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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
The way Nat is doing the LP is also not how many players might go about things, especially not the first time around - for example, you might go halfway through an area or down a dead end and with half your health remaining, you might decided to say gently caress it and go back to the last save point, then the second time it's easier with more knowledge and maybe another level. And while you're going back to the save, a soul happens to drops. And back to where you started, another one, maybe. That's how "naturally" you can end up "grinding" without doing it deliberately.

I think Nat is doing what's best for LP pacing - he pushes on without repeating content, he just cuts out long walks back if it's boring, and it's more exciting to think "oh drat he hasn't saved in ages and is out of potions noooo". But that's where the discrepancy to casual play comes in, I think.

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ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Simply Simon posted:

I think Nat is doing what's best for LP pacing - he pushes on without repeating content, he just cuts out long walks back if it's boring, and it's more exciting to think "oh drat he hasn't saved in ages and is out of potions noooo". But that's where the discrepancy to casual play comes in, I think.

One other thing I realized and took away for my current play through was to actually use potions…they are just $200 to hammer after all. Too much giant robotic crab syndrome I guess, and it’s a shame because clearly I knew the bosses were signaled…

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




ulmont posted:

One other thing I realized and took away for my current play through was to actually use potions…they are just $200 to hammer after all. Too much giant robotic crab syndrome I guess, and it’s a shame because clearly I knew the bosses were signaled…

Doesn't help that this is the only GBA game where that's viable. Circle of the Moon potions can be gotten only from drops, and the lowest level ones are absolute garbage. In Harmony of Dissonance, they're obtainable for money but don't restore enough to bother with.

In this game, even the basic potion is enough to help until pretty late in the game and the cost is reasonable.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
If you're still stuck on Death at the time of this post, the Giant Ghost soul lets you kind of cheese the first phase of this fight. It's a toughie, but it is doable!

Sylvian Wastes
Jan 3, 2022

by Hand Knit
I want to scream at how little ducking nat is doing. Its an essential part of dodging deaths attacks quickly in the second phase, and dodging projectiles in general.

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer

Sylvian Wastes posted:

I want to scream at how little ducking nat is doing. Its an essential part of dodging deaths attacks quickly in the second phase, and dodging projectiles in general.
Yeah, I suspect this is the main problem here. The slide move is really useful here, in both phases.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Death is deathinitely a point where the game asks you if you're really high enough level and really got enough Souls + resources, or if you maybe want to take a step back, explore somewhere else, find a few things, ya know

Like, it's a bit brutal of a question, but it's fair enough overall imo

(I got the lightning doll Soul to speed it up a lil' in the second phase)

NGDBSS
Dec 30, 2009






I see Natural20 is on his usual "stubbornly trying to shove my head through a wall rather than pull back in the slightest for consideration" game here. Imagine how much worse things would be if he were playing Bloodborne.

Shitenshi
Mar 12, 2013
Nat really needs to learn how to use that double jump properly when Death starts the high speed scythe AOE attack in the second phase. Once you got that down pat, gently caress potions.

Also surprised to see that Tea thinks this is the worst boss in the game. I can think of two assholes later on that are way worse than this one, and there's even a wide gap in power between those two. The one, maybe not everyone struggles with but it's attacks can be damaging if they connect and that alone makes it kinda annoying. The other fast little fucker? People here who've played this game know exactly who I'm talking about.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat

Shitenshi posted:

The other fast little fucker? People here who've played this game know exactly who I'm talking about.

It's my favorite fight in the game tbh, but we'll get to that when we get there. I do think Death is the hardest boss in the game relative to when you fight it though.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Shitenshi posted:

The other fast little fucker? People here who've played this game know exactly who I'm talking about.

IIRC this one wrecked me until I switched weapons for maximum range in a melee weapon.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Shitenshi posted:

Nat really needs to learn how to use that double jump properly when Death starts the high speed scythe AOE attack in the second phase. Once you got that down pat, gently caress potions.

Also surprised to see that Tea thinks this is the worst boss in the game. I can think of two assholes later on that are way worse than this one, and there's even a wide gap in power between those two. The one, maybe not everyone struggles with but it's attacks can be damaging if they connect and that alone makes it kinda annoying. The other fast little fucker? People here who've played this game know exactly who I'm talking about.

See, I know what Tea means but I'm gonna choose to interpret "worst" differently because while the double scythe is cool Harmony of Dissonance had the best second phase and they didn't up their game.

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer

Bruceski posted:

See, I know what Tea means but I'm gonna choose to interpret "worst" differently because while the double scythe is cool Harmony of Dissonance had the best second phase and they didn't up their game.
They upped their game in literally everything but that. Ugh. Can't even play HoD in the Advance Collection, it's just so bad in so many regards.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

anilEhilated posted:

They upped their game in literally everything but that. Ugh. Can't even play HoD in the Advance Collection, it's just so bad in so many regards.

Oh absolutely, I have a soft spot for the game but it's clunky as heck and putting it into the collection against Aria and Circle (which was a lot better than I expected once I wasn't playing it on a backlight-less original GBA) really emphasizes that.

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?
Something all three games share is that the music for the first "stage"/gameplay area in each is a loving banger.

Shitenshi
Mar 12, 2013
I'll never forget that on my most recent playthrough of HoD, that I found out you can skip the first boss. He's not guarding anything, and you can walk around his room.

White Coke
May 29, 2015
How much would leveling up help Nat20 against Death? How much more health would he have or damage would he do if he were five or ten levels higher?

Marluxia
May 8, 2008


I won't lie, I did chuckle darkly as soon as I saw Nat use that high potion and then get to the pre death save room.

Re levels, it does up your damage and one less hit that you need to make against Death is one less chance to screw up and it reduces the time you spend in each phase.

ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Marluxia posted:

Re levels, it does up your damage and one less hit that you need to make against Death is one less chance to screw up and it reduces the time you spend in each phase.

Levels also up your defense and one more hit you can take is one more chance you have to screw up without losing.

Rigged Death Trap
Feb 13, 2012

BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP

White Coke posted:

How much would leveling up help Nat20 against Death? How much more health would he have or damage would he do if he were five or ten levels higher?

Aria formula stuff once again

Each level gets you about 12ish HP, 2-3 ATT (2-3 STR) and a point of DEF (1-2 CON) and INT.
Ten levels would be like 120-140 extra hp, 20-22 more attack and 9-10 more Def.
ATK and DEF both increase/decrease damage respectively by 1.
Bullet (Red) souls run off STR and some have a higher multiplier than others, meaning their damage can scale massively with STR.
Guardian (Blue) run off INT in the same way, but iirc they generally have lower multipliers so their scaling isnt as good.

Its kind of unintuitive: youd think the casting side of things would use INT not STR, but no, STR is the god stat in Aria, and some souls can reach stupidly high numbers.

A good soul for death here is the valkyrie which has a huge multiplier, sweeps a large area and is holy elemental.

Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Apr 27, 2022

White Coke
May 29, 2015

Rigged Death Trap posted:

Aria formula stuff once again

Thanks, that’s exactly what I wanted to know.

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.

Shitenshi
Mar 12, 2013
I was surprised to see the damage Nat was taking drastically lower so much after getting the Pitch Black Suit. I knew it was good, but drat. And the Ascalon is truly a bitchin sword.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

Shitenshi posted:

I was surprised to see the damage Nat was taking drastically lower so much after getting the Pitch Black Suit. I knew it was good, but drat. And the Ascalon is truly a bitchin sword.

If I remember right damage taken is straight up Power - Defense, with a few different formulas for power based on the enemy and attack but that's not relevant here. So if you're taking 25 damage from a hit and gain 10 defense, you're taking 15 and have almost doubled your survival time.

GunnerJ
Aug 1, 2005

Do you think this is funny?
I would go back for that drat suit tbh

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

GunnerJ posted:

I would go back for that drat suit tbh
It's an insane upgrade. Super worth it tbh

Something I forgot to mention: it's a little annoying to me that one of the coolest movement abilities in Castlevanias is locked behind a random drop in Aria, and if you don't know about it, there's little chance you'll get it (singular, out of the way enemy). We've seen it! Once!

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer
"Skula" is actually a mistranslation of Scylla, a mythical monster you might remember from Symphony.

Simply Simon posted:


Something I forgot to mention: it's a little annoying to me that one of the coolest movement abilities in Castlevanias is locked behind a random drop in Aria, and if you don't know about it, there's little chance you'll get it (singular, out of the way enemy). We've seen it! Once!
Yes, this is one of the most baffling decisions in the game. While (I think) they give it a high drop rate, it's just not enough.

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

Simply Simon posted:

It's an insane upgrade. Super worth it tbh

Something I forgot to mention: it's a little annoying to me that one of the coolest movement abilities in Castlevanias is locked behind a random drop in Aria, and if you don't know about it, there's little chance you'll get it (singular, out of the way enemy). We've seen it! Once!

Are you talking about the ____ downward kick _____? I'm drawing a blank otherwise.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

anilEhilated posted:

"Skula" is actually a mistranslation of Scylla, a mythical monster you might remember from Symphony.

Yes, this is one of the most baffling decisions in the game. While (I think) they give it a high drop rate, it's just not enough.
like 20 kills last time I played

Omobono posted:

Are you talking about the ____ downward kick _____? I'm drawing a blank otherwise.
i am

Rosalie_A
Oct 30, 2011
Aria has a fair number of rooms that are just empty except for an enemy or two in them. This isn't accidental: it's to provide an easy place to grind for the soul if so inclined. As a result, most every enemy ends up close enough to a room transition to very quickly and safely respawn and fight.

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.

NGDBSS posted:

I see Natural20 is on his usual "stubbornly trying to shove my head through a wall rather than pull back in the slightest for consideration" game here. Imagine how much worse things would be if he were playing Bloodborne.

Just remember, if there is a boss fight, just keep going at it over and over until you get good.

Do not think about going elsewhere or changing your loadout, that is folly.

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!

Natural 20 posted:

Just remember, if there is a boss fight, just keep going at it over and over until you get good.

Do not think about going elsewhere or changing your loadout, that is folly.

:hmmyes: sage advice. People just need to :gitgud:, if they don't demolish a wall by repeatedly slamming their heads into it are they even trying?

anilEhilated
Feb 17, 2014

But I say fuck the rain.

Grimey Drawer

Rosalie_A posted:

Aria has a fair number of rooms that are just empty except for an enemy or two in them. This isn't accidental: it's to provide an easy place to grind for the soul if so inclined. As a result, most every enemy ends up close enough to a room transition to very quickly and safely respawn and fight.
IIRC some of them also contain Hard mode exclusive items.

Natural 20
Sep 17, 2007

Wearer of Compasses. Slayer of Gods. Champion of the Colosseum. Heart of the Void.
Saviour of Hallownest.
Episode 11 - Underground Reservoir

Updated art will come when I'm not on holiday in Athens.

Zurai
Feb 13, 2012


Wait -- I haven't even voted in this game yet!

"I will get the Bat soul and turn into a bat!"

Nat, you already have the Bat soul, and that's not what it does. It was the very first soul you got in the game.

Epicmissingno
Jul 1, 2017

Thank gooness we all get along so well!
Nobody likes slimes? Slimes are losers? I take offence to that!

Gnoman
Feb 12, 2014

Come, all you fair and tender maids
Who flourish in your pri-ime
Beware, take care, keep your garden fair
Let Gnoman steal your thy-y-me
Le-et Gnoman steal your thyme




One of the funny things here is the number of enemies that the Une soul would be quite useful against.

Shitenshi
Mar 12, 2013
There are only a few offensive souls that are better than the Nightmare, and even then with it's cheap MP cost, power, and range, it's still a contender for endgame.

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ulmont
Sep 15, 2010

IF I EVER MISS VOTING IN AN ELECTION (EVEN AMERICAN IDOL) ,OR HAVE UNPAID PARKING TICKETS, PLEASE TAKE AWAY MY FRANCHISE

Shitenshi posted:

There are only a few offensive souls that are better than the Nightmare, and even then with it's cheap MP cost, power, and range, it's still a contender for endgame.

I ended up using the one the game strongly encourages you to use out of inertia. Flame Demon

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