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D&D ostensibly has mods other than Koos but none of them felt like they were allowed to do anything about rampant transphobia that he ignored for days. Maybe Koos should just be a normal mod and not "head mod"?
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Apr 24, 2022 23:11
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Who What Now posted:D&D ostensibly has mods other than Koos but none of them felt like they were allowed to do anything about rampant transphobia that he ignored for days. Maybe Koos should just be a normal mod and not "head mod"? The other mods removed Sharkie's "eat poo poo" thread so quick that Koos claims to not even have realized it existed.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:12
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Jaxyon posted:This isn't a safe space for trans posters. There are shitposting facebook groups that give less slack to transphobic bigots. They respond to transphobes like you and your team responds to posts critical of yourselves. I like their priorities better. Look honestly you're getting a bit ridiculous here. Dial it back a bit
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Apr 24, 2022 23:15
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Jaxyon posted:The other mods removed Sharkie's "eat poo poo" thread so quick that Koos claims to not even have realized it existed. Maybe we should axe all current mods and install good ones?
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Apr 24, 2022 23:16
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It is extremely weird that apparently the goal of this iteration of D&D in 2022 is to educate bigots, and therefore we must give bigots a space to peddle their ideas so they have the opportunity to be educated. I do appreciate Koos making this goal extremely clear, because it lets anyone not interested in engaging with people within that framework just not participate in the forum anymore. I guess my earlier suggestion that the mods make their vision for the forum clear isn't necessary, because it has been made very clear. It's just not something I'd ever want to be a part of, and I'm not sure who would.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:16
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Cicero posted:It kind of seems like there maybe just needs to be another split, if posters fundamentally differ on what they want from a debate forum. I'm a little bit curious to explore this concept, though I suspect most posters would find more cons than pros with it. If cspam is d&d but for lower stakes poo poo posting, what would a new sub that's like d&d but with strict topic moderation look like? Is there anything to this idea or is it a joke?
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Apr 24, 2022 23:16
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some plague rats posted:Look honestly you're getting a bit ridiculous here. Dial it back a bit How so? Upgrade posted:It is extremely weird that apparently the goal of this iteration of D&D in 2022 is to educate bigots, and therefore we must give bigots a space to peddle their ideas so they have the opportunity to be educated. I do appreciate Koos making this goal extremely clear, because it lets anyone not interested in engaging with people within that framework just not participate in the forum anymore. I guess my earlier suggestion that the mods make their vision for the forum clear isn't necessary, because it has been made very clear. It's just not something I'd ever want to be a part of, and I'm not sure who would. I'm told the forum used to be very Libertarian, and now we have the glorious return to that: A bunch of bad faith sea-lioning where we discuss the lives of incredibly vulnerable minorities in a dispassionate philosophical setting and only get upset if the collegial tone is departed from. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 23:18
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Who What Now posted:D&D ostensibly has mods other than Koos but none of them felt like they were allowed to do anything about rampant transphobia that he ignored for days. Maybe Koos should just be a normal mod and not "head mod"? I don't believe I ever told any of the other mods not to moderate that thread. Jaxyon posted:No, hate speech only is against the rules of the site and not even very strongly: Ah, I was under the impression Jeffrey had added more to the rules than that. Maybe he just said it in some QCS thread. Upgrade posted:It is extremely weird that apparently the goal of this iteration of D&D in 2022 is to educate bigots, and therefore we must give bigots a space to peddle their ideas so they have the opportunity to be educated. I do appreciate Koos making this goal extremely clear, because it lets anyone not interested in engaging with people within that framework just not participate in the forum anymore. I guess my earlier suggestion that the mods make their vision for the forum clear isn't necessary, because it has been made very clear. It's just not something I'd ever want to be a part of, and I'm not sure who would. The goal of current D&D is not to educate bigots, is to have good discussion. When I began modding I believed avoiding moderating positions was beneficial to that goal. I am currently reconsidering it based on feedback.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:21
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Jaxyon posted:How so? No one is organizing harassment campaigns or doxxing or writing legislation or posting threats, there was one thread that was poorly moderated and got gassed. Declaring that makes this "not a safe space for trans people" quite frankly makes it sound like you think we're a bunch of little babies who need to be wrapped in cotton wool so the bad opinions can't hurt us, it's downright demeaning and it would be good if you could stop
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Apr 24, 2022 23:24
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Who What Now posted:D&D ostensibly has mods other than Koos but none of them felt like they were allowed to do anything about rampant transphobia that he ignored for days. Maybe Koos should just be a normal mod and not "head mod"? I queued ban+30s for both Aginor and Trollologist the same day they came into the thread with their bullshit and was going to chain probe until admins got around to processing the queue. Fluffdaddy came in shortly after and perma'd them. I'd have queued permas if I knew that was an option, in the few months I've been on the mod team it usually takes quite a bit of discussion to decide on a perma. edit: Aginor and Trollologist were also both harassing people via PMs.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:25
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Fritz the Horse posted:I queued ban+30s for both Aginor and Trollologist the same day they came into the thread with their bullshit and was going to chain probe until admins got around to processing the queue. Fluffdaddy came in shortly after and perma'd them. I'd have queued permas if I knew that was an option, in the few months I've been on the mod team it usually takes quite a bit of discussion to decide on a perma. Just so I'm clear, you agree that D&D is the place to discuss whether black people have a cranial capacity that makes them fit for slavery, right? some plague rats posted:No one is organizing harassment campaigns or doxxing or writing legislation or posting threats, there was one thread that was poorly moderated and got gassed. Declaring that makes this "not a safe space for trans people" quite frankly makes it sound like you think we're a bunch of little babies who need to be wrapped in cotton wool so the bad opinions can't hurt us, it's downright demeaning and it would be good if you could stop Are you sure about all of that first part? And I'd disagree about calling bigotry and the "you're trans because you did sex crimes" dms just "bad opinions." It's been repeatedly shown that the person who sent those dms is welcome as long as they do the correct debate dance so yeah that does not sound like a welcoming place to me. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 23:26
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some plague rats posted:I do not remember this. Where did this happen? It was one of the D&D feedback threads run by the admins, back when they were trying to get a sense for what the hell was going on in D&D. They're great reads, IMO, if only because it was really funny watching the admins be completely stunned and baffled at the poo poo that passes for normal posting here Oakland Martini posted:A couple of comments/reflections from an old-timer (I'm 37, been here since I was 16) who posts rarely but relies heavily on this forum for news: uninterrupted posted:I don’t think this can be laid at the feet of “bad posters” or whatever. Modern economics as taught at a academic level has been pretty thoroughly refuted in the last 30 year. Athanatos posted:What the gently caress? Way to immediately prove his point 6 minutes after he posted. Eminai posted:Tying economists to cops is not the right track, IMO, but I don't think D&D would be particularly enriched by being more welcoming to economists posting their professional opinion, much like how The Goon Doctor wouldn't be enriched by being more welcome to homeopaths posting their professional opinion. Athanatos posted:D&D is for discussion of opinions?
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Apr 24, 2022 23:27
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Koos Group posted:I don't believe I ever told any of the other mods not to moderate that thread. So why didn't they?
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Apr 24, 2022 23:27
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If a hypothetical new sub appeared that was just d&d with less tolerance for lovely topics that were bait for lovely viewpoints, would there be any value in the current d&d continuing to exist as a "free debate space" where no topic is off limits, or has the forums culture as a whole just moved on?
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Apr 24, 2022 23:28
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Main Paineframe posted:It was one of the D&D feedback threads run by the admins, back when they were trying to get a sense for what the hell was going on in D&D. They're great reads, IMO, if only because it was really funny watching the admins be completely stunned and baffled at the poo poo that passes for normal posting here drat thanks for the link, that's great. What an incredible response
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Apr 24, 2022 23:31
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Sharkie posted:Are you sure about all of that first part? And I'd disagree about calling bigotry and the "you're trans because you did sex crimes" dms just "bad opinions." It's been repeatedly shown that the person who sent those dms is welcome as long as they do the correct debate dance so yeah that does not sound like a welcoming place to me. The person who did that was permabanned minutes afterward, then permabanned a second time after I noticed him, so no, I don't believe it's been shown that he's welcome here.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:32
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Koos Group posted:Ah, I was under the impression Jeffrey had added more to the rules than that. Maybe he just said it in some QCS thread. Don't you think that as a moderator who's quoting the rules, in a discussion about a very serious subject, you should at least know what the loving rules are? Your actions show what level of importance this is to you. And as far as I can see, it's not much. quote:The goal of current D&D is not to educate bigots, is to have good discussion. When I began modding I believed avoiding moderating positions was beneficial to that goal. I am currently reconsidering it based on feedback. It doesn't as much matter what your goal or intent is, what matters is the results and the impact. The results and impact have been you laxly moderating bad faith bigots and strictly moderating their targets. some plague rats posted:No one is organizing harassment campaigns or doxxing or writing legislation or posting threats, there was one thread that was poorly moderated and got gassed. Declaring that makes this "not a safe space for trans people" quite frankly makes it sound like you think we're a bunch of little babies who need to be wrapped in cotton wool so the bad opinions can't hurt us, it's downright demeaning and it would be good if you could stop A "safe space" means "a place or environment in which a person or category of people can feel confident that they will not be exposed to discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm." That is not this forum. It feels like you've internalized the "hugbox" distortion of what a safe space is that bigots promote.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:33
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Jaxyon posted:A "safe space" means "a place or environment in which a person or category of people can feel confident that they will not be exposed to discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm." That is not this forum. It feels like you've internalized the "hugbox" distortion of what a safe space is that bigots promote. Right, because when members of the minority you're speaking for say "hey, can you please stop infantilizing me" the correct ally response is to pull out the loving dictionary and accuse them of doing a ben shapiro
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Apr 24, 2022 23:36
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Main Paineframe posted:Feels like the whole "teaching" aspect of that has been on the decline ever since the Trumpification, though; at some point it seems like we collectively decided that everyone has to already agree with us on these issues and that there's no longer any room to convert those who don't know. "Here's why you're wrong" has been replaced by "gently caress off transphobe" or "mooooooooooooolonge In the general case, it is neither reasonable or viable to require a minority to continuously justify their existence or educate people unwilling to go learn why their bigotry is bigotry when told so. Explaining has been replaced by "gently caress off" because there is only so long anyone can maintain decorum in the face of constant casual bigotry and bad faith questions.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:38
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some plague rats posted:Right, because when members of the minority you're speaking for say "hey, can you please stop infantilizing me" the correct ally response is to pull out the loving dictionary and accuse them of doing a ben shapiro There's also people who are in that group saying "hey we don't want that poo poo here". Quite a few of them, in fact.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:45
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Koos Group posted:The person who did that was permabanned minutes afterward, then permabanned a second time after I noticed him, so no, I don't believe it's been shown that he's welcome here. The point people are making is that their intentions were obvious, they should have been booted from the thread earlier, and should have been punished before they reached the point of PMing users. I understand your moderation goals, and being unbiased on positions, but it quickly leads to situations like this. The Overton window for the forums and the Overton window for the US do not need to overlap perfectly, because the Overton window for the US is loving abhorrent. Not every discussion needs to be tolerated.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:47
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Jaxyon posted:Don't you think that as a moderator who's quoting the rules, in a discussion about a very serious subject, you should at least know what the loving rules are? Your actions show what level of importance this is to you. And as far as I can see, it's not much. The fact that I was operating under the assumption that the rules against bigotry were more stringent is a point in my favor I'd say, but yes, I should have double checked the site rules before referencing them. Jaxyon posted:It doesn't as much matter what your goal or intent is, what matters is the resuslts and the impact. The results and impact have been you laxly moderating bad faith bigots and strictly moderating their targets. The opposite is true. In the trans athlete thread I moderated people who were upset about transphobia and potential transphobia to a much more lenient degree than normal, because it is such a highly charged and personal topic that some slack could be given when getting heated about it.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:48
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Who What Now posted:There's also people who are in that group saying "hey we don't want that poo poo here". Quite a few of them, in fact. There's plenty of others trans posters here, of any of them come along and say "actually I want jaxyon to speak for us and I like how he's doing it" then sure I'll revise my objection
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Apr 24, 2022 23:49
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RealityWarCriminal posted:The point people are making is that their intentions were obvious, they should have been booted from the thread earlier, and should have been punished before they reached the point of PMing users. They were punished before the point of PMing users. They didn't begin until they were no longer able to post. Regardless, your second paragraph is duly noted.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:49
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some plague rats posted:There's plenty of others trans posters here, of any of them come along and say "actually I want jaxyon to speak for us and I like how he's doing it" then sure I'll revise my objection I'm a trans poster and I'm saying that. E: I don't want them speaking for us but I agree with what they're saying.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:55
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some plague rats posted:Right, because when members of the minority you're speaking for say "hey, can you please stop infantilizing me" the correct ally response is to pull out the loving dictionary and accuse them of doing a ben shapiro I try to err on the side of "is this a safe space" and if people are being exposed to calm-hitler and being harassed through DMs, I don't think it's a safe space. That said, you're asking me to stop, so I will. Koos Group posted:The opposite is true. In the trans athlete thread I moderated people who were upset about transphobia and potential transphobia to a much more lenient degree than normal, because it is such a highly charged and personal topic that some slack could be given when getting heated about it. Again, the result is still that you can get away with polite bigotry for far longer than most people have patience to deal with it.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:56
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Koos Group posted:The opposite is true. In the trans athlete thread I moderated people who were upset about transphobia and potential transphobia to a much more lenient degree than normal, because it is such a highly charged and personal topic that some slack could be given when getting heated about it. You gave people who called transphobes transphobes 12 hours or more because they didn't follow  and the transphobes they were calling out sixers.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:58
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Who What Now posted:You gave people who called transphobes transphobes 12 hours or more because they didn't follow The transphobes were permabanned and threadbanned with a longer probie than that, respectively. Edit: Assuming we're talking about the same people.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:00
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Koos Group posted:The transphobes were permabanned and threadbanned with a longer probie than that, respectively. A transphobe at best. The other you defended across multiple threads and continue to defend.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:02
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Jaxyon posted:I try to err on the side of "is this a safe space" and if people are being exposed to calm-hitler and being harassed through DMs, I don't think it's a safe space. Thank you. Being "exposed to calm Hitler" (incredible phrase) is an unfortunate consequence of posting on a debate forum, anyone who doesn't want to encounter lovely debate tactics can post in every other thread on the forum. The two people sending PMs were immediately permabanned, so I'm not sure what else could be done there short of trying to moderate pre-crime? I don't think anything that happened has made this an "unsafe space" in any way, and I can't imagine what the moderation solution would be, having a big list of positions you're not allowed to take? then you're playing whack-a-mole as people try and bait each other into taking them. Banning people from "sealioning" and "calm hitlering"? What would that even look like?
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Apr 25, 2022 00:05
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Koos Group posted:The transphobes were permabanned and threadbanned with a longer probie than that, respectively. After people raised a stink and after people were harassed. An admin had to loving step in some plague rats posted:Thank you. Being "exposed to calm Hitler" (incredible phrase) is an unfortunate consequence of posting on a debate forum, anyone who doesn't want to encounter lovely debate tactics can post in every other thread on the forum. The two people sending PMs were immediately permabanned, so I'm not sure what else could be done there short of trying to moderate pre-crime? I don't think anything that happened has made this an "unsafe space" in any way, and I can't imagine what the moderation solution would be, having a big list of positions you're not allowed to take? then you're playing whack-a-mole as people try and bait each other into taking them. Banning people from "sealioning" and "calm hitlering"? What would that even look like? Ban transphobes. Plenty of other forums handle this fine without people having to explicitly say "I am a transphobe please ban me" some plague rats posted:Aginor and Trollologist were both ban+30d by a d&d mod and then permabanned? Trollogist had a long history of transphobia until we pointed it out in that thread. They should have been permad well before that. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 00:05
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Who What Now posted:A transphobe at best. The other you defended across multiple threads and continue to defend. Aginor and Trollologist were both ban+30d by a d&d mod and then permabanned?
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Apr 25, 2022 00:06
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@cinci zoo sniper Occasionally I see some posts in the Ukraine thread along the lines of "I hope Russian civilians suffer [violent fate]". Are these posts acceptable? They make me uncomfortable, and I would prefer if they weren't.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:07
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some plague rats posted:Aginor and Trollologist were both ban+30d by a d&d mod and then permabanned? Was that D&D mod Koos? E: How many probes calling those two assholes came from Koos?
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Apr 25, 2022 00:08
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Arrhythmia posted:@cinci zoo sniper Bloodthirsty posts have been probated and ridiculed the few times they have happened. Can you post an example of one that didn't get handled?
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Apr 25, 2022 00:08
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Who What Now posted:Was that D&D mod Koos? I was involved in bringing Aginor to the admins' attention. I actually don't remember who Trollologist was. Maybe I'm mixing up them and Internaut!.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:09
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Who What Now posted:Was that D&D mod Koos? Does it matter as long as it got done? Moderation is a team effort, isn't it?
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Apr 25, 2022 00:10
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Koos Group posted:I was involved in bringing Aginor to the admins' attention. I actually don't remember who Trollologist was. Maybe I'm mixing up them and Internaut!. How many placeholders did you give him? E: some plague rats posted:Does it matter as long as it got done? Moderation is a team effort, isn't it? yes, actually, it does matter when the issue is one mod giving transphobes an infinite benefit of the doubt. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 00:10
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Who What Now posted:How many placeholders did you give him? Again, I don't remember, but it was at least long enough to keep him from posting until his perma.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:11
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Arrhythmia posted:@cinci zoo sniper They're not, and have never been. You're welcome to quote any such posts I, son of a Russian mother, have somehow missed for a retroactive special. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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