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A big flaming stink posted:I'm going to be honest, I bailed from that thread in the early days when my position of hoping that the outcome of the war minimized civilian casualties regardless of who "won" was absolutely castigated as yellow-bellied appeasement. It left an extremely sour taste in my mouth. I'd say your cowardice in the face of criticism is not a modding decision. Nor is someone coming in with a bunch of hot takes about the Mauripol residents being grateful and then melting down in the face of criticism and counter argument. A long sincere post from CSPAM outlining contrary views to the prevailing D&D thread opinion was recently copied and pasted in to the D&D thread to a basically fair reaction. I would like much less shitposting, memes and jokes posted in the D&D Ukraine thread in general. It's the distinguishing feature of it in comparison to the CSPAM and GBS threads that it's largely serious and decorum focused. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 23:47
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Cicero posted:To help identify posters who consistently post like poo poo. Right, but how is "time between probes" a useful metric for how good someone's posting is? You look at a rapsheet like mine, I've got a ton of probes, lot of sixers, and a bunch of them are jokes, or "time to change subject" and a bunch of them are from mods who've since been demodded and driven off the forums for being various flavours of absolute weirdo. That kind of "no context, only the numbers" robotic modding is what trashed D&D in the first place
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Apr 23, 2022 23:48
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fez_machine posted:I'd say your cowardice in the face of criticism is not a modding decision. Oh god can we not start doing awful internet tough guy Ukraine posting in here as well
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Apr 23, 2022 23:54
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some plague rats posted:Oh god can we not start doing awful internet tough guy Ukraine posting in here as well If your only example of thread moderation being hostile to counter opinions is "I posted my opinions and the reaction of other posters left a bad taste in my mouth so I left" then that's a big fuss over nothing and intellectual cowardice.
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Apr 23, 2022 23:58
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Koos Group posted:Lowering the threshold for bad faith is something I've thought about a lot, but it seems very difficult to do fairly because of how it involves intent and specific positions. I would welcome more discussion in this thread about this topic. I think one thing that would help a lot is more emphasis on citeable facts and evidence. If someone declares something to be a concrete fact (and not just their personal opinion), then it ought to be expected that they should be able to back up that fact with proof. That tends to help clear up misunderstandings much faster. Just look at the COVID thread, where people misunderstand or misinterpret data a lot, and the issue tends to clear up a lot quicker when someone includes a link to the data they misinterpreted. More relevant to the subject of bad faith posting, it might help rein in the tendency for people to state their own personal opinions as concrete facts. Sometimes it seems like people forget that questions like "is this legal?" have real answers that you can just Google, and we don't have to guess at the answers or rely on our gut feelings or try to backwards-logic them from something we saw on Twitter. We can just look up the answers, even if we aren't actual lawyers! But so so often, there's a tendency to just pull an answer out of their rear end and defend it to the death - even against people who are citing the actual text of the actual laws! Ideally, that feels like it would run afoul of "moderate arguments, not positions" after a little while, but it feels like mod intervention doesn't come until someone loses their temper and starts snapping.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:00
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fez_machine posted:If your only example of thread moderation being hostile to counter opinions is "I posted my opinions and the reaction of other posters left a bad taste in my mouth so I left" then that's a big fuss over nothing and intellectual cowardice. If you stance is "I hope for the outcome that kills the least amount of people" and people are coming at you for it then something is pretty rotten in the thread culture?
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Apr 24, 2022 00:02
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some plague rats posted:If you stance is "I hope for the outcome that kills the least amount of people" and people are coming at you for it then something is pretty rotten in the thread culture? What's the moderation solution to that thread culture? Surely if enough people care to post arguments that prove that Ukraine's surrender would lead to the best outcomes then that would be the thread culture. But if you can't muster a defence against strong criticism, then maybe that's a personal flaw and perhaps a flaw in the argument you're making. None of this is grounded in moderation unless you'd like to bring back moderating for positions. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 00:08
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fez_machine posted:What's the moderation solution to that thread culture? I don't want to try and speak on someone else's issue in specific and in general I haven't read the thread enough to really know this, sorry. I read the GBS thread for a bit before I got booted and there was an incredible amount of bloodthirsty, exterminate-the-russian-brutes poo poo being posted and going entirely unmoderated and after that I resolved to stop reading Ukraine threads because who needs that
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Apr 24, 2022 00:17
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Moderation is pretty fair overall. What we have is unquestionably preferable to an unmoderated space, and whatever problems we have here, I don't think they're really related to the moderation. I would like it if moderation was a little more proactive. Like, a lot of those situations where 80% of USCE thread regulars end up on probation could've been avoided if one or two probes had been handed out a bit faster. But I recognize that this is a volunteer thing, and that only so much can be expected. But Upgrade mentioned something that I want to emphasize... Upgrade posted:And I'll leave with this: if you want D&D to be different, you're going to need to create an environment which new and different people actually want to post in, not just change the way in which you moderate the same people who posted under every other previous moderation scheme. So as you take the suggestions in this thread, bear in mind that those are the suggestions of people who already post here, and therefore can be assumed to enjoy it on some level, no matter how much we might like to complain about this or that. I think this is important to consider as US elections approach and we move into the "political season," and more posters from other subforums find themselves drifting into D&D. The moderation should be based around making their experience as positive as possible, because that's how we get more people posting, which should lead to richer and less repetitive discussion. I realize that this site doesn't really have an exploding user base to say the least, but I think D&D can appeal to a lot more SA users than it currently does. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 00:20
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some plague rats posted:I don't want to try and speak on someone else's issue in specific and in general I haven't read the thread enough to really know this, sorry. I read the GBS thread for a bit before I got booted and there was an incredible amount of bloodthirsty, exterminate-the-russian-brutes poo poo being posted and going entirely unmoderated and after that I resolved to stop reading Ukraine threads because who needs that lol
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Apr 24, 2022 00:21
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some plague rats posted:If you stance is "I hope for the outcome that kills the least amount of people" and people are coming at you for it then something is pretty rotten in the thread culture? When that position also implies giving a totalarian country free reign to commit genocide, no.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:21
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I like the changes that Koos has made as well as their specific moderation decisions. I specifically like the tone change on probation messages, there have been a lot fewer 'getting the last word' and 'rubbing posters noses in it' style probation messages, which I always thought were counterproductive. EDIT: Ok, here is some negative feedback in case I came across as too positive. I hate Despera's avatar.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:21
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Tezer posted:I like the changes that Koos has made as well as their specific moderation decisions. Someone gave it to me for predicting that russian non invasion and predicting putin had a kill list
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Apr 24, 2022 00:26
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Despera posted:When that position also implies giving a totalarian country free reign to commit genocide, no. Okay if the issue was that saying "I hope for a resolution where the least amount of people die" is met with "oh, so you love genocide then?" that's absolutely a moderation failure
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Apr 24, 2022 00:27
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some plague rats posted:Okay if the issue was that saying "I hope for a resolution where the least amount of people die" is met with "oh, so you love genocide then?" that's absolutely a moderation failure Hey its not like ukrainians who surrendered like that take argued they should werent shot in the back of the head.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:30
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Despera posted:When that position also implies giving a totalarian country free reign to commit genocide, no. Well, here's an example of the reason I stopped posting in the Ukraine thread. Despite that, overall, I appreciate the turn that D&D moderation has taken, because though I got chased out of the thread, I didn't get a probation or a ban for anything related to a very emotionally-laden conversation, and I definitely would have around the 2020 election. I'm glad people just made me stop debating and didn't run screaming to the mods.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:32
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some plague rats posted:Okay if the issue was that saying "I hope for a resolution where the least amount of people die" is met with "oh, so you love genocide then?" that's absolutely a moderation failure How is it a moderation failure? Nobody has said that the poster loves genocide not even in the quote you posted, just that they consider genocide the probable outcome of the resolution proposed. I think your major problem is thinking that counter-argument is personal attack. edit: lol at the idea of being chased out of a thread. pure cowardice fez_machine fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 00:33
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"If you don't support genocide why do 1. Lol. 2. Is this really the place?
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Apr 24, 2022 00:34
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Harold Fjord posted:"If you don't support genocide why do I keep insisting that you do, coward?" That's not what happened Pointing out that the position you support (Ukraine disarming and surrendering) will lead to those same people getting killed is not an accusation that you support that outcome. Just that you support a position that would lead to that most likely outcome. Disagreeing with the conclusion is one thing, but to misrepresent what people are saying is just tedious.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:37
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Yes life is tough when your position tha)t claims will save the most lives might actually not. I still think its absurd for someone for on message board to go "Hey freedom fighter why you fighting for your freedoms? Dont you realize more people will die?"
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Apr 24, 2022 00:39
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Despera posted:Hey its not like ukrainians who surrendered like that take argued they should werent shot in the back of the head. Okay serious note: if we want d&d to be a place for actual debate and discussion in the mold Koos etc seem to want, then this is exactly the kind of lunatic escalation in response to extremely anodyne points needs to be shooed out of d&d and back to it's natural home in cspam. It's not conductive to reasoned discussion, it's not attempting to change minds or make a point, it's just an attempt to shut down not even opposing but just slightly different viewpoints by shouting over them and making the whole thing an emotional debate over who can get more weepy about whatever Bad Thing has recently happened I know this probably sounds like bad faith coming from me but I deleted my immediate response and counted to ten before posting and everything
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Apr 24, 2022 00:40
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some plague rats posted:making the whole thing an emotional debate Now this can be moderated. But hard because, well, people have valid emotional reactions to poo poo and debate lord unemotional robot argumentation is tedious to read and write.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:45
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:That's not what happened That would be a reasonable response, sure if anyone has said that. That wasn't the response though, was it. That was Despera assuming the most uncharitable possible interpretation of that statement and escalating rather than asking for specifics or doing any kind of reasonable debating You're assuming "least amount of people dead" means Ukraine disarming and surrendering, when no one suggested that, because that's an easy position to attack and vilify.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:47
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If youre position is they should surrender and disarm you shouldnt be offended when somone brings up what happened to those who did in fact disarm and surrender.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:47
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Squashing actual for real virtue signaling from all sides would go a long way too. Threads turning into who can make the grandest statement to show how strongly they believe is exhausting.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:47
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I think the overall posting quality has increased significantly. D&D is a much more entertaining, informative forum to read. There are still a small group of prolific trolls who post almost nothing but odious garbage, yet seem to be immune from being probated. I suspect it has something to do with the different levels of willingness that certain users have to use/abuse the "report" function. I'm not sure if there's a solution that's good for the long-term health of the forum to address that disparity.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:49
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some plague rats posted:That would be a reasonable response, sure. That wasn't the response though, was it. That was Despera assuming the most uncharitable possible interpretation of that statement and escalating rather than asking for specifics or doing any kind of reasonable debating There is something to be said for the principal of charity when making an argument. I know I have been guilty of this in the recent past and it is for sure something that can shut down a discussion.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:50
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forbidden dialectics posted:There are still a small group of prolific trolls who post almost nothing but odious garbage, who seem to be immune from being probated. Also I have some feedback thread feedback: anyone saying anything like this should have to name names
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Apr 24, 2022 00:51
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some plague rats posted:Also I have some feedback thread feedback: anyone saying anything like this should have to name names Finally something I agree 100% with you on.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:52
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Can you all shut up about Ukraine in the feedback thread
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Apr 24, 2022 00:52
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some plague rats posted:Also I have some feedback thread feedback: anyone saying anything like this should have to name names That's probably a larger can of worms than is worth opening. I don't need the whole of d&d to tell me how much they have suffered through my posting for nearly 20 years.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:54
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fez_machine posted:I would like much less shitposting, memes and jokes posted in the D&D Ukraine thread in general. It's the distinguishing feature of it in comparison to the CSPAM and GBS threads that it's largely serious and decorum focused. Guilty as charged, kind of. I don’t believe there’s regular shitposting in my thread that goes unpunished (examples to the contrary would be appreciated), but I’m fairly hands off with people cracking jokes. The main reason for that is a large population of fellow Eastern Europeans in my thread, including, e.g., someone who had family members sheltering in a basement in Mariupol for weeks, with one of them dying shortly after being finally evacuated recently. Many of us are immediately affected by this war, and I do believe that cracking a joke, or having a laugh at one, does help both posters individually and to take an edge off the thread on the whole. That said, I do recognise that there are several “noisy” posters - to name a few, WAR CRIME GIGOLO and Despera. Here what I have to say is that their jokes frequently do appeal to what little sense of humour I do have, moderation on that specific rule being a subjective thing in our comedy forum, and that they do also regularly make normal contributions to the thread, in my opinion. My suggestion, trite as it will sound, is to report jokes you find excessive. As an IK, I have no access to reports, and so it will be moderators handling those posts. None of them is “local” to all of this, and most of them don’t regularly engage with the posters in the thread.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:59
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Upgrade posted:Can you all shut up about Ukraine in the feedback thread Its a popular thread
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Apr 24, 2022 00:59
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I don't have any great ideas about this, but particularly for super long running threads with massive page counts, the gigantic piles of thread specific rules that accrue against rehashing "uninteresting" topics kind of suck. If a thread with hundreds of pages has a list of verboten topics that are moderated according to the whims of whether someone thinks a rehash is based on something significantly "new," it's hard to have debate or discussion on those topics. I'm sure whoever is moderating that is tired of hearing about it, but just because it devolved into a slap fight 300 pages ago doesn't mean it should be moderated differently in my opinion. All that does is force the thread to become more insular and pedantic over time, and the moderation just feels arbitrary from the standpoint of someone who doesn't have an encyclopedic knowledge of so much posting history. speng31b fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 01:14
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some plague rats posted:Okay if the issue was that saying "I hope for a resolution where the least amount of people die" is met with "oh, so you love genocide then?" that's absolutely a moderation failure I agree with the general principle of this Instead of seeing a view that disagrees with theirs and jumping straight to the worst and most uncharitable assumption possible, I think it would be cool if people attempted to have a conversation and come to a mutual understanding, and part of that is at least trying to assume that you're dealing with reasonable people who are maybe just being a little unclear about their views or aren't working from the same preconceptions as you If all someone really wants is to just wanna seek out the worst opinions possible and dash out one-liner owns on them, there's already a whole website designed just for that. It even limits posts to 140 characters, to help make sure people don't accidentally type something thoughtful or substantial
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Apr 24, 2022 01:15
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forbidden dialectics posted:I think the overall posting quality has increased significantly. D&D is a much more entertaining, informative forum to read. There are still a small group of prolific trolls who post almost nothing but odious garbage, yet seem to be immune from being probated. I suspect it has something to do with the different levels of willingness that certain users have to use/abuse the "report" function. I'm not sure if there's a solution that's good for the long-term health of the forum to address that disparity. Yes, posts that get reported are more likely to have mod action than posts that don't because we're more likely to look closely at them. On any given day there are typically two or three mods who are active and we aren't able to closely read all 150 new posts in CE and 300 posts in the Ukraine thread or whatever. Keep in mind that not too long ago astral increased the character limit in reports so you can type a more detailed report explaining why you think a post needs actioned and giving context. I know that's asking a little extra effort from users but it's very helpful on the mod side. To use a counterexample, there's a user who reports posts with simply "garbage" or "stupid garbage" which is not at all helpful. Not gonna name names but your reports might be actioned more if you gave us a little more explanation  cinci zoo sniper posted:Guilty as charged, kind of. I don’t believe there’s regular shitposting in my thread that goes unpunished (examples to the contrary would be appreciated), but I’m fairly hands off with people cracking jokes. The main reason for that is a large population of fellow Eastern Europeans in my thread, including, e.g., someone who had family members sheltering in a basement in Mariupol for weeks, with one of them dying shortly after being finally evacuated recently. Many of us are immediately affected by this war, and I do believe that cracking a joke, or having a laugh at one, does help both posters individually and to take an edge off the thread on the whole. I read most/all of the posts in the Ukraine thread but largely let cinci handle stuff. If there's a call for less shitposting and low-content posts I'm happy to help move the thread in that direction. And yes, submit reports. Especially in a fast-moving thread it's helpful.
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Apr 24, 2022 01:18
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The Trans athletics thread was absolutely atrocious. It became a bunch of people walking the line of concern trolling and bigotry and some of the most vulnerable people in western society being ignored and probated while bigots had free reign, all so that the marginalized could do emotional labor for the benefit of vaguely interested oppressors. It's clear that if you keep the right tone and occasionally quote a study(it doesn't have to even support your argument) that someone else posted, you can work that gimmick past the mods here all day. In a way that something that affects them would never be tolerated. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 01:20
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Main Paineframe posted:I agree with the general principle of this Yeah this is fair. To use a recent example, I think if you're posting here and not just saying obviously inflammatory poo poo it's safe to assume you think genocide is bad, because basically nobody in their right mind thinks otherwise. If you're responding to a post by assuming that's what someone thinks then you need to slow down and take a minute to think about what they probably were actually saying, and whether you're actually trying to have a conversation or just scoring points. We literally have a forum right next door where you can go and say whatever absolutely wild poo poo you feel like and dunk on everyone, I do it all the time and it's great
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Apr 24, 2022 01:23
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speng31b posted:I don't have any great ideas about this, but particularly for super long running threads with massive page counts, the gigantic piles of thread specific rules that accrue against rehashing "uninteresting" topics kind of suck. I sympathise with your concerns, but I would like to remind that the topic of my thread is current events in Russian war with Ukraine - it is meant to be a newsfeed with some nuance. The list of topics that are more likely to see the posts scrutinised from “boring posts” rule of D&D perspective is populated on the basis of having regular derails about them, and consists of the following topics: 1) History of NATO (literal hundreds of pages of derails, with the focus most frequently being on people just wishing to post about the United States) 2) Legal analysis of the Geneva Converions (dozens of pages of derails, when the thread has like 2 posters who understand what they’re talking about there) 3) No-fly zones (dozens of pages of derails, overlaps with general rule against Tom Clancy posts) 4) DSA and tankies (maybe a dozen pages of derails, but this both gets heated in a US CE kind of way and is frequently used as a dogwhistle for posting about C-SPAM regulars) Here, I’d like to note that people can still post about these topics if they are a part of the news cycle for the day. Furthermore, they can also simply make fresh and interesting posts about them, though additional rules around (3) and (4) may make that difficult. Lastly, posting about neither of these is required to have a comprehensive conversation about the day-to-day developments in the war. In general, I also dislike having rules of this kind. However, I disliked the thread without them much more, and so I have just filed these rules under the “this is why we cannot have nice things” label. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 01:39
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some plague rats posted:Yeah this is fair. To use a recent example, I think if you're posting here and not just saying obviously inflammatory poo poo it's safe to assume you think genocide is bad, because basically nobody in their right mind thinks otherwise. If you're responding to a post by assuming that's what someone thinks then you need to slow down and take a minute to think about what they probably were actually saying, and whether you're actually trying to have a conversation or just scoring points. We literally have a forum right next door where you can go and say whatever absolutely wild poo poo you feel like and dunk on everyone, I do it all the time and it's great I agree, and in fact it would be great if it was totally unacceptable to accuse another poster of posting in bad faith as a way of dismissing their argument. Transphobic poo poo should just be against the rules as table stakes, but otherwise if you think someone else is posting in bad faith and have evidence of it, just report the post instead?
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Apr 24, 2022 01:39
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