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Jaxyon posted:So this twitter thread has been making the rounds on social media, but it's really fascinating and underscores how gender dysphoria and non-conformity has always been around, but not recognized. Oh, that was a very interesting thread, and ties in very nicely with my current binge of the Totally Trans podcast
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Apr 23, 2022 00:00
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yeah, I feel ya Sharkie. I feel like some days I really want to be trans Jesus and do my best to help people come to understand. And then other days I just want to be a total bitch about it. Part of my openness about talking about my body comes from having to speak to my experience so much at work, better me than children though. For me, I just take it out on people I know to be incredibly deeply personal poo poo. I bully the gently caress out of the rusted on phobes. It's probably not the healthiest but I'm only human and gently caress those people. quote:Less so different gender identities, and more words for different types of being intersex or androgynous. Hebrew in general is very, very gendered as a language, so it's less progressive than it seems. Thats really interesting. I agree with you as a fellow white woman too. I try to not lay claim to those identities, and even the places trans people had in western societies pre christianity are not really related to me right now as a white woman in Australia. I think its fine to point all of them out and say look this is what other humans did, we are the oddity inisisting on x or y, for white supremacist reasons. You also expose people as white supremacists doing that, I don't know if you've seen the recent dunking ben shapiro took but a black man pointed this stuff out to him and Ben straight up said "they are wrong". Racism is a lot easier to get people on board with telling someone to gently caress off too so its win win. E: Like the scythians Herodotus wrote about. They had a high place in that culture and theres no way Herodotus invented what was 1990s hrt wholecloth. Different societies treated the concept we call trans differently, we are the oddities for refusing to even acknowledge it. Miss Broccoli fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 03:51
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Miss Broccoli posted:I didn't know. He should still shut the gently caress up about trans people and women. Vaush should shut the gently caress up in general as well. Dude's a self-admitted sex pest who has argued in favor of legalizing possession of CSAM because he sees no moral or legal argument against it as there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 05:44
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Liquid Communism posted:Vaush should shut the gently caress up in general as well. Dude's a self-admitted sex pest who has argued in favor of legalizing possession of CSAM because he sees no moral or legal argument against it as there is no ethical consumption under capitalism. That too. Lmao BTW if you read that awful trans sports thread and thought it was awful you should go voice your opinion in the mod feedback thread
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Apr 24, 2022 05:49
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Miss Broccoli posted:IIRC jews had 5 societal genders at one point? I'm not 100% on that one The Talmud recognizes 6 (or 8, but two of then are subcategories). Its different than a lot of the modern understanding of trans people, though. Its pretty much about how somebody who has, say, AIS, should be classified, for example, and whether they should be treated as a man or a woman or neither or both when it comes to their legal and religious obligations. But it certainly recognizes there are people out there who don't fit a strict male or female binary (and then tries to force them into that binary).
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Apr 24, 2022 13:05
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Just a reminder that D&D is not safe or welcoming for trans people. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 24, 2022 22:38
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Sharkie posted:Just a reminder that D&D is not safe or welcoming for trans people. Often not women or minorities as well, but explicitly not for transgender people. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 24, 2022 23:09
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Sharkie posted:Just a reminder that D&D is not safe or welcoming for trans people. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 25, 2022 05:05
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What the absolute gently caress is this moderation? Do you seriously think this is helping the thread, the forum, or your image by doing this? Do you have nothing better to do with your time given what you have been told in the feedback thread and given your contemptible performance moderating the last LGBTQIA issues thread, than to find the most spurious reasons to probate everybody contributing to this one? If you want something you can do to better handle moderation of this thread you can stay the gently caress out of it if this is all you intend to do, because how the gently caress can we have any conversation with you pursuing this idiotic vendetta. The only person making this thread unwelcoming is the moderators at this point.
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Apr 25, 2022 05:21
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Sharkie posted:Holy poo poo that this thread is arguing about demisexuality or whatever like it's 2015. Self-identification is a tool and if a particular linguistic object is useful to you then use it, if it's not, drop it and let it go. And also be aware of what "useful" means: does your definition of that include rethinking harmful power structures, etc.? Circle the wagons around abortion everything else is an after thought edit: or rather an outgrowth of the socioeconomic freedom provided by family planning War and Pieces fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 05:26
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OwlFancier posted:What the absolute gently caress is this moderation? Do you seriously think this is helping the thread, the forum, or your image by doing this? Do you have nothing better to do with your time given what you have been told in the feedback thread and given your contemptible performance moderating the last LGBTQIA issues thread, than to find the most spurious reasons to probate everybody contributing to this one?
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Apr 25, 2022 05:55
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OwlFancier posted:What the absolute gently caress is this moderation? Do you seriously think this is helping the thread, the forum, or your image by doing this? Do you have nothing better to do with your time given what you have been told in the feedback thread and given your contemptible performance moderating the last LGBTQIA issues thread, than to find the most spurious reasons to probate everybody contributing to this one? Just so it's not an emptyquote: we've had disagreements and discussion in this thread, and there's room for that. We don't need to allow the most absurd, and contemptible opinions to have valid discussions about issues with people on both sides. We didn't need that in the last thread, we don't need that in this thread.
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Apr 25, 2022 06:20
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Sharkie posted:Just a reminder that D&D is not safe or welcoming for trans people. i feel like the probation really helps drive home the poster's point here
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Apr 25, 2022 08:52
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It certainly doesn't make the thread feel like a welcoming place. I tend to lurk a lot more than I post, particularly outside of Games where nothing of importance is said; but seeing people get moderated for reasons I can't fathom just makes me want to post even less.
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Apr 25, 2022 09:46
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Where is this feedback thread, since I can't find it?
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Apr 25, 2022 11:05
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Archonex posted:Where is this feedback thread, since I can't find it? https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4000307&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 It is, however, now closed.
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Apr 25, 2022 11:06
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Koos, this is either a bit, or you're a moron. Either way - take it to FYAD? Oh yeah, go probe me. 
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Apr 25, 2022 13:17
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feels like way too many of the worst debacles on this site have been tied in one way or another to trans issues and its exhausting
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Apr 25, 2022 13:31
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CYBEReris posted:feels like way too many of the worst debacles on this site have been tied in one way or another to trans issues and its exhausting
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Apr 25, 2022 14:29
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mgreen42 posted:Koos, this is either a bit, or you're a moron. Either way - take it to FYAD? CYBEReris posted:feels like way too many of the worst debacles on this site have been tied in one way or another to trans issues and its exhausting
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Apr 25, 2022 15:03
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We're working on getting an IK set up specifically for this thread, so it will normally be moderated by them rather than me or other mods. They'll be a local poster from this thread.
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Apr 25, 2022 15:33
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aniviron posted:It certainly doesn't make the thread feel like a welcoming place. I tend to lurk a lot more than I post, particularly outside of Games where nothing of importance is said; but seeing people get moderated for reasons I can't fathom just makes me want to post even less. Just to broaden this out a bit, it's not like Sharkie was even saying that D&D is any worse than any other place on the internet, just that it isn't safe or welcoming. That's a general issue with basically every place on the internet that doesn't have restricted access and it is a serious issue for the fight for rights in general when speaking up about discomfort makes you a target. Having someone decide top-down that negativity about the state of things only belongs in one place is complete horseshit, and the whole point of this thread is that it SHOULD be a place where you can vent about problems the state of things, either on a micro or macro level. For all the same reasons why we can't rely on majorities to protect minorities in democracy in general and the US in particular, the general-purpose moderation thread or QCS or whatever doesn't cut it for group-specific issues - it inevitably gets drowned out by other poo poo and/or dedicated trolling. Moderation should be taking specific cues ABOUT this thread FROM this thread, and I seriously doubt anyone here asked for those probes. The upside of SA over Twitter and Reddit is that there is some baseline expectation of moderation and a filter for anon shitheads in the form of  that allows for probes and bans to actually do something. Turning that around on the people who come here (both SA in general and this thread specifically) because they need protected from the usual bullshit is especially harmful, and I feel there needs to be some sort of actual apology here rather than a token "you can self-moderate (eventually)".I'm guessing there was some sort of ruckus that spilled over from the moderation thread and the idea was to keep it contained, but no one here WANTED it contained. I'm not even that much of a fan of Sharkie in the various Pol threads, but at least ban for actual bad posts wherever the actual scuffle is rather than chasing people down to this thread and taking a poo poo on the whole concept of having a space to talk about LGBTQIA+ issues
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Apr 25, 2022 17:11
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BougieBitch posted:Just to broaden this out a bit, it's not like Sharkie was even saying that D&D is any worse than any other place on the internet, just that it isn't safe or welcoming. That's a general issue with basically every place on the internet that doesn't have restricted access and it is a serious issue for the fight for rights in general when speaking up about discomfort makes you a target. Yes, my thinking was in keeping with general policy that forums issues aren't interesting, the thread would prefer keeping it to broader LGBTQIA+ issues instead. It didn't occur to me that this could be used as a jumping-off point for more general issues, or that the thread culture is such that it would prefer to have the conversation regardless. Partly because I was a bit frazzled last night. But that's one of the reason's the thread's getting its own IK.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:27
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Have you considered apologizing to people?
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Apr 25, 2022 17:35
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El Fideo posted:Have you considered apologizing to people? Yes, I apologize.
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Apr 25, 2022 17:38
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Koos Group posted:Yes, I apologize. That's not much of an apology.
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Apr 25, 2022 18:49
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Jaxyon posted:That's not much of an apology. Well, I included most of what I would in a longer apology in the previous post, but to make it clear: I apologize for the rash probes, as it seems this had an effect of stifling discussion and making people not feel welcome here, which are both the opposite of what I want, and I mean to remedy this with the thread having its own IK.
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Apr 25, 2022 18:56
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Jaxyon posted:That's not much of an apology. You didn't see the intricate interpretive dance that went along with the words.
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Apr 25, 2022 18:58
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Koos Group posted:Well, I included most of what I would in a longer apology in the previous post, but to make it clear: I apologize for the rash probes, as it seems this had an effect of stifling discussion and making people not feel welcome here, which are both the opposite of what I want, and I mean to remedy this with the thread having its own IK. Dude, speaking as someone who was quite pleased with your performance right up until the trans athletes debacle, stop loving digging.
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Apr 25, 2022 19:02
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Koos Group posted:Well, I included most of what I would in a longer apology in the previous post, but to make it clear: I apologize for the rash probes, as it seems this had an effect of stifling discussion and making people not feel welcome here, which are both the opposite of what I want, and I mean to remedy this with the thread having its own IK. Do you understand why that happened because I would have thought anybody with a rudimentary level of emotional intelligence would not have made that "mistake" to begin with, and also because that is relevant to the wider issue of you, personally, being thoroughly deficient in your handling of transphobia on the forum. A mechanistic "oh no people are unhappy with this action therefore I will perform a different action" "oh I have been told to apologise therefore I will say that I apologise" does not suggest that you have actually taken any of the criticism people have leveled at you on board, that there is any understanding happening inside your brain, and certainly does not do anything to inspire confidence in your future decision making. Do you understand why consistently probating criticism of your behaviour on this issue rather than engaging with it makes people think you have a problem?
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Apr 25, 2022 19:14
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Bel Shazar posted:You didn't see the intricate interpretive dance that went along with the words. It was beautiful. I cried
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Apr 25, 2022 19:45
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This post might be probeable because I have a philosophical allergy to unproven ideas, whether it's religion or ultraprogressive openmindedness. I just want to apologize in advance if that happens. I'm actually trying to learn what people are doing, and asking this question in honest good faith. I consider myself gay and was supportive of the 2000s LGBT movement, but the whole "destroy the gender binary" aspect that has emerged in the 2010s hasn't really clicked with me. I admit up til now I have been, in my own head but not in public, one of those folks who thinks that because almost nobody saw these labels being used offline for the past thirty years before insular queer Tumblr communities, that they must have been incubated by online sociologists in those communities and have no scientific backing to them, and have been skeptical of it's validity because I didn't want to let touchy-feely Tumblrites define what truth is to me. We know of gay animals and trans animals, and asexual animals. Does nonbinary and all "beyond the binary" definitions we are using for people (which in my experience are often post-puberty adults with sexual characteristics) exist in nature outside of human society? Is there any scientific basis behind it? How much scientific research has been put into it? Or is it just one of those words like 'cisgender'? For those unaware, cis is one of those words which originated not in a scholarly capacity but is widely believed to be coined in a USENET post as a way to deny social dominance to the majority. I guess if something is just adopted for the sake of trying to build a nicer, more smiley society without any actual proven truths behind it, I'm not a fan in general. This is, I suppose, a root cause of the atheism-to-chud expressway. All of this is a problem because again I consider myself to be part of the minority, but it feels like gay and lesbian and trans populace are culturally adopting labels that are based entirely on faith. And I find treating a faith-based label with the same solemn seriousness that I would race to be, well, a little troubling. Obviously it's easy to respect that in society just as I'm not trying to convert any religious people, but I'm also trying to figure out where the lines of fact and faith are. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 01:04
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If there is a conception of gender separate from sex outside human society, how would we know? Looking for evidence of this outside human society is essentially pointless because we would have no way of knowing what we were looking at even if it did exist. Further, if non-binary identity is just in our collective minds, does that make it any less real or legitimate? Many aspects of our identity exist only in our minds, they are no less real for it.
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Apr 26, 2022 01:20
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1. There are trans animals?! 2. Something needing to exist "in nature outside of human society" for it to be real seems like a big ask. Universities and cars don't exist outside of human society; are they real? 3. What's the significance of the origin of the word cis? Personally, I don't think knowing the origin changes how I use it or how I think it should be used. 4. Those Tumblr communities were like all kids anyway, I don't see much use in hyper-specifically defining my gender or sexuality but nor do I begrudge 15-year-olds enjoying it as a distraction from the hell that is being a teenager 5. Non-binary people are real just like trans people and gay people are real, and it's weird as hell to me to need scientific evidence of this. I try to remember that as a binary trans person, lots of people do not understand me in the slightest, but I am still real. And I would be pissed off to have to cite sources on whether I'm real or not. So the least I can do for my non-binary siblings is not give them the third degree either. But since you asked, here's an article that reviews some of the literature: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/09540261.2015.1106446
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Apr 26, 2022 01:27
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Hawkperson posted:1. There are trans animals?! What if all the animals we thought were gay were actually trans and heterosexual? I think that's probably not the case, but we honestly have no way of knowing because we have very limited insight into the notion of self-identity in non-human animals, for obvious reasons.
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Apr 26, 2022 01:31
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Craptacular! posted:I guess if something is just adopted for the sake of trying to build a nicer, more smiley society without any actual proven truths behind it, I'm not a fan in general. This is, I suppose, a root cause of the atheism-to-chud expressway. All of this is a problem because again I consider myself to be part of the minority, but it feels like gay and lesbian and trans populace are culturally adopted labels that are based entirely on faith. And I find treating a faith-based label with the same solemn seriousness that I would race to be, well, a little troubling. Obviously it's easy to respect that in society just as I'm not trying to convert any religious people, but I'm also trying to figure out where the lines of fact and faith are. There's a lot to unpack here, but I would start with: 1. What would you consider to be a "proven truth" that is sufficient grounds to do something "to build a nicer ... society?" What is the standard of proof you're demanding? 2. You note that "gay and lesbian and trans populace are culturally adopted labels that are based entirely on faith," which I interpret as more or less describing a social construct. You draw a sharp division between these identities and the concept of race. What makes race, a societally constructed identity based in part upon immutable characteristics, any different than (say) the concept of being 'gay,' a socially constructed identity based in part upon immutable characteristics? 3. What happens if the skepticism you describe about things based entirely on humans collectively deciding to believe in them is applied to the concept of a strict and exclusive gender binary in the first place? (some of this is echoing above posters and that's because I took too long writing it!  )
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Apr 26, 2022 01:35
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Hawkperson posted:1. There are trans animals?! quote:Universities and cars don't exist outside of human society; are they real? quote:Non-binary people are real just like trans people and gay people are real, and it's weird as hell to me to need scientific evidence of this. I try to remember that as a binary trans person, lots of people do not understand me in the slightest, but I am still real. And I would be pissed off to have to cite sources on whether I'm real or not. Thank you for your link, I'll check it out. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 01:38
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Craptacular! posted:There are animals that are "trans" in so far as they have sex changes as part of their biology. Clown fish are an example that most people have seen. That doesn't really make them trans, that means they change sex in a way that doesn't have a human analogue because our biology doesn't work that way. If anything, the fact that they change sex in a biological fashion makes them closer to... genderfluid and/or nonbinary, than specifically trans? But as we can't understand what a non-human's gender identity might consist of, it's still a fairly nonsensical comparison. I have no idea if their gender identity also changes in addition to their physiology because I haven't the faintest idea what "gender identity" would mean to a fish.
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Apr 26, 2022 01:45
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Craptacular! posted:We know of gay animals and trans animals, and asexual animals. Does nonbinary and all "beyond the binary" definitions we are using for people (which in my experience are often post-puberty adults with sexual characteristics) exist in nature outside of human society? Is there any scientific basis behind it? How much scientific research has been put into it? There is a pretty good summary of the biology/science of sex & gender at the outset of this article that Woozy linked in the transgender athletes thread. https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ In summary: There's a big pile of biological and cultural phenomena that do not fit neatly in the gender binary. The reality of people is far more strange and varied than a simple 1/0 switch. quote:Or is it just one of those words like 'cisgender'? For those unaware, cis is one of those words which originated not in a scholarly capacity but is widely believed to be coined in a USENET post as a way to deny social dominance to the majority. I think you might want to revisit your ideas about where valid ideas or words come from. In general, the academy is not in the business of coining and doling out new words and definitely not in the business of defining and distributing new cultural phenomena. Mostly, when it comes to cultural things and vocabulary, the academy studies and codifies things happening in the world. A term was needed, and so in was invented and then in was adopted and is now in widespread use. I think it's kind of weird that you are fine with the idea that there are trans animals (whatever that means) given that 'transgender' was coined in 1965. It took some time to catch on. There are people alive today who identify as transsexual even though that is no longer the preferred term. It was the term that was used and continues to make sense for them. We continue to learn and things continue to change. Reality is not stable.
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Apr 26, 2022 01:48
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Craptacular! posted:There are animals that are "trans" in so far as they have sex changes as part of their biology. Clown fish are an example that most people have seen. I really don't think that's a great comparison. I kind of get what you were going for, but clownfish are hermaphrodites. When they change from reproducing as males to reproducing as females it is because of ecology / group structure. The largest individual reproduces as female, second as male, and the others are males without functioning gonads. If one of the breeding pair dies, one of the non-breeding males takes their place. It's a pragmatic, functional thing and not a gender identity thing. edit: beaten, more or less
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