|
Greetings. It's time for this quarter's feedback thread. Here you can tell us your thoughts on how D&D is going, including answers to questions such as:
You can give feedback in one of three ways. The first is to simply post in the thread. The second, is to PM me your feedback and I'll share it with the other mods. The third is to post in this thread anonymously. To do this, send me what you'd like to be posted in the thread and I'll post it for you. It hopefully goes without saying that if you do this, don't then come and post in the thread normally to agree with yourself. There's not going to be any post timer or hard rule on number of posts. I would just ask that everyone keep in mind everyone who posts in or reads D&D has a stake in its future, so please don't drown out other posters' feedback by posting excessively about your own issue. D&D rules will be a bit relaxed for this thread since we're talking about personal opinions. However, I do ask that everyone still try to be respectful to other users, be honest in how you express your views, and try not to repeat something you've said in the thread already, which goes along with not monopolizing the thread. If you are forumbanned you unfortunately can't participate, but you may PM me to have your forumban reviewed if I haven't done so already.
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 16:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 30, 2024 12:56 |
|
|
First Modding good. Sometimes it feels like issues can be resolved with discussion in PMs rather than just a straight probate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 16:46
|
|
|
Move US Current Events to CCCC. Create new US politics thread. In three months move that thread to CCCC. Repeat
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 16:58
|
|
|
Koos Group posted:
I think it's mostly worked well. I think the sports fairness thread highlights the type of edge case where that policy breaks down. There are simply cases where providing a level playing field grants legitimacy to a position that is not warranted and harms others. tl;dr pretty good all around, but the paradox of tolerance is a thing. Don't be Joe Rogan.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 17:06
|
|
|
You suck poo poo and gently caress you babboon fucker
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 17:52
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:You suck poo poo and gently caress you babboon fucker Noted.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 18:04
|
|
|
You should definitely moderate positions. Just be explicit. Mods often want to hedge by saying that some outrageous poster is causing too many reports or being too much of an rear end in a top hat, but it's okay to say "discussing if the Holocaust was real is not welcome in this forum" or even "informing us that full communism is better lies outside the scope of this particular thread."
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 18:08
|
|
|
woozy pawsies posted:You suck poo poo and gently caress you babboon fucker Will the senator yield?!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:06
|
|
|
It's still better than before. I do think there's a lot of rather empty restatements of known facts posted as thought they are refutations, and at times full of condescension as though these facts are not already the premise of arguments being made. And I don't even just mean this week. And generally it seems like length related to the above leads to bias in moderation. Many times where nothing new is said but a short reply is whapped. I do not attribute this to anything other than good faith confusion of length and effort or "showing your work".
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:12
|
|
|
Length absolutely still gets confused got effort. Long posts that say nothing are much safer than short posts that don't say enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:16
|
|
|
Wrong thread hooray
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:18
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:It's still better than before. I do think there's a lot of rather empty restatements of known facts posted as thought they are refutations, and at times full of condescension as though these facts are not already the premise of arguments being made. And I don't even just mean this week. And generally it seems like length related to the above leads to bias in moderation. Many times where nothing new is said but a short reply is whapped. I do not attribute this to anything other than good faith confusion of length and effort or "showing your work". Yeah, and even then some of the probes seem capricious Here's a reply for which I was probated while the post to which I was responding was left alone:  I'm baffled as to what effort was contained in the original post that I was compelled to meet, and failed. A lot of the probations are given pretty subjective reasons, which are still at times used as ideologic cudgels. Examples: “Undignified” “Not meeting effort with effort.” “Posting in bad faith” “Not acknowledging everything in the post/responding directly.“ “Not being specific enough in critique for it to be constructive.” “Unsupported” “Things everyone knows already.” “Low-content response.” “Unsubstantiated argument.” “Personal posting.” “Same-oldery” “Condescending” “Referring to D&Ders as ‘ghoulish.’ “ I mean, any of these could be spelled out instead of levied as punishments, and most of them are applied unequally, for what seem to be disagreements, not rules-breaking. Koos, you’ve done as good of a job as someone can with this sordid mess, but I get the feeling that you’re (understandably) burning out at stomping out flaming poo poo in paper bags & instead leaning more toward later saying “I, personally, would not have probated that” after the fact via DM. CommieGIR, you've improved a lot, and appear to no longer engage in hostile convos that blur the lines between mod & poster. Gout Patrol, otoh, while not engaging much seems to be an alt of Handsome Ralph when it comes to lovely probes. "Not just the person you were challenging reported your post" is an appeal to popularity & could likely rest on nothing but the usual suspects' discord swarm. Speaking of usual suspects, maybe once out of 20x the dude who compulsively backseat mods is probated after doing so, and I don't understand why that's the case. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Apr 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:35
|
|
|
Koos Group posted:Greetings. It's time for this quarter's feedback thread. Here you can tell us your thoughts on how D&D is going, including answers to questions such as:
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:
Until anything is done about fanboy posting CE is going to be CE. In the same way we collectively laugh out anyone who would post about how Republicans and conservatives can do no wrong and can only be failed we need to kick out the same posting about any other political flavor. But, that's obviously tougher since we also have a contingent of USPol posters who see it as being a place where you cheerlead your beliefs and stomp out any criticism. Also to finally figure out what level of poo poo posting is allowed. Casual poo poo posting is happily allowed in that thread until some invisible line gets crossed or one group gets angry at the casual flippancy of another group while also wanting to do their own shitposting some times. I guess to summarize that overall, USpol/CE is always going to be a thread where people with different beliefs are going to want to have arguments that involve current events and how they connect to the larger political picture. The best way to moderate that is pushing people to not be idiots and be strict if someone just can't have a productive conversation. Everyone can be criticized and valid criticisms and comments need to both be made and accepted and if you can't do either of those I don't think it's going to add to the sort of environment people claim to want in CE. Or just make it a casual news feed like some posters want and anything but milquetoast explanations are not allowed. I know it also gets argued a lot that lurkers use it as a news feed and the thread should be currated towards that. Honestly, I kind of like this one. Protect the forums by taking away the Americans soapboxes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 19:54
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:Yeah, and even then some of the probes seem capricious That's because your post was reported, and the original wasn't. If it had been, I probably would have hit it. Willa Rogers posted:A lot of the probations are given pretty subjective reasons, which are still at times used as ideologic cudgels. Examples: Since almost all of those are reasons I myself have used in probations, I'll explain how they derive from the D&D rules. One thing I should have made more clear, and I've had to explain a few times privately, is what "personal posting" means. If you are an expert in a certain field and talking about your experience with it, that is valuable. If you have had something happens to you that shows how a general principle that's being talked about can work, or gives an exception to something that's supposed to be universal, that is valuable. If you make a post simply stating that you like or want something, that would be considered uninteresting because it's can't be generalized into knowledge anyone can use, and is solely about you. That's what I mean by overly personal posting. I'll try have more detailed probation reasons if this comes up again. Several others there, such as "same-oldery" and "things everyone knows already," are also running into D&D's rules against posts being interesting. As I say in the rules thread, if you post something that people will find repetitive and not giving them anything new to consider, that is a violation. This could include points that have been made recently here or very rudimentary arguments that you find everywhere online. As I say in the rules thread, this is indeed subjective, but I feel it's necessary to have discussion that users will consistently find worth reading. If I recall correctly, "undignified" was used for a post that was very hostile and making discussion more difficult in a way I felt was self-evident so it didn't require a detailed probation reason. For the others, it should be fairly clear which D&D rule they're referring to. I can promise you that my probations are made for the sake of discussion and argument quality and without regard to whether I agree with the point being made, because to do otherwise would be to undermine most of what I'm trying to do with D&D. Willa Rogers posted:Speaking of usual suspects, maybe once out of 20x the dude who compulsively backseat mods is probated after doing so, and I don't understand why that's the case. Backseat modding is not explicitly against the rules. While I'd prefer it be kept to a minimum, I don't probate for it unless someone continues doing it to the point of exhausting readers, they're focusing on a specific individual they could just report instead, or there's some other incidental problem. While meta-discussion isn't ideal in terms of how boring it is to readers that aren't interested in D&D's workings, I feel having small bursts of it between feedback threads every once in a while as a pressure release is fine, or at least better than the alternative of people becoming angrier because they're stymied.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:00
|
|
|
Current events is still literally an echo chamber that is basically Dems suck 24/7 or Dems are the fault of everything bad cheerleading. Anything that's current discussion gets drowned out by the exact same argument in a matter of a few posts, and it objectively is worse then it was before because it's even less focused on what's actually going on but instead focused on screaming loudly that *insert thing* is the fault of the libs for not doing *totally unrelated thing* Someone else said it but the push of uspol to cccc didn't happen, it literally just came right back here and is still the same scream about ideology that isnt useful or constructive, especially when you personally keep probing the same people almost daily for the same kind of posts koos. Oh and the trans athlete thread debacle never should have happened, the idea that we need bigoted opinions or they are valued in anyway is disgusting. We don't need both sides in dnd on everything and it absolutely does not encompass LGBT. We wouldn't let outright Nazis or people saying that slavery should come back so that *insert minority* is put in their place to post here, let alone on sa. The idea that we should allow outright toxic opinions is both wrong and causes nothing but problems, and will lead to us attracting even worse people pushing boundaries because of it. UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Apr 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:10
|
|
|
UCS Hellmaker posted:Current events is still literally an echo chamber that is basically Dems suck 24/7 or Dems are the fault of everything bad cheerleading.  This is so clearly not true as to seem like more of the bad faith attempts to assert ideological supremacy via working the refs that lead to Koos being put in charge.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:14
|
|
|
I think moderation is going pretty well, keep up the good work!
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:17
|
|
|
Thanks for the detailed explanations, Koos; I still think that the reasons aren't always evenly applied, and that "someone reported it" isn't enough, on its face, without context of, eg, the post that is being answered. "Posts being interesting" is a particularly subjective metric as well. I had no clue that backseat modding was ok to do and that does give me some perspective, but those are posts I find annoying, not "interesting," especially when the backseat mod is pointing out how often he himself has said the same thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:18
|
|
|
Willa Rogers posted:Thanks for the detailed explanations, Koos; I still think that the reasons aren't always evenly applied, and that "someone reported it" isn't enough, on its face, without context of, eg, the post that is being answered. "Posts being interesting" is a particularly subjective metric as well. Most people find posters who post 2, 3, or 4 times in a row instead of just editing stuff into the original post annoying but they don't run to the mods with it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:46
|
|
|
Koos Group posted:
One thing I did previously enjoy and think should be brought back in the US CE thread is encouraging a single topic that keeps going on for pages/days to be spun off into separate threads. The reason I like this is that if I'm quick scrolling through the posts, especially when it's a lot of slapfights/tedious posts, it makes it a lot harder to find posts about newer topics/events. An easy example of this was how long the Disney/who's at fault/corporate influence topic seemed to drag on for. Another thing would be to maybe make a rule against pivoting away too much from a specific topic? It might be hard to determine that threshold, but I feel like a lot of topics end up going back to the same old dems bad/dems good slapfights (of which, admittedly, I partake in sometimes). Koos Group posted:
Overall I think it's been working out well. Thank you very much for this improvement! The one thing that could be improved is maybe lowering the threshold of bad faith posting, especially when it comes to topics that tend to bring out a lot of bigots. I don't really know if there's a formulaic way to lower that threshold, but I felt like probes should have happened a little sooner in that trans athlete thread. E: Bringing back ramped probations for frequent offenders would be great as well. Kalit fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Apr 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 20:54
|
|
|
US Pol is full of probes that don't often make sense and/or aren't explained at all. It's not even clear what the ground rules are anymore. The effort is meaningless because it hasn't discouraged any of the posting it is apparently meant to address. Once you figure out what the rules actually are and how to explain them, make the minimum probe a week and then see if people either learn to be civil or at last just stop posting. As it is, the thread has never been less useful than it is now. Wrist slaps for soapboxing and pithy clapbacks over issues that often have nothing to do with current events have not reduced them from a daily problem. I'm also hopeful under newer moderation that feedback threads will be listened to, instead of ignored while the mods do what they were always going to do. I don't agree that moderation of D&D is an unsolvable problem, but I see patterns of ineffectual behavior from mods that reinforce the idea that it is. For example, if you tolerate harassment of mods as has happened in the past, the fix is already in and nothing will change.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:09
|
|
|
Half of every single page is probed posts in us CE
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:14
|
|
|
I am at a loss of how to fix this, but d&d has become an utterly terrible place to actually debate and discuss opposing positions. The Ukraine war thread is especially egregious, but this pattern extends far and wide. Unfortunately, you need to go to cspam to talk about opposing viewpoints, and sometimes I want a discussion that ain't shitposty. The fact that moderation dragged their feet on making sure the orgs being donated to weren't supporting neonazis is inexcusable. Goutpatrol is aggressively terrible in their moderation decisions, but the refusal to tolerate dissent seems to be a cultural problem at this point and I have no idea how this is solved.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
I'm not sure CSPAM is known for it's wide variety of viewpoints. But more substantively, do you think Koos' 'moderating argument quality not positions' policy is a sham, or somehow not being enforced well? Willa brought some great examples of her concerns, and I think that lead to a pretty good explication of some of the nuances of the new moderation philosophy. What are some examples of refusal to tolerate dissent?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:36
|
|
|
Arguing from the position that communism is the only moral solution to any problem is tiresome and drowns out actual discussion of real solutions. I should add that this applies to the current events thread. Other threads I don't see as an issue as much. A big flaming stink posted:I am at a loss of how to fix this, but d&d has become an utterly terrible place to actually debate and discuss opposing positions. The Ukraine war thread is especially egregious, but this pattern extends far and wide. Unfortunately, you need to go to cspam to talk about opposing viewpoints, and sometimes I want a discussion that ain't shitposty. C-Spam is not a place that tolerates alternate viewpoints in my experience. D&D seems to allow any viewpoint now, which is its own problem. I understand that not moderating positions makes it easier, but there has to be some limit to that in specific threads perhaps. Lastly, the issue of some posters being incredibly hostile to anything they perceive to be D&D or 'libleral' in other parts of the forums, and that hostility being not only tolerated but encouraged is problematic to say the least.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:37
|
|
|
Make a "Violent Communist Overthrow of the United States: Yea or Nay?" thread and then ban anybody discussing it outside there because that's the only topic of discussion that the usual band of Stalinists will allow anywhere else. Intentionally doing less moderation did not lead to better posting. War crime deniers are not going to re-examine their position after yet another joke sixer. Sixers are just proof that you made the other guy mad enough that they had to go get an adult.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:42
|
|
|
Nameless Pete posted:Make a "Violent Communist Overthrow of the United States: Yea or Nay?" thread and then ban anybody discussing it outside there because that's the only topic of discussion that the usual band of Stalinists will allow anywhere else. Yeah, when a poster is making "FLATTEN" posts about Ukrainian civilians in CSpam why are we supposed to tolerate them in the D&D Ukraine thread? Why is that kind of posting allowed and encouraged at all?
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:45
|
|
|
 I post in both without much issue.Though to be fair in regards to the war threads I generally don't post in either because I find both to be very ghoulish. I do think opinions about the hive mind in cspam are exaggerated though. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Apr 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah, when a poster is making "FLATTEN" posts about Ukrainian civilians in CSpam why are we supposed to tolerate them in the D&D Ukraine thread? It's not encouraged in the cspam thread. It's discouraged.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:53
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:
I post there in a limited fashion as well, but some threads are  The official moderation may not allow it, but the posters certainly seem fine with it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:Yeah, when a poster is making "FLATTEN" posts about Ukrainian civilians in CSpam why are we supposed to tolerate them in the D&D Ukraine thread? That kind of goes beyond this subforum and this feedback thread, unfortunately. Tolerance of that type of person comes from the top, from Jeff.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:54
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I post there in a limited fashion as well, but some threads are Some threads on SA are You new here or something?
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 23, 2022 |
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:55
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Some threads on SA are : yikes: You new here or something? It is a thing that happens, but the whole point of SA is that the  and decent moderation weed most of it out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:56
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:56
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:Also to finally figure out what level of poo poo posting is allowed. Casual poo poo posting is happily allowed in that thread until some invisible line gets crossed or one group gets angry at the casual flippancy of another group while also wanting to do their own shitposting some times. Since shitposting doesn't add to discussion, it's against the rules by default. However, mods will defer punishment if we find it funny or completely harmless. So it's a specific instance of the general rule of SA that you can lightly break rules if it's funny or otherwise good. Gumball Gumption posted:Until anything is done about fanboy posting CE is going to be CE. In the same way we collectively laugh out anyone who would post about how Republicans and conservatives can do no wrong and can only be failed we need to kick out the same posting about any other political flavor. But, that's obviously tougher since we also have a contingent of USPol posters who see it as being a place where you cheerlead your beliefs and stomp out any criticism. I wholeheartedly agree that any organization or ideology should be fair game for criticism if it's relevant. However, people must also be allowed to defend organizations or ideologies if they see the need to as well. Not allowing that would be either some severe and stifling moderation of positions, or prevent discussion entirely, depending on how universal it was. The issue I see is just keeping it good faith over specific points - i.e., if someone makes a fair criticism of something you support that you can't meaningfully counter, you don't try to with some baloney out of a sense of obligation, and likewise if someone explains successfully why your criticism is unfair or doesn't apply, you gracefully accept this rather than saying something to the effect of "well still."
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:58
|
|
|
Heck Yes! Loam! posted:It is a thing that happens, but the whole point of SA is that the ...which the cspam mods did in the case you cited.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
The point of that post was not to start a dnd vs cspam thing, it was to draw attention to how dnd cannot tolerate opposing viewpoints in most of the threads. And hell, I still have no idea how to fix it, it doesn't seem to be a problem with a tidy solution.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
Majorian posted:...which the cspam mods did in the case you cited. A weeklong probe is not a ban, and ironic shitposting is not something we should have to tolerate at all.
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 22:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 30, 2024 12:56 |
|
|
Nameless Pete posted:Make a "Violent Communist Overthrow of the United States: Yea or Nay?" thread and then ban anybody discussing it outside there because that's the only topic of discussion that the usual band of Stalinists will allow anywhere else. That's fine but it will inevitably lead to every criticism of Dems being described as being that. We already regularly see "Can you solve all political issues? No? Then shutup."
|
|
#
?
Apr 23, 2022 22:00
|
|