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The end result from reading this back from the page this started on, seeing that the person who brought it up is still in cat jail and the people they called out are mostly not, is the usual that the people complaining about the problem get punished for breaking decorum or getting too mad to play the stupid debate game more than the people who are the actual problem.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:05
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Cease to Hope posted:I don't necessarily mean a quote, just an example of the phenomenon in practice. Even just a hypothetical one would work. I'm still unclear on the hazard you're trying to avoid. I don't believe that I can provide you with anything more illustrative than what I've already posted. The hazard is a manufactured pretext for a punishable ideological position.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:07
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Miss Broccoli posted:This is a minor point that doesn't change anything else. Koos has a problem with transgender people. This is what I’m referring too specifically where someone dealing with trolls and being dismissed repeatedly gets a little snappy at a mod.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:09
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:This is what I’m referring too specifically where someone dealing with trolls and being dismissed repeatedly gets a little snappy at a mod. I can't help but recall that Average Bear (who's been banned for transphobic poo poo before) got a sixer for trolling the trans sports thread, the same amount of time as the person who pointed out his history of transphobia.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:14
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No, they continually mischaracterized everyone that interacted with them. If you want to say someone made X claim, you should quote them doing it, in context, rather than just saying they did it or post stuff out of context.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:15
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Jaxyon posted:Its going around in circles because you don't want to listen, you're just restating your premise. I've done my best to read, consider and understand the points you've made on this, and responded to a few of them accordingly. It might be that there's some ambiguity in what we mean when we say how harshly we moderate. I'm referring to it in relative terms to the rules, i.e., how swiftly and severely do I punish someone when that person has broken them. And it occurs to me that you may be using moderation not only to refer to how one enforces policy, but the polices themselves. In my sense, based on what the rules were at the time of the thread, I was indeed giving people upset much more leeway than normal, and giving transphobic people harsher punishments than normal. That's what I was trying to communicate. I also recognize that in your sense, what you were saying was logical, because being hostile was against the rules and bigoted positions weren't. Do I understand you now?
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Apr 25, 2022 03:15
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Honestly I feel like the chief failing was that mods didn't close that mess of a thread 20-some pages previous. All of the haggling over probations is talking about how to mitigate the core failure: no mod foresaw how a "Does [minority] deserve the right to [x]" thread was inevitably going to end poorly.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:20
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Cease to Hope posted:Honestly I feel like the chief failing was that mods didn't close that mess of a thread 20-some pages previous. All of the haggling over probations is talking about how to mitigate the core failure: no mod foresaw how a "Does [minority] deserve the right to [x]" thread was inevitably going to end poorly. There were only ever two ways that thread was going to play out: either a bunch of people just posting agreement with the OP until it falls away, or someone coming in with arguments that dehumanize people. There was literally no other outcome I can think of so I tend to agree that if there's any lesson to take away from it at all, it's that a policy that puts that kind of thread to a stop before it starts is worth trying out.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:28
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Cease to Hope posted:I don't necessarily mean a quote, just an example of the phenomenon in practice. Even just a hypothetical one would work. I'm still unclear on the hazard you're trying to avoid. Enforcing a rule against bigotry appears to be what is to be avoided. Or at least, arbitrating what posts are or are not bigotry (which would be how a mod enforces that rule, in my eyes) (USER WAS PERMABANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 25, 2022 03:28
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speng31b posted:There were only ever two ways that thread was going to play out: either a bunch of people just posting agreement with the OP until it falls away, or someone coming in with arguments that dehumanize people. There was literally no other outcome I can think of so I tend to agree that if there's any lesson to take away from it at all, it's that a policy that puts that kind of thread to a stop before it starts is worth trying out. Yeah. I do think it was moderated poorly, and there are some out-and-proud transphobes who just walked off from that mess with a slap on the wrist or nothing, while the people who got mad at them faced worse punishment. That's a fuckup, too. But ultimately, you have CommieGIR posting on the first page "Correct answer, thread complete." That should have been a red flag that it was a bad idea for a thread. Having to permaban the first person obviously using that thread as a fishing pond for trans posters to harass in PMs should also have been a red flag. How did it go on for another week after that? edit: Sharkie posted:Just a reminder that D&D is not safe or welcoming for trans people. give me a loving break. probating that as "Telling people in the trans thread they aren't welcome" is some serious bad-faith bullshit. that is very obviously a descriptive, not a prescriptive statement. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 03:37
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Cease to Hope posted:Yeah. I do think it was moderated poorly, and there are some out-and-proud transphobes who just walked off from that mess with a slap on the wrist or nothing, while the people who got mad at them faced worse punishment. That's a fuckup, too. Yes, you're right. It wouldn't be fair for that to be on her rap sheet. I'll have it changed. Koos Group fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 03:49
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Cease to Hope posted:edit: Koos Group, serious question, are you doing okay? I know you've gotten a lot of pretty harsh feedback around this issue, and it makes sense that it doesn't feel good, but are you like... actually okay, or do you need to take a break? And I genuinely don't mean this as a snide remark. But just consider if the choices you're making right now are the ones you want to wake up to tomorrow. speng31b fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 03:50
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speng31b posted:Koos Group, serious question, are you doing okay? I know you've gotten a lot of pretty harsh feedback around this issue, and it makes sense that it doesn't feel good, but are you like... actually okay, or do you need to take a break? Yes, I'm a bit exhausted and could use a break from this thread. It was slated to end when the weekend does, and there aren't any new issues being brought up or new posters posting, so I'll probably close it in an hour or two. Thank you for your concern.
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Apr 25, 2022 03:55
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Koos Group posted:Yes, I'm a bit exhausted and could use a break from this thread. It was slated to end when the weekend does, and there aren't any new issues being brought up or new posters posting, so I'll probably close it in an hour or two. Thank you for your concern. Closing the feedback thread after you do a pretty deliberate misread to call a user a bigot who called you out for enabling bigots is pretty bad imo It’s the usual cycle of shutting up everyone bringing up the issue and closing all visible avenues to address it besides ignored PMs
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Apr 25, 2022 04:00
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there's got to be a klingon word for the blood moderation feedback ritual
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Apr 25, 2022 04:00
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Koos Group posted:Yes, you're right. It wouldn't be fair for that to be on his rap sheet. I'll have it changed. It's something that would have been very clear from looking at her posting history in that thread. And I'm confident that you did not, because this was her previous post in the thread, earlier today. Sharkie posted:You're right. For the record I am a trans woman, and [etc.] I appreciate you doing something to correct the probation, but this is really frustrating! Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 04:01
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Closing the feedback thread after you do a pretty deliberate misread to call a user a bigot who called you out for enabling bigots is pretty bad imo koos doesnt ignore PMs because hes a total psycho. just look at his response rate in this thread. hes completely out of his mind and will respond calmly to any stupid bullshit anyone wants to say to him
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Apr 25, 2022 04:03
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Koos Group posted:Yes, I'm a bit exhausted and could use a break from this thread. It was slated to end when the weekend does, and there aren't any new issues being brought up or new posters posting, so I'll probably close it in an hour or two. Thank you for your concern. The quarterly feedback thread was supposed to run for 36 hours?
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Apr 25, 2022 04:05
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SMEGMA_MAIL posted:Closing the feedback thread after you do a pretty deliberate misread to call a user a bigot who called you out for enabling bigots is pretty bad imo The thread was intended to be closed at the end of Sunday regardless, Sharkie has already had ample posting in it and was no longer doing so when I probed her, and I'm giving everyone warning. I also never ignore PMs. Cease to Hope posted:It's something that would have been very clear from looking at her posting history in that thread. And I'm confident that you did not, because this was her previous post in the thread, earlier today. Ungh. Apologies, Sharkie. I have a poor habit of assuming people online are male by default, and did not read that post, as I was only looking at the most recent page of the thread.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:06
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Fuschia tude posted:The quarterly feedback thread was supposed to run for 36 hours? It's normally done over a weekend. I was busier than expected on Friday and didn't get it up until Saturday morning.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:07
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Cease to Hope posted:It's something that would have been very clear from looking at her posting history in that thread. And I'm confident that you did not, because this was her previous post in the thread, earlier today. The openly trans person getting 18 and the openly cis who loves to virtue signal saying the same thing and getting nothing gives up the game a bit. Have fun D&D, what a pit.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:13
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Gumball Gumption posted:The openly trans person getting 18 and the openly cis who loves to virtue signal saying the same thing and getting nothing gives up the game a bit. Have fun D&D, what a pit. I was waiting to probate Jaxyon because I had just replied to them in this thread and was seeing if they responded first.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:14
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Ytlaya posted:I feel like there's a frequent misunderstanding of what constitutes "bad faith" posting. The fact that someone posts in a thread knowing that other people will get mad at them (or that they want to whine to others in a more casual context where it won't get them probated) does not mean that their posting is in bad faith. You may think there is a misunderstanding, but there is not. But we'll get to that... Ytlaya posted:Here's what usually happens - someone goes to read a thread, and they get mad about the things others are saying (or otherwise feel a strong need to respond). The fact that they make a post knowing it runs against the grain of what many/most others in the thread believe (or also post in another thread where they might complain about this) does not make it bad faith! I agree, this is not bad faith posting. Ytlaya posted:This is a sort of a reasoning that inevitable leads threads to homogenize (because the greater portion of people who share a particular opinion, the more people who disagree will be perceived as "trying to stir poo poo up" - since they'll be aware that their post is going to make others mad). I also don't disagree here, for the most part, because I do think a lot of threads on SA tend to homogenize and often drive those with contrary opinions away. Ytlaya posted:"Bad faith" generally implies that 1. a person is only posting to rile people up and/or 2. they don't actually believe what they're saying. Neither are true in most of these cases. A person might post while knowing that their posting will rile people up, but that isn't the same thing as doing it with the specific intent of trolling. Now here is where I'm going to start to disagree. "Bad faith", per Oxford's definition, is "(in existentialist philosophy) refusal to confront facts or choices." So while I would agree with you that in an online space, the desire to rile others up is one form of "bad faith" posting, I also believe it applies to someone who is attempting to have an active discussion and/or debate, but who refuses to even be open minded and actually evaluate the information that others are posting and possibly question their own strongly-held beliefs. Thus, going back to your initial comment, it is not a misunderstanding: I believe there are individuals who do post on SA for the sole reason of riling others up, etc., and probably don't believe at all what they are posting, but I would agree with you in that I generally don't think it's anywhere near the majority of the problem. I do think though, as someone who lurks the C-SPAM Ukraine thread but doesn't actively post in in (largely because of said homogenization you mentioned above), that there are a significant number of posters in the C-SPAM thread who do fully believe what they are posting there. For example, one common refrain amongst regulars at times in the C-SPAM Ukraine thread has been that Azov Battalion and other far-right groups make up some significant number of Ukraine's military/government; when some have then tried to post in the D&D thread based on this mindset, they get presented with data showing that overall, pretty much all of these far-right groups are a small % and that it is an issue that can be dealt with post-conflict. Then it deteriorates into an argument because the original poster is so settled on their own opinion/belief, they refuse to even evaluate the information being presented to them. I personally view this as bad faith, because if someone is not willing to even be open to discussing the possibility that what they are posting is not accurate, then there is no point in discussing anything with them (and, this view exactly meets Oxford's definition). Ytlaya posted:While I have never posted in the D&D Ukraine thread (and generally don't post much in D&D these days), this is largely because when I read threads I often feel a strong urge to reply to things that I think are bad/wrong. If I had less impulse control (or was less adverse to making people mad, which is generally not something I enjoy), in all honesty I'd probably post more similarly to the people who you're describing and then complain about others posting things that I think are frustrating/dumb in C-SPAM. But this is then contributing to the homogenization you bemoan! If you think certain things are bad/wrong, post them and back them up with documentation. That's the only way that D&D can improve in my opinion. Ytlaya posted:At no point in this process would I actually be dishonest, though. Ytlaya posted:People are always going to have strong opinions about other people, especially on a forum like SA where people have been posting for many years. It makes sense for moderation to crack down on people directly insulting/complaining about people within threads (because it's bad for any sort of discussion), but I don't see the problem in people being more direct about how they feel in other forums/threads. It's not like this stuff is secret; people know when other people dislike them. I would say that this should go to QCS, but it'd just be invaded by the Army of C-SPAM to defend their inalienable posting rights, but I disagree: I legitimately don't think that any thread or forum on SA should openly allow a group of posters to mock others on SA. People will obviously disagree with this, as it seems you do (but I will apologize if I misinterpreted it), but several of the C-SPAM threads are openly toxic to anyone who does not share the regular's viewpoints, much as you posted above. And yes, I do know that there are those who feel that way about D&D also. I think the difference is that in D&D and other areas, when someone is openly hostile to another poster for their views, the hostile party usually gets probated. In many of C-SPAM's threads though, posters end up being allowed to be hostile to anyone who doesn't share the group think, and mods don't really take any action.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:15
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Koos Group posted:The thread was intended to be closed at the end of Sunday regardless, Sharkie has already had ample posting in it and was no longer doing so when I probed her, and I'm giving everyone warning. I also never ignore PMs. Well, across the forum, on the whole, good job. It looks like you have some blind spots. You should take on someone who can watch them.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:17
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I don’t mean that specifically about you or even D&D so it’s cool if probably insane that you do respond to ALL PMs, because many moderators, at least in the couple forums dramas I’ve been in, almost always blow off PMs. But yeah the general cycle of someone doing bad poo poo while dancing in the lines gets people angry who don’t know or get too mad to follow those lines while pointing it out and then get hammered and escalates until a bunch of people notice and start forums drama until enough other mods or admins intervene to actually address the issue.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:17
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all you obnoxious novel posters obsessed with perfect adherence to your moralistic principles should consider yourselves blessed that you have someone as obviously deranged as koos to sit here and respond to every single one of your intolerable posts
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Apr 25, 2022 04:21
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mycophobia posted:i have a legitimate philosophical interest in the concept of gender and wasnt just concern trolling or jaqing off or whatever catchphrase you want to use and i dont think it would be right to punish me for that. it wasnt right to try and draw out a discussion along those lines in a thread that ostensibly is about something different and much more specific where i dont really have more of a developed opinion than "generally speaking yeah." once again, mea culpa. I don't want you permabanned. I do want you to stop been transphobic. Here is a link to a trans thread with a bunch of useful books in the OP. Do some reading on your own time before you come in and post about trans issues again. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3906197 FWIW, the way you dismissed the political slogan "trans women are women" as a catchphrase was pretty low key transphobic. It's a political slogan that summarizes trans liberation succinctly. Your comparing people arguing for their rights to children talking about Pokémon. Stop it.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:22
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i appreciate koos's efforts to try and do the impossible task that is moderating debate and discussion
16-bit Butt-Head fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 04:26
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Rob Filter posted:FWIW, the way you dismissed the political slogan "trans women are women" as a catchphrase was pretty low key transphobic. It's a political slogan that summarizes trans liberation succinctly. Your comparing people arguing for their rights to children talking about Pokémon. Stop it. 'Catchphrase' and 'slogan' refer to pretty similar things. I think a more precise word would be 'shibboleth'.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:33
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Tezer posted:'Catchphrase' and 'slogan' refer to pretty similar things. I think a more precise word would be 'shibboleth'. Fair. The problem is not the exact wording, but more the open dismissiveness to language trans activists are using.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:36
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Rob Filter posted:Fair. The problem is not the exact wording, but more the open dismissiveness to language trans activists are using. perhaps the issue is conflation of activism with academics.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:42
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Rob Filter posted:Fair. The problem is not the exact wording, but more the open dismissiveness to language trans activists are using. Yelling at people over poo poo like this seems unhelpful to the point of being actively counterproductive? Expecting everyone to correctly recite the slogan or whatever you want to call it and declaring them low-key sus fam if they don't is the most annoying kind of posting-as-activism out there
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Apr 25, 2022 04:48
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some plague rats posted:Yelling at people over poo poo like this seems unhelpful to the point of being actively counterproductive? Expecting everyone to correctly recite the slogan or whatever you want to call it and declaring them low-key sus fam if they don't is the most annoying kind of posting-as-activism out there Honestly your right, without the rest of the transphobia calling it a slogan or a catchphrase or whatever would have been fine, so its actively useless for me to specifically call this out. I retract that. The rest of the post stands.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:52
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Rob Filter posted:Honestly your right, without the rest of the transphobia calling it a slogan or a catchphrase or whatever would have been fine, so its actively useless for me to specifically call this out. I retract that. The rest of the post stands. This is an unexpectedly reasonable response and I respect and appreciate it?
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Apr 25, 2022 04:54
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When it comes to bad faith posting a good chunk of it is being over thought imo. If someone is contemporaneously posting in a different thread espousing much more extreme views for example, shouldn't that be clear evidence of intent?
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Apr 25, 2022 04:57
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That was a nice exchange to end it on, so I hereby conclude the second quarterly D&D feedback thread. If you have any further concerns, my PMs are always open.
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Apr 25, 2022 05:00
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Spoke Lee posted:When it comes to bad faith posting a good chunk of it is being over thought imo. If someone is contemporaneously posting in a different thread espousing much more extreme views for example, shouldn't that be clear evidence of intent? That only holds if all threads are serious, and to an identical degree.
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Apr 25, 2022 05:01
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