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Buffy owns, Angel owns more. I'm slowly watching through the shows with a friend who's never seen them, and they're just great TV.
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Mar 12, 2022 05:49
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Friend watched Doublemeat Palace for the first time. Episode has a poor reputation among the community, but he loved it and personally it's a fave. Very funny, and really great guest performances from the guest stars, particularly the drones. He's not a fan of Willow addiction plot, mostly because he -- correctly IMO -- sees the arc as initially about Willow using magic to manipulate and gaslight her girlfriend, while also giving over to the powertripping narcissism that was always lurking in her personality. (The show's characters are so well formed.) The addiction plot, he says, is a shift away from confronting the reality of the plot, and he speculated that perhaps the arc was pushed away from its original course. Honestly that seems like a fairly sensible read to me. He thought the season was going to position Willow as the big bad -- I know that's how she ends up, but like i said before he doesn't -- but now he's just expecting it to be a combination of the boys and Amy. Fun idea tbh. Oasx posted:I'm not a big fan of Angel season 2-3-4, but season 5 only works if you know and like the characters and have seen their struggles, so I would recommend anyone who likes Buffy to check out Angel. Yeah, nice. Season 4 in particular is very much a forefront on how serialised television developed over the next decade. Very epic in scope, a lot of narrative, big twists and enormous stakes. Very compelling television -- depending on how you feel about the twist.
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Mar 12, 2022 14:58
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roomtone posted:Willow's addiction plot is a good counter-example to the bungled metaphor idea brought up earlier. Where Angel going bad didn't line up with the bad boyfriend, they didn't try to force it to. It was still a basically absurd supernatural story with an emotionally relateable basis. With the Willow stuff in season 6, they go far too hard in making in a 1:1 'she's a junkie!' story. Willow even describes herself as an actual junkie. Yeah, and it's something the show eventually backs off from too -- It's only consistently presented that way mid season 6, from Smashed onwards. Before then, Willow's struggles with magic are defined through the lenses of power and abuse, which is why I suspect that wasn't the original intention for the arc at all.
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Mar 13, 2022 06:32
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FilthyImp posted:Xander was definitely written from a perspective of "Aww but he's so nice! why do girls always make such bad choices!" I don't think so tbh. I'm in the middle of the Anya/Xander divorce arc, and the show's made multiple decent points about why their relationship is a bit toxic -- largely because Xander's judgemental and controlling. Sure, he doesn't get dragged through the mud as much as Willow or Spike, but he's also fundamentally not as bad as either of them.
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Mar 14, 2022 15:01
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sad question posted:There's a difference between writing a flawed character and inadvertently revealing something about yourself through writing. Xander, especially in the beginning, is giving off massive 'nice guy' alarm bells. But, like, that's who he is, and the show knows it. I literally just watched the episode where Halfrek turns up and diagnoses the problem in about five minutes.
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Mar 14, 2022 15:12
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NikkolasKing posted:I think of Spike more as an antihero than a villain. Pan Dulce posted:Yeah, I see him as an antihero too. I dunno, I've just watched Dead Things with a friend, and even if I didn't know how this season ended for Spike he's way over the line in this one. Isolating his girlfriend from her friends, encouraging her to engage in destructive behaviour, attempting to make her dependent on her through ~*shared trauma*~ (actually emotional blackmail). Spike 1.0 is very much a villain. 2.0 is pretty much a straight up hero, but he's basically a completely different character, like Angelus / Angel.
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Mar 16, 2022 13:58
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Pan Dulce posted:A straight-up hero doesn't have the difficulties being a hero that Spike does, namely the trigger from the First causing some deaths AND Robin's almost death in that cross-filled cabin. A Straight-up hero also does things for unselfish motivations. Spike's never been good to be good. His last season he's still good just for Buffy. I'd argue on Angel he's good to be good. You're saying that being mind controlled makes you a bad person? He's selflessly helping people as early as the third episode of season seven, he's a hero.
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Mar 16, 2022 15:12
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I've always read Spike as being motivated by self-preservation and the opportunity to engage in something he loves (violence) without the consequences that typically come with how he goes about that. It's been interesting to read other people's opinions. Though yeah, I do think he's often a villain, I don't think he's evil in any absolute moral term. I just think he genuinely enjoys killing and eating people, and would probably be doing it all the time in seasons 4/5/6 if he were able. He certainly pushes the envelope far enough in other ways -- weapons dealing, sexual assault, domestic violence, and the kittens thing is a comedic form of what's essentially animal abuse. He's certainly responsible for a lot of horrible poo poo.
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Mar 16, 2022 17:23
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Isn't it not just Celine Dion, but the same one Celine Dion song on a loop at full blast?
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Mar 16, 2022 18:04
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Oz did nothing for me. Green had some screen chemistry with Hannigan, but they were overshadowed by Xander/Cordy. And then Oz remains an incredibly passive character for most of his time on the show -- it's a shame that Green decided to leave the show just as his character was getting interesting. NikkolasKing posted:Something I'm trying to pinpoint is when exactly vampires become a joke on Buffy. I'm on Episode 6 of Season 2 and Buffy herself is still struggling with rando vamps. But I recall later on people like Xander will be staking them. If I had to hazard a guess, probably Season 3 or 4 as by then vamps are old news as main villains. It's definitely the case by Season 4 -- there are a bunch of opening gags about how little characters are bothered by the vampires, and a lot of the season premier involves subverting and then reinstating this image of vampires as pathetic and unimposing. I'd say it probably happens some time in the third season, when vampires are randomly turning up as unimportant henchpeople.
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Mar 17, 2022 03:55
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FWIW, it just sounds like it's easier for you to separate the art from the artist than some other goons. I don't think there's a moral right or wrong to that. I also find it pretty easy to separate the two, particularly since, you know, there's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism. If I was to only watch ethically produced, fair trade media I'd have to throw out pretty much everything produced under the Hollywood system. It's not like I'm financially supporting anyone involved in making this show by watching my second hand DVD copies either. So, yeah, I acknowledge that the production was hosed up and I move on. I don't see much point in me, personally, ruminating over the issue.
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Mar 17, 2022 17:21
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Sidebar: Illyria's essentially genderqueer, or something similar, yeah?
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Mar 17, 2022 17:38
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Heavy_D posted:S5 had the same basic production problem and I prefer what they did there. Both seasons could only afford two big budget finale episodes, but S5 sandwiches bottle episode The Weight Of The World between the action heavy Spiral and The Gift. Spiral even comes right off the back of the previous episode cliffhanger. You get a longer run of episodes building directly to the climax, even if one is a quiet event. Go Fish is probably one of the more expensive episodes that season, given the complex set builds and the prosthetics involved. I don't think your comparison with Weight of the World really tracks.
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Mar 19, 2022 10:59
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Heavy_D posted:Yeah, you're probably right. Shouldn't go assuming that outside the season arc automatically means cheaper filler! I guess the other thing is that by S5 the show is a lot more serialised - the few "standalone" episodes are all in the front half. Yeah, it's interesting to watch Buffy essentially invent a model of serialisation that a lot of other shows copied. I think the show struck a really good balance between episodes that enforced a status quo and ones that were serialised, and basically "solved" how to handle a 22 episode season on a structural level. I reckon a lot of other shows, like Farscape, SHIELD, Person Of Interest, Gotham, etc. took a lot from it in terms of pacing and breaking stories too. It's the kind of thing I find pretty interesting tbh.
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Mar 19, 2022 13:11
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NikkolasKing posted:I remember reading when I re-watched The X-Files that it was the show which really changed how TV shows were plotted? The X-files has a starker divide between episodes that perpetuate the arc and those that don't -- that the serialisation is persistent is important, but not unique to serialised television at the time. Xena, Hercules, Deep Space Nine, Twin Peaks, etc. were all experimenting with serialisation, and tend to have a similar interest in persistent continuity that The X-Files did, but really only in select episodes (or sprints of episodes). Buffy kicked things into a higher gear, by doing things like applying a three-act structure to the 22 episode season and then using every episode to explore that arc. Season 2 of Buffy makes a very clear case for this with its trio of villains, each of whom are top dog for their respective act before being superseded by a more powerful member of their coterie at the advent of the next act -- but it's there in pretty much every season. There were other experiments with serialisation at the time, like Lexx, but they didn't tend to have the same fascination with structure that Buffy has. (And I'm exclusively talking about the way that American genre television cracked the 22 episode structure; anime, for instance, did a lot with pre-planned hyper-serialised four-act structures waaaay earlier, with stuff like Evangelion).
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Mar 19, 2022 23:05
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NikkolasKing posted:Wasn't Wood with Faith? He dated Buffy for a bit. Buffy also dated Parker, and her ex turns up in Lie To Me.
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Mar 20, 2022 11:56
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Man, last time I watched The Zeppo I remember most of the supporting cast coming across as huge dickheads. It's something I noticed a lot with Season 3. Yeah, they're seeding stuff like Willow's narcissism in Dead Man's Party, or just generally weakening the group's bonds to support the season 4 plot, but I remember it having the side effect of a lot of that season being kinda unenjoyable. Argue posted:There was also an awful episode of Doctor Who (I know the crack you're about to make, please don't) which the showrunner explicitly said was heavily influenced by The Zeppo. You mean Love and Monsters? That episode loving rules. But the idea of this kind of ep predates Buffy; Never Again from The X-Files, for instance. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 11:16 on Mar 21, 2022 |
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Mar 21, 2022 11:13
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NikkolasKing posted:I was trying to think "did X-Files do something like this?" and I came up with nothing. Now you mention it I do kind of remember that episode but it didn't really stick out t o me. I'll take your word for it, though. Yeah, there were a few other stories from this period that did similar thing, recognising the perspective of characters who'd been marginalised by the narrative -- there's an issue of Grant Morrison's The Invisibles that flashes back to tell the story of a random guard that was merked several issues prior, for instance. And, though I've never seen it, there's Lower Decks from Star Trek which apparently also focuses on the perspectives of some otherwise "irrelevant" characters. NikkolasKing posted:As for the supporting cast being kinda dicks this season....I dunno. Willow rushed to being jealous of Faith, a fact commented upon by the writer of Bad Girls, but I never really thought of it as narcissism. I take it you think her characterization in S6 isn't so out of left field, then? That was always my biggest beef with the season, it ruined my favorite relationship (Willow/Tara) for no reason. But maybe I missed clues. Even now I'm not the most perceptive watcher and I certainly wasn't back in 2001 or whatever. Yeah, I think Willow's Season 6 behaviour honestly makes a lot of sense, and is fairly typical of kids who excel at an early age while also being bullied for it -- combined with the privilege that her powers grant her, you can see where the character from Bargaining through to Tabula Rasa comes from. The drug thing is, like, whatever, but it also comes out of nowhere midseason so I've always been a little suspect of how much was originally intended. I think it's more interesting to read the character's flaws through the lens of a superiority complex. The first thing that really stuck out to me, though, was Dead Man's Party, where she's so cruelly passive aggressive to Buffy, and has that whole thing where she puts her pain (which sucks) above Buffy's (which, let's be honest, her situation is so much worse there's no real competition here). Understandable behaviour, but hosed up all the same. And then you've got stories like Dopplegangland, which confronts Willow with the kind of person she could end up being if she overcorrected on her self-improvement arc, which she inevitably does. With this reading, you could argue that the "bored now" stuff in Season 6 not so much as a cute callback so much as a pay-off to earlier material. I know there are other examples, but I can't recall any off the top of my head.
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Mar 21, 2022 12:51
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TBH I suspect a lot of Riley's arc was derailed by the loss of Lindsay Crouse.
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Mar 22, 2022 07:53
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NikkolasKing posted:Was she supposed to be around longer? Did Buffy S4 undergo serious retcons, too? She was meant to be the season's main villain, but Crouse exited her contract mid-season forcing significant rewrites. I read somewhere -- and this may be apocryphal -- that Ben's eventual death at Giles' hands was adapted from their original plans for Walsh. Certainly Walsh and Giles were meant to come into more significant conflict as the season drew on, drawing everyone else into the drama.
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Mar 22, 2022 08:02
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If you start from the position of Riley being a member of the gang, then yeah, he's a failure. But I don't think Riley was meant to integrate. In Season 4 he's the cool older boyfriend who's already settled, already has a group of friends, and is functionally stable. vs Buffy and co. who are floundering and falling apart. The Initiative is kinda a seductive threat, because they seem to have to all together, they're modern, they seem to respect and elevate women (in a way the Watcher's Council never did). Walsh, too, represents a new kind of paradigm for Buffy, and she's obviously excited to learn whatever she can from this lady. But the show has to rush the entire back third of the arc out in two episodes (Goodbye Iowa and The I In Team), and the thesis for Riley, Walsh and the Iniative kinda gets lost. And by the time Season 5 rolls around they've decided to write the character out, so they've no interest in having the character integrate then either.
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Mar 23, 2022 01:57
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:That's the fundamental problem with Riley, though, just like it was the fundamental problem with Tara until the writers finally started giving her a personality; you can't just add a love interest into an existing ensemble cast and expect it to work wholly as an appendage to a pre-existing character. You have to invent a stand-alone character that brings its own interesting dynamic to the mix and, if that works, make them a love interest. I dunno, I feel like we're talking at cross purpose here: you're arguing that the character is a failure to be a legitimate love interest because love interests are supposed to be x, y, z, while I'm arguing that he was never really meant to be a traditional love interest so much as a foil, and that failed because of actor availability issues in the character's supporting cast.
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Mar 23, 2022 04:17
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surf rock posted:I somehow completely missed Buffy while it was airing. I first encountered it in 2007 or 2008; the town library had all of the seasons on DVD so I checked them out from there and just devoured it over the course of a summer. I know the cultural tide has turned hard against Buffy but I just fuckin' loved it then and I still think of it very fondly now. It has some of my favorite moments and episodes of television ever. Stop being me, that's plagiarism.
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Mar 25, 2022 02:46
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The storyline where Willow goes sour is so good early in Season 6, and when it takes an abrupt turn into magic anonymous it's so tedious. It saves itself at the end though. It's a formula that's been copied a few times over the years -- Legends of Tomorrow did a very similar version in Season 6. Gotta respect this show for going there properly though. Watching Older and Farther Away with a friend. He pointed out that Willow and Tara dress like Guinevere. Love that it's a Dawn episode that plays out like a highschool throwback episode, with Dawn's little subplot at the school. It's basically a replay of The Wish, except with different magical mischief. I never thought about it before, but the show plays more into this as the series went on, with Dawn's subplots in Season 7. I forgot that Buffy invites what's basically a literal highschioler to her birthday party. She feels like a late twenty something somehow, by comparison. So much of Season 6, particularly this mid season, is really capturing a different sort of, older twenties energy and anxiety -- Buffy becoming a surrogate mother, Anya and Xander's wedding, etc. They're making Tara very likeable right now, at the expense of sending Willow far into the background. This has a side effect of emphasising how distant Buffy and Willow have become. That relationship feels very damaged right now, and I can't really remember it recovering. They make peace in season 7, but I think the love fizzles out.
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Mar 25, 2022 15:53
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Nah, I reckon he loved her. It's an ambiguity that they play for a bit, but it's there in the grief at the end of Season 3. It's a brilliant performance, you can see why they were so keen to bring him back a few times. Adam didn't get that treatment. I wish Glory had though, I think they could have done something good with her and Dawn in Season 7.
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Mar 27, 2022 13:19
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It's neglible speed up to make episodes fit a different ad space run time without cutting any scenes. It doesn't really affect anything. Previouslies rock, watch the previouslies cut.
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Mar 28, 2022 15:59
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Yeah, after they revert her back to independence away from the group, after The Wish, she's no longer mean to them. She's no longer interested in them at all, and the show is equally uninterested in her. She gets some decent gags here and there, she turns up like a mean 80's villain in The Zeppo, and she gets that subplot in The Prom, but the show's done with her. I was so glad she got a chance to flourish further on Angel. I'm just about to get to the point where effectively gets replaced, Birthday, and the balls of that arc -- to slowly erase the character as a form of possession masquerading as character development, is very very clever. Very mean though too.
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Mar 29, 2022 16:32
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roomtone posted:full angel spoilers here FWIW The arc was planned prior to Carpenter falling pregnant -- from what I understand, one of Whedon's problems with Carpenter was that her pregnancy had effectively derailed his season arc where she'd step in as a big villain figure in Season 4. From what I understand, the arc was mostly preserved by creating the Jasmine character and shifting the lead villain performance over to Gina Torres. You can definitely see the elder god stuff start appearing towards the end of Season 3 as well -- there's the big spooky bit where Cordelia magically overrides Connor's personality with a blast of peaceful goodnik peace and love energy, followed by her calling him "baby" and generally beginning the Odeipal arc that they'd play way harder in Season 4. So it was, IMO, planned. And then those plans changed, but that's typical of any kind of planning.
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Mar 30, 2022 02:13
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I think there are a few other moments where the show objectifies Buffy's body -- the Faith/Buffy dance in Season 3, the seduction sequence in 'When She Was Bad'. But yeah, generally the show was less about that kind of thing that, say, Alias. Does she ever have a "thoughtful shower" even? I'm always so surprised when a bathroom turns up on Buffy -- they tend to only turn up in horror sequences or dreams, for some reason -- so I suspect she probably doesn't. Watched three episodes of Buffy this week -- As You Were, Hell's Bells and Normal Again. It's pretty much the end to the sixth season's second act, defined largely by Buffy's depression and her job at the Doublemeat Palace, and an almost complete lack of the nerds. There's also the subplots about Willow/Tara getting back together and Xander/Anya falling apart. Most of the episodes are, basically, super loving depressing -- every time the show could play something for a win, it just sorta makes everyone feel worse instead. The Buffy/Riley episode is a case in point: she's miserable working at the Palace, he turns up (excellent loving joke, btw), and then she starts fantasizing about leaving her entire life behind and running off with him. Then his wife turns up, which stomps on that dream, and then to make matters worse Riley's wife is super friendly, even keeled and understanding, which means that Buffy spends the rest of the story feeling guilty and angry with herself. There's no "win" for the character, IMO, she never gets a moment of triumph or any kind of catharsis. Instead she gets shamed for her taste in men, and goes back to her job at the Doublemeat. Hell's Bells is equally depressing; the comedy is mostly just sorta miserable -- though I really like the understated joke that Halfrek looks genuinely good in Anya's terrible bridesmaids outfits. Anya's turn at the end of the episode prompted by friend to get excited for Anya's "villain arc". He's absolutely certain that one of the regulars is going to turn into the season's main villain -- he's not been taken in at all by the red herring with the nerds. Normal Again works really well though -- I think you can tell that Whedon ghost wrote a lot of the scenes where Buffy goes horror monster on the main characters. TBH, it's actually a rare case of an episode where the direction lets the writing down. I think a more modern take on the episode would use more match cuts when jumping between the versions of the fight in the basement, for instance. I also think the episode could have been waaaay scarier in the scenes where Buffy attacks Xander, and then Dawn. Good stuff though, and a really worthwhile catharsis from an episode, after pretty much every episode since Doublemeat Palace actively denying the audience much satisfaction.
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Apr 4, 2022 08:41
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Mr. Humalong posted:Cool stuff Yeah, I've been doing the same. It's really cool watching the shows with new eyes, and with the distance from the original show. I think Willow's villain turn is also heavily foreshadowed, even without the banner spoiling the show. It's interesting how the newbies I've seen the show with have picked up on it.
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Apr 12, 2022 10:34
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Woah what is this Fred slander. Fred owns. Except for KARRUMPTION. That poo poo can die in a fire. But Lorne also did that so it's not a Fred exclusive problem.
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Apr 12, 2022 16:35
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Ben is by far the worst of all of Buffy's love interests.
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Apr 22, 2022 16:09
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Man, I dunno, Spike spends a huge amount of Season 6 being depicted as a hugely toxic piece of poo poo. He's a liar, he's controlling, he undermines Buffy's interests. I don't doubt that he loves her, and he thinks he can support her, but his love is a possessive toxic love. Dead Things, Smashed, Older and Further Away, As You Were... his behaviour is a consistent thread throughout the season. Seeing Red doesn't come out of nowhere. That people like this are lovable, and audiences can forgive this behaviour -- I get it, but in the end the signs were there.
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Apr 23, 2022 07:43
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NikkolasKing posted:Personally I think the signs were all there where I'm at in Season 5. His treatment of Harmony? Yeah, absolutely.
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Apr 23, 2022 08:04
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roomtone posted:in s5 he's still trying to get the chip out, then kidnapping a bunch of women to make them love him, but he develops after that. after Crush (5x14) to once more with feeling, he's almost entirely heroic and decent, if you can forgive the robot thing. then from smashed to dead things they go toxic with him for a bit, but it's still evened out by self-awareness and at least attempting to respect boundaries. buffy dumps him and he's nice again for a while. his crimes and bad behaviour are getting less and less severe, his good side coming out more frequently. it's a bumpy road but it feels worth following. then, rapist. Even after Dead Things, you've got Spike being a WMD trader in As You Were, and his attempts to split Buffy off from the group so he can continue to isolate her in Older And Far Away, low key attempts to get Buffy jealous in Hell's Bells... Because, you know, it's a plot about dating a dude who's super charming and sometimes really great, but sometimes also a total piece of poo poo -- and it's about how even though he can be super nice sometimes it doesn't really stop the fact that he's a bad guy with a long, long history of treating women really really badly. Making an audience like the character and want to believe that he can change is part of that seduction; it puts you in Buffy's shoes. But it still speaks to, IMO, a fundamental truth about life: don't date chronic abusers, and don't trust people whose change is predicated on maintaining your love -- that's a deeply conditional love. They're essentially saying that they'll be a good person because you love them, as long as you love them.
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Apr 25, 2022 07:27
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Mr. Humalong posted:My watch party is making their way through S7/S4 and I am cackling every episode we draw closer to Jasmine. Yeah, part of the reason he got mad is the baby "derailed" his villain arc. It was at least planned since before Season 4 IMO. I've always argued that there are very explicit hints as early as the last few episodes of Season 3.
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May 12, 2022 23:31
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I can't say it's ever bothered me tbh, but the age of consent where I am is 16. It's genuinely really weird to me that US states don't standardise issues of consent -- though not remotely surprising. Australia used to have an older age of consent for homosexual (male) sex than it did straight sex... the issue's always had a touch of the absurd to it. And before someone decides to get puritanical and reactionary, this isn't me arguing that the age of consent should be lowered. That's hosed up. Just saying that the law can be remarkably arbitrary, and in some very obvious cases deeply biased. Which is nothing compared to the US military age of consent laws, which are rigorously hosed up.
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Jun 10, 2022 17:31
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Yeah. I got the intention in the first few episodes was to suggest that she was just out of highschool and struggling to stay above water in a big city, but the character always read completely differently -- like it'd been at least five years since highschool, and she'd been stuck in a rut doing humiliating part-time work. She feels a lot more beaten down right from the start, like she's normalised surviving in the big city. There's not a lot of naivety there. By the time you get to late Season 3 she's completely transitioned into an hippie earth mother (which I'll always argue was Jasmine's influence) and she's suddenly calling people "honey" and "baby" and it feels like she's just zoomed into her late thirties. Honestly, Carpenter does a decent job differentiating the two different versions of the character early on in Season 4. I think her acting isn't the greatest midseason, particularly during Orpheus -- though the more I've heard about it, I can see why she'd be checked out -- but I really like what she does for a lot of the show.
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Jun 16, 2022 03:28
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A recent (in the last six months) horror videogame did a SHOCK TWIST werewolf reveal, though the game is so goofy that when the infected humans transform their skin and clothes violently explode off their bodies and evaporate into pink mist. Pretty much the only time I've enjoyed werewolves in anything ngl, but I've not seen Dog Soldiers. Being Human (UK) did a good job with their human sides and using werewolves as metaphors to talk about themes and dramatic stakes, but once the wolf comes out to play I just tend to tune out. Game is The Quarry.
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Jun 27, 2022 17:40
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Just watched Dad. It's not a great episode -- honestly, both of Goodman's episodes are pretty arse -- but Files and Records is probably my favourite one-off guest star in either show. The actress just comes on and completely nails it in just two scenes, and she's clearly thought a lot about making the character feel specific and finding interesting shades to the various line readings. Plus the part is awesome and weird, and allows her to completely change her body language when she turns into a human internet. Just excellent.Pan Dulce posted:I just found out Oz was supposed to be killed by Angelus, but the character had too much potential, so they killed off Jenny instead. WOAH! Huh, I've never heard this before. Fascinating. The easiest way the plot, roughly, stays the same shape is that Jenny sends Angel's soul back to him, while Willow ends up taking over Faith's arc from Season 3. (They'd been wanting to pull the trigger on Dark Willow for a very long time IIRC).
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Jul 27, 2022 14:39
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