Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

side_burned posted:

One is a literal sexual Predator who grooms teenage boys. Belive it or not I did not get the subtext of that episode in 1997.

Y'know how you form an impression of something when you're young and don't reexamine it until somebody just states a facts all in a row like you've just done?

Yeah.

Also, it probably means something that all of Whedon's self-insert's girlfriends were monsters.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2023 17:44

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 17:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Open Source Idiom posted:

I don't think that description is particularly useful when describing Xander's relationship with Cordelia or Anya tbh -- though I got that sense that in the context of the original post Cordelia's inclusion was a joke.

It also skips Willow.

Cordy is also literally part demon when all is said and done.

Also, Willow was never his girlfriend. She was the gal with whom he cheated. Which actually fits perfectly into the reading I was giving this.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2023 21:59

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

He really did help pioneer the now-overused "here's exactly what you've been conditioned to expect, oh wait" rugpull. Or at least the flavor of it we're now so used to.

Gods. I wrote papers on Whedon in college. He was my hero. His voice is still in everything I write even when I actively work against it.

Why can't men just not be loving awful?

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 01:00

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Dawn's only problem was being a fifteen-year-old actress stuffed into a twelve-year-old character written like a nine-year-old character.

She was the bratty younger sister who was a play on TV's tendency to introduce a new, cute young character on sitcoms and such in its later seasons.

And for my money, Willow the most well-rounded character of the main three and it's not close.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 01:37

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

roomtone posted:

Willow's fine in the early seasons, but she was never my favourite or anything. She is similar to Fred in some ways in that I think she's a nerd bait character where you get some guys who just absolutely love her and wish they had a girlfriend like her, and a lot of the girls who watched identified more with her, etc.

I was both. Then they made her canonically gay and that made me adore her all the more.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 01:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

"I think I'm kinda' gay."

They were so close. It was right there.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 02:13

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

My entire point is that Joss Whedon is demonstrably lovely about women and wrote his self-insert character to keep falling for literal monster women, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 05:49

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Open Source Idiom posted:

That most people on the show experienced many similar relationships and that Xander probably sticks out by dint of two whole relationships being basically quotidian (by the show's standards). I think only Giles had more luck in that department, for a given definition of "luck".

It's... it isn't subtext, though. It's text. Like, he complains about it. The show acknowledges that it's a thing. I didn't pull this out of my rear end.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2023 19:29

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Dawgstar posted:

Yeah. It's easy to see a lot of Whedon's inspiration.

When I finally watched some Cowboy Bebop I was gobsmacked at how he didn't even bother filing off all the serial numbers.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2023 20:00

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Jesus.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2023 20:19

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

It was a drat good scene.

The First was a great idea, but it needing to spend the entire season not doing poo poo hamstrung it. And needing to spend like twelve episodes mostly in Buffy's house with her giving speeches instead of doing poo poo herself was also a poo poo way to save your budget for the finale. They should've done rather a lot more monster-of-the-weeks and focused less on The First to dramatically diminishing returns.

But I still quite like the season.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2023 03:51

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Macdeo Lurjtux posted:

waifu,

Okay, so I'm gonna' use your post as an example here, but I'm not calling you out.

This term sucks and is racist. I've used it. A lot of us have used it. But I really don't think we should be, and need to find a new way to say this that paints the same picture and is just as punchy, but damned if one is coming to mind.

And yeah, it is painfully obvious that a lot of comics writers had a big ol' crush on Kitty Pryde when they were young.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2023 20:17

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Oasx posted:

I don't use the term because it's a meme, but can you explain what makes it racist?

"Waifu" is an imitation of a Japanese accent, and that's basically enough, but it's also a mockery of sad, lonely Japenese men that's become a meme to the point that it's stripped of context to many.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2023 22:55

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Glad there wasn't a pages-long argument about it. Thank you all for that.

So what do we replace it with that immediately evokes a sad, lonely man falling in love with a fictitious character because he thinks he's super nice but is a giant dick and nobody can stand to be around his toxicity?

The term evolved into that and it'd be a shame to throw out the baby with the racist bathwater.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2023 00:39

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I still say we can come up with something better that doesn't have that smell to it. It's a phenomenon worthy of scorn.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2023 02:42

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

gently caress. Yes. That's genius.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2023 23:47

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

DrBouvenstein posted:

It's kind of silly how much Angel and company go on and on about the Shansu Prophecy, and how of angel does all these good deeds it gets to be a real boy again...when he already was in "I Will Remember You," and decided that he was not able to live as a human again because he couldn't be a liability to the ones he loves.

But even if he decides he does want to be human again...why are you bothering with a stupid prophecy? Just go find another one of those green demons with the red gemstone in their head.

Makes sense. Personally, I never tripped on that, because the prophecy seemed to be that if he ever did become human, it would mean his fight was over. That he'd won. But also, he signed it away in the end. It existed to motivate him, then existed to prove that he was a hero through and through.
Also,

sebmojo posted:

The cosmology of angel is just one bonkers asspull after another

# ¿ Jul 9, 2023 21:58

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

G-Spot Run posted:

Everything worked out well at graduation with the army of kids, why don't they just loop in the whole town at monthly neighbourhood watch meetings on the latest demonology developments? All this secrecy is unnecessary and only benefits the bad guys!

Mostly because the entire show was a metaphor about parents not understanding their kids' problems and neglecting them, so they all ignored everything that was going on.

Which doesn't really hold up in-universe, but the alternative is spending a bunch of time explaining it, almost certainly introducing more problems and writing obstacles when most people wouldn't notice to begin with.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2023 00:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Season 3 gets all the love, but for my money, Season 2 is god tier.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2023 01:03

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Pinterest Mom posted:

It made no sense!! We, onscreen, didn't see him touch anything, but what, he stood around for several weeks ominously hovering and nobody noticed anything?? He never ate or used the bathroom or

They did notice. It's why they confronted him about it.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2023 00:04

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Pan Dulce posted:

Also, I think the writers were confused about what to do with Spike. He's evil, constantly says he's evil too. Tara's completely right when talking about Quasimodo in lieu of Spike, saying it doesn't matter what good he does if he's doing it for self-absorbed intentions (plus being bumpy = never having a happy ending).

But then he gives flowers without Buffy knowing they're from him for Joyce's death. Then he guards the Hellmouth with the Scoobies when Buffy dies and saves Giles. Then he protects Dawn, both on the tower and after Buffy dies, simply because of the promise.

They never come right out and say it, save one line from The Judge, but Spike is different. He got to keep his love when he was turned. Everything else comes from that. But love without a soul can make you do some really hosed up poo poo.

I mean, love with a soul can too, but this is a show for teenage girls and like every supernatural element of it, vampires are metaphors.

# ¿ Jul 31, 2023 02:42

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

It's not really canon to the series anyway.

For the first season or two, they played it as if the show could be a sequel to the movie, with Buffy having transferred from a school she burned down, but they flash back to her getting her first watcher and it happens completely differently.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2023 03:23

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Gross.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2023 22:28

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Pan Dulce posted:

What's GOOD is that he chooses to change, chooses to get his soul back by fighting for it fair and square instead of getting a curse, and even when he does have a soul, not asking to get back together and BARELY even asking for forgiveness, because he doesn't think he deserves it.

He doesn't even accept the "I love you" when he finally gets it after all those years. It's a really beautiful thing that very probably still shouldn't have happened because "let's redeem the rapist" is not an arc any show should ever do under any circumstances, but ignoring my concerns about that, it's at least done well. He doesn't want anything from his victim. Not even forgiveness. He doesn't even return to her life. She's the one who finds him and invites him back in. It's a pretty rare example of restorative justice and respecting the agency and feelings of those you've hurt instead of making your guilt about what you've done their problem and retraumatizing them.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2023 23:46

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

FilthyImp posted:

Glory is a hell-dimenson God but Illyria is a literal before-the-universe eldritch force. Would be a good slobberknocker to be sure.

Illyria had her powers drained to a more Buffyverse level pretty soon after she was introduced, so it'd be a closer fight after that.

Pan Dulce posted:

Goons, I have a recommendation to ask for. We're about to get to the middle of S3 of Buffy and afterwards, Angel starts. But I'm torn.

I never tried this until the lockdown and HOO! You should alternate between shows. They connect more than a few times, and if you include thematically, like Slumber Party and Tabula Raza, a fair bit more.

The crews took into account what the others were doing rather a lot more than it seemed when I was just watching both shows the whole way through.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2023 21:28

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Don't skip anything?

# ¿ Aug 6, 2023 21:42

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

For real. That list sucks. There are no episodes of either show worth skipping. Even the bad ones are good.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2023 22:44

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

DrBouvenstein posted:

I think the original plan for Angel was to have Whistler be his guide,

The original pilot script had Whistler in place of Doyle.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2023 20:24

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

NikkolasKing posted:

Onto Season 6, folks. Revisiting ground I haven't covered since I was like...13 watching all this on FX. If nothing else, there will probably be a lot of poo poo I don't remember. So that's something.

I'm already confused
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxWWAg7zTEk

"And Alyson Hannigan as Willow."

As opposed to every other season since the beginning? And she's listed las with no Head/Giles at all. Bizarre. Also Amber Benson/Tara never got a opening credit spot. Bullshit.

With and And/as credits are indeed different than others. If you're the star, you go first, but if you're as big or bigger than the star, you often go last, often with an And/as credit and the bigger money and prestige that go with it.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2023 00:29

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Eve was supposed to be Lilah, if memory serves, but they couldn't make it work for whatever reason and rewrote the part.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2023 02:06

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

DrBouvenstein posted:

Finished my Angel rewatch, and this time I really noticed how God-drat fast they sprint towards that end, basically two episodes and a couple smaller pieces sprinkled in earlier (like Angel giving the baby to the Fell.)

Guessing the sudden cancellation notice is what made them have to wrap it up all quick, because it's REALLY bizarre that everyone (both his friends and the Circle) all believe that in the span of a couple months he TOTALLY went evil and is DEFINTELY joining the Circle, and not trying to take them down. At the very least, he should have pretended he DID change back to Angelus, because other than trying to "gotcha" him by forcing him to sign away his Shanshu rights, they really didn't do much to test he was evil. I mean...I guess they had him kill Drogan, and he made it LOOK like he had Fred killed, but still odd they believed that. Especially since he didn't get anything out of it? The point of that season was (sort of) the old adage that was that "Power corrupts" but if he orchestrated Fred's death, to what end? What power did The Circle think he gained by doing that? The Circle didn't seem to be "evil for evil's sake", so simply killing your good friend JuST BECAUSE doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd care about.

But man, if that had another season where Angel slowly started to be (at least appear) like he WAS getting more corrupt from running WR&M? It really would be a lot more believable. And would draw a nice corollary to season 2 when he felt he lost his purpose.

I buy all that. The entire plan was to give Wolfram and Hart to Angel so exactly this would happen. When people see their plan succeeding it makes them feel smart and capable and it blinds them.

# ¿ Aug 14, 2023 22:03

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

loving everybody hated Kennedy. Online, offline, in all universes but the shrimp one.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2023 22:46

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I've heard "bloody" on loads of British television, so I had no idea it was even considered a curse word there except on the level of "drat" or whatever, where it's the lesser version of something that's actually banned.

# ¿ Aug 27, 2023 21:53

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

sebmojo posted:

It's like broad, it's a very derogatory term for a woman but more in the sense of stupid than nasty?

I had no idea what the word meant until one day I called my sister a "tough broad" to one of her friends and she told me off for no poo poo ten minutes.

It means slutty, turns out. But nobody had ever used it that way in my entire life. They still haven't.

Medullah posted:

I'M THE BIGGEST WANKER IN THE WORLD!

# ¿ Aug 30, 2023 00:14

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

Medullah posted:

This is still one of my favorite comic coverse ever.

Yeah one of the many things I hate about the show adaptation is how they really didn't make him into the giant piece of poo poo he was revealed to be in the comic.

My least favorite thing about that show is that they forgot to make Jesse and Cassidy loving friends, much less the kind of friends who love one-another enough that his eventual reveal as a weapons-grade piece of poo poo would actually land, to say nothing of his eventual redemption.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2023 21:19

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

I didn't even watch season three.

I didn't hate that it was different. I liked watching a version of the story where I didn't know what was going to happen.

I didn't even dislike anything else, either, really. It just wasn't good enough to maintain my interest.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2023 03:38

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

sebmojo posted:

At first I thought you were talking about buffy and my head was on its side like a baffled Labrador

Dawwwwww. Thank you for that image.

And yeah, that would make no loving sense.

FilthyImp posted:

Did preacher TV ever do the Meeting Bill Hicks scene?

Not in the first two seasons, and they dropped the John Wayne thing too, which I appreciated, because the man was a loving monster and those parts are really hard to read now.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2023 01:37

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

FilthyImp posted:

Aw.

Good for the Wayne ghost thing. Maybe they could have made it work by making it some deranged cgi-cartoon man where they eventually show it's a flanderized make believe creation and the real Marion Morrison was a piece of poo poo. Or some psychoanalysis thing with Jesse and a father figure.

Considering what else they hosed with...

I would've been all the way on board with this, yeah. Using Jesse's idealized version of John Wayne as an extension of a late-series All Is Lost moment where at his lowest moment, he also realizes that the hero he holds in his head actually loving sucks, then has to rebuild himself from nothing?

That would've been the tits. I'm a sucker for things like that, and to tie this back into Buffy, that's basically what Spike went through, except his idealized hero was himself, and even without a soul, he saw that he was actually a monster and was so loving horrified he risked his life to be a better man.

It's a super huge shame that, like John Wayne, Joss Whedon was also an aspirational figure in my life who turned out to be a goddamn monster, so all that Spike stuff reads as his self-insert fan-fiction about terrible actions never, ever, ever being unforgivable, and positing that everybody can be redeemed, which would've been a great message if it wasn't coming from a guy who had to be banned from being alone with an underage girl under his employ.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2023 21:07

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

roomtone posted:

If it helps, most of that spike stuff probably didn't originate from Joss because marti noxon was running the show in S6 and Joss was stretched between firefly, angel and Buffy and always kind of resented spike's popularity anyway, spike is not a Joss self-insert

If the rumors are true about Marti having a three-way with Marsters, I'm not sure this is much better.

It's better, to be sure, but still.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2023 01:36

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 17:43

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

sebmojo posted:

That spike stuff is silly, Xander is plenty awful enough to complain about as a self insert

I can think two things are gross in retrospect.

Though, actually, the Xander thing actually stuck out to me at times as the poo poo was still airing.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2023 02:27

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