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Arc Impulse posted:So, I put off getting to the second half of Umineko for a while for a bunch of reasons, but I'm making a start back on it now again. As such I'm throwing more thoughts in here now so I can hopefully post anything else in smaller snippets afterwards, which'll cover up where I'm currently through, up until the first deaths in Episode 5. It'll probably be a bit scattered and vague though, just so I don't do a super big wall of spoilertext. Just remember friend, Without love, it cannot be seen...
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Aug 30, 2023 04:11
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Gaius Marius posted:Eirika is a dickhead yeah but episode 6.
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Aug 30, 2023 04:11
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Okay, yeah, so like one more scene on from where I was and I can agree, Erika is a dickhead. This stuff'll cover up through like partway through Episode 5, "Reasoning and Inspection", past the talk in Beatrice's garden after the study debate. But yeah, first thing's first, Erika really is such a little poo poo, considering how she blows off stress with Dlanor's subordinates, drat. Considering Battler's already put her in her place twice now with the missing Kinzo scene and the history of serial murder fiction, I very much hope that she's here to be the seemingly hyper-competent detective who's always gonna get dunked on. I mean, I'm sure it'll backfire considering she's gonna hold a grudge that'll carry between games and she'll do something heinous in the end, but hey, nothing to say that won't backfire on her either to be fair. On the most recent debate and the scene following it, magic really is just the ability to get people to buy into your bullshit isn't it? It's great. Kinzo 100% couldn't have slipped out the door, sure, but he sure as hell could have jumped out the window when nobody was looking, I'd believe that. Even if Dlanor has to be tough when she's out on the job, she seems chill enough as a person at the very least, which sorta matches up with how a lot of the Witch side characters are fairly pleasant outside of the whole "gotta murder you all, sorry" business. Really makes Erika's shittalking and related treatment about her being a doll even worse afterwards, seriously, that kid really is a dick. Also, hey, I recognize some of those voice clips from SiivaGunner rips as well, nice to have that context now too. And last for now, on some of the meta stuff: The whole talk on magic being there to embellish something was interesting, and I'm wondering if that's at least part of why the whole murder mystery is going on. Since some non-human event/device/whatever kills off Battler at the very least at the end of Ep 4, I'm curious if at least some of the goal is to change the context of things overall. If the end result is "everyone on Rokkenjima is dead as of the end of each game", if the process was originally something like "a volcano erupted and took everyone out" like I previously theorized, then changing that via magic to "a Witch killed everyone, but she's willing to let them live on forever in the Golden Land" would be a much kinder thing despite the methods used (well, mostly). It'd certainly explain the very specific bounds on the game as well, if that end event is still fated to happen anyway and using magic to "obscure the result", as it was put, would be bad. Still, I'll likely get reading on more tonight or tomorrow once I get a bit more time to fit in a good chunk of stuff!
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Aug 31, 2023 19:29
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I loving love Erika Furudo and almost made an av featuring her... ... Almost.
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Aug 31, 2023 20:43
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Thinking about how interesting it is how not terrible Jessica ended up as a member of the Ushiromiya family
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Sep 6, 2023 03:41
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One thing about Umineko that I don't think is a spoiler to mention (but I guess I'll still put in tags just because) - you're not really supposed to try and understand exactly what's happening with all the "meta" stuff. It's basically a sort of ambiguous narrative device for exploring the characters and their circumstances. I think that can be worth mentioning, because otherwise someone might end up wasting lots of time trying to come up with some theory about the story's metaphysics.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:03
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preparing for my first read of Umineko by doing the most logical thing, which is of course first reading And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie and actually I've already finished it because I read the entire thing in a single sitting, I could not put it down, holy poo poo it was fantastic! I read a lot of stuff but mystery is one of those genres I don't really pay attention to (thus why I wanted to brush up before Umineko) and was really blown away turns out of the best selling and most beloved books of all time is pretty good
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Sep 9, 2023 01:33
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WarpDogs posted:preparing for my first read of Umineko by doing the most logical thing, which is of course first reading And Then There Were None by Agatha Christie If you want further reading to fully appreciate the murder mystery aspects of Umineko. I highly recommend reading up on the New Orthodox movement in Japanese mystery writing and its break from the Social School (Shakai-ha) This article offers a good précis: https://crimereads.com/the-honkaku-and-shin-honkaku-mysteries-of-seishi-yokomizo/ Of the formative works of the New Orthodox movement, The Decagon House Murders and The Tokyo Zodiac Mysteries are the ones to read in terms of Umineko. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Sep 9, 2023 |
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Sep 9, 2023 01:41
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fez_machine posted:If you want further reading to fully appreciate the murder mystery aspects of Umineko. I highly recommend reading up on the New Orthodox movement in Japanese mystery writing and its break from the Social School (Shakai-ha) Thank you so much for this. I'm about a 1/3 through Decagon House Murders and it's really good. The prose is not what I usually like, but there was a lengthy forward written by Soji Shimada (the author of the latter book you recommended) that explained the reason for it and actually repeated or clarified a lot of the same things in the article It really is very similar to the feeling of playing mystery game or VN. the Decagon House itself has a very Zero Escape feel to it lol WarpDogs fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Sep 10, 2023 |
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Sep 10, 2023 18:42
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Tokyo Zodiac Murders is very good, it's follow up Murder in the Crooked house is far too technical, endless staring at diagrams and doing distances. Never read none of the others Shimada wrote.
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Sep 10, 2023 20:25
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WarpDogs posted:It really is very similar to the feeling of playing mystery game or VN. the Decagon House itself has a very Zero Escape feel to it lol Yeah, the line of influence from Decagon House is pretty much a straight line to the original ADV games and then to every other mystery VN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wOtv-J7tOI
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Sep 11, 2023 01:39
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Beans?
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Sep 11, 2023 03:10
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fez_machine posted:Of the formative works of the New Orthodox movement, The Decagon House Murders and The Tokyo Zodiac Mysteries are the ones to read in terms of Umineko. Finished both of these, and I'm really glad I took this little detour. I feel like I have a much deeper appreciation of mysteries and shin honkaku now I really liked The Decagon House Murders (and actually solved it) despite its unusual character writing and idiosyncrasies. I liked Tokyo Zodiac Mysteries a lot less. The former always had its eye on the prize, something important was happening constantly and every observation was worth considering. Tokyo Zodiac meanwhile dumps name after name on you, and that's on top of really specific detours that go on for far too long. As in, 20 pages worth of longitudes and latitudes, 30 pages worth of astrology, and none of it mattered lol. which I get was the *point*, people's imaginations ran wild which helped the killer get away with it and they used the same trick on the reader. but the misdirection loses its fun when it becomes tedious. you can just trick me with things that are interesting instead of things that are boring!! I also didn't find the killer nearly as interesting or as like... comprehensible lol definitely worth reading both, though, if only for the history and understanding. anyway, onto Umineko
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Sep 15, 2023 05:07
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tell me not to get the one winged golden eagle tattooed on my thigh like beato the elder
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Sep 22, 2023 06:27
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Rockman Reserve posted:tell me not to get the one winged golden eagle tattooed on my thigh like beato the elder do you want to be kinzo's furniture
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Sep 22, 2023 16:10
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Probably too early to start posting CIA documents but I'm choosing to  anywayChapter 1, first crime Starts with a bang by offing 6 people at once, many of who seemed like they'd be major players. Such a large amount (plus the "chosen by the key" hint from the epitaph) definitely invites speculation as to what the pattern or commonalities are - 75% of the adult children are killed. Eva benefits the most - Half the victims are male, the other female. On purpose? - Every survivor is impacted in a surprisingly even way, except perhaps Battler and Maria who got it the worst. Eva / Hideyoshi are less impacted but would also be chief suspects - Main house only. Shannon only killed by bad luck (?) of her being there - Despite so many victims, only Krauss and Shannon are truly exonerated, can't rule out body doubles for the remaining 4 due to smashed heads Seems unlikely one person could do this all. Were they all lured to the shed? How? What's with the smashed heads? You'd do that to conceal identities, but it is much harder to pull that swap off on an isolated island where everyone knows each other and everyone has very different body types. There could be two murderers here. The first is the "basic" murderer, motivated by family drama. Krauss and Gohda team up to kill the adult kids (and Kyrie) then used their big muscles to bring them to the tool shed. Shannon was in wrong place, wrong time. Then the 2nd murderer, the "ritual" (now main) murderer, realizes Krauss and Gohda make 6 to match the epitaph and finishes the job and makes it all part of their ritual. they then smash the faces to conceal part of the crime and make it appear everyone was killed by one person and in the same way. Advanced artificial intelligence recreates possible crime scene tampering:  Current Suspects for Main Murderer Natushi - Has motive for wanting to kill the family + to do so in a way that pleases Kinzo / makes her a true part of the family - Headaches could be a mask for some kind of willful memory loss or blackout crazy stuff - Could have painted the evil symbol with her hands and then went back to her bedroom, thus getting the goop on her own door handle. The charm is just a reader misdirect - She's gotta snap one day, holy poo poo these people are awful to her Kanon - Seems to harbor a lot of resentment - Would have easy access to Kinzo and his derangement / plans - The whole "furniture" thing must have a deeper or more nuanced meaning than the obvious. Implies he's a tool of some kind? Unwilling, maybe? - He's always involved somehow. Discovered people were missing, discovered the places where the bodies were, is one of the few people who could have given Maria the umbrella and note unnoticed, and he may have witnessed Kinzo chucking the ring - This is meta and maybe off base, but feels like there may be a gender reveal that he is actually a she. His voice, stature, some hints in his personality are similar to others in anime / VN in which it's revealed the somewhat feminine boy who isn't as strong or manly is in fact a girl!! Maybe Kanon is Beatrice reincarnated, or Beatrice's granddaughter? The whole orphanage thing is super suspicious
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Sep 22, 2023 19:38
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VostokProgram posted:do you want to be kinzo's furniture kinzo is dead, long live the queen of rokkenjima's night WarpDogs posted:Probably too early to start posting CIA documents but I'm choosing to ihihihihihi
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Sep 22, 2023 22:16
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I thiiiink they're probably just supposed to be tights or something with the design on them, rather than a full on tattoo But I could be wrong
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Sep 22, 2023 23:05
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I don't think its fabric, maybe a temporary tattoo?
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Sep 22, 2023 23:15
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Gaius Marius posted:I don't think its fabric, maybe a temporary tattoo? sounds like some coward poo poo. anyway everyone enjoy the First Day tomorrow, if you’re a rich rear end in a top hat stay away from islands for a few days, you know the drill
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Oct 4, 2023 04:42
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WarpDogs posted:Probably too early to start posting CIA documents but I'm choosing to Ah, new Umineko reader! I'm envious. It's my favorite thing I've ever read/seen/played, without question. One non-spoilery advice - you can generally rely on logic like "this seems impractical" (though there might be some circumstances where something seems impractical but actually isn't due to one thing or another). In the end, everything makes sense given the circumstances of all the "players" involved. I mention this only because other mysteries sometimes have super implausible elements to them, so this is basically just a reassurance that you can write off that possibility. If something seems really implausible, it either isn't the case, or there's some circumstances that actually makes it plausible. Also, it's basically impossible to fully solve in Episode 1; you mainly want to be learning about the various characters (though you can still probably eliminate some possibilities and definitely want to factor everything into your thinking). And one more thing that I personally think is worth mentioning, since it's something that really threw me off when I first read Umineko - you can't really rely on a normal "protagonist gradually hones in on the truth" approach to the mystery like in many other stories. Occasionally characters will propose something that is 100% correct (to an extent that is downright amusing in hindsight), only to be dismissed/brushed off. Anyways, definitely let us know what you're thinking as you continue playing.
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Oct 4, 2023 05:33
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Happy Halloween for Maria! ver. 37
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Oct 4, 2023 23:40
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also bro's...sis'...I LOVE erika furudo
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Oct 10, 2023 23:53
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I just saw this cover of kina no kaori, which released only a couple of weeks ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjYFOPG6RA
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Nov 16, 2023 16:54
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(Umineko ep3 stuff, plausible speculation for future episodes?)Arc Impulse posted:There may also be some extra confusion from how the Red Truths are being phrased in regards to the definition of "human" perhaps not including those deemed as "furniture" by the witches too from way back at the start of the thread but how the gently caress have I missed this so far. there was like half an episode about how furniture is not human and I still assumed the servants counted as human for the purpose of the number of people on the island ymgve fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 02:45
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Get used to being astonished at what you missed
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Jan 20, 2024 03:11
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spoilers for everything: does the non-human-ness of servants actually matter for the count of humans on the island? my memory is that was handled through other means. kanon and shannon counted as one person instead of zero, for example.
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Jan 20, 2024 03:35
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VostokProgram posted:spoilers for everything: full spoilers as well I don't think so, but it at least gets someone thinking in the right direction of a distinction between vocabulary used.
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Jan 20, 2024 03:36
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Also full spoilers Very funny how Erika manages to step on this exact rake 3 times in a row at the end of episode 6
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Jan 20, 2024 03:52
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Umineko 5th episode: Not sure it's just something that's been misinterpreted by the game creator/translator or a clue, but the game says Knox's 3rd rule is that no hidden passages can exist in red, while the actual real-life Knox's rules said that at most one hidden room or passage can exist Also this meta-not-meta section is stupid and confusing. And the bunnies are back. Though I guess: 
ymgve fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jan 20, 2024 |
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Jan 20, 2024 04:45
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ymgve posted:Umineko 5th episode: Not sure it's just something that's been misinterpreted by the game creator/translator or a clue, but the game says Knox's 3rd rule is that no hidden passages can exist in red, while the actual real-life Knox's rules said that at most one hidden room or passage can exist As I recall, any modifications to Knox's decalogue are deliberate decisions by the author, made to simplify application of the rules within the context of the "game board." You can trust the red, can't you?
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Jan 20, 2024 12:32
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ymgve posted:Umineko 5th episode: Not sure it's just something that's been misinterpreted by the game creator/translator or a clue, but the game says Knox's 3rd rule is that no hidden passages can exist in red, while the actual real-life Knox's rules said that at most one hidden room or passage can exist If we're being specific, the full text also includes "I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected."
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Jan 20, 2024 18:51
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Cyouni posted:If we're being specific, the full text also includes "I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected." Well, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo.
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Jan 20, 2024 19:05
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Umineko ep6: I'm not totally finished with the episode yet, but why did Erika have the authority to say the guest room seals were unbroken? Wouldn't the decision whether they were broken or not be entirely the privilege of the game master, Battler, which was what the whole previous part had been about?
ymgve fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Jan 23, 2024 |
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Jan 23, 2024 06:28
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ymgve posted:Umineko ep6: I'm not totally finished with the episode yet, but why did Erika have the authority to say the guest room seals were unbroken? Wouldn't the decision whether they were broken or not be entirely the privilege of the game master, Battler, which was what the whole previous part had been about? She got the duct tape back, didn't she? Which gives her limited but perfect knowledge of the seals. IIRC Battler could break them and thus let her know with zero ambiguity that they're broken, but he's not willing to do so. For reasons.
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Jan 24, 2024 17:36
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LordMune posted:She got the duct tape back, didn't she? Which gives her limited but perfect knowledge of the seals. IIRC Battler could break them and thus let her know with zero ambiguity that they're broken, but he's not willing to do so. For reasons. But Battler wasn’t the one that announced in red that the guest house seals were unbroken. He didn’t get to decide. That whole part was bad and contrived to reach certain plot points. Erika should have been thrown out of the game for claiming she cut the heads off everyone retroactively without ever having announced it in the first place. When that was allowed, any kind of logic went out the window. And anyway, in no game before this was it the witch’s side’s job to explain the mystery. It’s not a logic error to say something was done by a witch, which is what has happened for all previous games.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:11
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ymgve posted:But Battler wasn’t the one that announced in red that the guest house seals were unbroken. He didn’t get to decide. He was. That was the whole point. You can see it here and in the previous update. ymgve posted:That whole part was bad and contrived to reach certain plot points. Erika should have been thrown out of the game for claiming she cut the heads off everyone retroactively without ever having announced it in the first place. Note that it already happened, which is why it could be said in red. It's the equivalent of revealing you already removed the card that makes the magician's trick work while they're presenting it.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:21
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ymgve posted:But Battler wasn’t the one that announced in red that the guest house seals were unbroken. He didn’t get to decide.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:25
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Also Lambda is the referee. You can think of Erika's actions as Bern writing secret orders and giving them to Lambda to resolve.
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Jan 24, 2024 18:30
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Cyouni posted:He was. That was the whole point. You can see it here and in the previous update. That is about the main house room seals, though? I’m talking about the guest house rooms seals edit: This is the exact moment I'm talking about : https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni-Chiru/Update%2064/56-1718.png from https://lparchive.org/Umineko-no-Naku-Koro-ni-Chiru/Update%2064/ ymgve fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 19:06
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