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Hello-- I'm mostly a lurker in these forums who occasionally posts, but there are a few topics that I really care about. There is a very interesting and heated thread that already exists dedicated to the question of transgender as well as intersex athletes, and the whole notion of genders sports in general. This is an interesting and nuanced topic, but outside of an abusive relationship with the New York Mets, I don't really care about sports! Trans athletes deserve respect, but so do chubby trans people like me! Welcome to the world of hating yourself because you don't look cute one day, and then worrying that you look TOO cute the next day and a man is going to murder you for tricking them. It's FABULOUS. This thread is dedicated to discussions of sexuality and gender, and how it impacts people on a global scale. While I think this thread will mostly be dominated by American politics, I think we can welcome discussion for global victories and discrimination of LGTBQIA individuals around the world. More importantly, we should feel free to discuss how race, religion, class, and imperialism do indeed intersect with the issues faced by LTBQIA individuals. Before we go any further though, here is a quick primer for how we discuss things. The stuff I'm posting is kinda the baseline for even discussing any of this stuff. So, let's get started... Sex-- sex refers to a wide set of biological characteristics a person can have that range from their genitals, chromosomes, to hormones your body produces. Generally, most people have pretty predictable sexual characteristics that have often been bucketed into a binary of male and female. But lots of people cannot as easily be grouped... Intersex-- intersex people are people who exist on a spectrum of not easily being bucketed into a sex for a variety of reasons including their chromosomes, genitals, or sexual development. It's almost as if there is not actually an easy binary of clear boxes you can label people as... Gender-- gender is a social construct that was created around how interpret the sexual characteristics. Gender exists in some form in all cultures, but the number of genders that exists, language used to discuss gender, and cultural expectations of being part of a gender vary greatly by culture, geography, race, and religion. The Gender Binary-- the gender binary is a particular social construct of gender that sees gender as only being defined by two sets of predictable sexual characters. In short, boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Gender Essentialism-- gender essentialism is the belief that usually accepts the gender binary as a given and assumes that there are inherent qualities to men and women. Men play with trucks and women play with dolls; Men are good at math and women are good at poetry. Men are risk takers; Women are caregivers. It is also widely known as sexism.  Hold up a second! So, you're born with a penis so that means you're born a boy?Nope! See, your sexual characteristics are indeed indisputable facts, but remember that gender is a social construct. And the thing about any social construct is that babies don't pop into the world understanding them. Nobody is born a boy or girl. People are born with vaginas or born with XY chromosome pairs. Our current understanding is that gender is something that develops over time, both an individual's understanding of the concept of gender and their personal gender. Gender assigned at birth-- most people do have a gender assigned at birth. Usually the gender aligns with predictable sexual characteristics. They see a penis and shout, 'IT'S A BOY!" The baby has no say and concept of this. And if you're a non-binary parent with a son like me, yes, you stay up late thinking about this. Over time though people usually develop two key features about themselves... Gender Identity-- gender identity is the language and identity uses to define their gender in their society. Remember, gender is a social construct. There are tons of examples of third genders in history and religious or cultural expressions of those ideas. Most people though live in societies primarily dominated by the gender binary and express their gender by accepting and/or rejecting that binary. Gender Expression-- gender expression is how someone outwardly expresses their gender. Gender expression is very dependent on individuals, but also culture, religion, and race. For example, the wearing of the hijab is an important aspect of expressing femininity in some cultures while minding your edges is an important part of expressing masculinity in Brooklyn. Covering of the female breast is big in some cultures and less so in other cultures. There is no right way to express one's gender. Cisgender-- cisgendered people are those who have a gender identity that aligns with the one assigned at birth, but remember that doesn't necessarily mean their sexual characteristics fully match what's expected of that gender. Intersex people are often just shoved into a gender and if I theoretically took a baby with a vagina, said he was a boy, raised him as a boy, and he was fine with that as his identity, he is a cisgender boy. Transgender-- transgender refers to anyone who rejects the gender they were assigned at birth. Many transgender people like myself will not only modify their gender expression, but also use medical treatments such as hormone treatment in order to feel more comfortable. GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT DEFINED BY YOUR BODYI am very open about my experience, so I will be straight up with you, I am a trans lady and I have a penis. I like my penis. We're friends and have been through a lot together. I'm keeping her! I shave every morning and go through what is frankly an absurd skincare routine. That does not make me less trans or less a lady. Yes, that does mean theoretically someone can look like Vin Diesel and identify as a woman. Get over it.Nonbinary-- nonbinary people are people whose gender identify can not be defined by the gender binary. Reasons people identify this way vary. I am a nonbinary person, although I often refer to myself as trans and a lady. The reason I identify as nonbinary is because there are aspects of my life that still feel masculine. There are women who have a similar body and experience to me and don't consider themselves nonbinary. It's personal. Agender-- agender people tend to not feel that they fit the gender binary and are not defined by gender at all. Genderfluid and genderqueer-- These are very loose terms that can include people whose expression fluctuates, identity fluctuates, or both. Okay, okay... so let me get this straight. You were born a boy and decided you're trans but also nonbinary... but also a lady?Nope! Once again, I was not born a boy because nobody is born a boy. I was simply born with a penis and was assigned as male as such. Like everyone, my gender identity and expression developed over time. There are indeed choices that everyone makes. I choose to use they/them pronouns. I choose to call myself nonbinary. I choose to wear cute outfits. But these terms we use are just a messy way to express something that is very true about me. Sometimes the terms and expression is imperfect. Just like a cis girl who has wore too many juicy sweatpants or dudes who look back with shame on how much they used the f-slur as a child to fit in with other dudes, gender expression and the words we use is never going to perfect or neat. We're all just doing best to understand ourselves and be understood. Okay, okay... but like is this... is it a sex thing? I mean LGTQIA is about who you gently caress right?Nope. Gender and sexuality are entirely different things, but they often intersect. The persecution of queer people is rooted in authoritarian support of the gender binary. In short, we as a society have literally murdered people in the name of upholding the idea that "Boys kiss girls." You cannot truly have a society that acts equitable to all sexualities unless you first dismantle the gender binary, just like you will always have gay people who suffer in the face of capitalism and white supremacy. Sexuality is also not about loving although for many if not most of us, it's at least somewhat about loving. Sexuality encompasses attraction, romance, longterm partnerships, and for many, sex. Here are some examples of sexualities: Straight-- people who identify on the gender binary and are attracted to the "opposite" members of the gender binary Gay-- people attracted to the same gender as themselves Ace-- a broad term for asexual people who don't get pleasure out of sexual intercourse and varying levels of physical intimacy and aromantic people who don't take pleasure from intimate romantic relationships. Sometimes people are both aromantic and asexual, sometimes they're one but not the other Bisexual-- a term originally used for people who like two genders, often male or female, but has evolved into a more open term that can often by synonymous with pansexual, but really depends on the person Pansexual-- people who enjoy folks from multiple genders And More-- there are a wide range of identities and names that people can use to describe their sexuality and it can often be a messy process, many defining themselves in terms of attraction to gender, but also experimenting with defining their sexuality on elements not related to gender or sex Okay, well I'm working on a big spreadsheet to figure out my sexuality... Can FICO give me my Kinsey score?Sexuality is a big messy spectrum and I only included a few common sexualities. Like we said with gender, they're just words doing their best to represent something that feels true. I don't even use a word to describe my sexuality, but I mostly like women and feminine nonbinary people. But you can be a straight dude or gay woman and have enjoyed going down on a dude. You can be an asexual person with a filthy search history. There is no right way to be a certain sexuality, it's all a beautiful mess! Okay well I'm a straight white Cis Male so none of this really affects me, right?An important thing to understand is that gender identity, gender expression, and sexuality are not things that only queer people have. Everyday, Cis boys--especially those of color--are made to feel like a threat because of their gender identity. Everyday someone has sex they don't enjoy because of the expectations put upon them. The Gender Binary is a system that hurts all of us. Challenging it is not just about Trans rights or gay rights are not just about letting one relatively small group of people be happy and safe. It's about all of us! Here are some best practices: --Be willing to ask someone for their pronouns, and if they're comfortable, their gender identity. Don't inquire about their bodies. Except me because I'll tell you. --Remember you don't determine someone's gender or sexuality, they do. Tired stereotypes, preying on their past experiences, or making assumptions based on their bodies is cruel. --Once again, NOBODY. IS. BORN. ANYTHING. Gender develops. Sexuality develops. Please refrain from saying people changed or decided or are no longer something. They just are even if they lived under another identity or were born looking a certain way. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 20:40
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Apr 11, 2022 20:40
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Excellent post. Was there anything you wanted to start the discussion with, or are we just sort of... starting to talk about whatever points are interesting? The one thing that caught my eye that I'm not familiar with is: quote:Sapiosexual-- people attracted to intelligence more than physical traits Is this generally recognized as a sexuality, per se? All the other ones make sense, but "I like smart people" seems like it doesn't really belong here. I think you could be attracted to intelligence while still being attracted to... only women, or only men, or everyone. I guess another question would be: is there a word for being, for example, "straight and attracted to nonbinary people" or "gay and attracted to nonbinary people" or does that fall under pansexuality despite excluding one or more genders? I suppose you could equally refer to that as bisexuality, despite the fact most people would understand that as being attracted to men and women. Another thing we could discuss: is genderfluid or genderqueer a label that someone has to identify as themselves, or is appropriate to say "X is genderqueer" because their gender expression is far outside societal expectations regardless of how they have identified themselves? For example, Lil Nas X has worn some beautiful dresses, but as far as I've seen, he identifies as a man and uses he/him pronouns.
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Apr 11, 2022 23:22
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Thanks to op for making this thread! Depressing/infuriating stuff ahead: So the "Don't Say Gay" bill in Florida is hosed and evil. Here's a piece about it if you're not familiar: https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-rights/3263384-floridas-parental-rights-in-education-act-is-unconstitutional-unnecessary-and-bigoted/. But if you think it's about trying to drive lgbtq people into the closet, well, that's a half-truth! It's about building support for mass murder. Here's what DeSantis's press secretary says: https://twitter.com/ChristinaPushaw/status/1499890719691051008 They know exactly what this rhetoric is. I'm not going to dive into the history of "they're gonna get your children" and genocide but this is how it works. https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/status/1511721033207848960 https://twitter.com/RepMTG/status/1511171842366713858 https://twitter.com/saoirsegowan/status/1512977926819618818 Here's another godawful thing that just got passed. https://www.gaytimes.co.uk/life/alabama-governor-kay-ivey-signs-two-deadly-and-harmful-anti-trans-bills-into-law/ quote:medical professionals will face felony charges for offering gender-affirming care to trans youth under the age of 18 years old. According to the AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics), it seems depriving trans youth of their medical resources will increase the suicide rate of trans children. Here's what they say: https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/12780. There's no way this is not intentional, but frankly who cares, we know where it leads. I sure hope other people and especially people with power fight back against this! Remember the only reason gay people can even get married in the United States is a single Supreme Court case! Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 11, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 23:23
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a discussion i had with an ex a while back was that she was not totally settled on her gender identity at the time. she identified and still identifies as female, but has at different points in her life felt different or unsure. at one point she asked me if she decided that she was trans and identified as a man whether or not i would still date or or be attracted to her. it was a hard question but at the time i felt like the answer was yes. i consider myself a straight male. i dont have any attachment to that identity, but ive never noticed an attraction to someone who i thought identified as something other than a woman. as a thought experiment i asked her if her changing her identity would make me bisexual and she said that yeah, it would. this got me to thinking like..... im sure there is at least one person out there who is a trans man who is someone i would be attracted to - just playing the percentages - but im not really sure what implications that has for my identity at the end of the day i guess it doesnt really matter to me too much - straight is the most convenient and accurate description of how i feel. this seems like the easiest way to answer this question but im kinda curious how other people might think about it
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Apr 12, 2022 00:48
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PT6A posted:Excellent post. Was there anything you wanted to start the discussion with, or are we just sort of... starting to talk about whatever points are interesting? I think that kind of speaks to my issue of coming up with an accurate starting point of what the current challenges are. Right now Conservatives are ramping against queer people from two directions: --Using religion freedom to walk back pretty much decided law --Using children as a trojan horse for their insidious poo poo The former, honestly has always been expected. The latter is more concerning to me because I think it hits these multiple layers. The pedophile angle is tricky because I think it obviously speaks to Q folks, but for a lot of people who are ignorant of stuff like transition for young people, it's easy for them to spin it as teachers or therapists pushing kids into transitioning. We saw in the other thread even pretty moderate allies worried about some of the stuff their parent friends were communicating to them. They're pulling right of center people while also knowingly riling up people who might seriously hurt queer or allied educators. PT6A posted:Is this generally recognized as a sexuality, per se? All the other ones make sense, but "I like smart people" seems like it doesn't really belong here. I think you could be attracted to intelligence while still being attracted to... only women, or only men, or everyone. Skoliosexual is the term for only liking nonbinary people and honestly, people are very eager to coin terms for whatever part of the spectrum you're on. Some of them suck which is why a lot of people just go with queer. As far as the last question, I think it's about labeling the expression over the man, ya know? Who knows how Lil Nas would feel, but probably best to frame it as "Lil Nas dresses in a gender fluid way" as opposed to "LIl Nas is gender fluid." But of course it's tricky and comes with some assumptions about what men dress like. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 01:13
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Verviticus posted:a discussion i had with an ex a while back was that she was not totally settled on her gender identity at the time. she identified and still identifies as female, but has at different points in her life felt different or unsure. at one point she asked me if she decided that she was trans and identified as a man whether or not i would still date or or be attracted to her. it was a hard question but at the time i felt like the answer was yes. Labels are meant to be descriptive and not prescriptive, so it's ok for you to add an asterisk at the end of however you identify if you're in a position where it's relevant, or even change the labels and adopt something different if it feels more to yourself. You don't owe anyone attraction because they fit your label. Likewise, it's ok to have exceptions to your usual range of attraction. I'm not sure many people are as ready to deal with the fact that what began as a heterosexual relationship may become a queer one (struggles in existing relationships are a huge theme in newly out trans and non binary stories), but yeah. In my (limited, queer) experience, labels are there as shorthand and not law.
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Apr 12, 2022 01:44
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Verviticus posted:a discussion i had with an ex a while back was that she was not totally settled on her gender identity at the time. she identified and still identifies as female, but has at different points in her life felt different or unsure. at one point she asked me if she decided that she was trans and identified as a man whether or not i would still date or or be attracted to her. it was a hard question but at the time i felt like the answer was yes. Ultimately, it means whatever you want it to mean for your identity. With my partner, the stuff I thought would turn me off about him transitioning turned out to not be a big deal. I turned out to be just as excited for the changes as he was. I'm in love with the person and not the gender of the body. Writing that out, I guess that's kind of a pan thing to say. So, I'd say I have a pan outlook in that I just have people that I like, but the people I like happen to mostly be girls.
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Apr 12, 2022 02:14
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I suppose I'd look at labels for sexuality like I would... a dictionary. A dictionary does not tell you what words are supposed to mean, it tells you what they do mean and how they are used. It's a descriptive statement, not a prescriptive statement. I honestly think most people who identify as straight would, if they were attracted to someone of the same sex, not have a problem with pursuing a sexual relationship with them, all other things being equal, in the absence of weird cultural/religious hang-ups. It's just that, to my mind, "straight" describes a lack of those attractions in the first place, not necessarily an unwillingness to act on any attractions that do exist. Say, for example, you encountered a person who said, "yes, if I were in position to start a sexual relationship, I would have sex with any consenting adult to whom I was attracted." Is that person pansexual if they've only ever been attracted to people of one gender? Likewise, if you have one of those weird preachers who says a thing like "homosexuality is a temptation we all have to fight," are they really straight even if they've only ever had relationships with the opposite gender? I knew a guy who identified as straight who said "if I ever meet a guy that really turns me on... yeah I'd gently caress him. It's just never happened." To my way of thinking, that probably describes a lot of straight people, absent social pressures. So, if you identify as straight but you're attracted to someone of the same gender and you both consent... well: have fun!
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Apr 12, 2022 03:09
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Timeless Appeal posted:Bisexual-- a term for people who like two genders, often male or female I'd like to chime in and note this right here is an enormous can of worms. Bisexuality's naming convention is a lot older than discourse around the modern model of gender identity being a spectrum. A better working definition of bisexuality in my opinion is 'attraction to more than one gender', where as pansexuality more accurately is defined as 'attraction regardless of gender'. Unfortunately the definitions used above have been used by certain people to harass bisexual people by claiming they are inherently transphobic or prejudiced against non-binary people, both of which are fairly absurd and pretty offensive. Edited to clarify, as opinions on such definitions are just that, there really isn't any prescriptive definition. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 05:10
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One good explanation I heard for bisexual being inclusive is that you can define the two sides as "self" and "other"
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Apr 12, 2022 08:11
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Liquid Communism posted:I'd like to chime in and note this right here is an enormous can of worms. Was going to post something on this. I think the best way to look at it is that bisexual and pansexual can often mean the exact same thing or close to with very subtle differences. Or they could have a very specific idiosyncratic meaning for that person. The key is "if someone tells you what their sexuality is you don't get to correct them". There's exactly zero point to policing this kind of thing other than gatekeeping and making GBS threads on others. Not that anyone is doing that here, but we both have seen it happen. I know several bisexual people who use the 'pan' definition you've given to describe themselves.
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Apr 12, 2022 08:32
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Absolutely, and there's no real good that can come of arguing against someone's self-definition, nobody else knows their mind as well as they do. It's a frustrating issue, and not helped by the amount of poo poo people get over bi/pan identities even from other queer people over stuff like 'if you're in a faithful closed relationship with a partner, then clearly you're gay/straight', or 'a bi partner is always going to cheat on you, it's in their nature'.
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Apr 12, 2022 10:34
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I will admit that as much as I said it's all a beautiful wishy washy mess, my brain kind of defaults to wanting to closely organizing things. So, I do struggle with the fluidity of some of the terms. I think it is kind of a cruel joke that understanding gender and sexuality requires a lot of mental flexibility, but like me, a disproportionate amount of the community is on the spectrum which can lead to wanting to clearly identify things. I'll edit. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 13:17
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If taken in the context of the two options being hetero and homo, then bisexuality would presumably mean "different and the same" In reality of course hetero doesn't usually mean hetero either as a lot of self identified herteros are probably picky about enbys.
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Apr 12, 2022 15:56
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So, to make a more current events oriented post and the actual big struggles in the states. There currently over 240 bills targeting LGTBQIA+ people, mostly targeting trans people and often children. This speaks to greater issues of legislation not in-step with the general values of the nation. quote:As the number of anti-LGBTQ bills hits record highs, research shows that so, too, has support for LGBTQ rights and policies prohibiting discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people. Nearly 8 in 10 Americans, or 79 percent, support laws that protect LGBTQ people from discrimination in jobs, housing and public accommodations, according to a Public Religion Research Institute survey released Thursday. That same survey also found that nearly 70 percent of Americans support same-sex marriage, up from 54 percent in 2014. The hope however is to turn this into a wedge issue. It's not a mistake that the GOP is seeking a new hook to hang their hat on as they earn victories against abortion rights. The biggest wedge issue though and where they want to get moderates is by staking ground on parental rights, and the thing is this is an incredibly thorny issue. What cannot be ignored are the basic statistics and risks for trans youth that things like Florida's Don't Say Gay Bill are exasperating. I think this quote from the Trevor Project is the most startling... quote:The Trevor Project estimates that at least one LGBTQ youth between the ages of 13–24 attempts suicide every 45 seconds in the U.S. The good news is that just having a family who accepts and affirms your gender identity, expression, and/or sexuality can reduce the chances of a suicide attempt by 50%. This is both an important statistic, but also I think serves a reminder that it cannot just be on families. Even with accepting families there is trauma in not matching the heteronormative narrative that is hurting kids. After the infamous North Carolina bathroom bill, President Obama gave guidance on gender inclusion in schools. While the Trump administration walked this back, a lot of places were indeed reformed and remain reformed. Here is an example of New York City's gender inclusion guidelines for school for example. Where we are going to hit issues and I think where you're going to start to hit narratives from Conservatives of evil liberal schools gone mad is how we treat students who are queer, but not out at home. Sexuality was often something that was easy for a teacher to accept, but not talk towards although conservatives seem to want to turn teachers into narcs on gay kids. When it comes to gender however, affirming students often requires acknowledging pronouns, not deadnaming someone, and creating accessibility to bathrooms. The reality is there are kids who do not feel safe being out with their parents, and I will tell you from experience this creates a bind where a child does request that they be deadnamed and misgendered when speaking to parents while having the gender identity recognizes in school. This is of course correct, and many places like NYC with strong teacher unions and clear guidelines will protect teachers to a degree, but it's this dynamic that I think fuckers like DeSantis want to zoom in on. The idea that a kid is secretly plotting their gender identity behind their kids' backs when the reality is that teachers are trying their best to ensure kids don't kill themselves in the face of abusive and unloving parents. And it's one of the areas that I think the Conservatives can really strike hard. A lot of the progress we've seen on LGTBQIA+ rights, sometimes supported by Conservative judges is rooted in the equal protection clause and Title IX which do not really speak to the safety of a child, privacy, or what is frankly a public health concern. As a trans educator moving from the safety of NYC to a bit of a lefty island in North Carolina, my ability to protect children or even teach as myself is very limited by where I live.
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Apr 12, 2022 16:08
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Meanwhile, in Maryland....quote:Bills stall in the final days of the General Assembly session all the time and for all kinds of reasons. A committee chairperson’s drawer is a particularly dark hole in the legislative universe. Unfortunately, even a massive Democratic majority is not always enough to shore up access to transition-related care, because there are plenty of Democrats who are either transphobic or are more concerned about the potential political costs of helping trans people than they are about pushing back against the GOP's culture war on us. It's an unfortunate illustration of how dangerous this moment is for LGBTQ+ people: Republicans are very much out to get out us, but the Democrats are inconsistent allies, at best. Hawaii also has apparently some legislation in the works to prevent private insurers from discriminating against trans people seeking affirmative procedures like Facial Feminization Surgery(FFS), so hopefully they'll do better. As for me, I identify as a trans woman and a lesbian. And I can tell you I barely qualified as living until 9 months ago, when I started HRT. I'm on Medicaid in CT(Husky D) and I literally haven't paid a dime so far(lots of states do this. Though, of course, Husky has its own pitfalls in terms of trans care, like only theoretically covering electrolysis, but I digress). I can't emphasize enough how freeing that's been and how accessible this makes literal life-saving care. I posted about this because one of my trans Twitter follows was apparently involved in lobbying for this and is (understandably) very upset about this happening. https://twitter.com/ErinInTheMorn/status/1513917275295948805 She was at the hearings, apparently, the video of which has been scrubbed from the Maryland House's website. Sounds like there was some really loving transphobic poo poo said. K, I'll probably go back to lurking now.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:50
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whats truly beyond the pale is that even the delegates that claim to be supportive of trans people refuse to name names on which delegates voted against this in committee
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Apr 14, 2022 02:47
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Thanks for making this thread. Something dedicated for queer issues was needed here. My only concern is that the reason there wasn't one was that these type of threads tend to attract the bad faith assholes. So knock on wood this thread stays up.
BigRed0427 fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 03:07
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A big flaming stink posted:whats truly beyond the pale is that even the delegates that claim to be supportive of trans people refuse to name names on which delegates voted against this in committee I think what's incredibly frustrating though is that trans folks make up such a small part of the population, giving us money for gender affirming procedures is like financially meaningless. Currently out trans people are currently .6% of the whole US population. Not an insignificant number, but there is a reason why the majority of Americans don't personally know a trans person. Even among the LGTBQIA community--which is mostly made of people who identify as bi and cis--we only make up 11% of the population. Numbers are of course wonky because 15% of Gen Z identifies as queer compated to 5.6% of the whole population and we can assume if were to correct for clear biases that tend to sway people against coming out(Being assigned male, religious and political pressures), we'd see a much bigger number. We'd be looking at more, but regardless, a couple million people distributed across a giant rear end country with a population of over a quarter billion is nothing. Governments have lost the money required to give equitable affirmative care by mistake.
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Apr 14, 2022 03:28
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Its something really low if i remember. Like if you assumed all 1.4 million adults who identify as trans will get surgery then use the high end cost of 75k and just inflated it to 100k to make math easier youd still only be clocking a one time payment of 140 billion dollars. 1/7th of defense spending.
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Apr 14, 2022 09:30
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Genuine question: are we actually treating sapiosexuality as an actual orientation now...?
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Apr 14, 2022 09:45
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some plague rats posted:Genuine question: are we actually treating sapiosexuality as an actual orientation now...? No, it's not a thing.
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Apr 14, 2022 11:31
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some plague rats posted:Genuine question: are we actually treating sapiosexuality as an actual orientation now...? Please remember that people also challenged that bisexuals are just confused gay people or needy straight ladies, or people arguing that asexual folks had no place in pride. Dismissing a sexuality often ends up being the wrong move in the end. If the word makes sense to the person who cares. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 11:54
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some plague rats posted:Genuine question: are we actually treating sapiosexuality as an actual orientation now...? I personally find the argument for the various conditional attractions etc to be similar to the one for aces, which is that they may still find themselves on the lovely end of social norms that have historically been dominated by the same people who make life lovely for lgbtq people. Sexuality is complex and it can get silly if you try to make words for all of the possible ways anyone can experience it but if their experience helps them understand the importance of getting rid of the stifling social rules that make life worse for everyone then I don't see why I shouldn't find common cause with them. The club is going to become less exclusive over time as those norms are dismantled and people hopefully start just liking whoever they like and are more open to liking more people because they live in a society that celebrates that as much as our current one does heterosexual attraction, and the ideal world i want to see is one where none of the sexualities make sense in the same way that people who like eating cheese don't have a name for themselves, it's just normal, it's not something you would comment on or build an identity around, you can just do it, there is no stigma or need to fight for it that would mark your experience out as unusual. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 17:19
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The difference between bisexuality, pansexuality, and sapiosexuality is largely up to debate, given how we use these terms to identify self. I use bisexual, despite not believing in the binary, being attracted to intelligent beings of all shapes and sizes could be arguably more appropriate. But I still use bisexual for the same reason I wouldn't use sapiosexual, how people would look at me when I use the term and whether or not they'd get it. People generally get what I mean by bisexual and it doesn't invite unnecessary questions. I don't think sapiosexual means attraction purely to intelligence but the suggest you are broadly potentially attracted to emotionally mature individuals who possess intelligence ie everything but animals and children are fair game.
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Apr 14, 2022 20:39
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"Demisexual" is another one I felt was kind of extraneous when I first heard it (it wasn't mentioned in the OP, but it means that a person has to have a personal relationship with someone to consider them sexually attractive, something along those lines), but I guess now I realize it kind of has a place where someone doesn't just immediately look at an attractive person and think "Oh they're hot." It's not asexuality but I can understand someone wanting an easy way to say "Look, just seeing a person and wanting to bang them right away isn't something that happens with me." So I've kind of come around on it, a little bit, anyway.Timeless Appeal posted:I think what's incredibly frustrating though is that trans folks make up such a small part of the population I know you said this in reference to health care funding, but I feel like this is probably a big reason why the GOP is trying to go all in on banning talk about being trans and doing everything they can to unperson trans people. Most people probably knew at least one gay person growing up, but there may be people who don't know any trans people and thus don't have that personal connection that makes them realize "This is a person I know and respect and they deserve rights too." I feel also like there's a larger disconnect between being able to accept a trans person and a gay person to some people. Like "I'm a dude like you, I just like having sex with other dudes instead of women," someone can still see them as "normal" and who that person is dating doesn't really change much about them. Whereas "I maybe biologically male, but I identify as a woman" is kind of alien thinking to people, since if you can be the opposite gender of your sex, why can't you be all sorts of other things that you can't normally be (which is also why you get The One Joke)? And assuming the trans person wants to be out of the closet about it and start dressing and acting in a way that's more in line with the gender they identify as, this does to an extent change a lot about the person that can make interacting with them feel weirder. It also doesn't help when you have assholes like Ted Cruz making jokes about how "Gosh if I'd known I could sexually harass women by saying I identify as a woman I would've done it in high school." And it also doesn't help that there are gay and lesbian people who are absolutely willing to throw trans people under the bus, like Martina Navratiloa, a lesbian tennis player who's adamantly against trans women competing in sports, which helps give the idea that "Even a lot of the people in the LGBT acronym don't like the T part" which can give people who don't personally know trans people the idea that it's something that should be opposed. It's frustrating and I've said elsewhere it worries me a bit, because the right feels really empowered for two reasons: one is the victories they got in elections last year, like in Virginia where the CRT stuff were a big reason Youngkin won since the right succeeded in framing it as "Parents should have a say in what schools are teaching" which was easy to start applying to other things conservatives hate like gay rights. The second is the Dems are doing an incredible job of loving up governing to the point that Republicans might win a lot of elections in the midterms even if people don't agree with their anti-gay/trans policies, but the politicians will take it as a mandate that "This is what the people want." And of course if lawsuits pop up and it gets all the way to SCOTUS, there's a conservative majority. I don't know what the solution is either because it seems like the right is convinced this is the way to move forward, and as others have said, the fact that there's plenty of transphobic Dems or even ones that may be supportive but fear backlash means even an overwhelming Dem victory in the midterms would still probably not be enough to move forward on trans rights.
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Apr 14, 2022 22:02
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Twelve by Pies posted:I can understand someone wanting an easy way to say "Look, just seeing a person and wanting to bang them right away isn't something that happens with me." So I've kind of come around on it, a little bit, anyway. I mean, isn't this true of basically everyone? Demisexual definitely comes across as one of those "applies to everyone, but I'm special so I need a different label for it". It's extremely reminiscent of "queerplatonic" which turned out to just mean "being friends".
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Apr 14, 2022 22:45
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Again, if it means someone is willing to subscribe to good political goals I really don't see what is served by belitting their feelings about themselves and others. If they make you act right they're good feelings, IMO. I have significantly more in common with a decent cishet person than I do with a bisexual person who acts in opposition to wider LGBTQIA liberation.
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Apr 14, 2022 22:49
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some plague rats posted:I mean, isn't this true of basically everyone? I would say the fact that porn, where you do not know the actors on a personal level and are just there to see naked people, is very popular would indicate "no, this is not true of basically everyone." Unless the entire porn industry is just a handful of people watching videos thousands of times a day to inflate numbers.
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Apr 14, 2022 22:54
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OwlFancier posted:I personally find the argument for the various conditional attractions etc to be similar to the one for aces, which is that they may still find themselves on the lovely end of social norms that have historically been dominated by the same people who make life lovely for lgbtq people. Hm. Not sure about this at all. No one is ever going to experience societal oppression for being sapiosexual. No US state is passing laws against mixed-IQ marriage. No one is getting yelled at and beaten on the street for being a smart-fucker. No one is refusing to date anyone who likes the big bang theory. This just doesn't line up Pladdicus posted:I don't think sapiosexual means attraction purely to intelligence but the suggest you are broadly potentially attracted to emotionally mature individuals who possess intelligence ie everything but animals and children are fair game. Seems like someone who meant that would just use pan? I know technicalities are fun but usage determines meaning and in the wild I've literally only seen "sapiosexual" used to mean "hetero, but condescending and snobbish about it"
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Apr 14, 2022 22:55
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Twelve by Pies posted:I would say the fact that porn, where you do not know the actors on a personal level and are just there to see naked people, is very popular would indicate "no, this is not true of basically everyone." Unless the entire porn industry is just a handful of people watching videos thousands of times a day to inflate numbers. You think people approach watching porn and basic social interaction with strangers in the same way and with the same goals...? Hate to say it but you need to get some better friends
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Apr 14, 2022 22:58
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some plague rats posted:Hm. Not sure about this at all. No one is ever going to experience societal oppression for being sapiosexual. No US state is passing laws against mixed-IQ marriage. No one is getting yelled at and beaten on the street for being a smart-fucker. No one is refusing to date anyone who likes the big bang theory. This just doesn't line up But the entire reason LGBTQIA is a thing is because we want a world where that doesn't happen. Our identities cannot be defined forever by suffering, it may be suffering that brought most of us together but as advances are made then necessarily this is going to also be less true for more and more LGBTQIA people, and that's a good thing. It is going to be necessary at some point for our political freedoms to be maintained by people who have never suffered their absence, so to me it is far more important that somebody believes in liberation than whether they personally suffer for the lack of it. The latter is only a route to the former, and it isn't a route for everybody who experiences it either. Nobody has ever, technically, done anything to me because of my bisexuality because very few people know about it, so if suffering is necessary to join the club then I shouldn't be allowed in either. And going by what you said asexuals should definitely not be allowed in.
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Apr 14, 2022 23:00
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some plague rats posted:You think people approach watching porn and basic social interaction with strangers in the same way and with the same goals...? Hate to say it but you need to get some better friends The entire point of "demisexual" is "I do not get sexually aroused by random people being naked." The fact that porn, a thing in which the entire point is to get sexually aroused by random people being naked, is popular would indicate that the majority of people do get sexually aroused by random people being naked. Thus, I see the value in a label that indicates that the person is not like that. I don't think it's a matter of "I'm better than those other people who get aroused by random people" either, since the times I've heard it used the person was in fact hesitant to bring it up, and worried how it would be perceived. Like, the very fact that your first response was "Oh so you just want to be special?" and your followup after the explanation was "Wow sounds like they're hosed up people!" kind of shows they were right to be worried about how it would be perceived. BigRed0427 posted:My only concern is that the reason there wasn't one was that these type of threads tend to attract the bad faith assholes. Oof.
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Apr 14, 2022 23:06
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some plague rats posted:Hm. Not sure about this at all. No one is ever going to experience societal oppression for being sapiosexual. No US state is passing laws against mixed-IQ marriage. No one is getting yelled at and beaten on the street for being a smart-fucker. No one is refusing to date anyone who likes the big bang theory. This just doesn't line up The thing is, you don't get to dictate how someone defines themself. You can claim some disconnect between what they say and how they present, though I can't currently imagine a scenario where that isn't rude as hell, but their identity is a fact you just have to acknowledge. e. Not specifically you, you. 3rd person you Bel Shazar fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 23:10
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OwlFancier posted:But the entire reason LGBTQIA is a thing is because we want a world where that doesn't happen. Our identities cannot be defined forever by suffering, it may be suffering that brought most of us together but as advances are made then necessarily this is going to also be less true for more and more LGBTQIA people, and that's a good thing. It is going to be necessary at some point for our political freedoms to be maintained by people who have never suffered their absence, so to me it is far more important that somebody believes in liberation than whether they personally suffer for the lack of it. The latter is only a route to the former, and it isn't a route for everybody who experiences it either. Asexuals and bisexuals have absolutely suffered societal oppression though? Maybe not you personally, but other bi and ace people certainly have and their suffering needs to be recognized and acted against. Demi and sapio sexuals have never experienced a single moment of oppression on account of their sexuality ever, and folding a bunch of preferences masked as orientation under the LGBT umbrella dilutes our fairly simple demands for equality and recognition by applying them to a bunch of people who have no need of it as well as, quite frankly, making us look like a bunch of whiners.
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Apr 14, 2022 23:12
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Bel Shazar posted:The thing is, you don't get to dictate how someone defines themself. You can claim some disconnect between what they say and how they present, though I can't currently imagine a scenario where that isn't rude as hell, but their identity is a fact you just have to acknowledge. I'm not trying to "dictate how someone defines themself"!!! I'm not saying nobody can call themselves sapiosexual, that's fine, I don't give a poo poo! My point is they're not LGBT and making them part of the movement is counter-productive because they have no actual, material demands for recognition or equality so they're just along for the ride and history has shown people with no personal stake to be unreliable at best allies! This is not about gatekeeping! Stop rephrasing my point to be about saying people can't call themselves whatever, it's really annoying!
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Apr 14, 2022 23:18
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I fail to see the hard cutoff between asexuals/aromantics and demisexuals. The wider problem is people feeling it necessary to offer input on who you gently caress or don't gently caress, if LGBTQIA advocacy has opened the door for people to more readily explore their feelings about how they relate to other people and to sexuality in general then I am glad of it, and if they want to fight for better rights and for our rights then I am glad of them, too. The notion that it "dilutes" the fight I think is absurd, allies don't need the rights they fight for, but I still think they should fight for them, again I don't need any more rights, but I still advocate for them? Lesbian and gay people don't need the rights that trans people do, but many of them still fight for those rights because they believe they are human rights. If demisexuals need no legal changes then that's fine, but I see absolutely nothing to be gained by turning away their aid or fellowship, or trying to do respectability politics against an enemy that has at every single turn shown nothing but contempt for anything other than the absolute domination of their ability to dictate how everyone else lives. They are never going to respect you or me, our only hope is to crush them and for that we need as many people on board with our view of the world as possible.
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Apr 14, 2022 23:18
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e: never mind, this is not actually a fight worth having. This thread is about a lot off stuff and I don't want to turn myself into the main character and poo poo it up Owlfancier you make some good points and I'll respond when I've got a minute some plague rats fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 23:20
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some plague rats posted:I'm not trying to "dictate how someone defines themself"!!! I'm not saying nobody can call themselves sapiosexual, that's fine, I don't give a poo poo! My point is they're not LGBT and making them part of the movement is counter-productive because they have no actual, material demands for recognition or equality so they're just along for the ride and history has shown people with no personal stake to be unreliable at best allies! Deepest apologies, I read your prior posts quite differently.
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Apr 14, 2022 23:27
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