Eastern Europe: Turns out PiS is not stored in the ballots

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Turns out PiS is not stored in the ballots

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cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

This is the place to talk about Eastern Europe - anything debatable or discussable, unless:

You want to talk about Ukraine vs Russia conflict - go here;
You have an important opinion as a US taxpayer that your senator should do something - there's 75 USPol threads in this forum, just go find some. Alternatively, you may also post your grievances here.

To clarify, talking about Russia and Ukraine is fine. What you must not talk about here is the military conflict between the two countries.

Speaking in your local Eastern European is fine, given appropriate conversation.

Foreigners, a significant number of thread regulars are locals from various bits and bobs of Eastern Europe, so if you see Egyptian, please, just ask for translation, instead of expecting it, or otherwise moaning about not speaking Church Slavonic in the year of our lord 2022.

To give you a rough idea of where Eastern Europe is, red is Eastern Europe, green is honorary Eastern Europe, and pink is brother and sister regions.

Previous thread can be found here.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Apr 1, 2023

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 20:08

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 08:01

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

^^ oh for gently caress�s sake, that I must fix

endlessmonotony posted:

Are you SURE Mongolia isn't in Eastern Europe?

Should at least be honorary, given the status of Finland.

Paint budget is not a condom.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 20:32

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Czechia is coming home.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 20:39

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Nenonen posted:

Svalbard is, at least in part, also in Eastern Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arktikugol

The invisible line later turns to the left. :colbert:

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 20:51

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Ataxerxes posted:

Could someone recommend a good book about the Baltics, and the then Russian areas that would later become Poland from the 1800's up to the First World War? History, politics, culture, everything. I have read quite a bit about the Russian Empire and it's actions then but not really about these parts. Weren't the Baltic German nobility still around? How did Estonian, Latvian and Lithuaninan languages fare under the Russian rule?

I�ll skip my literature recommendations, since chances are you don�t read Latvian. Apologies.

Speaking of our language, it was preserved mostly in spoken form until 1850, when serfdom got abolished. That marked renaissance of Latvian language and the beginning of Latvian literature.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 22:13

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Nenonen posted:

You can't prove that it was ever spoken before that! You guys just invented it whole cloth to confuse everyone

We have written records from Baltic-German nobles and clergy, that help assess the state of Latvian language before then. Stuff from 1850 (some hardcore existentialism) is what you get hit with by like the 7th grade literature class.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 23:13

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Mokotow posted:

I always felt Polish was super young, coming into common use around the XVI century, but 1850� drat, that�s recent.

Is there a Latvian national epic?

Yes, Lāčplēsis. Twitter version: Bear kemonomimi born to Russian rapist bear and Latvian mother goes on Eurotrip. It was written in 1870s and 1880s.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 23:40

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Mokotow posted:

Erm, is �the Bear Slayer� a ham fisted analogy? He�s slaying Russians, I mean?

Edit: hm, seems actual bears do get shredded
Edit2: There�s a lot of beef with Christians

Yeah, it doesn't concern itself with Russians at all as written - some people have tried to force bear=Russia connection into the interpretation of it, however. Hence, I called that the "twitter version". In reality, it's a story about serfdom and the Crusades, and the closest the story has ever got to Russia is a specific rock opera interpretation of it.

And "-plēsis" means "tearer", as in tearing a newspaper into two halves. The name stems from him grabbing his dad by the jaws and ripping him apart by pushing them open too far.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 23:56

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Speaking of Latin America, are you folks getting their restaurants in your places? There has been a clear uptick of Argentinian and Brazilian food in steakhouses in Riga.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 00:24

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Is my thread permanently closed?

Most likely :rip:

, although I closed the thread primarily to redirect the flow of posters into appropriate directions.

Russia/Ukraine may take a while to calm down, from posting perspective, at which point it will make sense to create a new merged thread. If Putin sends everyone home tomorrow, no idea.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 01:52

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

That makes sense. If the time comes to merge back let me know and I can make a new one.

I�ll try to remember that. Your OP for the last thread is much better than mine, despite letting everyone in on my bespoke cartography skills.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 01:59

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Verdict is expected tomorrow on whether if funding can be denied over rule of law concerns. It will likely be a positive verdict, since Hungary has joined Poland in working on undermining the authority of CJEU. At the same time, this will potentially also mean another episode of drama in the Council.

The fines though are whatever - for the economy of Poland, �100m fine is not significant fiscally.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 09:10

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Somaen posted:

Well Hungary is building a bunch of them but afaik they're with Rosatom which might not be the optimal solution and will take until the late 2020s.

Good analysis on the insider trying to articulate the negotiating goals by Moscow being achieved in the gopnik mind games style/5D chess: https://theins.ru/opinions/pavel-luzin/248544

That�s an incredibly long way to say �in case we�ve owned ourselves, we�ll try to make the best use of what already is offered, and maybe also do that thing which is entirely in our purview�.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 12:00

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Somaen posted:

Yeah basically, I don't know how to articulate the street thug style of intimidation and dynamic goal shifting familiar to Eastern Europeans but apparently completely novel to others ready to accept Security Concerns as an honest, legitimate demand and not a part of a mind game. Maxim Mironov wrote a funny piece on it before regarding Navalny's poisoning but I'm not sure it translates to english well, but it is absolutely bullseye in describing the negotiation tactic used by the Kremlin all the time and the origins of it

https://mmironov.livejournal.com/58713.html

The original insider article also notes that some uncomfortable topics can be "left in the past" as already accomplished like loss of sovereignty of Belarus which is something to keep in mind. Huilo might not get everything he wants but that doesn't mean he won't try to gently caress up at least someone and this can be just accepted quietly because the West is busy with preventing World War 3 and discussing clancy-scenario

Great article, thanks for sharing. Very lifelike, but borderline untranslatable into English, if you ask me.

The Belarus fixation in the original, that you note, was weird. No one gives a poo poo about the Union Stare, or thinks that Belarus regime can sustain itself without Kremlin�s support.

Somaen posted:

Like right now Navalny is going through a kangaroo trial and about to be sentenced away for a decade but it's under the radar since everyone is too busy reading each twitch of Putin on video trying to guess does that mean he will attack or he won't attack

Navalnyi is more or less gone at this point, I fear.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 14:35

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Random evening trivia, courtesy of our minister of foreign affairs.

https://twitter.com/edgarsrinkevics/status/1493456627890102273

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 22:29

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Oh, I�m definitely not the one to suggest everyone copy our constitution. I just genuinely had no idea that majority of constitutions out there are younger than ours.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 00:23

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-court-greenlights-brussels-power-to-cut-funds-over-rule-of-law-concerns/

CJEU has ruled that EU funding may be cut over rule-of-law concerns, as expected.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 10:05

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

That looks alright, to be frank. I may be biased since I spent my first year working by making myself dinners from random Hortex bags and sausage.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 16:06

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Paladinus posted:

Mexican Mix is superior, imo.

Hortex Italian is nice too.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 18:01

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Mokotow posted:

Kind of surprised you guys know Hortex

Cheapest frozen vegetable brand here. Our largest supermarket chain is Lithuanian, and that way we get a lot of food imported from Poland.

Fun fact, there�s a tiny supermarket chain that styles itself as if for rich people, and they also sell Hortex. For like �2.50/bag.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 18:08

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

That�s way too many ingredients, to represent an average meal here.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 18:12

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I remember there's this one brand of cherry leaf herbal tea I used to buy from a Polish food store in Manchester (along with rye bread, Christ almighty do the English not understand the joys of rye bread so it was impossible to find anywhere else) that is probably my favorite tea ever but I can't remember what it was called.

Funnily enough, a smarmy Southampton Asda is the only supermarket where I�ve ever seen a factory sandwich with rye bread.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 19:22

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Xarn posted:

Oh you have those fuckers too? I still don't get what makes people so broke brained about same sex marriages.

Yeah, like half of our ruling coalition, with addition support in the opposition. It�s completely incoherent xenophobia, which is why the political support is clustered around populist and right-wing parties, which care about bigot vote.

a podcast for cats posted:

a constitutional preamble from 2014 which attempts to codify the weird mismash of beliefs that some folks unironically call dzīvesziņa

I have Opinions �️ about the preamble to our constitution. As far as I�m concerned, it�s an overtly xenophobic attempt to politely define Latvia as a nationalist ethnostate, which amusingly forgets that we�re supposed to be a secular country.

At least I�ll have my bread and circuses when the civil union law project goes to other ministries and the parliament.

Another cool thing out of Latvian law is tikumība. Good loving luck finding a coherent definition (because existence of one is an epistemological impossibility), what is there to say about explaining it to a foreigner (unless there�s idk, the exact same verbiage in Lithuanian constitution or something).

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 20:37

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

a podcast for cats posted:

Thanks for that, that was a succinct way of putting it. I'd inevitably have been more diplomatic myself

I think tikumība is a fairly easy term semantically though. Virtue, in the chastity sense of the word, is a good match. Dzīvesziņa, on the other hand, is a gently caress.

Fact of questionable funniness: Older, like interwar and Soviet translations of detective novels/general fiction would sometimes translate "vice squad" or "vice patrol" to "tikumības policija" which then turns into "chastity police".

I guess you can translate the word, but conveying what it means in legal sense in Latvian law is something entirely else. I've tried researching that out of boredom, and very quickly ended up with a few 100+ page doctoral dissertations focused on the meaning of tikumība.

As for dzīvesziņa, it's just yet another Levits's invention. It's a bit of a pattern with his writing, to come up with plausibly Latvian [compound] words that will give pause even to a majority of native speakers.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 21:37

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

https://twitter.com/Dzelzis1/status/1493865237803675654

a podcast for cats posted:

Ok, I don't have the background to evaluate that. I was considering the semantic meaning only.

Legally, it is "defined" like this (this is written by a Latvian law academic):

So if we then go to article 116 of our constitution:

quote:

Personas tiesības, kas noteiktas Satversmes deviņdesmit sestajā, deviņdesmit septītajā, deviņdesmit astotajā, simtajā, simt otrajā, simt tre�ajā, simt sestajā un simt astotajā pantā, var ierobe�ot likumā paredzētajos gadījumos, lai aizsargātu citu cilvēku tiesības, demokrātisko valsts iekārtu, sabiedrības dro�ību, labklājību un tikumību. Uz �ajā pantā minēto nosacījumu pamata var ierobe�ot arī reliģiskās pārliecības pau�anu.

Or maybe 10.1 of our education law

quote:

(1) Izglītības sistēma nodro�ina izglītojamā tikumisko audzinā�anu, kas atbilst Latvijas Republikas Satversmē ietvertajām un aizsargātajām vērtībām, īpa�i tādām kā laulība un ģimene.

(2) Izglītības iestāde, izņemot augstskolas, aizsargā izglītojamo no tādas informācijas un metodēm izglītības un audzinā�anas procesā, kas neatbilst �ā likuma mērķī ietvertajai izglītojamā tikumiskās attīstības nodro�inā�anai.

We end up with something potentially quite interesting. Though 10.1 is really on the nose already. :thunk:

a podcast for cats posted:

He's a German taught legal scholar, his wordcompoundingwillingnessheit makes sense from that point of view. I'd disagree about the word being his invention though. I'm fairly certain/have foggy memories of it being a common term in the 80s-90s folklore circles. Life wisdom encoded in songs and tradition, the like.

Fair enough, dzīvesziņa is not especially exotic. I was thinking more along the lines of likteņkopība or vienvērtīgs.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 16, 2022

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 22:24

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

a podcast for cats posted:

Yes, that was the intent all along, nobody was attempting to hide it as far as I recall. I've heard, but cannot verify, that the outcomes have been predictable - worse sex ed, more abortions and STIs. But kids were saved from learning about gays.

I agree with you, 10.1 was blatant. I�m just politely venting that our laws every now and then have �you may not live the wrong way� clause, which is a bit counterproductive in the era of hot takes and open borders.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 00:02

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Way to leave me out.

cinci zoo sniper posted:

Gender roles in Eastern Europe are a mixed bag, in my lived experience. For instance, ~98% murders happening in Latvia (so like, 54 out of 55 annual murders) are due to domestic violence, and our right wing parties keep successfully blocking ratification of Istanbul convention. At the same time, if you look at representation of women in business and politics in Latvia - we have some of the highest numbers in Europe, ahead of, e.g., the alleged feminist paradise of Sweden. We have cognitive dissonance going on nationally, basically, where women are trusted to know how to work, but not how to lead a life.

Edit: Ronya made good post on the topic too

ronya posted:

�The Soviets have not really refuted the theory that woman�s place is in the home, but have expanded it into a new theory which holds that women�s place is in the factory as well as in the home." - Bette Stavrakis, 1961

a feature here of Soviet feminist theory is freezing women's liberation in the framework of the 1910s, where the key priority is female education, abolition of traditional polygamy and religious traditions (esp early and underage marriage), and the attainment of civic and family planning rights (to vote, to own personal property, to divorce, etc.). However, where early Soviet theory raised the question of liberating women from domesticity, the envisioned answer was through communal kitchens, which were never a success for the same basic reasons communal households failed also. And then Soviet repression of civil-social organisation froze that conception of feminism in place.

As late as the 1970s Soviet writers (and pro-Soviet Western writers) still emphasized the achievements of populist women's movements in 1860s and 1870s Russia a century ago, or perhaps the Bolshevik proletarian women's movement of the 1910s at latest, but no further than that - naturally eliding the entire postwar feminist movement in the West. It would not be until glasnost that non-party women's movements (rather than party-affiliated women's soviets) would form in large numbers and be prepared to raise domestic questions rather than dourly rally support for the party priorities of the day.

from a theory observer's perspective, at least, a lot of this makes sense from the perspective of a conception of women's priorities that is crystallized in time (noting that the campaign was never finished - Soviet attempts to reform the Soviet *-stans in Central Asia to at least those standards were still ongoing in the Brezhnev to Khrushchev 1980s)

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Feb 17, 2022

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 12:53

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Tias posted:

Are the Crimean people largely pro-Russian?

Not conclusively so, if we talk about pre-annexation time frame. Sevastopol (largest city, ~15% of peninsula�s population) could�ve been described as majority pro-Russian, but peninsula on the whole was just Russian speakers with mixed opinions on their true allegiances. For example, the native population of Crimea, Crimean Tatars, would at times poll at ~30% support for statement �the ideal territorial status for Crimea is an autonomous region of Turkey�.

This is the kind of question where �pro-Russian� needs to be more specific. Majority of peninsula spoke Russian and viewed Russia as a friend, and distrusted NATO/EU/West, but the question of becoming a part of Russia became more nuanced after the 2008 Russia-Georgia war.

Tias posted:

Russia felt "threatened by the Kosovo/Serbia bombings and the later incursions into Afghanistan" and this was a reason they've expanded their armament?

Russia definitely was angered by Serbia, their client state, not doing well in war, but they had a host of their own issues at the time, so I�m not sure anyone in the establishment had reasons or motivation to feel threatened per se. I�m not sure I understand the Afghanistan parallel your article attempts to draw.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 13:55

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Cool, cool. Osipova lost her Supreme Court nomination due to "culture war" hand wringing. Valainis can go gently caress himself.

https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/latvija/bijuso-satversmes-tiesas-priekssedetaju-osipovu-neievele-par-augstakas-tiesas-tiesnesi.a443985/

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 14:43

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

It�s really windy here as well (I�m like 400 km north of Poland). Not that windy, however.

Edit:

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/02/16/bank-of-russia-proceeds-with-digital-ruble-renews-push-for-crypto-ban/

Looks like crypto crackdown is back on the menu for Bank of Russia.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Feb 17, 2022

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 16:27

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

It's bad, there's no other way to put it. In broad strokes, if you're not a cishet - expect violence from "fellow" citizens.

As a tourist, you should be fine in pretty much any capital, but you could still be subjected to violence even for things as trivial as holding the hand of your spouse in public.

And yeah, it does start at the top. Weirdly enough, the people propagating the hate often have quite the closets.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 21:40

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Torrannor posted:

Like an important ally of Orban getting busted for violating Brussel's anti-Covid measures when the police caught him at an underground gay orgy.

To be more precise, a co-founder of Orban�s party was caught in a drug-fuelled orgy of 25 dudes, and tried to flee the police through a window. He voted along the party lines on all major occasions of sexual minority rights being restricted, if I recall correctly.

Soviet Communist party officials were also fond of particularly, khem, steamy sauna sessions in all-male company. Unfortunately, sometimes in a significantly more disturbing company as well. Albeit in a diminished form, the �tradition� was continued in Russian Federation as well.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2022 22:11

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

GyverMac posted:

Welp. Putin just signed "friendship and cooperation aggreements" with both the breakway regions in Ukraine. Basically he just made them into pieces of Russia. This is not good.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60454795

We gave a containment thread for that, please follow directions in the OP.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2022 21:09

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Here�s an article about Baltics on this subject, that I like. It�s in English.

https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1406217/neoliberal-zeal-spelled-two-decades-of-absolute-tragedy-for-baltic-development-interview

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 11:39

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

At this rate, I�ll be surprised if there�s any Russian language TV on air in the Baltics by 2023.

Edit: https://www.lsm.lv/raksts/zinas/arz...laciju.a444790/

Already, drat

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Feb 22, 2022

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 20:16

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Zudgemud posted:

Why not? Would it not be better if the Russian speaking population was watching locally produced media and news instead of Russian crap? Like, producing good relevant media in Russian seems like a really good way to prevent your population from getting brainwashed by Russian propaganda and disinformation.

I support shutting down Russian propaganda broadcasts here, and the edit was to express surprise at how quickly things are moving that way.

That said, I think this will be a non-measure in Latvia specifically, since our political apparatus will never subsidize media in Russian, and so there won't be any replacement content. People who relied on landline TV will just get Russian satellites, or watch their poo poo online, escaping the national media environment completely.

Which does frustrate me immensely, since the majority of my social circles here are Russian speakers, and I do agree that providing them with alternative information channels would've been a solid way to combat Kremlin's influence.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 21:21

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

OddObserver posted:

I wonder how will they could compete given the likely difference in production values, though. Not that they should not try.

They would definitely not be able to compete in entertainment television, but that's not what I'm thinking about. Currently, we have no popular Russian language TV channels with news broadcasts that are not under subject to Kremlin's influence, and just a single decent news website in Russian (which sees way less work put into it than its Latvian page).

We used to have national TV retranslated in Russian, but it was this 90s-style crap network that wasn't even watched any much in Latvian.

In general, our TV landscape is like this:

I'm sure you'll recognize quite a few of those. I don't know what's under "other" there, and they don't seem to explain it either. LTV1 is the state owned public broadcast service.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2022 21:51

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Xarn posted:

Can we make bad posts now?

We tolerated your posts before as well. :smug:

# ¿ Feb 23, 2022 13:28

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Randarkman posted:

Wasn't that kind of how Red Army day worked in the Soviet Union? As basically a men's day counterpart of women's day.

It�s was indeed, the folklore reasoning being that army makes a man.

I�m posting this literally a minute after congratulating my grandfather with it. :v:

# ¿ Feb 23, 2022 16:17

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 08:01

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

mobby_6kl posted:

Yep, that was me. I just didn't go, mostly to avoid beign stuck if return flights got canceled. Wizzair didn't cancel anything up to that point (unlike some other airlines) but you never know. Ground transport would be still available, I'm sure (unless nukes started flying) but it's just not worth the possible complications. I was hoping it would just blow over soon.

Edited: Official closure of civil airspace.
https://twitter.com/EEMthethird/status/1496667112097603593

It looks like it was the correct call. Unfortunately, for many reasons.

mobby_6kl posted:

Lol same

Nice. My grandpa literally celebrates only Feb 23, May 9, and my mom's (his daughter's) birthday.

cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Feb 24, 2022

# ¿ Feb 24, 2022 03:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Turns out PiS is not stored in the ballots

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