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Red and Black posted:Even if Russia were a perfect democracy, it would still oppose NATOs expansion into Ukraine. It would still oppose NATO troops in Ukraine. It would still oppose western missiles in Ukraine. (and it would still be called a dictatorship by the western media) This is a matter of a core security concern and not of the personal ideology of one man, who by the way probably isn't as all powerful as you've convinced yourself he is. I don't see any of that as justification for an aggressive war of expansion and imperial conquest. I also think that if Russia were a "perfect democracy" they wouldn't be handling any disagreements about NATO with a war and an invasion. Putin is in control, he has all the agency here.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:25
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Red and Black posted:Even if Russia were a perfect democracy, it would still oppose NATOs expansion into Ukraine. It would still oppose NATO troops in Ukraine. It would still oppose western missiles in Ukraine. (and it would still be called a dictatorship by the western media) This is a matter of a core security concern and not of the personal ideology of one man, who by the way probably isn't as all powerful as you've convinced yourself he is. Why are we still hammering on about this? Only Ukraine wants NATO expansion. They've been told (and Putin as well) that isn't not happening. Why is this even a talking point?
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Feb 14, 2022 20:25
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BoldFace posted:Pretty radical shift in tone. It's not a shift in tone, it's a wildly incorrect translation. "We are being told the 16th will be a day of invasion. We will make it a day of unity".
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Feb 14, 2022 20:26
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ranbo das posted:I mean by that logic can we point to the USSR version of operation paperclip and say that Russia is also a Nazi country? Seems fair Yes? It is in fact very fair considering the effect of taking in Nazis for their military and scientific knowledge had a negative effect on the counties that did it.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:26
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BoldFace posted:Pretty radical shift in tone. "We are told that February 16th is the day" is a little more moderate than the tweet claims. e: what OddObserver said It's a good idea to be wary of any reports right now that you don't know the source of or don't understand the source language. Sometimes excerpts are mistranslated, sometimes they're exaggerated to get clicks, and others they're intentionally misrepresented. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 20:27
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Oh you're against being invaded? You know who else is against being invaded? Nazis. I guess if you're against being invaded you're pro-nazi. 
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Feb 14, 2022 20:29
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pippy posted:Oh you're against being invaded? You know who else is against being invaded? Nazis. But there just so happens to be some Nazis there, obviously the invasion must go on. Just don't look at the invading Nazis, those are different Nazis. Its Spy vs Spy but White Supremacy
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Feb 14, 2022 20:30
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'A good quick bloodless war will make everything better' is very channeling the spirit of Kaiser Wilhelm.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:30
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I don't think anybody's said the existence of Azov Battalion justifies a Russian invasion, and you guys are punching pretty hard at strawmen.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:32
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How are u posted:I don't see any of that as justification for an aggressive war of expansion and imperial conquest. The only territory Russia took was Crimea, and that was because the right-wing coup in 2014 raised the real possibility of NATO taking over the naval base at Sevastopol. Also since you're so concerned with self-determination consider that the population of Crimea has wanted to join Russia since at least the 90s and were in favor of the take over. As for the war in the Donbass, that's a matter of home grown separatists who also don't want to be part of Ukraine, and who object to the hyper nationalist government introduced in 2014 and its disregard for their culture and ethnicity. Russia has probably supported them, but at the core it's a problem that Ukraine brought on itself by alienating its own population. If however you're talking about the much hyped 2022 Russia invasion of Ukraine: it's not happening. There will be no invasion. It's a western media fever dream. CommieGIR posted:But there just so happens to be some Nazis there, obviously the invasion must go on. Just don't look at the invading Nazis, those are different Nazis. So you're saying that Russia has an equivalent of the Azov battalion? I'd love to see your evidence.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:32
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Alchenar posted:'A good quick bloodless war will make everything better' is very channeling the spirit of Kaiser Wilhelm. Another war started using absurd demands that they knew would be rejected for pretext
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Feb 14, 2022 20:34
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Red and Black posted:The only territory Russia took was Crimea, and that was because the right-wing coup in 2014 raised the real possibility of NATO taking over the naval base at Sevastopol. Also since you're so concerned with self-determination consider that the population of Crimea has wanted to join Russia since at least the 90s and were in favor of the take over. As for the war in the Donbass, that's a matter of home grown separatists who also don't want to be part of Ukraine, and who object to the hyper nationalist government introduced in 2014 and its disregard for their culture and ethnicity. Russia has probably supported them, but at the core it's a problem that Ukraine brought on itself by alienating its own population. .....what? How would that lead to: 1. Ukraine becoming a NATO country, 2. Ukraine handing over Sevastpol to NATO? Even under a color revolution there wasn't an asterisk saying "If Ukraine goes full alt right then we'll welcome them aboard with open arms" Where do you get this idea? Also: The Wagner Group which is one of the Mercenary Groups employed in Syria and Donbass has strong ties to white supremacists and have fought alongside them against Ukrainian forces (which also include white supremacists) CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 20:34
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CommieGIR posted:But there just so happens to be some Nazis there, obviously the invasion must go on. Just don't look at the invading Nazis, those are different Nazis.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:35
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CommieGIR posted:.....what? How would that lead to: 1. Ukraine becoming a NATO country, 2. Ukraine handing over Sevastpol to NATO? Even under a color revolution there wasn't an asterisk saying "If Ukraine goes full alt right then we'll welcome them aboard with open arms" The Maidan coup lead to a pro-EU/US government as evidenced by them almost immediately taking on a huge IMF loan with structural adjustments. It really isn't that hard to connect the dots to potential NATO membership and handing over the naval base. This is the calculation Russia made and acted on.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:37
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BoldFace posted:Pretty radical shift in tone. That twitter user seems to not understand Ukrainian at all. quote:We are told that Feb 16 will be the day of [Russia's] attack. Let us instead make it our day of unity.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:37
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Red and Black posted:The Maidan coup lead to a pro-EU/US government as evidenced by them almost immediately taking on a huge IMF loan with structural adjustments. It really isn't that hard to connect the dots to potential NATO membership and handing over the naval base. This is the calculation Russia made and acted on. No, because key NATO members would still refuse to ratify Ukraine joining NATO. Again, this is very much a conspiracy theory, not founded in actual events. There has never been anything suggesting a conditional change in government was going to make Ukraine a NATO member.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:38
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Alchenar posted:'A good quick bloodless war will make everything better' is very channeling the spirit of Kaiser Wilhelm. Or maybe Russian Empire's Interior Minister, von Plehve  according to one critic of his, at least, he said that "What this country needs is a short, victorious war to stem the tide of revolution" in support of going full steam against the Japanese in 1904. It could have been just made up afterwards to discredit him, though, as the war was long, lost and gave way to revolution.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:39
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CommieGIR posted:No, because key NATO members would still refuse to ratify Ukraine joining NATO. Again, this is very much a conspiracy theory, not founded in actual events. There has never been anything suggesting a conditional change in government was going to make Ukraine a NATO member. Maybe, or maybe Germany and France change their minds and let Ukraine in. Russia made its judgement based on the potential evolution of events following the 2014 coup. In any case, a western friendly government being installed on their border wasn't good news and in their mind justified action
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Feb 14, 2022 20:40
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Red and Black posted:The Maidan coup lead to a pro-EU/US government as evidenced by them almost immediately taking on a huge IMF loan with structural adjustments. It really isn't that hard to connect the dots to potential NATO membership and handing over the naval base. This is the calculation Russia made and acted on. Didn't the government of Ukraine offer to extend the least of their (you know Ukrainian, ie. not Russian) naval base, before Russia made the offer moot by just invading and taking it over, of course. EDIT: It was leased until 2042, so  I guess, that makes it all right to invade.
mmkay fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 20:40
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edit: nm. badly conceived post.
QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Feb 14, 2022 |
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Feb 14, 2022 20:41
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CommieGIR posted:No, because key NATO members would still refuse to ratify Ukraine joining NATO. Again, this is very much a conspiracy theory, not founded in actual events. There has never been anything suggesting a conditional change in government was going to make Ukraine a NATO member. Also residents of Crimea in particular would raise a stink and government would shelve the idea quickly, which is pretty much what happened to all "let's cooperate with NATO" episodes before 2014.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:42
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Red and Black posted:Maybe, or maybe Germany and France change their minds and let Ukraine in. Russia made its judgement based on the potential evolution of events following the 2014 coup. In any case, a western friendly government being installed on their border wasn't good news and in their mind justified action That's just not going to happen as long as there is an ongoing territorial dispute, sorry!
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Feb 14, 2022 20:42
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mmkay posted:Didn't the government of Ukraine offer to extend the least of their (you know Ukrainian, ie. not Russian) naval base, before Russia made the offer moot by just invading and taking it over, of course. Dunno. Probably not Nenonen posted:That's just not going to happen as long as there is an ongoing territorial dispute, sorry! NATO can change their minds about that too
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Feb 14, 2022 20:43
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Nenonen posted:Or maybe Russian Empire's Interior Minister, von Plehve Yeah but you could sneeze loudly in Russia in 1904 and it would lead to revolution.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:44
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CommieGIR posted:No, because key NATO members would still refuse to ratify Ukraine joining NATO. Again, this is very much a conspiracy theory, not founded in actual events. There has never been anything suggesting a conditional change in government was going to make Ukraine a NATO member. It's not particularly great that this new thread is basically repeating the EE thread a few weeks ago, just so tankies can drop their "Ukraine is full of nazis anyway", "West did it because USA bad" and "polls said Crimea wanted to be Russia so Ukraine deserved to get invaded" hot takes again. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 14, 2022 20:44
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Red and Black posted:Dunno. Probably not But that's not what this is about? You are throwing around conjecture about what you think NATO would do despite all evidence and public statements. That's not a firm foundation for excusing outright annexation and invasion.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:45
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Sinteres posted:I don't think anybody's said the existence of Azov Battalion justifies a Russian invasion, and you guys are punching pretty hard at strawmen. I don't think it's too far off what some of them actually believe.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:45
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Red and Black posted:coup in 2014 raised the real possibility of Russia losing control of the naval base at Sevastopol. Fixed. You could’ve at least held up an argument over the strategic necessity of the Black Sea base to Russia instead of just being so scared of NATO lol.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:45
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CommieGIR posted:But that's not what this is about? You are throwing around conjecture about what you think NATO would do despite all evidence and public statements. Sure it is. As evidence by the fact that it happened and that this is the most likely explanation of Russia's reasoning
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Feb 14, 2022 20:46
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Here is one example of Russian neo-nazi fighting forces for those who believe they don't exist: https://www.thedailybeast.com/wagners-rusich-neo-nazi-attack-unit-hints-its-going-back-into-ukraine-undercover?ref=home?ref=home
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Feb 14, 2022 20:46
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CareyB posted:Fixed. You could’ve at least held up an argument over the strategic necessity of the Black Sea base to Russia instead of just being so scared of NATO lol. Yeah, it's so irrational for Russia to be scared of a hostile military alliance which has extended itself all the way to its borders
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Feb 14, 2022 20:48
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Red and Black posted:Sure it is. As evidence by the fact that it happened and that this is the most likely explanation of Russia's reasoning Or its just a territory grab and a demonstration to other Eastern European countries that you are not safe. But at this point you are basically making excuses for outright aggression, which isn't really helpful. So Russia can bully its neighbors and its 'justified' because 'NATO'? C'mon now. Red and Black posted:Yeah, it's so irrational for Russia to be scared of a hostile military alliance which has extended itself all the way to its borders .....when has NATO ever expressed interest in, say, overthrowing a Russia territory? This is just reaching at this point.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:48
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Red and Black posted:The Maidan coup lead to a pro-EU/US government as evidenced by them almost immediately taking on a huge IMF loan with structural adjustments. It really isn't that hard to connect the dots to potential NATO membership and handing over the naval base. This is the calculation Russia made and acted on. Russia promised Yanukovich a 15 billion loan that was cancelled amidst escalation of Maidan protests. Medvedev, then PM, explained that the loan would be back on the table if Yanukovich's government 'stopped being a doormat'.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:49
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Red and Black posted:As for the war in the Donbass, that's a matter of home grown separatists who also don't want to be part of Ukraine, and who object to the hyper nationalist government introduced in 2014 and its disregard for their culture and ethnicity. Russia has probably supported them, but at the core it's a problem that Ukraine brought on itself by alienating its own population. At its core is massive and continuous cash and arms support from Russia that helped bandits take over the region and make a stand since 2014. No one from the leadership of "Novorossia" (Borodai, Zacharchenko, Gubarev, Strelkov, Pushilin) were affiliated with the Regions Party that has been the main representative voice of Donbass prior to Maidan. Its not "probably" - active participation of Russian military was proven long time ago, as was their culpability in shooting down MH17 Red and Black posted:So you're saying that Russia has an equivalent of the Azov battalion? I'd love to see your evidence. Wagner Group that happily included DSHRG Rusich into itself after they got out of DNR (and escaped an inveitable fatal elevator accident)
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Feb 14, 2022 20:49
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CommieGIR posted:Or its just a territory grab and a demonstration to other Eastern European countries that you are not safe. But at this point you are basically making excuses for outright aggression, which isn't really helpful. I never said anything was 'justified', and you're just putting words in my mouth at this point. It's clear we have a difference of opinion on what motivated Russia's annexation of Crimea and you have no more or better evidence for your position than I do. I guess we'll leave it at that. CommieGIR posted:.....when has NATO ever expressed interest in, say, overthrowing a Russia territory? This is just reaching at this point. Is this a joke? NATO was literally founded to militarily oppose the USSR, Russia's predecessor state. Also they literally have been involved in overthrowing Russia-friendly governments in Eastern Europe
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Feb 14, 2022 20:50
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Red and Black posted:NATO can change their minds about that too Now you're just being silly. First of all this would require all Nato countries to agree to it, don't you find that a little unlikely? No, obviously you don't. We are done, thanks bye.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:51
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Red and Black posted:I never said anything was 'justified', and you're just putting words in my mouth at this point. It's clear we have a difference of opinion on what motivated Russia's annexation of Crimea and you have no more or better evidence for your position than I do. I guess we'll leave it at that. Forgive me but how is it supposed to be read as anything but? You keep giving these "Well Russia did x, y, and z because NATO" that's a justification that lays the blame for the actions of another (Putin/Russia) at the feed of someone not responsible (NATO) If it isn't a justification, okay I correct myself but maybe you should clarify: What should NATO have done?
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Feb 14, 2022 20:51
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pippy posted:I don't think it's too far off what some of them actually believe. I'll admit that I've fallen short of this before, but at least under the current D&D guidelines my understanding is that we're meant to engage with each other's arguments, not what we imagine to be in their heads.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:52
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More clarification: https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1493311203434807305?s=20&t=WBmarjnzb24fCYHX7G0e0g
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Feb 14, 2022 20:53
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CommieGIR posted:Forgive me but how is it supposed to be read as anything but? You keep giving these "Well Russia did x, y, and z because NATO" that's a justification that lays the blame for the actions of another (Putin/Russia) at the feed of someone not responsible (NATO) Explaining something and why it happened isn't justifying it. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. NATO should stop expanding for one. And enter negotiations with Russia and be sensitive to its legitimate security concern wrt for example NATO troops on its border, missile systems, etc.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:53
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