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ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012

pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is
That's what I meant when I said 'jakob for female corrin', though I understand the ambiguity.

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Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009
Eh, that was a whoops on my part.

For whatever it's worth, that's your avenue for doing weird Jakob kids replicate tactics the fastest, which is a thing I've been meaning to just try out since it sounds kind of dumb. Plus since it's F!Corrin, you get two Replicate kids. So it's actually a good pairing if you're willing to go weird.

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!
I consider myself to have done well if I get out of Percy's map with 5k gold, so watching you methodically squeeze every drop of exp and gold from that map was incredible.

Also a quick shoutout to the relay run, especially now that it's gotten back around to your second turn. It's pretty great, y'all should check it out!

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!
Somebody call for an ant?

My favorite part is everyone going "wtf guys" followed by going "I must use this -precious resource here- right now or else someone else will use it" and then devoting the entire map to doing something goofy with it.

Or in Zorans case, just casually map clearing ch 10 again with all that nonsense.

Terper
Jun 26, 2012


Your latest relay video is incredibly evil, I love it, keep it up champ.

Erg
Oct 31, 2010

Terper posted:

Your latest relay video is incredibly evil, I love it, keep it up champ.

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!
Somebody call for an ant?

Seriously I'm glad you pointed us to it, I'm loving the not so cooperative run.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNgUEeq_Jjs

Having accomplished our little adventure with Percy in what seems to be no time at all, we return to Cyrkensia. Garon orders the invasion of Hoshido. The vanguard, headed by Corrin, sails across the southern sea. Along the way, it gets waylaid by pirates.




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theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!
early promoting mozu should be illegal :argh:

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!
Somebody call for an ant?

Rip boots. I'm sorry, but it was for the challenge run.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!

theshim posted:

early promoting mozu should be illegal :argh:

Release yourself from the prison you’ve constructed

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012

pretentious fuckwit who isn't half as literate or insightful or clever as he thinks he is
Since there isn't a huge amount to talk about gameplaywise, outside of this being a well executed 9 turn rout of a map which begins to show the teeth of Conquest's lategame (powerful enemies with mixed offenses and overlapping ranges backed by status that you must defeat with clever use of the Dual Strike mechanic, both yours and the enemy's), let's talk about the minor plot change that the Good Guy Garon mod made which makes this chapter a lot better!

Azura isn't a complete moron! That's almost literally it. Corrin convincingly pretends to be evil and Azura goes 'well that's alarming but it's part of the plan' instead of deciding, apropos of nothing, that Corrin is evil for real now despite just having this conversation about pretending to be evil. It's bizarre that this problem came up in the first place.

I cannot for the life of me grasp why it would originally be like that on purpose. It feels like a translation error but it could just as easily be several writers' ideas smashing headlong into each other and none of them noticing until the game was ready to ship because they weren't being coordinated properly. The wonders of Fire Emblem Conquest, everybody!

midnight lasagna
Oct 15, 2016

this pit is full of stat boosters
This video feels like it was just as much an excuse to show off your knowledge of nautical terminology as it was your strategy...

This is a fun map, but this is also very much the point around which I start leaving my units paired up instead of going for dual strikes. Conquest is my favourite FE but my biggest gripe about it is how difficult it can be to predict what's going to happen on enemy phase, between enemy dual strikes, skills, debuffs, and the AI.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with Shura. Maybe he'll get to kill Kotaro...

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
Appendix B: Inheritance

In this game, there are five ways in which children inherit traits from their parents.


Class Access

With a couple of very rare exceptions, every child gets three classes innately: one default class and two accessible via Heart Seal. One of those Heart Seal classes will always be the same, while the other one depends on the variable parent (usually the mother—in this game, most kids are tied to their fathers). For example, Percy always has Wyvern Rider and Fighter, and our Percy also inherits Knight from his mother.

Sometimes there's class overlap: the child already has the mother's base class, and they can't inherit it again. If Percy were mothered by Camilla, then instead of getting Wyvern Rider, he would receive Camilla's alternate class, Dark Mage.

In a few cases, it's possible to have total class overlap. Percy's two fixed classes are exactly the same as Beruka's: Wyvern Rider and Fighter. She can't give him either of her classes, so the game resorts to "parallel classes": it looks up the opposing nation's equivalent of the mother's primary class and tries to pass that down instead. Hoshido's counterpart to Wyvern Rider is the Sky Knight class, so Beruka!Percy ends up with Wyvern Rider, Fighter, and Sky Knight.

The way I've described this so far suggests that each child has two classes that are hard-coded and then one more that gets inherited from the variable parent. That's almost correct in practice, but it's not actually how the game decides class inheritance. In fact, each child only has one hard-coded class, which is their default class. The other two classes are then set as follows:
  1. The father (specifically him, not necessarily the canonical parent!) attempts to pass down his base class.
  2. If the father's base class is the child's base class, the child gets the father's (first) Heart Seal class instead.
  3. The mother attempts to pass down her base class, unless it's Songstress.
  4. In the case of Corrin's canonical child, Kana, the game looks up the parallel version of the non-canonical parent's base class. If that fails, then Kana doesn't get a third class; if that parallel class exists, then the game proceeds to the next step without yet selecting that class for Kana.
  5. If the child can't inherit the mother's base class, the mother attempts to pass down her (first) Heart Seal class.
  6. If the child also can't inherit the mother's Heart Seal class, the mother attempts to pass down the parallel version of her base class.
  7. If all else fails, the mother passes down the parallel to her Heart Seal class.
The place where these details matter most is in Azura's son Shigure. Shigure always has Sky Knight and Troubadour, but if his father is Jakob, he gets Wyvern Rider—not from Jakob but from Azura! He starts as a Sky Knight, and Jakob gives him Troubadour. Azura can't give him Songstress or Sky Knight, so she first resorts to the parallel class of Songstress, which is Troubadour. But Shigure can't get that either, so she gives him the parallel version of Sky Knight instead.

The fact that the father's class is chosen first also matters with Kana if Corrin's talent class is the same as their spouse's base class. Suppose you take Mage (i.e., Dark Mage) as your talent, as I have done. If Corrin marries Odin, then Kana will get Nohr Prince as his base class, Dark Mage from his father, and the parallel to Dark Mage, which is Diviner, from his mother. But if Corrin is male and marries Ophelia, Kana receives Nohr Princess as her base class, Dark Mage from her father (Corrin), and Samurai as the alternate class from her mother.

Note that even though the father's class is selected before the mother's class, the actual ordering of the child's classes for the purposes of Friendship/Partner Seals is always:
  1. Base class
  2. The alternate class they always have regardless of parentage: the father's class for most kids, Troubadour for Shigure, and the talent class for Kana
  3. Other class, if any

The only way for a child not to get a third class is for Corrin to choose a talent that has no defined parallel class—Monk, Shrine Maiden, Apothecary, or Troubadour—and then marry someone who has that class as their base class. It's pretty silly that it works out that way:
  • There's no good reason why Monk/Shrine Maiden aren't programmed as parallel to Troubadour (F) and Troubadour (M). Every class has separate male and female versions behind the scenes, so there's no issue with having to map two distinct classes onto the same Troubadour class.
  • They apparently wrote a special case for Kana that results in no class at all, preempting the step where the algorithm would select the non-canonical parent's secondary class.

Skill Inheritance

This is pretty straightforward. Children get the bottommost skill in each parent's equipped skillset. DLC skills are skipped—you can't pass those down. Children also can't get Azura's Inspiring Song skill, which would be entirely useless for them because no one other than Azura can sing.

Kids who start in a base class that's different from those of their parents, such as our Effie!Percy, have a small advantage because neither parent necessarily has to promote or change classes in order to pass down a skill.

For parents to pass down something unique that the child can't eventually acquire on their own, they usually have to go into their Heart Seal or Friendship Seal classes.


Growth Rates

Each child has a set of predefined personal growth rates (growth rates without any modifiers from their class). Those default growth rates are averaged with the growths of the non-canonical parent.

The canonical parent has no effect on the child's growth rates at all.


Stat Inheritance

Kids can get modest stat bonuses from their parents, but only if the parents are significantly better in a particular stat than the child would be if scaled to the level of the current (upcoming) chapter.

The game computes a set of projections for the child's personal stats by taking their level 10 personal base stats and adding in their total growth rates (personal + class growths) for each level from 10 to the chapter level, then rounding to the nearest integer (with halves rounding up). For chapters after 18, that target level is greater than 20. Even though the children will ram the level 20 cap, these projections continue as if they could keep leveling up to reach the number defined for the chapter. That's level 22 after Chapter 18, then 24 after Chapter 19, and so on.

Then for each stat, the game calculates
F = max{0, [Father's personal stat] - [Child's projected personal stat]}
M = max{0, [Mother's personal stat] - [Child's projected personal stat]}
L = 2 + floor([Child's projected personal stat, but without passing the level 20 cap]/10)
Inheritance bonus = min{L, floor((F + M)/4)}


In other words, for every four points by which the parents collectively surpass their child in a stat, the child can receive one bonus point. The "L" term limits the inheritance so that, for example, the really slow kids who don't average at least 10 Speed by level 20 can only receive a maximum of 2 Speed from their parents, no matter how fast those parents are. Note that this limit depends on the child's projected personal stat based on their displayed level at the time of recruitment, not the projection that F and M use that can grow beyond the level 20 cap, so it's more punishing the longer you delay their paralogue.

***I have seen one instance where these formulas weren't exactly right. I got them from Serenes Forest originally, and they're correct in almost every case. I have yet to work out the cause of the discrepancy.


Support Bonuses

Each character in Fates has two unique sets of bonuses that they apply to their support partners: one set of personal pair-up bonuses and one set of personal adjacency bonuses.

Pair-up stats for children are assigned as follows:

C rank: Father's C rank bonus
B rank: Mother's B rank bonus
A rank: Father's A
S rank: Mother's S

In the case of our Percy, this translates to:
C: Skl +1
B: Lck +1
A: Str +1
S: Str +2

He would be a pretty good Strength-boosting partner for his wife, especially if he became a Berserker (providing a total of +8 Strength!).

Children's adjacency bonuses follow the opposite pattern:
C rank: Mother's C rank bonus
B rank: Father's B rank bonus
A rank: Mother's A
S rank: Father's S

For Percy, that's:
C: Crit +3
B: Avo +5
A: Crit +3
S: Hit +10

It's a little disappointing that Percy doesn't inherit more of his father's amazing Hit bonuses.

As always, these adjacency bonuses are counted in full only when the unit is dual striking in a tag team. If a unit is merely adjacent to the lead combat unit and isn't directly supporting them, only 40% of the listed bonus is applied.

Zoran fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Dec 29, 2022

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B3Cp-1FZaQ

King Garon has secretly arranged an alliance with the country of Mokushu, located on the southern tip of the Hoshidan continent. After bringing our ships into port, we must make contact and negotiate passage for our armies.




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Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009
I laughed at the mobile ninja wall reveal, as well as the idea that you basically don't use the dragon veins at all barring trapping Saizo.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
I wish I had invented the portable wall technique because it's really clever.

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Cheating at a raffle? I sentence you to 1 year in jail! No! Two years! Three! Four! Five years! Ah! Ah! Ah! Ah!
Somebody call for an ant?

I'm not even sure how you would beat that level without it.

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009
Painfully, and with lots of dragon vein usage. It's a thin margin of balance where you flip the rocks like light switches to block off approaching dudes. My last run had Kinshi Knight Mozu with a Great Knight Silas pair-up ready with her bow to fly to any currently blocked off wall section to damage the ninjas while the rest of my army killed the other units. Flip a switch, army finishes the injured and remaining dudes, Mozu flies off to another blocked section to damage ninjas.

I do play on Maddening, but definitely not as finely tuned as the videos here.

midnight lasagna
Oct 15, 2016

this pit is full of stat boosters
I'm glad to see Shura get his revenge. To think his story ends with him either getting benched or made into shoes 99% of the time... Getting to see Saizo's boss quote (and his boss defeat quote, which is really rare even in other FE games) would have been even sweeter, but I guess that would have just been a waste of EXP.

Camilla reaching level 5 just in time to get crucial damage on that ninja was great, as was Mozu using her as a wall. Somehow it never occured to me to have someone on the other side of the invincible 1-2 ninja-proof roadblock.

Conquest does give you a lot of ways around high avoid, but Kotaro really shouldn't be on a throne imo. He might be my least favourite boss in the entire series, either him or that one Ninja in Chapter 3. The only way he could be more annoying is if they gave him Rend Heaven and a high crit weapon.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
The only boss terrain in this game that’s more egregious is the Old Gate that Omozu's on in chapter 3. Just… why?

Terper
Jun 26, 2012


I keep rewatching the previous videos whenever I've finished with your latest video, just to keep my Fire Emblem hunger somewhat satisfied now that we're in the waiting room. Engage's looking to take quite a few things from Fates so I suppose it's good training, too!

Blue Labrador
Feb 17, 2011

Everything about Kotaro is hosed up haha. The Fe6 Throne, the combo of Silver and Flame Shurikens, the Lunge Samurai next to him... this was a cathartic video.

It also made me realize how much an early use of a Shelter/Sing chain can totally change a map. I pretty just accept that Saizo's gonna outpace me and die at some point when I play this map, but doubling up with Azura on that first turn gave your team so much early momentum to ride on. That's impressive!

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7g8oZR4sB8

Corrin throws some money changers out of the temple.




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theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!
I know I've said this a bunch of times at this point, but great googly moogly is the thought and care going into this series freakin' impressive. That ersatz fort in the center systematically dismantling those brutal merchants was absolutely :discourse:

Keldulas
Mar 18, 2009
Given that you're giving Selena so much Lance experience and ignoring axes as much as possible, I'm guessing you're planning on crossing over back to the Sky Knight line for Rally Speed?

Effie for the next promotion?

Dance Officer
May 4, 2017

It would be awesome if we could dance!
Wow. Leo is a jerk.

Anyway, I think I'm chiming in for the first time, but in my opinion this is the best fire emblem let's play that this forum has seen.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATvKY0lpRUY

At Izumo, Corrin unveils his secrets. He's not the only one with surprises in store.




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Zoran fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 7, 2023

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!
Our first retirement! Selena did a hell of a lot for this run, she'll be missed.

Curious to see how you're going to weave in the paralogues now that you're starting to unlock a bunch of them. Are we gonna do all of them as soon as possible, or hold off some for extra exp later?

I want to reiterate one more time how great this series has been, Zoran. You're doing amazing work.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
One important consideration is that I can’t save paralogues for too long because the last kid will need at least 6 battles after their own recruitment map to get an S support.

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!

Zoran posted:

One important consideration is that I can’t save paralogues for too long because the last kid will need at least 6 battles after their own recruitment map to get an S support.
Ooh, yeah, that actually puts you on quite the clock, doesn't it? I forgot that everyone also has to get married :v:

Blue Labrador
Feb 17, 2011

Some of those paralogues get super nasty once enemies start promoting, Soleil's being one of them (imo). I'm super interested to see where you space them out.

Also, Laslow's joke at the end of his S support is a total dick move, but I respect that he saw a chance for a gag and took it.

Blue Labrador
Feb 17, 2011

Oh, I remembered something I wanted to ask. You've mentioned having to reset for unfortunate crits and misses, but do you also reset if you get some kind of fortunate dodge you weren't planning on? Like, if an enemy ninja misses an 87% or something like that, do you reset for the sake of demonstrating your strats with the debuffs/HP hits in mind?

I'm curious because your recording sessions seem rigorous already, and I want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!

Blue Labrador posted:

Oh, I remembered something I wanted to ask. You've mentioned having to reset for unfortunate crits and misses, but do you also reset if you get some kind of fortunate dodge you weren't planning on? Like, if an enemy ninja misses an 87% or something like that, do you reset for the sake of demonstrating your strats with the debuffs/HP hits in mind?

I'm curious because your recording sessions seem rigorous already, and I want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I had to do that in my first attempt recording chapter 17 so that Selena would get attacked by that one automaton (she dodged like 3 defense debuffs in a row), but otherwise no, it’s usually not a problem.

In my test file I play with a patch that prevents dodging except when I’m specifically attempting dodge-tanking tactics like with Jakob here, so I usually have all those survival thresholds accounted for whether or not they actually come up.

Blue Labrador
Feb 17, 2011

Zoran posted:

I had to do that in my first attempt recording chapter 17 so that Selena would get attacked by that one automaton (she dodged like 3 defense debuffs in a row), but otherwise no, it’s usually not a problem.

In my test file I play with a patch that prevents dodging except when I’m specifically attempting dodge-tanking tactics like with Jakob here, so I usually have all those survival thresholds accounted for whether or not they actually come up.

Fates really likes to let players suffer from success huh?

Thanks for replying, that's interesting! That patch sounds super helpful for planning purposes, I didn't realize Fates hacking was at a point where minute mechanical changes could be done like that, that's awesome!

SirSystemError
Jan 3, 2018

I think the thing I was most impressed with this time wasn't anything you did, but a comment on the video pointing out that no, you can in fact interact with the imprisoned royal siblings by way of the princesses' personal skills. That's the sort of thing I was expecting to have come up in the video itself, but I guess there wasn't much place for it except potential showing off.

Although speaking of recording resets, is there editing involved when something goes south in regards to the intros to each, or do you repeat that for each attempt?

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!

SirSystemError posted:

Although speaking of recording resets, is there editing involved when something goes south in regards to the intros to each, or do you repeat that for each attempt?

I almost always record everything up to start of battle separately from the battle itself, with a match cut from one to the other, unless everything happens to go right on the first attempt.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
I thought I might be able to beat engage within two weeks while streaming it. I was… very wrong! But if you’re following this LP, don’t worry: I’ve got things planned for the next several chapters of this run as soon as my first Engage playthrough is over.

Einander
Sep 14, 2008

"Yeh've forged a magnificent sword."

"This one's only practice. The real sword I intend to forge will be three times longer."

"Can there really be a sword as monstrous as that in this world?"

"Yes. I can see that sword... Somewhere out there..."
I've been watching the stream recordings in the background while I do other things (because it helps me restrain the urge to play through Engage again before more of the DLC is out), so as far as I'm concerned we've gotten plenty to watch from you recently. Don't burn yourself out trying to do two LPs at once!

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Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0oqQUA8OmE

We reach a town plagued by bandit raids. The mercenary captain leading the town watch is a familiar face—and she's desperately outmanned.




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Zoran fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 3, 2023

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