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The Trans athletics thread was absolutely atrocious. It became a bunch of people walking the line of concern trolling and bigotry and some of the most vulnerable people in western society being ignored and probated while bigots had free reign, all so that the marginalized could do emotional labor for the benefit of vaguely interested oppressors. It's clear that if you keep the right tone and occasionally quote a study(it doesn't have to even support your argument) that someone else posted, you can work that gimmick past the mods here all day. In a way that something that affects them would never be tolerated. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 01:20
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 07:01 |
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Absolutely incredible watching posters who are rightfully upset about the shitshow that was the moderation in my transgender athletics thread getting insta-probed while "have you considered that maybe transgender people are too safe" guy is just sitting there.Colonel Cool posted:There's so many places on the rest of the forums that are extremely supportive places trans people can go to feel comfortable. I don't think D&D needs to be that place. Just absolutely unreal. PS GEE DOES LETS CHECK THE loving RAP SHEET AND SEE WHAT IS IN THERE I HOPE IT'S NOT TRANSPHOBIA Colonel Cool posted:more like trans women are BITCHES OH drat WELL MAYBE IT'S IRONIC BECAUSE IF YOU SAY YOUR BIGOTRY IS IRONIC IT'S 100% COOL gently caress you and gently caress you for the probation I'm about to get because I'm mad about bigotry instead of politely posting bigotry you unreal fuckfaces
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Apr 24, 2022 09:00
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Oh you want honest and direct feedback (per sharkie's probe reason)? Fix this poo poo now. It sucks and you suck until you fix it. Permaban transhpobes. You think that might cause people to think twice before asking a question about transgender issues? loving good.
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Apr 24, 2022 09:05
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Apr 24, 2022 09:31
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doingitwrong posted:You set the thread up to fail. Your OP was just the word YES in an attractive graphic. Later, you said… (emphasis added) This is fair.
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Apr 24, 2022 17:14
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Teaching people is fine(if it's voluntary). Asking questions is fine. None of the transphobes in that thread listened to anyone and made it clear they were not trying to learn. And most of us picked up on it quick Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 17:50
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empty whippet box posted:This is a forum for serious debate and discussion. The moderation team explicitly believes these are topics open for discussion(through action and words to confirm this) and that people must be assumed to be in good faith about them until they absolutely explicitly reveal themselves to be bigots by harassing posters. Only the most unrepentant bigots are open about their bigotry so all bigots need to thrive here is a thin veneer of sophistry and at most you'll get a nice little 3 day vacation for not playing the game well enough. As opposed to the ejection out the airlock you'd get in most other well moderated forums.
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Apr 24, 2022 18:03
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Colonel Cool posted:So no, I don't think the entire population is made up of hardliners that can't be swayed with the right arguments. Some of them definitely exist, but I think they're in the minority. Ther is no light bigotry. Your intent does not lessen the impact. That's why ironic bigotry is just bigotry. Oh some fragile people messaged you that they are fragile? Who cares. If you change your mind you can change your mind but most non "hardline" bigots are just as hardline. They just are polite about it and see themselves as different.
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Apr 24, 2022 18:59
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Oh you're afraid people might call you out for not doing the slightest big of homework before questioning someone's existence? That must so hard
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Apr 24, 2022 19:01
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Cicero posted:When I was Mormon and more conservative, I had my mind changed by the discussion about gay marriage. The arguments about it, combined with the fact that there was this big public debate about it for a number of years which had me thinking seriously about my position, got me to do so. The more I thought about the homophobic views I had inherited from society at large and Mormonism in particular, the more I felt like, "...wait no, that's dumb." "Maybe some bigots might eventually stop being bigots" is not a good enough to allow bigots to post bigotty. If people volunteer to do outreach and emotional labor then they can do that but a message board is almost never how that works. If people want to convert bigots there are actual tactics.
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Apr 24, 2022 19:33
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Koos Group posted:This is one of my major concerns with moderating positions. It's incentivizing people who have those positions to hide them, only making insinuations. In other words, acting in bad faith. No, society already does that. It's already not socially acceptable to be a bigot. Most bigots do not believe they are bigots, they just think they are right. They will act in bad faith because there is no depth to their beliefs, because their position doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. No matter what your moderation style, the bigots will always say they're not bigots and just honestly curious. Context matters. The lives of transgender people aren't idle philosophical questions where your ideals matter more than their pain.
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Apr 24, 2022 20:13
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Quotey posted:I don't think the people PMing Cool to thank her are bigots probably? I wonder why they're so fragile! Economics isnt questioning someone's humanaity and it's a field with a large amount of actual debate. I personally called out the assholes making GBS threads on economics, but it's not the same thing at all. If you are feeling fragile about bigotry thats on you. You dont get safety at the expense of marginalized peoples safety.
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Apr 24, 2022 20:26
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empty whippet box posted:There's actually a whole bunch of people who love me and want me to continue posting. They're posting too, just out of frame. Also this.
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Apr 24, 2022 20:29
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Koos Group posted:Good question. The thread probably would not be allowed. NOW you won't, but only AFTER you allowed it go on with minimal moderation and literal harassment, while the mod team was able to instantly make the decision on bad faith when it targetted them(sharkies post). This isn't a safe space for trans posters. There are shitposting facebook groups that give less slack to transphobic bigots. They respond to transphobes like you and your team responds to posts critical of yourselves. I like their priorities better. Follow their lead. Err on the side of moderating transphobia and other bigotry too harshly. Koos Group posted:As I said, abuse aimed toward posters on the basis of race, sex, trans status, and so on, is against not only D&D's rules but the rules of the site. It is not allowed by any means, which is why Aginor was permabanned for it. As for whether a rule being in place would prevent the people who made the statements and were later punished from making the statements in the first place, I hadn't considered that. In this specific case I don't know that it would, as both of them thought they could get away with hiding their positions, and may not have thought of what they were saying as transphobic anyway and as a result still may have done the same in the thread. But more broadly I see your point. No, hate speech only is against the rules of the site and not even very strongly: quote:I Hate Speech: Offensive terms such as "f****t" or "n****r" may or may not be bannable based on context of the sentence. If they were meant as humor with absolutely no offensive slurs meant, the user may not be banned or probated. This rule is completely, 100% subjective and is based on the mod reading the post at the time. Use at your own peril. Aginor was banned under the harassment policy, not any sort of bigotry policy, because the site doesn't have one. The hate speech policy is only tonal and allows for subjective moderation. All you have to do under the rules of the forum to be a successful bigot is not be open about it, not use slurs, and make a pretence of pretending to debate Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 23:08
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Who What Now posted:D&D ostensibly has mods other than Koos but none of them felt like they were allowed to do anything about rampant transphobia that he ignored for days. Maybe Koos should just be a normal mod and not "head mod"? The other mods removed Sharkie's "eat poo poo" thread so quick that Koos claims to not even have realized it existed.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:12
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some plague rats posted:Look honestly you're getting a bit ridiculous here. Dial it back a bit How so? Upgrade posted:It is extremely weird that apparently the goal of this iteration of D&D in 2022 is to educate bigots, and therefore we must give bigots a space to peddle their ideas so they have the opportunity to be educated. I do appreciate Koos making this goal extremely clear, because it lets anyone not interested in engaging with people within that framework just not participate in the forum anymore. I guess my earlier suggestion that the mods make their vision for the forum clear isn't necessary, because it has been made very clear. It's just not something I'd ever want to be a part of, and I'm not sure who would. I'm told the forum used to be very Libertarian, and now we have the glorious return to that: A bunch of bad faith sea-lioning where we discuss the lives of incredibly vulnerable minorities in a dispassionate philosophical setting and only get upset if the collegial tone is departed from. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 24, 2022 |
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Apr 24, 2022 23:18
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Koos Group posted:Ah, I was under the impression Jeffrey had added more to the rules than that. Maybe he just said it in some QCS thread. Don't you think that as a moderator who's quoting the rules, in a discussion about a very serious subject, you should at least know what the loving rules are? Your actions show what level of importance this is to you. And as far as I can see, it's not much. quote:The goal of current D&D is not to educate bigots, is to have good discussion. When I began modding I believed avoiding moderating positions was beneficial to that goal. I am currently reconsidering it based on feedback. It doesn't as much matter what your goal or intent is, what matters is the results and the impact. The results and impact have been you laxly moderating bad faith bigots and strictly moderating their targets. some plague rats posted:No one is organizing harassment campaigns or doxxing or writing legislation or posting threats, there was one thread that was poorly moderated and got gassed. Declaring that makes this "not a safe space for trans people" quite frankly makes it sound like you think we're a bunch of little babies who need to be wrapped in cotton wool so the bad opinions can't hurt us, it's downright demeaning and it would be good if you could stop A "safe space" means "a place or environment in which a person or category of people can feel confident that they will not be exposed to discrimination, criticism, harassment, or any other emotional or physical harm." That is not this forum. It feels like you've internalized the "hugbox" distortion of what a safe space is that bigots promote.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:33
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some plague rats posted:Right, because when members of the minority you're speaking for say "hey, can you please stop infantilizing me" the correct ally response is to pull out the loving dictionary and accuse them of doing a ben shapiro I try to err on the side of "is this a safe space" and if people are being exposed to calm-hitler and being harassed through DMs, I don't think it's a safe space. That said, you're asking me to stop, so I will. Koos Group posted:The opposite is true. In the trans athlete thread I moderated people who were upset about transphobia and potential transphobia to a much more lenient degree than normal, because it is such a highly charged and personal topic that some slack could be given when getting heated about it. Again, the result is still that you can get away with polite bigotry for far longer than most people have patience to deal with it.
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Apr 24, 2022 23:56
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Koos Group posted:The transphobes were permabanned and threadbanned with a longer probie than that, respectively. After people raised a stink and after people were harassed. An admin had to loving step in some plague rats posted:Thank you. Being "exposed to calm Hitler" (incredible phrase) is an unfortunate consequence of posting on a debate forum, anyone who doesn't want to encounter lovely debate tactics can post in every other thread on the forum. The two people sending PMs were immediately permabanned, so I'm not sure what else could be done there short of trying to moderate pre-crime? I don't think anything that happened has made this an "unsafe space" in any way, and I can't imagine what the moderation solution would be, having a big list of positions you're not allowed to take? then you're playing whack-a-mole as people try and bait each other into taking them. Banning people from "sealioning" and "calm hitlering"? What would that even look like? Ban transphobes. Plenty of other forums handle this fine without people having to explicitly say "I am a transphobe please ban me" some plague rats posted:Aginor and Trollologist were both ban+30d by a d&d mod and then permabanned? Trollogist had a long history of transphobia until we pointed it out in that thread. They should have been permad well before that. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Apr 25, 2022 |
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Apr 25, 2022 00:05
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Koos Group posted:I remember that I probated him, and while he was on probation he was permabanned. I don't believe it's reasonable to expect me to remember the exact duration of a probe over a week ago. Well if you can't be bothered to remember the forum rules of a forum you moderate, then this certainly does seem like an unreasonable request in that context. It doesn't change my assumption of "this isn't a serious issue for you" and it's a serious issue for a lot of other people.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:20
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Koos Group posted:I'm not sure why I was sleeping at those hours, but I do distinctly remember waking up to find Trollologist had made those posts (not a pleasant experience), and I hadn't posted between the one before that and the next day. It may have been that I was doing something the rest of the day rather than falling asleep immediately. That could make sense depending on what day of the week it was. Anyway, I feel we're getting into territory that's less about moderation and more about me personally. And with all due respect, it seems as though you have a certain conclusion about me that isn't accurate and you're grasping a bit to try and demonstrate. I think people are upset that you seem to moderate people who are upset at bigots faster and more harshly than those who are upset by them. And that you largely seem okay with bigotry as long as it follows decorum. Those combined give people, at the most charitable, the reading that you are so insulated from bigotry that it's largely an academic exercise for you.
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Apr 25, 2022 00:47
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| # ¿ May 21, 2024 07:01 |
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Koos Group posted:Well, I disagree because of the extra space I was giving people upset by transphobia in the trans athletes thread, which I mentioned earlier, as well as the fact that I think posts that appear bigoted ought to be scrutinized more heavily, as I state in the rules. But we might be going in circles on this point.. Its going around in circles because you don't want to listen, you're just restating your premise. I'd hazard that's why you don't consider transphobes doing the same shtick as bad faith, because you don't recognize that you do the same thing.
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Apr 25, 2022 02:47
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