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Hello-- I'm mostly a lurker in these forums who occasionally posts, but there are a few topics that I really care about. There is a very interesting and heated thread that already exists dedicated to the question of transgender as well as intersex athletes, and the whole notion of genders sports in general. This is an interesting and nuanced topic, but outside of an abusive relationship with the New York Mets, I don't really care about sports! Trans athletes deserve respect, but so do chubby trans people like me! Welcome to the world of hating yourself because you don't look cute one day, and then worrying that you look TOO cute the next day and a man is going to murder you for tricking them. It's FABULOUS. This thread is dedicated to discussions of sexuality and gender, and how it impacts people on a global scale. While I think this thread will mostly be dominated by American politics, I think we can welcome discussion for global victories and discrimination of LGTBQIA individuals around the world. More importantly, we should feel free to discuss how race, religion, class, and imperialism do indeed intersect with the issues faced by LTBQIA individuals. Before we go any further though, here is a quick primer for how we discuss things. The stuff I'm posting is kinda the baseline for even discussing any of this stuff. So, let's get started... Sex-- sex refers to a wide set of biological characteristics a person can have that range from their genitals, chromosomes, to hormones your body produces. Generally, most people have pretty predictable sexual characteristics that have often been bucketed into a binary of male and female. But lots of people cannot as easily be grouped... Intersex-- intersex people are people who exist on a spectrum of not easily being bucketed into a sex for a variety of reasons including their chromosomes, genitals, or sexual development. It's almost as if there is not actually an easy binary of clear boxes you can label people as... Gender-- gender is a social construct that was created around how interpret the sexual characteristics. Gender exists in some form in all cultures, but the number of genders that exists, language used to discuss gender, and cultural expectations of being part of a gender vary greatly by culture, geography, race, and religion. The Gender Binary-- the gender binary is a particular social construct of gender that sees gender as only being defined by two sets of predictable sexual characters. In short, boys have penises and girls have vaginas. Gender Essentialism-- gender essentialism is the belief that usually accepts the gender binary as a given and assumes that there are inherent qualities to men and women. Men play with trucks and women play with dolls; Men are good at math and women are good at poetry. Men are risk takers; Women are caregivers. It is also widely known as sexism.  Hold up a second! So, you're born with a penis so that means you're born a boy?Nope! See, your sexual characteristics are indeed indisputable facts, but remember that gender is a social construct. And the thing about any social construct is that babies don't pop into the world understanding them. Nobody is born a boy or girl. People are born with vaginas or born with XY chromosome pairs. Our current understanding is that gender is something that develops over time, both an individual's understanding of the concept of gender and their personal gender. Gender assigned at birth-- most people do have a gender assigned at birth. Usually the gender aligns with predictable sexual characteristics. They see a penis and shout, 'IT'S A BOY!" The baby has no say and concept of this. And if you're a non-binary parent with a son like me, yes, you stay up late thinking about this. Over time though people usually develop two key features about themselves... Gender Identity-- gender identity is the language and identity uses to define their gender in their society. Remember, gender is a social construct. There are tons of examples of third genders in history and religious or cultural expressions of those ideas. Most people though live in societies primarily dominated by the gender binary and express their gender by accepting and/or rejecting that binary. Gender Expression-- gender expression is how someone outwardly expresses their gender. Gender expression is very dependent on individuals, but also culture, religion, and race. For example, the wearing of the hijab is an important aspect of expressing femininity in some cultures while minding your edges is an important part of expressing masculinity in Brooklyn. Covering of the female breast is big in some cultures and less so in other cultures. There is no right way to express one's gender. Cisgender-- cisgendered people are those who have a gender identity that aligns with the one assigned at birth, but remember that doesn't necessarily mean their sexual characteristics fully match what's expected of that gender. Intersex people are often just shoved into a gender and if I theoretically took a baby with a vagina, said he was a boy, raised him as a boy, and he was fine with that as his identity, he is a cisgender boy. Transgender-- transgender refers to anyone who rejects the gender they were assigned at birth. Many transgender people like myself will not only modify their gender expression, but also use medical treatments such as hormone treatment in order to feel more comfortable. GENDER IDENTITY IS NOT DEFINED BY YOUR BODYI am very open about my experience, so I will be straight up with you, I am a trans lady and I have a penis. I like my penis. We're friends and have been through a lot together. I'm keeping her! I shave every morning and go through what is frankly an absurd skincare routine. That does not make me less trans or less a lady. Yes, that does mean theoretically someone can look like Vin Diesel and identify as a woman. Get over it.Nonbinary-- nonbinary people are people whose gender identify can not be defined by the gender binary. Reasons people identify this way vary. I am a nonbinary person, although I often refer to myself as trans and a lady. The reason I identify as nonbinary is because there are aspects of my life that still feel masculine. There are women who have a similar body and experience to me and don't consider themselves nonbinary. It's personal. Agender-- agender people tend to not feel that they fit the gender binary and are not defined by gender at all. Genderfluid and genderqueer-- These are very loose terms that can include people whose expression fluctuates, identity fluctuates, or both. Okay, okay... so let me get this straight. You were born a boy and decided you're trans but also nonbinary... but also a lady?Nope! Once again, I was not born a boy because nobody is born a boy. I was simply born with a penis and was assigned as male as such. Like everyone, my gender identity and expression developed over time. There are indeed choices that everyone makes. I choose to use they/them pronouns. I choose to call myself nonbinary. I choose to wear cute outfits. But these terms we use are just a messy way to express something that is very true about me. Sometimes the terms and expression is imperfect. Just like a cis girl who has wore too many juicy sweatpants or dudes who look back with shame on how much they used the f-slur as a child to fit in with other dudes, gender expression and the words we use is never going to perfect or neat. We're all just doing best to understand ourselves and be understood. Okay, okay... but like is this... is it a sex thing? I mean LGTQIA is about who you gently caress right?Nope. Gender and sexuality are entirely different things, but they often intersect. The persecution of queer people is rooted in authoritarian support of the gender binary. In short, we as a society have literally murdered people in the name of upholding the idea that "Boys kiss girls." You cannot truly have a society that acts equitable to all sexualities unless you first dismantle the gender binary, just like you will always have gay people who suffer in the face of capitalism and white supremacy. Sexuality is also not about loving although for many if not most of us, it's at least somewhat about loving. Sexuality encompasses attraction, romance, longterm partnerships, and for many, sex. Here are some examples of sexualities: Straight-- people who identify on the gender binary and are attracted to the "opposite" members of the gender binary Gay-- people attracted to the same gender as themselves Ace-- a broad term for asexual people who don't get pleasure out of sexual intercourse and varying levels of physical intimacy and aromantic people who don't take pleasure from intimate romantic relationships. Sometimes people are both aromantic and asexual, sometimes they're one but not the other Bisexual-- a term originally used for people who like two genders, often male or female, but has evolved into a more open term that can often by synonymous with pansexual, but really depends on the person Pansexual-- people who enjoy folks from multiple genders And More-- there are a wide range of identities and names that people can use to describe their sexuality and it can often be a messy process, many defining themselves in terms of attraction to gender, but also experimenting with defining their sexuality on elements not related to gender or sex Okay, well I'm working on a big spreadsheet to figure out my sexuality... Can FICO give me my Kinsey score?Sexuality is a big messy spectrum and I only included a few common sexualities. Like we said with gender, they're just words doing their best to represent something that feels true. I don't even use a word to describe my sexuality, but I mostly like women and feminine nonbinary people. But you can be a straight dude or gay woman and have enjoyed going down on a dude. You can be an asexual person with a filthy search history. There is no right way to be a certain sexuality, it's all a beautiful mess! Okay well I'm a straight white Cis Male so none of this really affects me, right?An important thing to understand is that gender identity, gender expression, and sexuality are not things that only queer people have. Everyday, Cis boys--especially those of color--are made to feel like a threat because of their gender identity. Everyday someone has sex they don't enjoy because of the expectations put upon them. The Gender Binary is a system that hurts all of us. Challenging it is not just about Trans rights or gay rights are not just about letting one relatively small group of people be happy and safe. It's about all of us! Here are some best practices: --Be willing to ask someone for their pronouns, and if they're comfortable, their gender identity. Don't inquire about their bodies. Except me because I'll tell you. --Remember you don't determine someone's gender or sexuality, they do. Tired stereotypes, preying on their past experiences, or making assumptions based on their bodies is cruel. --Once again, NOBODY. IS. BORN. ANYTHING. Gender develops. Sexuality develops. Please refrain from saying people changed or decided or are no longer something. They just are even if they lived under another identity or were born looking a certain way. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 11, 2022 20:40
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Apr 11, 2022 20:40
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PT6A posted:Excellent post. Was there anything you wanted to start the discussion with, or are we just sort of... starting to talk about whatever points are interesting? I think that kind of speaks to my issue of coming up with an accurate starting point of what the current challenges are. Right now Conservatives are ramping against queer people from two directions: --Using religion freedom to walk back pretty much decided law --Using children as a trojan horse for their insidious poo poo The former, honestly has always been expected. The latter is more concerning to me because I think it hits these multiple layers. The pedophile angle is tricky because I think it obviously speaks to Q folks, but for a lot of people who are ignorant of stuff like transition for young people, it's easy for them to spin it as teachers or therapists pushing kids into transitioning. We saw in the other thread even pretty moderate allies worried about some of the stuff their parent friends were communicating to them. They're pulling right of center people while also knowingly riling up people who might seriously hurt queer or allied educators. PT6A posted:Is this generally recognized as a sexuality, per se? All the other ones make sense, but "I like smart people" seems like it doesn't really belong here. I think you could be attracted to intelligence while still being attracted to... only women, or only men, or everyone. Skoliosexual is the term for only liking nonbinary people and honestly, people are very eager to coin terms for whatever part of the spectrum you're on. Some of them suck which is why a lot of people just go with queer. As far as the last question, I think it's about labeling the expression over the man, ya know? Who knows how Lil Nas would feel, but probably best to frame it as "Lil Nas dresses in a gender fluid way" as opposed to "LIl Nas is gender fluid." But of course it's tricky and comes with some assumptions about what men dress like. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 01:13
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I will admit that as much as I said it's all a beautiful wishy washy mess, my brain kind of defaults to wanting to closely organizing things. So, I do struggle with the fluidity of some of the terms. I think it is kind of a cruel joke that understanding gender and sexuality requires a lot of mental flexibility, but like me, a disproportionate amount of the community is on the spectrum which can lead to wanting to clearly identify things. I'll edit. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 13:17
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So, to make a more current events oriented post and the actual big struggles in the states. There currently over 240 bills targeting LGTBQIA+ people, mostly targeting trans people and often children. This speaks to greater issues of legislation not in-step with the general values of the nation. quote:As the number of anti-LGBTQ bills hits record highs, research shows that so, too, has support for LGBTQ rights and policies prohibiting discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer people. Nearly 8 in 10 Americans, or 79 percent, support laws that protect LGBTQ people from discrimination in jobs, housing and public accommodations, according to a Public Religion Research Institute survey released Thursday. That same survey also found that nearly 70 percent of Americans support same-sex marriage, up from 54 percent in 2014. The hope however is to turn this into a wedge issue. It's not a mistake that the GOP is seeking a new hook to hang their hat on as they earn victories against abortion rights. The biggest wedge issue though and where they want to get moderates is by staking ground on parental rights, and the thing is this is an incredibly thorny issue. What cannot be ignored are the basic statistics and risks for trans youth that things like Florida's Don't Say Gay Bill are exasperating. I think this quote from the Trevor Project is the most startling... quote:The Trevor Project estimates that at least one LGBTQ youth between the ages of 13–24 attempts suicide every 45 seconds in the U.S. The good news is that just having a family who accepts and affirms your gender identity, expression, and/or sexuality can reduce the chances of a suicide attempt by 50%. This is both an important statistic, but also I think serves a reminder that it cannot just be on families. Even with accepting families there is trauma in not matching the heteronormative narrative that is hurting kids. After the infamous North Carolina bathroom bill, President Obama gave guidance on gender inclusion in schools. While the Trump administration walked this back, a lot of places were indeed reformed and remain reformed. Here is an example of New York City's gender inclusion guidelines for school for example. Where we are going to hit issues and I think where you're going to start to hit narratives from Conservatives of evil liberal schools gone mad is how we treat students who are queer, but not out at home. Sexuality was often something that was easy for a teacher to accept, but not talk towards although conservatives seem to want to turn teachers into narcs on gay kids. When it comes to gender however, affirming students often requires acknowledging pronouns, not deadnaming someone, and creating accessibility to bathrooms. The reality is there are kids who do not feel safe being out with their parents, and I will tell you from experience this creates a bind where a child does request that they be deadnamed and misgendered when speaking to parents while having the gender identity recognizes in school. This is of course correct, and many places like NYC with strong teacher unions and clear guidelines will protect teachers to a degree, but it's this dynamic that I think fuckers like DeSantis want to zoom in on. The idea that a kid is secretly plotting their gender identity behind their kids' backs when the reality is that teachers are trying their best to ensure kids don't kill themselves in the face of abusive and unloving parents. And it's one of the areas that I think the Conservatives can really strike hard. A lot of the progress we've seen on LGTBQIA+ rights, sometimes supported by Conservative judges is rooted in the equal protection clause and Title IX which do not really speak to the safety of a child, privacy, or what is frankly a public health concern. As a trans educator moving from the safety of NYC to a bit of a lefty island in North Carolina, my ability to protect children or even teach as myself is very limited by where I live.
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Apr 12, 2022 16:08
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A big flaming stink posted:whats truly beyond the pale is that even the delegates that claim to be supportive of trans people refuse to name names on which delegates voted against this in committee I think what's incredibly frustrating though is that trans folks make up such a small part of the population, giving us money for gender affirming procedures is like financially meaningless. Currently out trans people are currently .6% of the whole US population. Not an insignificant number, but there is a reason why the majority of Americans don't personally know a trans person. Even among the LGTBQIA community--which is mostly made of people who identify as bi and cis--we only make up 11% of the population. Numbers are of course wonky because 15% of Gen Z identifies as queer compated to 5.6% of the whole population and we can assume if were to correct for clear biases that tend to sway people against coming out(Being assigned male, religious and political pressures), we'd see a much bigger number. We'd be looking at more, but regardless, a couple million people distributed across a giant rear end country with a population of over a quarter billion is nothing. Governments have lost the money required to give equitable affirmative care by mistake.
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Apr 14, 2022 03:28
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some plague rats posted:Genuine question: are we actually treating sapiosexuality as an actual orientation now...? Please remember that people also challenged that bisexuals are just confused gay people or needy straight ladies, or people arguing that asexual folks had no place in pride. Dismissing a sexuality often ends up being the wrong move in the end. If the word makes sense to the person who cares. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 12:00 on Apr 14, 2022 |
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Apr 14, 2022 11:54
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I think on a national level, we are in a little bit of a bind: -Courts have been relatively kind to us, but mostly rooted in Title IX and equal protection which doesn’t speak to issues like the Don’t Say Gay law or the general public health crisis we see for trans people. -On a legislative level, one party tolerates us at best and the other can barely stop Jim Crow from being resurrected. I think there are a lot of things that can happen on a local level though especially when it comes to counties and school boards. I think a lot of it comes from pushing for intersectionality. Queer Justice can never exist without racial justice, but we also need to stop allowing monsters to lay claim to religion. My son is going to a daycare run by Christians and the lady who runs it told me in her heavy southern accent that if an employee ever misgenders me to tell her immediately. A friend of mine who is trans found one of her biggest champions in her brother in law who was a Catholic priest. Our enemies want to isolate us, and I think the way we win is by fighting against that. We need to show up. We need to make sure that we’re building community connections and we not to cede ground. At the end of the day there is one side that has no problem with kids killing themselves and there is a side that wants to protect kids. And I think that is a message that resonates with people when they understand.
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Apr 15, 2022 15:45
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I think one thing I try to keep in mind as an educator is how far we’ve come. There is still tons of homophobia and transphobia that you see in kids, but honestly most of the children I teach would never even imagine saying some of the poo poo my friends used to say when I was a kid. V fixed before DeSantis sees my poor word choice there :P v Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Apr 16, 2022 |
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Apr 16, 2022 12:53
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How are u posted:I've got a question: do people qualify as part of the movement simply if they're not straight, or do they need to want to be in some way? When we say LGBTQIA+, we generally mean a loose affiliation of people whose sexuality and gender identity does not conform to the heteronormative and gender binary narrative, and are thusly at risk and marginalized. And let's be clear, that level of marginalization is an incredibly tricky thing. There are people who are bi or pansexaul but in monogamous relationships with a partner of the opposite sex. There are trans folks who have different financial or healthcare access that makes passing easier. And most importantly, our Black trans and nonbinary siblings are constantly being disproportionately murdered. And within that, you have inverse gatekeeping with people not being queer enough or gay enough and that's always lovely. We have to acknowledge privilege because it does exist while also not locking people out. But, and I think this is the most important thing, the gender binary and heteronormativity are not just things that hurt queer people. As far as I know, my father is a cis and straight guy. As far as I know, his mother was cis and straight. They were both terrorized by my grandfather because of the gender roles he pushed in the home. For my grandmother, she couldn't have a job and was meant to stay home while he drank and stepped out on her. For my dad, he was treated as a pussy and a loser because he didn't want to be a cop. I remember my dad explaining to me how he made sure that he knew how to cook and sew because my grandfather didn't know how to do those things. To him, his wife was his caretaker while he got to do whatever he wanted. My grandfather saw this as making him strong and a man. My dad saw it as making him a baby. My dad may not have rejected the word that was given to describe his gender identity, but he sure as gently caress rejected what he was being told it meant to be part of that gender. He chose a better and more healthy way to express being a man. The point being--and I say this as a trans person who willingly moved to semi-rural town in North Carolina-we cannot ignore the practical realities that some of us have different experiences because of our sexuality and gender identity and how those interact with our class, race, etc, especially those of us who are statistically in danger. But we need to name the enemy. The strict enforcement of a heteronormative gender binary is an evil that impacts everyone, not just queer people. We're all in this. I would say though that one of the most informative things I've heard was a Black educator explain her view that white people don't get to call themselves allies. They can just try their best to be one, and I think that's a position I'd expect of cis and straight people as well.
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Apr 22, 2022 03:10
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Yeah, I feel ya Sharkie. I feel like some days I really want to be trans Jesus and do my best to help people come to understand. And then other days I just want to be a total bitch about it. Part of my openness about talking about my body comes from having to speak to my experience so much at work, better me than children though. Anyway, some gender and sexuality news. BEEP BEEP BEEP BOOP. A Huge piece of poo poo professor got a $400,000 payout for refusing to refer to a student as a woman. Short version: He refused to refer to a student by her correct gender, got the smackdown from the school, courts told him to gently caress off, Republican judiciary panel decided differently, the college decided to just throw money at it and settle I think the story is interesting in a few levels because one: --I am really, really loving glad the college didn't fight it. Settling means the only precedent that he professor has is that he can sue, not that he was in the right. --He did make some bullshit attempts: quote:Meriwether asked if referring to all students by their self-identified gender, and including a disclaimer in his syllabus that noted he was only doing so under “compulsion”, would comply with the university’s policies, which he was told would not. The latter is interesting because I do have co-workers who do that. I made the very revolutionary change of my assigned name of Joe to Jo, so some people avoid using my pronouns and the Mx title. Honestly, when I first read the article I assumed that one of these bullshit attempts by him is what led to the settlement, but nah... quote:However, in 2020, a three-judge panel from the sixth US circuit court of appeals ruled that Meriwether is allowed to sue the school, writing in a 32-page opinion: “Traditionally, American universities have been beacons of intellectual diversity and academic freedom. They have prided themselves on being forums where controversial ideas are discussed and debated. And they have tried not to stifle debate by picking sides.” And this is just blatantly bullshit. I would actually not argue that a professor be fired for taking a pro-binary stance as long as he respected trans and other nonconforming people. But this is clearly a form of sexual harassment, and trans people are a protected class. So, loving bullshit. In better news, huge loving get for team non-binary. We're really getting things done as an organization and improving our roster. quote:Janelle Monáe, the Grammy-nominated performer, actor and author, has confirmed that they identify as nonbinary in interviews tied to their new book. Miss Broccoli posted:IIRC jews had 5 societal genders at one point? I'm not 100% on that one I will be very honest, I get really worried as a white lady about utilizing non-Western cultures as rhetorical tools, not that you're doing that but just speaking to my own anxieties. I find stuff like female-husbands and two-spirit identities REALLY interesting, but I also know that they're not a 1:1 parallel to modern identities, some of the history of this stuff unfortunately gets obscured, and in general I get concerned about my own biases railroading cultures that I don't understand and that my ancestors were cruel towards. On that note, The Prophets is a REALLY interesting novel and worth a read that essentially posits heteronormativity as a tool of white supremacy.
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Apr 22, 2022 21:34
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Craptacular! posted:I consider myself gay and was supportive of the 2000s LGBT movement, but the whole "destroy the gender binary" aspect that has emerged in the 2010s hasn't really clicked with me. I admit up til now I have been, in my own head but not in public, one of those folks who thinks that because almost nobody saw these labels being used offline for the past thirty years before insular queer Tumblr communities, that they must have been incubated by online sociologists in those communities and have no scientific backing to them, and have been skeptical of it's validity because I didn't want to let touchy-feely Tumblrites define what truth is to me. --Sexual characteristics are indeed facts which I think makes pivoting to conversations of animals wrongheaded. Nobody is questioning the reality of people's bodies, just how we express the meaning behind those realities both personally and in a broader sense. But more broadly, are there animals that have circumcisions? Are there animals that cover their breasts? Are there animals that cut their hair and wear wigs when they mate? Even if we bought into the gender binary, human beings are unique. We do things to express being male and being female that are not biological imperatives, but develop and exist within cultures to express concepts of gender. So, while there are animals with fluid sexual characteristics, atypical biological roles, or more than two sexes, it's a bit irrelevant. Even if all animals were genuinely 100% male and female and had boring missionary sex to procreate, we know that even outside of queer people, humans are different in terms of their relationship to their sexual characteristics. All animals have some relationship to sex, just like all animals eat and die. But human beings create social constructs and identity and make choices in how we interpret and interact with these facts of life in a way our fellow animals for the most part, do not do. --To clarify with the gender binary, the goal is not to destroy the concept of men and women--well at least I think for most people. Pragmatically, I think if you run the simulation of mankind a million times, penises and vaginas are different. We probably always end up with this key dichotomy of male and female and masculine and feminine. But this isn't a discussion of sexual characteristics, but gender identity and gender expression. When you create a strict binary you exclude people who for biological reasons or identity reasons do not cleanly fit into those buckets, but for even with the people who do identify within the binary or are cis, you often generate expectations of what it means to be part of their gender without essentialism. The goal of moving beyond the gender binary is for people to feel free to identify and express themselves in the way that best fits them and to not mistake a culturally created construct as a given. And it's not a super-online idea. It's literally the Supreme Court's basis of striking down the gay marriage bans. Justice Kennedy posted:The Constitution promises liberty to all within its reach, a liberty that includes certain specific rights that allow persons, within a lawful realm, to define and express their identity.
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Apr 26, 2022 03:17
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For what it's worth, I think that it's okay to allow yourself to admit who you're attracted to without fear of being shallow or petty. I think with queerness, there is this weird all or nothing attitude often pushed by conservatives. We saw it in the 20th century and probably even now, how gay people were treated as sex monsters who wanted to be into EVERYone of the same gender, and not just a select people who happen to be part of the same gender. With trans people though, I think there is a view that when Caitlyn Jenner is on a magazine, that being attracted her to is being demanded of them. And like, I'm not particularly attracted to Caitlyn Jenner--even if she wasn't an rear end in a top hat, and that's fine. But you can call Caitlyn Jenner pretty while also not wanting to have sex with her and definitely without being a huge rear end in a top hat about it. It's also okay to have a genuine aversion to some sexual acts. I think there are also broader issues of how specifically many men interact with women they don't want to have sex with though. EDIT: I edited my OP because I didn't intend to really cheerlead being sapiosexual rather than give an example of something, but I don't think that came off when it's hanging with being ace or bi which are things being more broadly experienced. And I think it's lead to arguments that are interesting, but as mentioned not representative of some of the bigger issues faced by the LTBQIA+ community mostly made up of people who identity as bi or pan. I'll also name, I've only been with one person while coming out as trans, and before that dated women while presenting as a man with some play with boys. And I honestly don't really label my sexuality at all outside of generally knowing that I like feminine people. So, if anyone has amendments they'd like me to make to the OP regarding sexuality, I can definitely add onto it because it was something I was writing from a more clinical viewpoint. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Apr 26, 2022 |
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Apr 26, 2022 18:31
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I think that we also need to not talk about sex in such clinical terms. The reality for most people is that we're all not actually hooking up with as many partners as TV would like it to make it seem, not queer people, but just people in general. Most people are only having sex with a handful of people, and have probably just made out with many more people. I once again don't think people having an issue with hooking up with certain genitals is an issue, but I've also played with dudes when I was younger without that ever really coming into play. And that is all to say, it's fine to not want to mess with specific junk, but when someone has a very strong reaction or dismisses the attractiveness of someone altogether because of their junk, I think you have to start questioning is this preference or internalized trans/homophobia/misogyny. I think part of the problem with the dominant heteronormative narrative is that it forces people to find some goldilocks zone of the right amount of sex. You can't have TOO much sex or you're a slut, but you can't also not want to have sex or very rarely have sex or because then you're a weirdo. It's a game with no winning. And I think there are probably loads of people pressured into sex they don't like to just be normal. I think when it comes to trans people and the preference of genitals, we have to sort of demystify things and thing in terms of shared experience. From my experience, there are gay dudes who don't like anal. There are cis people who find oral to be gross. There are people uncomfortable with big penises or unfulfilled by small penises. I think there are more people than we know who enjoy making out a lot more than actual penetrative sex. And that's all fine and that's all normal. Yeah, it sucks to be dumped because you're uncircumcised or to feel like a shallow jerk to break up with someone who doesn't like something important to you in bed, but it is what it is. As trans people though, I think that there is a general consensus amongst a lot of folks that we need to telegraph our genitals to people even if we're not at the par where anyone's underpants are coming off. What happens in the bedroom is always a tricky game if you're going to click, but for trans folks, if our junk or past junk doesn't past muster, for a lot of people, it's like we're tricking them. So, yeah, its fine for cis dudes to not wanna bang me--right back at ya--but I think it's worth checking where that comes from, and the magnitude of the rejection matters. And I think it's worth considering the pressure that is put upon trans folks.
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Apr 27, 2022 16:25
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[Double Post]
Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 27, 2022 |
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Apr 27, 2022 16:25
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Obviously the source is problematic, but to add two cents: --Unless you are very, very wealthy, there are legitimately limits to what hormone therapy and even bottom surgery can do if you've already gone through puberty. Something the paper doesn't really tend with. Getting access to hormone therapy as early as possible is a huge difference from transitioning well into adulthood. I'm a generally feminine person in a lot of ways--soft features, high voice, full head of hair, shorter, not overly muscular--but my hair and clothes have to do a lot of the work of communicating I'm not a dude. Even if you get top surgery to gain breasts, the typically wider male chest will tend to make the breasts appear a bit different than someone who didn't go through male puberty. Observing that trans adults who get surgery or go through therapy still feel lovely is definitely not a slam dunk on... I don't actually know the point the author is trying to make besides vaguely making GBS threads on trans people. --There is absolutely evidence that living in a more nurturing and affirming environment helps, but it's not a silver bullet. Being trans just genuinely is a kind of traumatizing experience. Here is another paper that lists various interventions from studies across the US, Europe, and primarily Canada.
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Apr 27, 2022 18:17
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smug n stuff posted:Looking at the blog post thing, it looks like a key error is that the version that user Twelve by Pies heard was that Swedish trans people commit suicide at a higher rate than trans people elsewhere. The study shows that Swedish trans people are more likely to commit suicide than Swedish cis people, for the reasons posters have discussed. There's no comparison to suicidality elsewhere. You might have a country where things are so restrictive that trans people kill themselves without ever coming out, so they wouldn't count towards the statistics.
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Apr 28, 2022 01:50
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Minera posted:The Canadian Census recently included an option for ticking trans or non-binary gender options, and apparently the make up with that is about 1 in 300 people is trans and/or non-binary. I haven't seen a good break down of the information as a comparison to population by province or total population or urban vs rural areas etc, but I imagine people will be using those numbers for a good deal of studies now. -Being assigned male -Being religious -Being politically conservative -Being older The total queer population in the US is 5% but closer to 20% among younger generations.
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Apr 28, 2022 12:44
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Craptacular! posted:This is gonna sound kind of like I never developed empathy, but a certain number of teenagers die every year, and some of them are queer. Proportionally how many of them are queer, I haven’t seen any details to see how it aligns with the general population. If you are not informed about a specific fact then please ask or do some quick research rather than make an assumption or extrapolate from a place of lack of knowledge. Please don’t make this mistake again and feel free to PM before positing is you’re unsure how something might come out. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Apr 29, 2022 |
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Apr 28, 2022 23:59
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I went for a period where I was in the mindset that if I could magically look like Kristen Stewart I would, but because I could never look like Kristen Stewart or deal with the maintenance of bottom surgery, I might as well just quietly live as a man. And my big regret with that is that while I've been proud of coming out and living as my true self, I did so after already being married, in the middle of a pandemic, and on the verge of having a child. I had so many amazing friends, and I just wish I could travel back in time and be my true self with them. I do think the main thing I realized after transitioning is how exhausting it is trying to pass. You have no idea until you stop, how much effort you're putting into not being your true self. I just remember breaking into tears because I realized how much mental effort I was putting into pretending.
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Apr 29, 2022 21:40
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Craptacular! posted:I suffered harassment yes, but I had the privilege of mostly supportive parents (maybe not by today's standards, they took the Don't Say Gay approach until I was 12) and was also a huge coward so no matter how down I felt I kept trudging along. I know LGBT kids are more at risk, remember the It Gets Better stuff from 15 years ago, but as an older millennial myself thought that millennials were being better parents about this poo poo than Xers and Boomers were, especially since someone had just suggest that as many as 1/5th of the kids of today identify with some sort of queer label. Given the security of the closet back then, I didn't know if the numbers I heard a decade ago were still accurate. But you also gotta remember there are tons of fifty year olds out there raising teenagers. I think you're overestimating how progressive a lot of the population is (Only 54% of Democrats actively support trans rights), but we also have older generations doing child rearing. EDIT: It's also worth remembering that with the 1 in 5 statistic that 1) Just because they identify a certain way doesn't mean they are out. 10% of the entire students of my school have attended our GSA events, but very few are out to their families. 2) The vast majority of people who identify as LGTBIA+ are cis and bisexual, so they might be taking part in heteronormative relationships and not acting on their broader attractions. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 30, 2022 |
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Apr 30, 2022 01:23
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Craptacular! posted:It might be a little closer than you think? The American Medical Association is not a leftist organization historically (see also: Reagan UHC scaremongering 60 years ago), but last year reccomended removing sex from birth certificates. And that angered the usual suspects.
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Apr 30, 2022 03:46
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Miss Broccoli posted:You're already trans, you just don't think current technology would satisfy you. Cis people don't say this. EDIT: To clarify, I think the broader discussion of if one can be cis and still desire to be another gender can probably be discussed, but it shouldn't be personal and we shouldn't be prescribing. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Apr 30, 2022 |
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Apr 30, 2022 12:39
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I think speaking as the IK and OP, transphobia is not allowed here. lovely circular arguments are not allowed. To give some transparency, I get messaged when someone reports something and flip up the page on my phone randomly. I genuinely don't want to shut down conversation and make people afraid to post here, but obviously the discourse in the Sports thread was not working and the mod team from my communication with them seems to recognize that. Please PM directly if you think there is a poster who is not acting in good faith or has a past history that makes you uncomfortable. I bailed from the sports thread to make this one because that thing was a poo poo show, so please trust that I will try to keep this space safe as best I can. And if I fail at that then gently caress me. I do think discussion is actually going pretty strong here and kinda pushed against being an IK because of that. And the mod team was like, "Well ya know... just in case..." So, I think for now let's focus on the good conversation being had, and I am around if it all goes to poo poo.
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May 1, 2022 04:50
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It's also really worth remembering that some of the people who feel the biggest impact of being trans are the ones with least access to expression. My wife and I are solidly middle class, but the pink tax is real and transitioning has costs. I think this line of discussion originally came from discussion of current technology and where it might grow, but the reality is that a lot of the people who can really put in to present more fully and pass as women (who have gone through male puberty) are usually more well off.
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May 2, 2022 14:54
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BigRed0427 posted:Help! I somehow ended up on Buck Angel's twitter page and I can't look away! --Was confused --Googled "Buck Angel explained" --Got to the part where his ex-wife left him for one of the Matrix directors who she was domming. Is the short end he's a trans pornstar who uses transexual and has weird opinions about transitioning?
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May 2, 2022 19:45
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I was earnestly considering for a bit not ever coming out as trans or whatever I was. My wife was fine with who I was and it was whatever. And the prospect of having a kid really broke me with that. The idea of not being my true self to my child, lying by omission, and not being proud of yourself pushed me. And I realized I had already been working with queer kids at school--I had already been the teacher kids came out to because kids be wise. When I came out, I didn't really know how far I wanted to transition or go with any of this, or even fully what words I wanted to use. But I couldn't hide what it was. And I think for me the thing was that it was never about become a woman or becoming trans. It was just about being and honest and becoming myself. Alito's goes on some naval gazing tangents that leave the door open for sodomy laws and gay marriage bans down the line. quote:Furthermore, the draft decision mentions the case of Obergefell v. Hodges by name -- twice. While not an immediate threat, it's worth remembering that many of our victories like the right to choose have been through the courts, and we should remember how fragile that is. Anyway here is also a fun story about a bi BYU student who flashed a pride flag sewed into her gown at her graduation. While I'm not Christian, I do think it is important when Christian allies and members take back the ground and remind folks that spirituality does not need to belong to bigots.
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May 4, 2022 01:00
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A heads up that today Alabama’s law banning gender affirming care for minors goes into effect. While it is easy to just dunk on Chuds, this will certainly make it more likely for children to harm and even kill themselves.
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May 10, 2022 00:33
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Right now, I think when it comes to LGTBQIA+ stuff, the Court is basically about reading the tea leaves on if Gorsuch is feeling more like a Libertarian or an Originalist that day. It is worth remembering the court gave us a big victory. But with over-turning Roe, it's hard to imagine the Court telling states they can't bar any medical procedures or treatments. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:39 on May 13, 2022 |
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May 11, 2022 02:56
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I'm getting kind of tired of people who sort of give their trans ally bonafides before going BUUUUUUT. The issue is that I think they push other folks who take part in discrimination into parody and don't realize there have always been people saying things like, "Hey, live and let live, gay people can do what they want, but I don't want my kid knowing about it and marriage is between a man and a woman...," "Hey, I respect women, but there are just some things better left for a man and I think that's common sense," "Hey, I have no issue with Black people, but why are they coming to my school/using those names/wearing those clothes/speaking like that/etc." So as long as they're not a screaming bigot, they are not themselves a transphobe or capable of transphobia. And I do think that there genuinely are potential allies who are confused who need guidance even if it is tiring to be in a constant state of leading a TED Talk on gender to just exist. But then you have someone like Ben Shapiro who actively weaponizes this. He'll use his supposed Libertarian beliefs as a smokescreen. "Hey, I have no problem with adults saying they're trans or transitioning but [Insert Ben Shapiro literally spending the past decade spreading misinformation like misinterpreting data, misinterpreting the DSM 5 to make it sound like being trans is still a mental illness, restating the findings of incredibly flawed and unreplicated studies as fact, purposefully leading a misinformation campaign against the pretty well established social, psychological, and medical methods of combatting gender dyshrhopa]." Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 14:43 on May 13, 2022 |
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May 13, 2022 13:20
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doingitwrong posted:None of the language-like noises that precede "but" contain meaning. I think part of the problem is people like Chapelle, Rowling, or Shapiro will sometimes retreat to this place of "Look I'm just telling you where I'm coming from" and ignore both their position of power as well as the fact that they're not some dumpy uncle stumbling into a conversation with their trans niece, they're public figures who literally won't stop loving talking about trans people.
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May 13, 2022 15:38
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OwlFancier posted:The common one that really weird me out is "how can you be in a monogamous relationship, you'll always want to cheat with the gender you aren't with" The reality is for the population that has sex we’re all kind of doing similar stuff regardless of gender, gentials, and sexuality.
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May 14, 2022 15:27
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I think that it is fair to call out discriminatory use of they/them. Something similar came up in the recent case of the American professor who eventually got a big settlement for refusing to correctly gender a student and was penalized. One of his compromises was to simply not refer to the student's gender or pronouns at all, but the issue is that as long as he is referring to other students by he or she, he's specifically targeting one specific student. But I think having a generalized default gender neutral term is genuinely helpful in language, and they/them is the closest we have although it would probably be preferable if we could universally adapt a singular one.
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May 14, 2022 22:36
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I am sure that Bill Maher has no love here, but he dropped the mask and gone full terf after hosting people like Peterson and Shapiro. Highlights: --Mocks the ACLU for listing LGBTQIA+ people as being listed as being disproportionately affected by the Supreme Court's potential ruling against Roe, implying that this isn't about queer people. As a trans parents with a pansexual wife, bullshit. Also note that extreme fetal life advocates could possibly make IVF more difficult down the road. --He then claims we are experimenting on children --He correctly claims that Finland and Sweden have changed their recommendations for adolescent trans care from the Dutch Method, but both decisions are rooted in questionable concerns of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphasia, a non-recognized condition that is rooted in an incredibly flawed study in which the researched parents through anti-trans websites --Seems to falsely imply puberty blockers impact fertility which I believe is him compounding puberty blockers with hormone therapy --Champions Irreversible Damage, a TERF book that pushes the idea of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria with little citation, backup, and also makes the same mistake as the original study by relying heavily on interviews with parents. --Then mocks the NYC Pride Parade for having a trans male Grand Marshal and for not having a gay male marshal. --Falsely implies that genital surgery is regularly being recommended for children. Most guidance pushes 17 and 18 to be the earliest that bottom surgery should be considered along with estrogen and testosterone not being administered until 14 and 15 and even then with a lot of caveats. To be clear, as an educator and someone who works with queer youth, I absolutely want more research, debate, and clear guidance on how to support our queer, trans, and questioning children. But Maher here is laking Ben Shapiro talking points--he literally steals a Ben Shapiro joke which should make you want to quit comedy in shame--for Liberals which is the reason that this clip scares me so much. I don't think this thread should be for example dunking on every time JK Rowling says something stupid, but this feels different to me. While Rowling is a liberal who is a transphobe, I think the fact that being a transphobe is now like her full time job makes her seem weird to even people who agree with her. Maher on the other hand, I believe does speak to a mainstream Moderate-Liberal audience and is a known political commentator. Maher is mainstreaming an incredibly flawed, poorly research, and dishonest book along with the underlying belief in ROGD that has no support from the medical and psychiatric community, and is then doing the same exact goal shifting Shapiro has done for the better part of a decade--frame the debate as one side being unthoughtful and unscientific while you perpetrate untruths. Also, the clip is ten minutes long, and just keep in mind that statistically according to the Trevor Project, ten queer kids will have attempted suicide during the duration of that video. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 02:12 on May 23, 2022 |
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May 23, 2022 01:30
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I think in this specific video, he’s coating his transphobia with concern about women and gays which is what made it feel TERFish to me. Irreversible Damage also portrays a specific strain of TERF thinking which is that our general misogyny as a society is driving young girls to hate themselves and become trans in a desperate need to find an in group. The fact that he loops around to also sounding like Peterson or Shapiro is a feature not a bug of TERF logic.
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May 23, 2022 12:33
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:Due to having no sexual preference for men or for women I thought I was bi for my entire life up until Jan. 2020 when I learned that actually, I am functionally the opposite, I am ace (and I am also forever grateful to Julias and to you, Liquid Communism! for telling me that this is an orientation that is real and exists). Unfortunately this means I am twice-over excluded from the greater LGBTQ community But one thing that I am seeing anecdotally--although there is some research to back it up--is a parallel acceptance of neurodivergent people is also happening. It's obviously slow, and we've seen it weaponized, but the fact that we're accepting that cis girls can be autistic at similar rates to their peers is huge, and I think it's easier for people to not feel alone. While trends don't speak to individual experiences, there definitely is a higher prevalence of autism in both ace and trans community. And I feel like we are going to see the community really led by people who feel very different thank exclusionists like Dan Savage. Even if I had been comfortable with my gender, I think I would have been afraid to do a Pride group when I was in school. It was a lot of richer and kinda catty kids. Right now, the GSA I sponsor in my school is all just goofy and welcoming dorks who want to draw anime characters.
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May 23, 2022 19:14
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I do think that one thing that the LGBTQIA+ movement struggles with is how closely our experiences are connected with cosmopolitanism. A tool of queerphobes has been to not attack us directly on moral grounds, but to invoke imagery that ties our experience to rich, out of touch people. The issue is not gay people, it's yuppies who everyone hates. The issue is not trans people per se, but whiny people lecturing you about their pronouns you see. And I think the utopian imagery of corporate pride that abstracts sexual and gender equity into just feeling good about yourself divorces the movement's reality of fighting for very material needs and issues of class, potentially perpetuating the idea that queerness is inherently cosmopolitan or upper-class. I've seen in Leftist circles, for example, queer issues being seen as a sort of detour and distraction despite the fact that a lot of queer people struggle with basic housing, job security, and are interacting with an economy that is fundamentally hostile to their participation. In short, queer people are sometimes rejected as a potential under-class within capitalism despite that being the lived experiences of many of us. And even myself who is financially fine lives in fear of losing my job in our current climate. I don't despise the corporate pride imagery. As dystopian as it is, Macy's having Pride signs might actually make someone who feels alone feel good even if it is grotesque that an uncaring corporation is the thing that has to do that for that person. But I think when we see how someone like MLK gets flattened by capitoa and media, we should always be wary of the longterm effects. My fear being that the real material needs of queer people often get sidelined, and some of the folks who should be our allies fall for that. And I'm not sure if seeing corporations as insurance is the right frame. I don't have confidence for them to have anyone's back when the chips are down. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 03:40 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 03:35
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some plague rats posted:The pinkwashing crap is obviously unbelievably cynical and not to be rude or anything but if you think for a second the corporate world wouldn't scrap it all and start celebrating Bash That loving Queer Month if there was a single dollar more in it for them you're being taken for a ride. It's acceptable because the LGBTQ community is largely harmless to the greater cause of capital, people talk a big game but the second we evolve beyond naming a Twitter account Trans Flags for Killing Cops and saying stupid crap like "our existence is an act of resistance" and start doing anything that might actually threaten capital all the rainbow flags at the Raytheon HQ will vanish like mist in the midday sun and it'll be back to HR-mandated DADT But I also just disagree fundamentally in how you're positioning us in broader society. The US movement was literally started in its modern sense by beating the poo poo out of cops, something many are trying to reclaim and remember. We experience a disproportionate amount of workplace discrimination and harassment. We're twice as likely to be homeless, and even those of us who have access to owning a home face discrimination there. Our medical needs are often ignored to the point that the Government allowed a devastating virus wipe out a good amount of our population. When our activists' corpses are thrown in Lake Michigan, their deaths are a buried also ran story. The poverty rates of trans people is literally 30% higher than the general population, and in general LGTBQIA+ experience 25% higher rates of poverty. If capital is the main driving force in our society, and in that society queer people are faced with an adversarial economy, then how is our fight for equity not a challenge for capital? Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 14:09 on May 24, 2022 |
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May 24, 2022 12:59
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