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Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Truga posted:

until recently us/korea did bigger joint exercises every couple years on north korean border and it barely even got mentioned in the news lol
Yes, though only the US forces mostly consisted of units permanently garrisoned in South Korea. A better analogy would be if the annual Foal Eagle exercise also consisted of having a Marine division in amphibious boats 50 miles off of Namp'o and moved an additional three Army divisions to South Korea.

It's not the worst analogy, though: it's still only a cease-fire, and border incidents aren't uncommon (though mostly less common as time goes on).

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Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Flavahbeast posted:

I can see why Trump never got his tank parade, those things look like a huge pain to deal with

Fun fact: US armored vehicles use rubber treads all the time and so don't tear up the roads quite as badly. Heavy vehicles hauling around at 80kph do damage roads and bridges, of course, but the treads help a lot. The rubber pads do wear out over time, so you can definitely get to the point where you're tearing up pavement, but at that point you're putting a lot of stress on the treads themselves which is bad for safety reasons.

:science:

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Alchenar posted:

It's not about getting people to believe the Russian line, it's providing a hundred possible hooks for people looking for a reason to doubt the Western narrative.
This is worth re-posting. This is how misinformation campaigns work. It's not that they convince you a particular thing is true: it's that they force you to doubt everything else. Russia is very, very good at maskirovka, and arguably has been since at least the Second World War. They're good at it strategically, operationally, and tactically. If decision makers are less certain as to the facts, they spend more time verifying, and less time deciding and acting. This certainly help if you're going to invade someone, but can advance Russia's aims even if they don't.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

paul_soccer12 posted:

this post seems to indicate that the Western narrative is also the true narrative?

Not necessarily, but Western nations tend not to launch multiple, intentionally-conflicting narratives across as many public channels as possible. Because Western media is (mostly) not state-owned, they tend to follow their own individual narratives.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

ronya posted:

Big if true?

https://twitter.com/maryilyushina/status/1493875669809442816

Exercises are scheduled to end in four days right?

I can think of at least one way this can be 100% true without having those forces return to Russia.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Majority of people actively posting here read Russian just fine. That said, since "translate tweet" button is on holiday, here's the short content of each document (identical copies for LNR and DNR):

1. recognize them as a sovereign nation
2. establish diplomatic relationships
3. establish a cooperation agreement
4. send in the army to support peace until (3) is done
5. effective now

Just wanted to say thanks for posting this synopsis. I'm a monolingual American (enough Spanish to travel notwithstanding), but getting information from primary sources is nice.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

That direction won't be the main avenue of attack. I'd put money on it now, unless Russian doctrine is markedly different today than that of 1930 to when I stopped paying attention around 2005.

This has the feel of Bagration, at least from this distance.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
Stay safe Ukrainian goons. And, yes, Russian goons too. War is hell.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Zotix posted:

There's no way this is true. To airdrop and take Kiev airport would take dozens of airplanes. We'd see videos of antiaircraft fire of which we're seeing none.

Not necessarily.

  • Air strikes and short-range ballistic missiles take out a few key AA emplacements.
  • Helicopters transport Spetsnaz units to the airport.

The goal of an operation like that isn't to hold the airport forever, but serves a few purposes:

  • Prevent Ukrainian leaders from escaping.
  • Prevent Western aid from landing. (Perhaps unnecessarily - it looks like various aircraft were exiting Ukraine's airspace very quickly.)
  • Deny an airfield to the Ukrainian air force.
  • Force Ukraine's military to react to a force behind their lines. This takes soldiers, time, and--especially important early in an attack--decision cycles.

A relatively small group of motivated soldiers could hold an airport for a few days - more than long enough for mechanized forces to reach the airport.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Zotix posted:

Where's the footage? Flying in any of these forces is no small feat. It would be dozens of planes/ helicopters.

Lack of footage on Twitter is not proof of something not happening. You don't necessarily land at the airport, either: you can drop into an LZ a few kilometers away and walk in or even drive with pre-positioned civilian trucks. Lots of options. And yes, anything like this is risky and can go to poo poo very quickly, but Russia's military is very much capable of air mobile operations in addition to airborne operations.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Jarmak posted:

There are some crazy stunts in history where something like that has been pulled off, but having participated in actual airfield seizure exercises I'm super skeptical of control being announced that fast.

Even jumping on to an abandoned, friendly airfield just for practice there're always a half dozen dumb things that cause confusion or go wrong that make things take hours.

It's just hard to believe they wrapped the thing up and put out a press release that fast. I'd expect they'd still be just trying to get accountability of where the gently caress everyone landed at the point these tweets came out.

Very good points. It's also just as possible right now that it's effectively part of the maskirovka. I.e. Get a few tweets out that seem authentic claiming something happened. Sow uncertainty and force Ukraine's military leadership to spend decision cycles verifying things that are unlikely to be true. It's also likely that while the "main" attacks began at 4:00am local, other, non-kinetic operations started far earlier.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Rad Russian posted:

Kharkhiv according to the stream I'm watching that is following social media reports live. That's from a while ago. It's already daylight in Ukraine.

Add-on: The two SU-25s in the video have to be Ukrainian, as Russia wouldn't fly those out alone, and they have lots of newer stuff. They should build monuments in the future to the two Ukrainian pilots willingly getting into a 25-year-old aircraft to go up against a modern airforce.

The Russian Air Force also has SU-25s. It's a bit older in design, originally released in the 1970s. The airframes themselves may be much newer, of course.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Nenonen posted:

It's going to be just like Stalingrad, except Ukrainians are the surrounded 6th Army.

Don't forget the Red Army suffered horrendous losses as well: over a million casualties. The German and Axis armies just couldn't afford them as easily. I don't think we'll see something on that scale, but if Ukraine has a few ten thousand soldiers in Kiev, they could hold out a very long time if their morale holds.

Somaen posted:

The last time an Ukrainian president fled Kyiv it did not look good. Doing anything similar to Yanukovich is very bad optics

I don't think it's about optics. I think he's actually just a brave person.

Baronash posted:

...do you really think that England, France, or the US would consider an invasion of Estonia an "existential threat" to themselves? That a US president and US citizens would weather nuclear bombings as the unavoidable cost of defending freedom in Latvia? Sure, the US is sending troops there now as a show of force, but do you truly feel we would do the same if the build-up we saw in advance of this war was occurring on the borders of a NATO country?
Not without a tripwire. The troops are the tripwire. That model has worked very successfully in South Korea. Would the US populace go to war for 500K Estonians? No. For 5K dead American soldiers? Yes.

Nfcknblvbl posted:

Imagine all the tweets from Trump begging Putin to stop all this if he were president.

He'd be alternating between cheering him on and saying that he would have captured Kiev by now.

Operational Stuff: Here's my best take on what the Russian military is trying to do:
  • Draw Ukrainian forces east. This was largely successful, and was done before the full invasion.
  • Cut off those eastern forces along the Kharkiv-Dneiper line. Push from the south to establish a land route to Crimea, but leave Ukrainian forces in a pocket. The southern push seems to be going okay. Some reports are that the Russians got onto the western shore of the Dneiper and then pushed back, but that's okay. Holding the east bank meets most of their objectives just fine.
  • Seize Kiev as quickly as possible, mostly to decapitate the government.
  • If Kharkiv and Kiev are both invested, that makes it much harder for Ukraine to fully mobilize.

Keep in mind that Russia has a much higher tolerance for casualties than the West has been since the 1991 Gulf War.

Tank stuff:
  • The inside of tanks are very tight, and Russian tanks far more so than their Western counterparts. Lots of history as to "why", but the tl;dr is that for a bunch of historical reasons Western tanks tend to be larger and have larger turrets. Even then, armored vehicles can look like travel wagons in a hurry.
  • Adding metal grills to the outside of armored vehicles can help against certain types of anti-armor weapons. Wikipedia actually has a decent article describing how non-kinetic anti-armor munitions work, and it's these munitions such countermeasures are intended to affect. The problem is that everyone has been using multi-layer armor for decades at this point; reactive-explosive armor is the "heavier" version of adding metal grills. So, most modern, man-portable anti-armor systems have multiple, sequential warheads (called "tandem warheads"). The metal grills could cause the first warhead to detonate, but the second one goes right through. Basically, they could help against older, simpler devices like the venerable RPG-7, but are very unlikely to help against Javelins, TOWs, etc. Fun fact: there are rumors that upcoming missiles will have three tandem warheads. It will be like modern shaving razors over time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_anti-tank

Opsec stuff: Ukraine's opsec does seem pretty tight right now. I wonder if part of it was the lessons learned in 2014. The Russians basically deleted two Ukrainian tank battalions in that war with the following sequence:
  • Focused electronic warfare systems to block military radio frequencies for those tank battalions.
  • Waited for the tankers to use their cell phones to start calling each other.
  • Used GPS coordinates from the cellphones to know where the vehicles are.
  • Fired GPS-guided long-range artillery rounds from a couple artillery battalions, simultaneously.
The rumor is that the US DOD watched that play out in real-time on SIGINT and satellite, and had an "oh gently caress our armored forces would totally do that" moment.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

TheRat posted:

NATO is not going to protect panama-regged ships in the black sea dude.

With shipping companies flagging and paying no taxes for decades in countries with no labor or environmental laws, I can't really pity the shipowners. I feel pity for the crews, though. I agree that NATO is unlikely to do more than tut-tut if these are close to Ukraine's shore, but if Russia starts going further afield things could escalate very quickly.

Mokotow posted:

At the border now between Poland and Ukraine. Absolute mess, cold, terrified people coming through every once in a while. Since there’s no organization, me and some likeminded people waiting but despite the government announcements people will be free to go through, only cars are coming. I already have contacts to someone on the other side but they’re saying it’ll be two hours for them to cross. gently caress its cold.

Do you have a Paypal wallet you'd be willing to PM me? I can't do much but I can buy you and a couple refugees a hot meal, at least.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Vaginaface posted:

How much of this is Ukrainian military success, how much of this is Russia slowing as peace talks begin?

Typically you don't slow down a successful offensive when peace talks start: you accelerate them to put yourself into a better bargaining position. The exception is that if reducing hostilities is somehow beneficial to your bargaining position.

Shes Not Impressed posted:

NATO jets and ships on high alert does feel like an escalation I wasn't expecting.
They really do seem spooked by Belarus' role in all this.

It's likely the commercial shipping that has them spooked. It's also possible (though I'm speculating 100% here) that there are air-to-air encounters that don't result in shooting but aren't getting reported.

Trump posted:

As someone mentioned earlier it's almost certainly cluster submunitions. And thats what real explosions are, extreme kinetic force.

Yeah, less fireballs and more things just getting thrown around and/or ripped apart. It's the wet season in Ukraine so not as much dust as you may have seen from footage in e.g. Afghanistan and Iraq.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

happyhippy posted:

Im not a military head, but parking helicopters in a line in a random field isn't exactly efficient.
Surely there has to be a base the pilots are in, wouldn't you have all your vehicles close to run to?

Eh, highways are flat, that would be easy to have trucks with fuel and ammo move down, and it's easy to navigate to/away. An airbase is better, but airstrips are really just wide roads for planes, and helicopters are meant to land and takeoff from lots of terrain types.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Inner Light posted:

In video games, I have seen MTB LAW units are reloadable. IRL though, it seems these entire things just work once then you cannot reload them, right?

It is a one-shot weapon. The launcher is disposable.

Tank stuff: Those tank traps won't stop a modern main battle tank. If partially-buried, they may be able to stop a BTR or other wheeled vehicle, which typically have less torque to push through obstacles. Molotovs won't disable armored vehicles but can still be useful: they'll destroy gear--including ammunition--stored on the outside, can blind optics, and prevent the passengers (including infantry passengers) and crew from exiting. It's also a focused illumination source at night: i.e. it will let people with rocket launchers but without low-light/thermal optics see the target from cover.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

I'm sorry I didn't realize the law of thermodynamics ended in 1939. Tank still gets hot if it's in flames. And your air supply becomes a little dicey with smoke.
Seeing as most likely the air filters in the tanks are missing/sold

Tanks--even Russian tanks--are big, and have a lot of metal. A few kilograms of alcohol lit on fire won't generate enough heat to make a meaningful difference on the inside. Russian vehicles are designed for NBC environments; their filters will generally handle smoke just fine. What can happen with a little luck is if you can get some enflamed material into the filter. The filters themselves can catch on fire, and that smoke can be very toxic depending on what the filter is made of. US tanks used to have filters with Chromium-6 in them (the same poo poo in the movie Eric Brokovich), though those were replaced over 20 years ago. I don't know what filters Russian vehicles use, though I doubt they were "sold". Who would one sell them too? It's not like a BTR-80's NBC filter fits into your home heating system.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

MadJackal posted:

How is that weapon useful for anything other than terrorizing a large area of civilians?

It's useful for targeting large areas with soft targets: headquarters units; communications vehicles; supply trucks; infantry in the open. That sort of thing. They can destroy many lightly-armored vehicles such as older APCs, but are unlikely to take out main battle tanks. Even then, they can damage optics, break tracks, knock off an antenna, and otherwise degrade heavy armor.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Young Freud posted:

A lot of people are saying their disposable like a AT4.

They're semi-disposable: the Javelin consist of a preloaded launch tube and a Command Launch Unit (CLU), a set of sights and launcher controls. When fired, the tube is disposed of but CLU comes off and a new launch tube is attached.



I think they were asking specifically about the NLAW, which is a newer man-portable anti-tank missile built by the UK and Sweden. It came out around 2009, I think? The Javelin is a bit older. Similar concepts and capabilities, though.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Mokotow posted:

For any one willing to chip in gas money, you can paypal me @kylofon . Don’t need much but it’d help. Thanks!

Just learned the two girls Im waiting for are 12 and 15 and also there a cat. Still waiting though, apparently their mom will hand them off and shes going back to the dad waiting on the other side.

Just sent you a bit. If you don't need it, then get the girls something they need. Take care.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
For those deploring Russian operational prowess because a plane gets shot down, or a large air assault fails, keep in mind that Russia has a far higher tolerance for casualties than Western nations, and thus is willing to take larger operational risks if it means achieving better strategic ends. Strategically, it's better to end the war quickly (as it almost always is), and Kiev falling in days versus weeks or in weeks versus months could result in a significant difference to Putin.

My current take is that the original air assault was probably fairly well executed; the Russians just plain got beat. The fact that Ukraine was able to pull an entire brigade out of wherever it was in order to counterattack and re-take the airfield speaks very highly of their own operational capabilities. As for landing large planes now? It's a calculated risk. If you get a few dozen on the ground, you now have another few hundred infantry or light armor to apply pressure and further secure your aerial resupply. Even if you lose several, you're likely to get a lot of military power in a place you really want to have it much faster than waiting for the armored formations in the north to get through.

Furthermore, #fuckputin

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Randarkman posted:

What are you basing this assumption on? This isn't WWII, if it's one thing that Russia really can't afford to just throw away its young people. And even if we go back to the Soviet Union, during the Afghan war the steady casualties from that were a source of mounting discontent.

I'm basing this opinion on legacy Soviet doctrine, subsequent Russian doctrine, Russian operations in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria, etc., and current behavior (which is largely in line with the former elements). Casualty tolerance is relative. I don't mean to say they have infinite capacity to withstand casualties, only that they can and will (and have been!) show(ing) a willingness to lose more soldiers in exchange for a faster operational pace.

acidx posted:

I don't know that I necessarily buy this. On the one hand, their rhetoric has been that Ukraine is controlled by a Nazi dictatorship, and based on what some of these soldiers were saying early on, it's almost as if they expected to be greeted as liberators, or at least, not resisted in any real form. Taking big losses kind of counters that narrative. But this is Russia we're talking about, so there's nothing stopping them from saying that the plane had a malfunction or just saying "what plane?" altogether. I dunno. Always hard to sort the truth out of all the lies.

It's absolutely a possibility that Russian commanders have been surprised at the fight Ukraine is putting up.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

wins32767 posted:

So here's something I don't get. The mechanized attack on Kiev came down from Belorussia ... ~180km, which they've managed in 2 days. That says that the bridge wasn't blown and that no meaningful forces were put in front of them to slow them down. I don't get that decision. I guess the Ukrainians want to fight in Kiev? It's a really long single road logistical tether for the Russians to be pushing supplies and reinforcements down, so maybe that's it?

180km in two days doesn't mean there was no meaningful resistance: it just means there wasn't enough to slow it down more. 180km in two days is averaging a few km an hour, which means they were likely in contact for large parts of that push.

You can trade space for time, and space for better ground. Propaganda aside, you really shouldn't fight for every last cm of ground, so a fighting withdrawal to Kiev makes sense.

Recoome posted:

When was the last time a combatant lost so many paratroopers in the plane? Between this and the failed airfield assault, this has got to be some of the worst employment of air assault forces we’ve seen in a while. Extremely clear that the Russians do not have air superiority at all.

Probably Operation Market Garden in 1944. The Soviets conducted a few airborne operations in WW2, with mixed results. They conducted a lot of air assault operations in Afghanistan, which went well until the Mujahadeen started getting Stingers. I'm really curious how the various anti-aircraft systems are performing, but I doubt much will be in the OSINT world for months or years.

Mustard Iceman posted:

Is insurgents loving supply lines still even a possibility in these days?

Yes. It's difficult and partisans will suffer heavy casualties, but it's absolutely doable. Drones provide a lot of visibility on supply routes, though. Giving Ukraine access to anti-drone technology (which admittedly is still newish) will be important.

Mr Luxury Yacht posted:

A lot of this is making me wonder if Putin maybe originally was just planning for a small incursion to take Donbass and in a last minute brain mush ploy decided to just say "gently caress it" and go for the whole country without giving his forces time to prepare. So much of this has seemed just kludged together in terms of planning.

I disagree. I think this was very well-planned, but as the saying goes, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. This plan really didn't, I think in part because Russian intelligence (or at least, Russian decision-makers) dramatically underestimated Ukraine's will to fight.

Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:

...why are russian military vehicles trying to ram barricades??? like, the better thing to do would be to hang back and shoot enough bullets and shells at the barricades to (1) scare off anyone nearby from trying to gently caress with you (2) clear out the barricade enough so that you don't have to slam your vehicles into it. what in the gently caress is the plan here?

It's easier to use a 30- or 50-ton vehicle to push through a barricade. Video games and movies have ruined people's realistic expectations of how munitions work. Bullets--even large kinetic cannon rounds--are quite small. A 50mm cannon will punch a bunch of...50mm holes. Explosives can help, but can also just scatter the barricade around so that you have to drive over and through a bunch of smaller obstacles.

Charlz Guybon posted:

Anyway to sabotage [armored vehicles] so they can't run again?

Yes. Take off panels and clip electrical and fuel lines. Spray paint every vision block (window), especially the sights. Military engines are pretty resilient (US tanks will literally run on sludge if that's all you have), but put sugar/sand in the fuel tanks. If you're inside, take a hammer to any LCD screens or status lights. Take the firing pin out of the main cannon (usually part of the breech assembly). If you have some of the vehicle's tools and some time, unhook some track blocks and throw them into a swamp. Spray paint the sides with glossy, reflective paint.

Observations & Predictions (based on studying this poo poo since the mid-80's and some time as a junior officer, so grains of salt, etc. etc.):
  • If Russia has truly lost 3,500 killed, that's...a lot. Typically you wound more soldiers than you kill, and body armor and modern trauma care have increased this ratio in recent decades (selection bias: events that would have killed you in 1990 just wound you now). That said, I don't know how good Russian battlefield trauma care is. The number may be an exaggeration, or it may not. Either way 3,500 dead is plausible.
  • If Ukraine can keep the bulk of Russian forces out of Kiev for a week, things get much harder for Russia. Russian supply lines are short, but getting fuel, ammunition, spare parts, etc. to tens of thousands of soldiers in a fairly concentrated area is hard. The great left hook of Desert Storm didn't work due to tactical brilliance: it worked due to logistics. (Well, that and GPS.)
  • Russia is largely ignoring Ukraine west of Kiev. This might be a mistake, though potentially one driven by the fact that even very large militaries don't have infinite resources. Lviv is a very large city--and thus a source for soldiers--and if other countries are serious about providing significant military aid, Ukraine could conceivably raise, arm, and train a very large force in a few weeks or months if they can hold out that long.
  • NATO is almost certainly feeding intelligence to Ukraine. This is good and we should keep doing so.
  • I've been wondering how Ukraine has managed to retain decent command and control, continue having its national leadership communicate, etc. Russia should have been able to dramatically degrade these capabilities. It's possible they just whiffed, but I wonder if NATO is also providing communications capabilities (encrypted frequency-hopping satellite comms, that sort of thing).
  • As well as things are going tactically and operationally for Ukraine right now--and they are probably going better than anyone had any right to believe, at least based on OSINT--after a time numbers do matter. Kiev and other Ukrainian cities in the east are likely to fall, at least in conventional terms.
  • So far Ukraine seems to be a decent case study in the value in electing good people, rather than technocrats, in democracies. At least, doing so when faced with existential threats. There's very little policy that can help Ukraine at the moment, but the positive example of literal city mayors fighting in the streets for their cities is astonishing.
  • Young Freud made a great insight: operationally this does seem very similar to the Russian invasion of Georgia.
  • Putin may need to actively purge some in his leadership. It's the traditional way autocrats maintain power after large, public failures. Even military victory in Ukraine may not be enough to avoid that label.
  • NATO will start re-arming for realsies. I'm not sure the US needs to, but even if the NATO countries started meeting their military spending obligations under the treaty it would significantly improve NATO's defensive posture. Of some note, one of the biggest lacks is around logistics. One of the former US EUCOM commanders noted that he didn't need more German tanks; he needed more German railcars.
  • If Finland and/or Sweden want into NATO, now's the time.
  • Re: Tanks running out of petrol: tanks don't typically have a 700km range. Even if they did, they consume an awful lot of fuel just idling. The US Abrams takes 10 gallons (37 liters) just to start the engine (or did, many years ago - it may have improved very slightly). Also, one reason to idle the engine? It typically runs the heater, and it's still cold in Ukraine, especially in a large metal box. So running out of fuel is definitely a possibility if you've been maneuvering hard trying to get around Ukrainian Javelin throwers.
  • If Ukraine is managing to keep its mechanized forces relatively intact (urban environments are great for hiding armored vehicles, btw.) that gives them a much better fighting chance. I hope they're doing so, but as they lose the ability to contest the air (and they almost certainly will), those mechanized forces will be destroyed in detail if they're in the open.
  • The TOS-1A's short range is perfectly adequate in urban terrain, alas.
  • It is extremely unsettling for me to be reading Marco Rubio tweets and thinking to myself, "He's playing a good and useful part in the counter-intel game." Like, the guy is actually doing his loving job as a Senator of the United States.
  • Ukraine smiley should be a great big pair of balls. In blue and yellow, perhaps.

Things not to forget:
  • Trump was impeached the first time for witholding military aid to Ukraine.
  • "It is important to remember that the nazis werent beaten by dialogue or nonviolent resistance. They were shot in the head, and the rest were hanged." --Keisari (too good to not re-quote).
  • #fuckputin

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Telsa Cola posted:

That sound is every intelligence agency popping a massive boner at seeing how this stuff stacks up against NATO equipment.

Yeah, for real (as macabre as that is). Older Russian armored vehicles is not a surprise or an indication that they're spread thin: it's just part of the doctrine. For example, Guards units (a designation typically indicating better training, equipment, etc.) are not sent in first: they are sent in to exploit success.

I wouldn't assume that "T-14s will not be ready until late 2022" to be accurate. Nations routinely claim to have fewer of the newest hotness than they do. There's an old SPI war game called Next War whose public version had its order of battle based on publicly-released information on units and equipment. I think they had three F-15 squadrons. At the time, the US had eighteen. I would not at all be surprised if Russia has multiple battalions equipped with the T-14.

Why does this matter for :ukraine:? The T-14 has a lot of tech invested in keeping it safe from anti-tank missiles like the NLAW and the Javelin. If they show up in large numbers, we'll probably see how they do in a real fight. :shrug:

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

KitConstantine posted:

Here's the Russian take on events.

Click through the quoted tweet to get to the article, but it's loving bad.

https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1497720524885082113?t=ys8e93e9KAzUprUOZKojVQ&s=19

Please let that be a bad translation. Such language has only one meaning, and Putiin knows his history. :(

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

cinci zoo sniper posted:

I’m a native Russian speaker. It’s accurate.

gently caress. Truly, I'm trying not to clancypost, but NATO membership or no I hope we don't stand by if this becomes genocide. War is bad enough, but that... that would be even more terrible.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
I just remembered something re: running out of fuel. To some degree, it's part of very, very old Soviet doctrine. One of the ways they used Mechanized Corps during the Great Patriotic War (World War 2) was to push a Mechanized Corps through a breach and drive as far as the gas lasted. Right before the gas runs out, it sets up defensive positions, ideally in a line surrounding something, usually with other mechanized/breakthrough forces trying to meet from the other side of an envelopment. Then, hold onto your pants and hope resupply gets to you before a major counterattack from outside the "pocket".

They're not quite doing that here, though. Instead, they're pushing along major axis of advance and trying to envelop cities. They may be enveloping Ukrainian forces further east in/near Donbas. That part of the front seems to have the least OSINT, at least ITT. That may be because western journalists are mostly in/around Kiev.

buglord posted:

maybe this is getting off in the weeds but how fuel hungry are these tanks? I saw a few pages back that an Abrahams takes around 10 gallons just to get started? Even if that was only 5 that is bonkers to my toyota corollafied world. Tanks seem much more "on a leash" than I thought because of this.
An Abrams gets about 2 gallons to the mile, or about 2.35 liters to the km. Keep in mind it's a 70-ton vehicle fully-loaded, so quite a bit heavier than Russian tanks. I would think they get better distance per unit of fuel, but I wouldn't expect it to be anything amazing.

Edit: Not the best snipe, but hopefully interesting to a few of our loyal readers!

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
Interesting question above, at least for an American who's not very familiar with the inner workings of the EU. How likely does this make the EU create its own defense apparatus in parallel (coordination?) with NATO? Or do the 6 EU-non-NATO countries just go "gently caress it" and join NATO?

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Trump posted:

Europe already have all kinds of different military frameworks. There is the EU battlegroup, the Franco-German Brigade/Eurocorps, the Combined Joint Expeditionary Force (french and british) etc.

But this is going to change everything. I even see Denmark joining in on the EU Battlegroup.

I hadn't read about those before. Thanks! Are the national units that comprise the EU battlegroups also part of NATO structures (for those countries in both), or are they wholly separate parts of their countries' respective militaries?

Edit because this thread moves fast:

TulliusCicero posted:

They were teased as a major Arc antagonist but ended up being jobbers

:discourse:

Ynglaur fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Feb 27, 2022

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Peanut Butler posted:

"thank you mr rubio for telling us exactly where our leaks are"

Marco Rubio is a horrible chud, but the pacing and language actually speaks to a very deliberate counter-intel operation. When you release intel like this, you make drat sure you only release things that you have from multiple, independent and preferably unassociated sources. You try to corroborate as much as possible. Famously, Trump didn't do this because he would just spew out classified poo poo if he thought it would make a crowd swoon or something, and the US lost a lot of humint sources as a results.

I'm obviously speculating, but I think Rubio is actually doing this correctly. Tbf, he probably has a few coaches in whatever three-letter agency is coordinating this counter-intel operation.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

ZombieLenin posted:

What the gently caress is that supposed to mean? Could homeboy be more cryptic?

I think he's implying that recent orders sent to Russian commanders are:
  • Intercepted by the West (and probably forwarded to Ukraine)
  • Illegal under the Geneva Convention

He's basically taunting the Russians that they have multiple leaks in terms of operational plans, and at the same time sowing doubt among their operational and tactical leaders who may somehow hear of his tweet that maybe they shouldn't commit warcrimes.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Peanut Butler posted:

yah I was being a lil flippant/jokey
I don't think Rubio is in the faction that's behind Putin's regime (a low bar to clear)

:hfive:

Okay I'm going to bed. Enough doomscrolling for one day.

#fuckputin

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Trump posted:

Can you add President to my name?

Only if you put "Former" on front of that.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
Alchenar - Thanks for posting that brief analysis form @delfoo. I'm unsure of the author's experience, but the analysis seems solid.

Phlegmish posted:

...people earlier in the thread were pointing out that the Battle of Baghdad took several weeks...so I suppose that if Russia achieves its objectives within the following days, that's still arguably a success. Problem is that it's not very clear what those objectives even are.
Emphasis mine. I'd say your analogy to the Battle of Baghdad is even stronger, then.

fatherboxx posted:

It is befuddling to see them repeat The First Chechen war mistakes again with the only learnt lesson being "destroy opposition at home so its easier to not disclose the losses".
I was thinking the same thing last night. It's as if the Russian military leadership forgot every single lesson in that war, despite showing in conflicts since then that they learned them very well.

Russian formations on the road are consistently not following good air defense or local security protocols. Turrets all pointed forwards; vehicles spaced tightly together; nobody outside the vehicles pulling local security when stopped; etc. It looks like a loving amateur hour.

GABA ghoul posted:

If even half of it turns out to be accurate I think the stripped down European broom stick armies might actually be adequately equipped to defend us.
I mean no disrespect, but they are not. Remember that Ukraine has been preparing for this since 2014. Most European militaries have not.

Urban Warfare stuff:
General_Disturbed asked a great question around, "How does goon take city in modern warfare?" It really comes down to your political objectives. Do you need to subdue the populace? Is there an active, well-supplied, and dug-in garrison? Are you merely trying to establish that you can't be harmed? It really, really depends.

In the classic sense of "capture the ground, subdue the population, install a friendly government", then you need a lot of soldiers. Think about it this way: how many police officers does it take to maintain basic order in Paris? What about Los Angeles? You need at least those many soldiers, even with a populace that's not actively trying to kill you.

In terms of taking the ground itself, if the city is fortified and garrisoned, typically you isolate the city, try to get civilians out (it's the right thing to do, and they also just get in the way), and then you go in block by block. You typically need about 1,000 soldiers for every 1km of front. You'll advance around 100m a day, and take 2-10% casualties per day of those groups of 1,000 soldiers. These numbers have not meaningfully changed since WW2. (Seriously: go look at the numbers from the Second Battle of Fallujah.) US operational doctrine for hard kinetic motions against urban terrain hasn't really changed, because so many of the fundamentals are the same. Lots of tactical changes (drones; better radios; infrared and night vision), but the basics are the same.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The modern method is what the US did to Fallujah. You establish total air superiority, fly around spotting pockets of resistance, bomb them till they stop moving, move in troops to mop up.

The Russian army appears to be trying to do this with tanks instead, which isn't how that works or what tanks are for.
Emphasis mine. I disagree, and admit I've been having this argument since the late 90s. Tanks are fantastic in urban terrain, with infantry. They are large and metal (and thus something to hide behind in the very deadly open streets), they have built in artillery, have good optics, and carry more machineguns than most infantry platoons. Paired up with a squad of infantry, a tank can be a lifesaver. Need a brick wall taken down? Drive over it. Hostile infantry in a nearby building? Suppress it with very accurate machinegun fire. Need a wall breached? Shoot it with the main gun. But they absolutely 100% need close-in infantry support to provide eyes and very fast responsive fire in any direction (it takes tanks a bit of time to slew a gun and acquire a target if it's at all close).

The key is combined arms, something the Soviets mastered in 19-loving-43 and were pretty good at throughout the Cold War. The supposedly very-combined-arms Battalion Tactical Groups don't seem to be doing this very well right now.

Ofaloaf posted:

Are there any good reads on the state of the Ukrainian military? I've been reading plenty of takes linked to from this thread about the Russian military, but I realize I've read nothing about Ukraine's armed forces.
The Modern War Institute (a think tank at the United States Military Academy at West Point) has an excellent podcast, and a recent episode discussed exactly this.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
The Twitter poster mentioning "deep battle" actually doesn't understand deep battle. It has very little to do with the depth of an advancing column: it refers to hitting multiple enemy echelons within a short period of time using a variety of effects. It's actually a combined arms doctrine at the operational level (versus the concept of combined arms in the West, which tends to focus on tactical applications).

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
This guy does a decent job providing basic analysis of military stuff, and has a good analysis of the time tables and practical logistical distances facing Russian forces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKFSK_9e-g4

As stupid as it sounds, this analysis of the Battle of Minas Tirith is also broadly applicable to the current Russian Invasion of Ukraine. Obviously there are differences between wagon-based logistics and modern, vehicle-based logistics, but the fundamentals are remarkably similar.

https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/

Ukraine has done far better than anyone had any right to expect, and has an outside chance of pulling off a victory, but it's going to be very touch and go for a few weeks. The bulk of Ukrainian mechanized forces are at a very high risk of being cut off in the eastern part of the country, and across the Dneiper to boot. Those same forces can't move in large formations for the same reasons the Russian mechanized formations have been having trouble: if they stack up on the roads they'll be destroyed by air power; if they go cross-country they'll be stuck in the mud.

They have a couple options:
  • Dig in, and fight regional fights. Count on the territorial defense forces to win in Kiev.
  • Once the ratputitsa ends, attempt to break out to the west, possibly relieving Kharkiv or Kiev.

Both are risky, and we're likely to see heavy Ukrainian mechanized casualties before this is over. Russian infantry, too, have modern man-portable anti-tank weapons.

Quick edit: the Task & Purpose guy is goofy and campy, but the analysis itself is pretty solid.

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The acoup blog guy is also tweeting
Oh, thanks! This one really hits it on the head.

https://twitter.com/BretDevereaux/status/1498177599553605632

Framboise posted:

I really hate that loving Marco Rubio is one of the more accurate sources of information right now.
The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > (CW: War) Ukraine v Russia: I hate that loving Marco Rubio is an accurate source of info right now

Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?

tractor fanatic posted:

Chechnya is a part of Russia

And I'll bet Belarus has a mutual defense treaty with Russia. Overt, direct kinetic action is a non-starter.

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Ynglaur
Oct 9, 2013

The Malta Conference, anyone?
Don't fool yourself by thinking "Ugh! buttons and knobs and physical switches! How primitive!" There are very good UX reasons to use such physical controls over touch screens.

Most of the Russian kit was not built in the 60's, though older vehicles were designed then. Being built in the 1980s is not out of the question, though. Even so, there's a lot of internals which can be modernized over the years, with little on the outside to indicate change unless you know what to look for.

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