the first email address I ever made (guess the year!). I should change it to something else for Something Awful, honestly.
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Mar 9, 2022 13:39
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Part 10 is up now! This one's not quite as exciting as the last episode (and really, what could be as exciting as seeing Georgius in a suit), but I still think we made some progress toward the final ending that we need to get.
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Mar 10, 2022 17:12
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pedrovay2003 posted:Part 10 is up now! This one's not quite as exciting as the last episode (and really, what could be as exciting as seeing Georgius in a suit), but I still think we made some progress toward the final ending that we need to get. This episode does highlight one of the problem I have with this and many games that involve time loop (which is a surprising amount when I think of it). As you saw, there was nothing you could do to stop Duli from stealing, even if you know he will from a prior loop. The challenge Pluto lays down is that the city must survive for one year without sin, which for gameplay reasons is impossible, but if you take Pluto's offer at face value, i.e. you get to live in paradise if you can survive the year, well, you have time looping powers, you could make an honest go at surviving the year and jumping back to "correct things" each time a sin prevents you from completing the task. I think the idea that the protagonist spends their life living the same handful months over and over trying in vain to micromanage the population long enough to finish the year would have made an awesome bad end.
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Mar 11, 2022 06:01
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Part 11 is up now, which signals the end of our journey through The Forgotten City. Unfortunately, the third ending of the game was super similar to the second one, there was almost no difference at all. It was kind of cool to see the process of getting to that point, but the payoff was pretty underwhelming, which is too bad. Still, what an impressive effort from such a small team, especially for a game that started out as a mod of another game. This game was another really fun one, and I'm super happy that we had so many regular viewers from the beginning all the way through the end. It makes Amy and I really happy to know that we're entertaining to at least a few people. :-D Will be back next week with something new, so I hope we see some of you there, as well!
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Mar 15, 2022 16:12
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| # ? May 8, 2024 00:52 |
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I think you've mentioned Spiritfarer at some point as possible next LP. It's pretty good (and even has local co-op) although it's a bit padded with busywork. As for mystery games, there's Paradise Killer, a pretty unique game that flew under a lot of people's radar.
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Mar 15, 2022 18:24
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