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Acebuckeye13 posted:Are Nazis in control of Ukraine's government? No. Does Ukraine have an entire battalion integrated into it's official armed forces that proudly and openly displays fascist insignia? Ok yes, maybe but lets not forget Russia bad
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Feb 14, 2022 20:17
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How are u posted:I think the problem is Putin, not Russia as a country or the Russian people themselves. Putin is the one in control here, the one threatening an aggressive war of imperial conquest. He can end this with a word. Even if Russia were a perfect democracy, it would still oppose NATOs expansion into Ukraine. It would still oppose NATO troops in Ukraine. It would still oppose western missiles in Ukraine. (and it would still be called a dictatorship by the western media) This is a matter of a core security concern and not of the personal ideology of one man, who by the way probably isn't as all powerful as you've convinced yourself he is.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:22
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How are u posted:I don't see any of that as justification for an aggressive war of expansion and imperial conquest. The only territory Russia took was Crimea, and that was because the right-wing coup in 2014 raised the real possibility of NATO taking over the naval base at Sevastopol. Also since you're so concerned with self-determination consider that the population of Crimea has wanted to join Russia since at least the 90s and were in favor of the take over. As for the war in the Donbass, that's a matter of home grown separatists who also don't want to be part of Ukraine, and who object to the hyper nationalist government introduced in 2014 and its disregard for their culture and ethnicity. Russia has probably supported them, but at the core it's a problem that Ukraine brought on itself by alienating its own population. If however you're talking about the much hyped 2022 Russia invasion of Ukraine: it's not happening. There will be no invasion. It's a western media fever dream. CommieGIR posted:But there just so happens to be some Nazis there, obviously the invasion must go on. Just don't look at the invading Nazis, those are different Nazis. So you're saying that Russia has an equivalent of the Azov battalion? I'd love to see your evidence.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:32
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CommieGIR posted:.....what? How would that lead to: 1. Ukraine becoming a NATO country, 2. Ukraine handing over Sevastpol to NATO? Even under a color revolution there wasn't an asterisk saying "If Ukraine goes full alt right then we'll welcome them aboard with open arms" The Maidan coup lead to a pro-EU/US government as evidenced by them almost immediately taking on a huge IMF loan with structural adjustments. It really isn't that hard to connect the dots to potential NATO membership and handing over the naval base. This is the calculation Russia made and acted on.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:37
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CommieGIR posted:No, because key NATO members would still refuse to ratify Ukraine joining NATO. Again, this is very much a conspiracy theory, not founded in actual events. There has never been anything suggesting a conditional change in government was going to make Ukraine a NATO member. Maybe, or maybe Germany and France change their minds and let Ukraine in. Russia made its judgement based on the potential evolution of events following the 2014 coup. In any case, a western friendly government being installed on their border wasn't good news and in their mind justified action
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Feb 14, 2022 20:40
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mmkay posted:Didn't the government of Ukraine offer to extend the least of their (you know Ukrainian, ie. not Russian) naval base, before Russia made the offer moot by just invading and taking it over, of course. Dunno. Probably not Nenonen posted:That's just not going to happen as long as there is an ongoing territorial dispute, sorry! NATO can change their minds about that too
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Feb 14, 2022 20:43
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CommieGIR posted:But that's not what this is about? You are throwing around conjecture about what you think NATO would do despite all evidence and public statements. Sure it is. As evidence by the fact that it happened and that this is the most likely explanation of Russia's reasoning
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Feb 14, 2022 20:46
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CareyB posted:Fixed. You could’ve at least held up an argument over the strategic necessity of the Black Sea base to Russia instead of just being so scared of NATO lol. Yeah, it's so irrational for Russia to be scared of a hostile military alliance which has extended itself all the way to its borders
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Feb 14, 2022 20:48
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CommieGIR posted:Or its just a territory grab and a demonstration to other Eastern European countries that you are not safe. But at this point you are basically making excuses for outright aggression, which isn't really helpful. I never said anything was 'justified', and you're just putting words in my mouth at this point. It's clear we have a difference of opinion on what motivated Russia's annexation of Crimea and you have no more or better evidence for your position than I do. I guess we'll leave it at that. CommieGIR posted:.....when has NATO ever expressed interest in, say, overthrowing a Russia territory? This is just reaching at this point. Is this a joke? NATO was literally founded to militarily oppose the USSR, Russia's predecessor state. Also they literally have been involved in overthrowing Russia-friendly governments in Eastern Europe
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Feb 14, 2022 20:50
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CommieGIR posted:Forgive me but how is it supposed to be read as anything but? You keep giving these "Well Russia did x, y, and z because NATO" that's a justification that lays the blame for the actions of another (Putin/Russia) at the feed of someone not responsible (NATO) Explaining something and why it happened isn't justifying it. I'm not sure what's hard to understand about that. NATO should stop expanding for one. And enter negotiations with Russia and be sensitive to its legitimate security concern wrt for example NATO troops on its border, missile systems, etc.
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Feb 14, 2022 20:53
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Generation Internet posted:I find it disingenuous that you're spending so much time focused on Russia's legitimate security concerns when half their military has been moved to the border of a country they formerly controlled and partially reinvaded 8 years ago. I mean, Russia is well within its rights to move its troops around inside of Russia. Also I don't think the claimed 100,000 troops is quite "half" of the Russian army
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Feb 14, 2022 21:00
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Obviously Russia is not within its rights to invade Ukraine
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Feb 14, 2022 21:03
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orcane posted:Why is that odd? How likely is it that these US jets will be used in (hidden? what?) attacks on Russia, the one country with enough nuclear weapons to rival the United States? How many times have the US used forces stationed in Europe to attack Russia? How is that even comparable The US was one of several countries that invaded Russia right after the 1917 Revolution
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Feb 14, 2022 21:14
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How are u posted:Do you think the United States and/or NATO are willing to or interested in invading Russia today? No, probably not a direct invasion. I'm just pointing out that countries like the US, UK, France, and Germany have an extensive history of invading and attacking Russia and Russia has good reason to be wary of a military alliance that contains all four.
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Feb 14, 2022 21:19
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How are u posted:If a democracy wants to join NATO and the existing members agree, why shouldn't they be allowed? It is a defensive alliance. More nations joining together in a defensive alliance seems like a good thing, in and of itself. It's only a bad thing for nations that are interested in conquest, who might be thwarted by a defensive alliance of nations that they would otherwise be interested in conquering. Well, except that NATO itself is an alliance of conquest as seen in Serbia, Afghanistan, and Libya
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Feb 14, 2022 21:28
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Sinteres posted:I'm inclined to say Afghanistan at least involved self defense, even if the end result was obviously horrifying. You really shouldn't though. The Taliban offered to turn Bin Laden over. The entire war could have easily been avoided. orcane posted:Chechnya (1994, 1999) You realize these are part of Russia, yeah?
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Feb 14, 2022 21:30
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Shes Not Impressed posted:What is it with you and these thought terminating cliches? Interesting. What do you think a thought terminating cliche is?
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Feb 14, 2022 21:37
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Can someone give me a run down on what evidence there is that Russia even invaded the Donbass?
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Feb 14, 2022 21:38
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CommieGIR posted:https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2015/11/13/136-brigade-in-donbass/ Paladinus posted:Here's a good video from back in the day. Thank you
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Feb 14, 2022 21:47
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As far as leftist-ish video content goes, the Gravel institute put out a pretty good explainer on all the Nazis riddling Ukraine's government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtOx6dW_0vU
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Feb 19, 2022 22:28
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Fritz the Horse posted:fwiw this video also explicitly points out that it's untrue and Russian propaganda to claim that Ukraine is "governed by Nazis" or full of Nazis. I'm not saying you made that claim, the video does indeed talk about the growing far-right in Ukraine (supported by the US) and how many affiliated people are gaining positions of power as your post states. I mean Ukraine was in fact partially governed by Nazis. As you yourself state they held key posts in the Ukrainian government. The Svoboda party literally used call itself the social nationalists so pretty much a direct homage to the Nazi party. Can’t say how much power they hold in the current government though. And its true that not all Ukrainian are Nazis but thats kind of obvious I think.
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Feb 19, 2022 22:48
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Weyd posted:If you want to share youtube videos, then I'd say that Adam Something gives a good eastern european perspective to the conflict in a video form. lol, in this video he explicitly states that the American empire is better because it only uses “soft power” (someone should tell the Iraqis) and it doesn’t annex territory (someone should tell Mexico, Guam, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, etc) At least he’s right in saying Russia probably wont invade
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Feb 19, 2022 22:54
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OddObserver posted:If you can't, why are you commenting? They have a single seat FPTP seat, and are not part of the government. Yeah but they were in 2014 and look at all the damage they did. They’re basically responsible for the civil war
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Feb 19, 2022 22:55
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Raenir Salazar posted:I feel partially governed implies like, several key posts in the cabinet; or a power sharing agreement. What posts do these far right figures hold in the government? You should watch the video, it goes into which cabinet posts they held and also what policies they were able to enact. Pretty chilling stuff
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Feb 19, 2022 23:03
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OddObserver posted:Nah, to Russian enablers the 2014 invasion is a "civil war" since they are incapable of seeing all the Russians calling the shots, or, you know, entire Russian armored divisions that were involved. I mean a lot of these areas have a history of wanting to defect from Ukraine. Crimea even had a referendum on it in the 90s which overwhelmingly favored leaving Ukraine. When a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists took power in 2014 and (among other detestable policies) basically tried to ban Russian in common usage, the result was the civil war. It’s true that Russia has exploited this and has been militarily involved, but its afactual for you to pretend there isn’t local support for these anti-Kiev uprisings.
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Feb 19, 2022 23:08
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cinci zoo sniper posted:You’d think that, but it’s a major line in Kremlin’s propaganda, that a fair number of people does reiterate one way or another. Thanks, this is a really useful post. But if you know, can you tell me why is the Azov batallion still part of national guard? And are there any indications the current government will recognize Russian as an official language again in certain areas with lots of ethnic Russians?
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Feb 19, 2022 23:15
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OddObserver posted:Russian has never been an official language. It has always been a language people have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to use. quote:No, they did not. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum quote:
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Feb 19, 2022 23:26
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OddObserver posted:Maybe you should get better sources. Maybe you should as you were apparently unaware of both the Crimean referendum and that Russia was an official language in Ukraine
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Feb 19, 2022 23:51
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