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Length absolutely still gets confused got effort. Long posts that say nothing are much safer than short posts that don't say enough.
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Apr 23, 2022 19:16
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 01:38 |
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Main Paineframe posted:
Until anything is done about fanboy posting CE is going to be CE. In the same way we collectively laugh out anyone who would post about how Republicans and conservatives can do no wrong and can only be failed we need to kick out the same posting about any other political flavor. But, that's obviously tougher since we also have a contingent of USPol posters who see it as being a place where you cheerlead your beliefs and stomp out any criticism. Also to finally figure out what level of poo poo posting is allowed. Casual poo poo posting is happily allowed in that thread until some invisible line gets crossed or one group gets angry at the casual flippancy of another group while also wanting to do their own shitposting some times. I guess to summarize that overall, USpol/CE is always going to be a thread where people with different beliefs are going to want to have arguments that involve current events and how they connect to the larger political picture. The best way to moderate that is pushing people to not be idiots and be strict if someone just can't have a productive conversation. Everyone can be criticized and valid criticisms and comments need to both be made and accepted and if you can't do either of those I don't think it's going to add to the sort of environment people claim to want in CE. Or just make it a casual news feed like some posters want and anything but milquetoast explanations are not allowed. I know it also gets argued a lot that lurkers use it as a news feed and the thread should be currated towards that. Honestly, I kind of like this one. Protect the forums by taking away the Americans soapboxes.
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Apr 23, 2022 19:54
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 I post in both without much issue.Though to be fair in regards to the war threads I generally don't post in either because I find both to be very ghoulish. I do think opinions about the hive mind in cspam are exaggerated though. Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 21:48
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:I post there in a limited fashion as well, but some threads are Some threads on SA are  You new here or something?
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Apr 23, 2022 |
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Apr 23, 2022 21:55
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:A weeklong probe is not a ban, and ironic shitposting is not something we should have to tolerate at all. pssst, check the rap sheet
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Apr 23, 2022 22:01
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Also if you think that dude was ever representative of the CSPAM hivemind you uh... don't read CSPAM that close.. Like, I think you do have valid criticism for "why didn't he ever get hit that hard in D&D and it took the poo poo post politics to do it?".
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Apr 23, 2022 22:03
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We don't need to go back to mods banning people for overly long rap sheets and it turning out half the probes were ironic and no one bothered looking.
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Apr 23, 2022 23:40
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If you post so badly that multiple people think you're a gimmick and you've been probed for being a gimmick maybe you're not hitting the standards mods are setting for D&D.
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Apr 23, 2022 23:46
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Squashing actual for real virtue signaling from all sides would go a long way too. Threads turning into who can make the grandest statement to show how strongly they believe is exhausting.
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Apr 24, 2022 00:47
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Can I post a thread debating if the earth is round and will mods make sure to shut up anyone who's too mean about insisting that it is when I ask questions? I went to make sure D&D is safe for different opinions before I post it. I'm absolutely willing to listen to suggestions that the earth is round and isn't flat. We can compare data, I have a lot of data showing that the earth is probably flat that I'd love to discuss with other intellectuals, I just want to make sure decorum is up held and anyone who is too difficult about making their point is kicked out.
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 15:23
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Oh, would a thread about the Holomador make sure that no one will be called a genocide denier? In the context of that thread it would be a baseless accusation from people who have no interest in discussing the topic.
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Apr 24, 2022 15:34
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I think this could be a good idea, but I'm uncertain if you can do that without kicking conservatives out of D&D, on example of the sports thread. The sub with multiple conservative mock threads already does this in practice but not policy which is really one of the big problems with D&D. Policy is very idealistic while actual practice is a lot more reasonable and puts a specific window on acceptable views. Things would be a lot less contentious if the sub was more honest about what views are and are not allowed.
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Apr 24, 2022 15:55
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OwlFancier posted:That assumes that minds are changed by debate, which I do not think they are. The utility of debate is recreational and grandstanding to make your position appear dominant, I do not think that arguing with people actually changes their minds. I've had my mind changed by debates
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Apr 24, 2022 18:39
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:yeah same, this: Our main frame of reference for "how people think" is ourselves.
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Apr 24, 2022 19:00
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cinci zoo sniper posted:I think this is a noble philosophy, but I'm not sure if we (and I'm not even sure if I mean D&D or the people talking politics online in general) are capable to have such conversations in principle in the post-truth world. I know that this is not useful, but I cannot help but wonder if this is a medium where such principled conversations can become a baseline at all. At a risk of sounding as a broken clock, I suspect that the answers depends on whether if people genuinely hold their beliefs, or just post in a pattern that earns them the kind of attention they revel in. It's a really noble philosophy but I think it also highlights one of the huge problems with D&D, we love having noble philosophy that has nothing to do with what's actually going on in threads. In the same way D&D aims to be impartial and moderated in a way that's non-political the head admin also has a philosophy that's pushing them to curate certain discussions and push out others. It's the same way 99% of the time D&D is just the liberal politics zone and everyone is very happy with that but you can't call it the liberal politics zone because liberal politics adherrants believe that their politics are just the way of the world. In short, all of the D&D philosophy shouldn't really produce multiple conservative mock threads, a thread about a war that's primarily a news feed of your enemies getting owned, and a lot of the other threads we have. There's not even anything wrong with them, it's just that what we say we want and what we want in practice rarely match up. A lot of the pain would go away if we just honestly slapped "this is the liberal left posting zone" on the door because well, it is.
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Apr 24, 2022 20:32
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Koos Group posted:What positions do you believe I'm pushing out? I mean based on your philosophy you're pushing out people who think D&D isn't a place to educate bigots and think the only way to build a tolerant place for discussion is to push them out. There is counter belief that allowing any tolerance even in the effort of education is creating an intolerant atmosphere. I don't think I even land on either side of that argument, just that at some point you need to pick because you're not going to have a noble philosophy that pleases everyone and at some point you need to decide who the audience is for D&D. We already self select for a specific audience so who is the audience you're moderating for?
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Apr 24, 2022 20:55
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Koos Group posted:Ah, I was confused about what you mean by "push out." Yeah, I realized you probably thought positions and that's not what I mean. I'll be totally honest I've jumbled a few points in my head but I think my overall position is just figure out what the gently caress D&D is, what a specific thread is, and moderate for that and be honest about that. If you think D&D is a place to let bigots come in and allow themselves to be educated and people need to be tolerant of that and accept that to post her than fine, but put that on the door because not everyone wants to be around that and them not knowing your philosophy caused them to think they could act in ways that you don't want around and punished. To use CE as a less charged example, is it a political philosophy arena or a news feed of current events? Mods and admins seem to want a news feed and hate the fights but also encourage them through their posting and moderation. Figure out what it is and stick to it.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:07
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speng31b posted:I think you're slightly misinterpreting the post you quoted given their usage of "liberal left." You're right that there's quite a bit of back and forth between liberalism and leftism, but actual unironic rightist viewpoints are less common and tend to be immediately correlated to bad faith. I don't think that's bad, it's more about forums culture and what SA is or has become (vs reddit, etc) Yeah, I mean liberalism into socdem. Unironic far right and most liberal right posts are met with a lot of hostility. Communism and other far left tendencies are accepted but are met with a lot more skepticism and occasional hostility but also have CSPAM. And CSPAM avoids a lot of this problem by just being honest about who the intended audience is and the fact that you'll be met with open hostility, especially if you're just there to antagonize. Is it as noble as a grand philosophy? No, but it's a lot more honest and how pretty much every discussion forum I've ever been in has actually worked in practice, you have an audience and you work with them in mind. And I know there is the idea that the audience for D&D is anyone who wants to come in and have an enlightened discussion about any topic but it's also not that right now. And I think to get there you'd have to be really strict against a lot of moralism and SA in general seems to not want that for any of their political discussions so I don't think there would be a lot of use for that version of D&D.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:19
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So actually reading the rule around bigotryquote:---In keeping with the SA rules, bigoted statements against users is not permitted. It is technically not against the rules to make arguments with a bigoted implication or conclusion, but these will naturally attract a great deal of scrutiny. (Edited by Koos Group) My suggestion is to just add on that part of posting in D&D is that you will be required to either entertain bigoted statements that may be made maliciously or in ignorance until the mods personally have sufficient evidence or hold your tongue and not participate. The fall out might be bad but that seems to be what's actually happening in practice.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:34
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Koos Group posted:There is already a general rule about good faith, Mr. Gumption. Yeah but it's obviously not clear enough for people to understand what it actually entails. The rules need to be more explicit because of an incident that happened. It's like when they slap a "don't stick your dick in here" on things that are obviously not where your dick goes, someone did it so it's not that obvious. It's confused enough people between the trans thread and this thread that it would have gotten a sixer for being confusing.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:38
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Bel Shazar posted:Never take the bigot's side, even tacitly. I definitely think the other way is better, intolerance of intolerance. But D&D as a collective should decide, I'm just throwing out what I think the likely pick would be. And we have a political sub that's intolerant of intolerance so there will still be a place for people if the experiment fails.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:41
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Koos, I want to try to explain it all in a different way so I have a question for you about how you view D&D right now and what you want. Do you think both of these statements are true (or at least you want them to be true if we're not meeting this standard right now): "D&D is a safe space for trans posters" and "D&D is a place where people with bigoted beliefs can speak about them respectfully without personally attacking anyone, in the hopes they'll be educated?"
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 21:48
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Koos Group posted:Not exactly. The hope isn't just about educating bigots, but about educating others in how they can be dealt with and why their ideas are wrong. The part about being a safe space for trans posters is certainly true though, which is why we enforce general SA rules about directing hate at users. Gotcha, ok, then I think those two things are fundamentally at odds and go against the average person's idea of being a safe space. Not everyone is going to want to post in a place where they have to be a living example for how to properly endure a bigot's arguments. If you want a safe space you either need to crack down on any bigotry harder to bring the place more in line with what people are expecting or put a big sign at the door explicitly saying if you're coming into D&D to you're going to be exposing yourself to this. Make it a safe space by very clearly outlining the ways that it is not a safe space so that people can better make a choice on if they want to post.
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Apr 24, 2022 21:57
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Yesterday at 7-11 a dude told me about how much crack he used to sell and how he didn't touch it anymore because it's a white person devil drug. He's pretty chill tbh.
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Apr 24, 2022 22:58
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some plague rats posted:Thank you. Being "exposed to calm Hitler" (incredible phrase) is an unfortunate consequence of posting on a debate forum, anyone who doesn't want to encounter lovely debate tactics can post in every other thread on the forum. The two people sending PMs were immediately permabanned, so I'm not sure what else could be done there short of trying to moderate pre-crime? I don't think anything that happened has made this an "unsafe space" in any way, and I can't imagine what the moderation solution would be, having a big list of positions you're not allowed to take? then you're playing whack-a-mole as people try and bait each other into taking them. Banning people from "sealioning" and "calm hitlering"? What would that even look like? I'd argue it's the opposite, like I said make more explicit warnings that this is a place where moderation expects you to be exposed to a certain amount of bigotry for the purpose of showing people how to argue against bigots. It might piss people off but it's also the truth and then people can decide if they want to post in D&D or not. I personally think it will lead to less posting but it will lead to less contentious posting as well because the unhappy will leave and the mod team will get the D&D they're currently working towards but not explicitly lining out.
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Apr 25, 2022 01:17
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Bel Shazar posted:That would be great for a specific thread. As a standard for the entire sub forum it sucks to have the community grant even that amount of legitimacy to such beliefs. let bad moderation kill the community by being honest
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Apr 25, 2022 01:22
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 01:38 |
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Cease to Hope posted:It's something that would have been very clear from looking at her posting history in that thread. And I'm confident that you did not, because this was her previous post in the thread, earlier today. The openly trans person getting 18 and the openly cis who loves to virtue signal saying the same thing and getting nothing gives up the game a bit. Have fun D&D, what a pit.
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Apr 25, 2022 04:13
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