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Rockman Reserve posted:it's pretty hard to identify a body, especially in those days, without a head attached to it. So how do we have a corpse that is identifiable as Shannon with at least half of her face still left show up? The same way Magic happens. Gaius Marius fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 05:07
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Well I totally misremembered the first murder(s), I thought they just found Shannon's body with a big dessert spread or something, I must be remembering another part. But between Rudolf saying he thought he was going to be killed, and his and Kyrie's faces being the ones smashed to unrecognizability, I guess they just shot up towards the top of my suspect list? I don't fuckin' know. e: Gaius maybe re-spoiler that quote from me even though it's an out of context line from a giant pile of mad ramblings and assumptions? Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 05:11
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12) Eva just pointed out that if four people were killed in the dining room and two elsewhere, and everything needed to be cleaned up and all the bodies dragged to the storehouse with their faces mangled, it's probable that more than one person was involved. That could point to Rudolf and Kyrie, but the existence of Kuwadorian and the fact that people just seemed to just appear there from the dining hall in a later episode where people stayed alive a bit longer makes me wonder what the gently caress is up with Rokkenjima? I....don't think it's too crazy to question the nature of the island itself, it's completely remote at the best of times and is completely and utterly cut off from the outside world from October 4th to 5th. Especially when stuff like the secret hidden gold is a factor. In fact, I'm going to go a step further and say that there's enough loving weird stuff going on on a physical level on Rokkenjima with enough big gaping question marks and explicitly misdirecting narratives that it's actually fairly reasonable to start questioning the nature of the setting itself. 13) Doesn't Shannon destroy some kind of protective shrine on the island in one of the episodes' prologues or epilogues somewhere? It's a really brief scene but the characters all notice it on the boat ride in (after a plane ride, because again, Rokkenjima is completely remote from everything). e: and basically the very second I pissed and moaned about the constant crashes and freezes I was having last night they seem to have stopped entirely - I think auto mode is just a bit hosed, mashing left click to advance has left me with a lot fewer issues e2: I'd forgotten, this is probably my favorite scene in Ep 1 and it's so great even on a re-read. One of the surviving characters (....Eva.... ) proposes a pretty solid theory and Battler's just like "...yeah. And that's why I don't like it." Fuckin' idiot teenage Columbo over here not about to thoughtlessly swallow the obvious explanation. What a great protagonist. He's like the anti-Keiichi. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 06:19
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Higurashi EP2 They all head to the festival and Rika immediately goes to talk with the Mayor, very Sus It seems Mion's Grandma made Rika's Gown for the event, obviously Mion took the needle from her for her maybe joke  I find the idea that Rika is Keichi's brother compelling in an intellectual sense, but I can't see how it would work in practice. And unless there's a time travel thing going on he obviously can't be her dad either, and isn't Satoko the one who should be having brother issues? Rika would be having Daddy issues I guess tho, perhaps Satoko sees Keichi as a replacement for her brother and Rika subs Keichi out for her father.  Well she's gonna end up locked in a basement  I don't know what this could mean, that theirs some sort of replacement thing going on. Cloning facility under the town, there aren't time loops but new series of clones being put out. Shion is not Mions twin but another Mion class Clone that was released into this iteration of the simulation to change some variable. From another angle The Games club basically fucks over the Takoyaki man being unable to convince people of his business, meanwhile Keichi is able to Sophist his way into making it seem like a successful auteruship to make lovely Takoyaki. So if the stand is the village of hinamizawa then Keichi is the new blood needed to revitalize the community even as it undergoes one of it's oldest rites. He does nothing to actually improve the Takoyaki, only make it more appealing. Perhaps his role is in PR for the village somehow Okay now the festival goers are just stalking us and doing what the main cast does, maybe they're under some sort of suggestion to follow the MC's. Really we see almost nothing of them through the game, and the few times they matter they seem to be phantasmal. I can't wait for EP8 where Keichi accidentally runs off stage and starts seeing the props everywhere. Keichi I don't think Shion is taking you to see Rika's dance better. drat Keichi you're worse with Women then I was at your age, just chill out bro. Or actually don't because you probably like Mion more and loving around with her sister is usually not a great way to advance a relationship And instead you decide to cockblock Tomitake, c'mon man This Tool shack is probably the command center, Takano is a doctor assigned to watch the subjects but is trying to usurp the project by using the distraction of the festival to break in. She tried the same last time but was forced to abort after Tomitake was killed. Now she's cloned a second Mion called Shion to guide Keichi here. Don't be a loving nerd Keichi, go see the secret ritual stuff With Takano explaining the tale about the Demon's becoming part of the village I've got a few thoughts. Saying they're fifty percent of the village obviously leads us towards thinking that the Reina personality of Rena is the Demon and that Shion is something of a demon form of Mion. I Think what what Ryukushi wants is for us to connect the demon blood and the Reina personality together and use that as an explanation for last episode. So my theory with that is that someone or something is activating the demon blood and causing people to go crazy, but we can be 99% certain that the crazy one in EP1 was Keichii who isn't a member of the village and shouldn't have any latent Demon blood. So A. The whole demon blood thing is a misdirection or B. Keichi is somehow related to the village, and that would make some sense. His dad is just some artist I guess he could've heard about the village when it was getting in the news about the dam and kept it in his pocket for when he needed to move somewhere rural for a project, but he could also be a descendant of the village without Keichi knowing. It doesn't seem like him and his parents even talk that often given how little they're in the actual story. The Spirited away being to eat the humans sounds like BS to me though, they can't even bother putting Octopus in the takoyaki and they're making elaborate rituals to eat people, I think not. Keichi has a real bad habit of get swept up into things too quickly  ! He's real! You're really gonna just take everything Takano says straight huh, not even push back a little. Just because the village might have done poo poo like that doesn't mean they still do. The method of grilling someone in Rome I've never heard of, the thing it resembles is the Brazen Bull which is a torture method supposedly used in the Grecian colonies of Sicily where someone would be locked inside a bronze statue of a bull with a fire lit underneath, and the victim would be roasted alive. It seems like one of those stories that's more about showing how lovely the previous rulers were then something that actually happened. The idea of it comes back with the persecution of early Christians in Rome too. I don't think Rome is really famous for it's executions excepting that one big one. They tended to favor garroting or crucifixion. I've also never heard of the Roman's gutting people like that. The only Romans I think of when I hear intestines is Cato the Younger who cut open his stomach and pulled out his intestines to make sure he'd die before being pardoned by Caesar. And Mark Anthony who stabbed himself in the guts after losing Actium. The whole Witch hunt thing started in the Early Modern Era not in the "Dark Ages" Keichi needs to pick up a book I love Keichi's realization that Japan might also have had it's own dark ages, like homie Japan was hundreds of years of internecine conflict. Yeah poo poo got bad for a minutes Like there's such a mish mash though. They cook and eat people, but they also throw them in the swamp, and they also gang up on outsiders they need to get their mythology straight. Oh no, Shions got the crazy. She's hearing poo poo just like my boy Keichi did. And Tomitake also said he'd heard the banging earlier in the scene. I think they both got it. If that's right maybe our victims this time are Shion and Tomitake. Don't fall for her bullshit Keichi, she isn't kidding she's Insane now. Satoko ended up being missing, that's ominous. And Keichi my dude you don't have to lie to Rika about seeing her dance, just say you got lost trying to find everybody. C'mon son You're the worst liar I've ever seen Keichi. Here I'll fix your poo poo. You tell them you lost them in the crowd. Went up on the hill to try and get a view to get your bearings, and ran into Shion up there but she left. Bam you covered all your bases and lied minimally. They end up burning the body in a drum, supposedly as a message. I'd think it was Tomitake's body, but if they have dental records of them in Hinamizawa then it must be someone else. Maybe Shion, the Nurse seems possible, but she wouldn't have dental records in town cause I think she's relatively new to town. They're Wisdom teeth too so it's probably not one of the younger kids. so Shion, Mion or Rena seem like the most likely victims.
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Jul 1, 2022 22:54
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Gato posted:
Of course you can reject both sides, because there's no reason to believe the red truth to begin with. The box can't be opened because the box never existed. Reject the false dilemma.. The final truth is that Umineko is actually a medical mystery, and neither the fantasy theory about witches, nor the anonymous witch hunt conspiracy theories posted to SeagullChan forums (about secret tunnels leading to incest rape mansions, or prominent political and business figures being secretly dead, or doctors faking death certificates, or how child victims of tragedy had fake birth certificates and never actually really existed, etc) are true You see, it turns out there is a a very real poison that has a sickly sweet smell, which the family was provably exposed to onscreen, which in high doses causes numerous mental problems (including aggressive outbursts and psychotic behavior), as well as visions of hallucinatory butterflies. I am referring, of course, to leaded gasoline - used in, among other things, high performance boat engines and propeller-driven planes, both of which are present in the the first chapter. Known to be toxic from its inception, oil and automotive companies (starting with General Motors and EXXON) deliberately concealed the dangers of this chemical - despite their ethyl lead factory becoming known as the "house of butterflies" because of all the hallucinatory butterflies the heavily-poisoned workers kept seeing. Midgley - credited as the inventor - drank some to 'prove' its safety, then immediately vanished from the public eye for a months of chelation treatment to get the lead back out. In short cause of death: heavy metals present on Rokkenjima. It's fair play because it's a real, documented poison with very specific symptoms which are present, and we are shown the method of exposure right at the beginning of the story. or on a thematic level Of course, lead is just the means, and even Midgley was just a cog. The true murderer - the one that not only killed everyone on the island, but is actively killing everyone on the planet - isn't a shadowy cabal that has to be pieced together on an imageboard based on a series of cryptic and contradictory anonymous messages. Nor is it a supernatural force that can be fought with rituals and spells - they are only a distracting diversion. The real murderer is corporations and - more broadly - capitalism. A killer present in a locked room. A killer both a person and not a person. A killer who can strangle you with invisible hands. The lust for wealth - the constant pursuit of gold and money - is a curse. In short: capitalism is the Golden Witch. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 21:25
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Rockman Reserve posted:5) The fact that Krauss had the gold bar (supposedly - I mean obviously we can't take anything in this episode at face value, particularly conversations Battler wasn't privy to) and still has been unable to solve the epitaph is really interesting. Presumably, he had to at least be trying. I will preface this by saying that I have also only read up to episode 6 other than some random unimportant scenes and don't know any of the solutions to the mysteries. 5) While I doubt Krauss is as stupid as Lambdadelta made him when she's the Game Master, I do think he is definitely much less intelligent than basically every other adult on the island. But the whole scene is pretty suspect considering the Kinzo revelation and how in cahoots he and his wife actually are. 6) I think that Kyrie and Rudolf were helping the murderers in the first episode. There is a term that comes up a lot about 'Kinzo's Roulette' being what decides who is killed. My personal theory is that what this really refers to is that the murders are decided by which of the family members the murderers can persuade to ally with them and carry out the murders. Based on the circumstances the murderers then enact one of several plans to carry out the murders before betraying the ones that allied with them. So Rudolf said that to sell the idea that he'd be killed having been recruited to help the murderer previously. If I'm right, the only ones actually killed are Krauss, Gohda and Rosa with Shannon, Kyrie and Rudolf then carrying out the remaining murders. 8) Maria seems to have a learning disability or at least she is a sort of idiot savant. When she is interested in something she is remarkably sharp and knowledgeable. When she isn't she barely pays attention. IIRC she can also read Latin which is insane for a kid her age. 9) IIRC again, only certain people approach and verify the identities and condition of the corpses. I think Eva actually points out that the injuries could have been faked since no-one could really see them clearly except Nanjo. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jul 2, 2022 |
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Jul 2, 2022 22:11
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Nephthys posted:I will preface this by saying that I have also only read up to episode 6 other than some random unimportant scenes and don't know any of the solutions to the mysteries. Krauss has a vision, when people accuse him of unintelligence they're mistaken. Rather he's thinking so far in the future, to the thousand of intra and extrasolar theme parks the Ushiromiya family will found under his guidance. His family getting murdered by a witch is mere child's play compared to the dream he is working to manifest
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Jul 2, 2022 22:31
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Does Umineko actually (higurashi spoilers, kinda) explain the shards a bit? Or is it all just a witch's game? I'm getting so hung up on the weird Angie stuff.Nephthys posted:9) IIRC again, only certain people approach and verify the identities and condition of the corpses. I think Eva actually points out that the injuries could have been faked since no-one could really see them clearly except Nanjo. They even refer to it as gruesome makeup quite a bit!! Rockman Reserve posted:12) what the gently caress is up with Rokkenjima? I....don't think it's too crazy to question the nature of the island itself, it's completely remote at the best of times and is completely and utterly cut off from the outside world from October 4th to 5th. Especially when stuff like the secret hidden gold is a factor. In fact, I'm going to go a step further and say that there's enough loving weird stuff going on on a physical level on Rokkenjima with enough big gaping question marks and explicitly misdirecting narratives that it's actually fairly reasonable to start questioning the nature of the setting itself. I keep coming back to this, too.
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Jul 7, 2022 06:20
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Rockman Reserve posted:Does Umineko actually (higurashi spoilers, kinda) explain the shards a bit? Or is it all just a witch's game? I'm getting so hung up on the weird Angie stuff. If you're at where I remember you're at, it should have already come up in episodes 4 and 6.
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Jul 7, 2022 08:02
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Cyouni posted:If you're at where I remember you're at, it should have already come up in episodes 4 and 6. 
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Jul 8, 2022 04:42
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Eight murders into Umineko 1 reread, thoughts by scene, spoilers based on up through ep6: Crime Scene 1: This one has to be committed by one or more of the 'victims', or perhaps Eva (and Hideyoshi) with the help of some of the supposed victims? Someone needs to be outside to re-lock the door afterwards so the culprit can't just be hiding in the garden storehouse pretending to be dead. I think it's almost certainly Eva helping from the outside based on some stuff later, both in this episode and others (particularly the Angie stuff). Past that I'm not even going to speculate much - with the typhoon going on outside, the actual deaths (...if any, frankly) could have been caused by pretty much anything, like a silenced pistol. Crime Scene 2: First, a quick recap. Everyone left alive is either in the kitchen or parlor, Genji and Kanon go to fetch Eva and Hideyoshi, find an envelope under the door, unlock and crack the door and hear the TV, and find the chain set. Kanon runs to get Kumasawa and a bolt cutter, Genji runs to get Natsuhi. When Kanon returns, the door has a bloody sigil on it. He cuts the chain and opens the door to find Eva dead on the bed and Hideyoshi dead in the shower, both with a 'thick conical ice-pick' type of athame-esque weapon driven into their foreheads. Theory: Eva concocted at least the initial murders as a way to forcibly retake the Ushiromiya family headship for herself and George. She suspected Kinzo's death ages ago, as did most of the siblings, and uses that suspicion to create a scenario to get rid of Krauss and frame Natsuhi or the servants, using her little receipt-in-Kinzo's-door trick. She works with one of the 'six chosen by the key', probably Shannon due to the stuff I noted earlier about the scorpion charm on Natsuhi's doorknob, maybe forcing her last victim to be Gohda rather than Natsuhi herself, maybe blackmailing Shannon with some promise of approval of her marriage, who knows. They stage the corpse discovery in the garden shed, Eva is the one who locks the outer door and paints the seal of Solomon on the doors. Whoever her accomplice is, though, they meet up with them back in Eva and Hideyoshi's guest room, ostensibly to discuss the next phase of their plan. The accomplice betrays them and hides in the room in the closet until Genji unlocks the door from the outside. When Kanon and Genji rush off, they undo the chain, leave the door slightly cracked open, and reset the chain from the outside with some tool like a slim jim used to unlock cars from the windows (e: the crack was like ten centimeters wide apparently, it would be possible to set the chain from the outside easily) - possible since the door is unlocked. They paint the new sigil and head down to the basement to cremate Mummy Kinzo. Evidence: While it's possible that the culprit for scene 2 was hiding in wait for Eva and Hideyoshi to return to their room, there was no guarantee that they'd do so, and since their eyes were open they seemed to know their murderer. Plus, pretty much the only way the murderer would know when Genji and Kanon left and have a brief window to paint the door would be by hiding in the room itself. Maybe Rudolf suspected he'd be murdered that night because he was approached about the plan and refused to participate. Part of the bigger mystery that I don't have any real explanation for is the reveal at the end of episode 5 that there are only 16 people on the island, and I still have no freaking idea what "it can only be seen with love" means. Also, it's really interesting that a lot of the more fantastical elements that come up in later episodes are called out outright in this one, like Battler thinking things are going so crazy that he's going to start seeing people with goat heads, and Maria saying that the one with teleportation-esque abilities is a demon witch named Gaap. e: also I finally figured out what Natsuhi's sprite reminds me of: 
Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jul 8, 2022 |
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Jul 8, 2022 22:21
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oh my god I think I might get it sorta e: if my theory is right I was very slightly off-base on the meaning of the “two that are close” sacrifice/fight from Ep 6 and why those characters were involved Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 10, 2022 |
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Jul 10, 2022 08:21
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Okay, my theory about the missing 17th person doesn't seem to jive with the witch's third letter in Episode 1, but still....I think I've got most of it... Is there any list of red text by episode? I'm looking for 1-6 in particular, just going through those and trying to figure stuff out that way would likely be easier than just rereading everything.
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Jul 12, 2022 00:51
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Rockman Reserve posted:Okay, my theory about the missing 17th person doesn't seem to jive with the witch's third letter in Episode 1, but still....I think I've got most of it... Here's the one made for the LP
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Jul 12, 2022 01:20
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Perfect, thanks. Now I’ve convinced myself it’s obviously gotta be a witch and Battler is just an obstinate jerk. Ugh, gently caress. e: Just realized the post-Episode TIPS functionality to Kill and Resurrect works in the ????? for Episode 1.  what the gently caress are you talking about you drat witche2: Haha, just noticed George's outfit/shirt in the prologue to Episode 2. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 12, 2022 |
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Jul 12, 2022 02:39
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Okay, thoughts on Episode 1: My theory about the first crime scene with the six in the shed earlier couldn't have been quite right, as the shed was padlocked from the outside afterwards and only Natsuhi had the key. Natsuhi spends nearly all her time with Battler, so by Delanor's rule about the perspective of the protagonist (detective perspective, has kind of a ring to it) she couldn't have gone out to let out any accomplice or anything unless it was right as Battler was talking with the servants and Maria as lunch was being prepared. The lock itself isn't really an issue though - presumably anyone who knew enough about the mansion to find the key to unlock the original padlock could also find a bolt cutter to destroy the chain later. It just means there needs to be someone on the outside....Eva after she claims to have retired to her room? The current theory I was working with (possible major spoilers here, or possibly just mad ramblings) was that Shannon=Jessica=Beatrice. But the third letter appearing in the study when everyone was gathered around seems to have negated that. I'm not quite ruling out sleight-of-hand, though. As for the murder weapons, text from Episode 4 makes it clear that Natsuhi was not killed by a bullet from her own gun, meaning there's at least one more gun on the island. So again, I think that it's pretty reasonable to say that for Hideyoshi and Eva, at least, they were shot with a small-caliber round in the head, and the stakes of purgatory shoved in the wounds. What really has me confused (other than some meta stuff discussed in later episodes about occurrences in the past) is Kanon's death. If we take it as read that one of the previous victims is actually alive, it all makes sense easily. But per Episode 4 again, "All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" I don't really know how to rectify that with literally any theory, unless it's a super specific definition of "survivors" that means "people whose corpses have not been discovered" but not "people who faked their death". I'm also tremendously confused by the Episode 5 contradiction that Battler, whose viewpoint is meant to be objective, sees Kinzo, who is already dead, and cannot be mistaken for anyone else. I thought Ep5 was back to Battler being the Detective so Erika could be a lil murderous shitgoblin?
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Jul 12, 2022 05:31
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Ep6 is the one where it switches back
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Jul 12, 2022 05:43
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Oh, does that mean the contradiction is basically explained by what I mentioned?
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Jul 12, 2022 05:44
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More random thoughts (and at least one question) as long as I'm on a kick here having the dumbest theories ever: First, the question. Please refresh my memory here, as this is something that is bugging me about all my theories - the future we have access to as a reader is when Game 3 takes place - all of the other games are based on bottle letters, right? Is it confirmed that Game 1 is the first bottle letter to show up? Are the rest explicitly written by Featherine/her mortal author persona, or just Game 6? And now onto the rambling.... The entire intro to Game 2 at the aquarium with the discussion about perspective, how fish probably see the tank as the entire world, really reinforces my thinking that seeing Rokkenjima as an island instead of its own kind of closed room is off base. It's a big watery fuckin' cat-box. The scene at the torii shrine with Shannon between that and the actual start of the game makes me wonder a lot, though - she was having her wish at love granted, but still talked about how hellish her life had become and stuff. Could that just be due to Krauss and Natsuhi bearing down on her more? What does being 'furniture' actually mean? What's the Fukuin orphanage got to do with anything - is that just setup for the stuff with Natsuhi and the call from the mysterious person from 19 years ago? The epilogue scroll from 1 makes it clear that the deaths aren't really what they seem - the bodies are all so dismembered that it's (iirc) difficult to actually identify how many there are, and Maria was only identified by a piece of her jaw. Okay, that's fine, that makes the whole "how many people are really on the island" question a lot easier to deal with. But it makes the overall question of "who sent the letter bottles, and why?" much more difficult to answer. If we're going off of the results of Game 3 being what actually transpired as far as we know (at least in terms of Eva being the sole survivor) it doesn't really make any sense for her to send the message at all - however (iirc, again) the epilogue scroll to 1 also claims there were no survivors in the metatextual part outside of the message bottle of the game, so maybe I'm way crazy about this anyway. But what/who could have dismembered everyone? Why send out a message bottle full of lies and half-truths? "Magic only happens if you believe in it" and all that jazz, so what does anyone have to gain by spreading beliefs about a horrible, murderous witch? Beatrice 'exists', I think. Not as a human or a witch, so I'm not sure what the gently caress I'm on about here myself, but even Bernkastel says that she's not a single woman but the overall rules of the game board. During the Game 1 ??????, using the Execute option on her in the TIPS screen makes her mock you but also claim that "you have what could kill her in your hand right now". Like....huh? A computer mouse to exit the game, since she's the rules of the game itself? What the gently caress is up with Battler's sin? It has nothing to do with Beatrice and gets everyone killed. Whatever the reality of Rokkenjima is, did Battler gently caress it up somehow, and the message bottle is someone trying to prevent him from being tarnished through history or something? Like if Rokkenjima is an ocean liner, did he unplug the bilge pump and everyone died? Or it's a spaceship and he vented the oxygen? Those examples don't really seem to jive with the idea that his sin occurred well before he arrived on the island, but it's kind of where my train of thought is heading right now. And what does the fact that he's not Asumu's son have to do with anything? Does that mean he's Kyrie's son, since he's still Kinzo's grandson? Why does Beato want to face him - specifically as Kinzo's grandson - in the games, if she didn't exist to him six years ago? And Kanon whatthefuck every time I think about Kanon I have more questions. The only thing I can think of is that he does not exist at all, due to his death in 1, actions and deaths in other games, and the red text from 4 regarding how he "didn't commit suicide" but "no human or dead person could have killed him". But that leaves the giant, gaping questions of 1) why is he a main character in all the message bottles - again, what is that trying to accomplish, for who, and why? and 2) how does that help Battler escape the locked room in Game 5? I think this is kind of key because (iirc) once Battler accepts Kanon's sacrifice in his staid, that's when he truly understands everything and becomes Game Master for Game 6. Also, one last thing that's kind of bugging me - at the end of Episode 5 Erika says, in red, "Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!! I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!" But she's not - "...Sorry, but... Even if you do join us-" "There are 17 people.". Does that mean that the red text is only infallible if the person using it believes it's true? Or is that just a weird minor error as Game 5 goes completely loving bonkers at the end? As always, sorry for the giant wall of spoiler text about random theories and questions I have. e: 
Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Jul 13, 2022 |
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Jul 13, 2022 04:03
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Rockman Reserve posted:First, the question. I don't believe the game has ever explicitly told you to the answer to this question at this point. For what it's worth I don't think unraveling the mystery depends on that answer, anyway.
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Jul 13, 2022 07:54
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Just as a kind of general comment, the best way to go about "solving" Umineko is to try to ascertain the various characters' circumstances and motivations. If there are any characters whose motivations you have trouble pinpointing, try to think about why that might be. Also, keep in mind that the "magic" scenes still have significance even if they aren't literally occurring, and often tell you more than the red text. Going the route of compiling all red text and trying to solve it like a logic puzzle usually doesn't work out well. It's the sort of thing that's mostly just useful if you're wanting to check a theory that you came up with for other reasons. So you want to look at specific scenes - magic or otherwise - and ask "why am I being shown this?"
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Jul 13, 2022 10:41
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I read Umineko and after the first few bits (maybe all of 1-4) I did the rest playing the game and then 'reading along' with the archived LP thread at the same time. I think my expectations for it were raised a bit too high because while the concepts and characters are fun, the prose isn't great and a whole lot of concepts and scenes drag. Still, reading it 'along' with the thread was fun, and seeing some people get proven right. Reading the whole thing at once with focused readers certainly seemed to go better than the people waiting 6 months in-between episodes with fan theories constantly throwing off the trail. Spoilers for ep7 end in relation to Rockman's questions (do not read this if you are Rockman): The 'Illusions to Illusions' scene at the end of ep7 is pretty interesting in how it answers most of these, and ZiegeDame did a good post explaining the meaning of each of the exchanges. Definitely a highlight both of the game and of reading that LP.
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Jul 13, 2022 13:00
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Rockman Reserve posted:More random thoughts (and at least one question) as long as I'm on a kick here having the dumbest theories ever: So I'll just remind you of two points here: This chapter, Game 4 Game 6 posted:In her latest forgery, 'End', she killed off seven of my relatives, at least during the actual story. No, if you count 'Alliance' and 'Banquet', the other forgeries she's made before now, then she's killed off most of my family in horrible ways, over and over again... Rockman Reserve posted:Also, one last thing that's kind of bugging me - at the end of Episode 5 Erika says, in red, "Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!! I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!" But she's not - "...Sorry, but... Even if you do join us-" "There are 17 people.". Does that mean that the red text is only infallible if the person using it believes it's true? Or is that just a weird minor error as Game 5 goes completely loving bonkers at the end? Note the distinction between "human" and "people".
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Jul 13, 2022 17:42
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bewilderment posted:Reading the whole thing at once with focused readers certainly seemed to go better than the people waiting 6 months in-between episodes with fan theories constantly throwing off the trail. Reading Umineko all at once after it had released every chapter does make for a smoother experience. But there is a certain magic in throwing inane theories at the wall, seeing what sticks. All the while you're waiting months for a competent translation to arrive, so you have to settle for the lovely atlas translation, CAMPHORS and all.
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Jul 13, 2022 19:23
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Reading a mystery novel in poor translation seems like an exercise in frustration.
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Jul 14, 2022 00:58
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DemoneeHo posted:Reading Umineko all at once after it had released every chapter does make for a smoother experience. But there is a certain magic in throwing inane theories at the wall, seeing what sticks. All the while you're waiting months for a competent translation to arrive, so you have to settle for the lovely atlas translation, CAMPHORS and all. Wait what's CAMPHORS, who's CAMPHORS, CAMPHORS clearly killed everyone, goddamn it CAMPHORS what the gently caress you loving CAMPHORS
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Jul 14, 2022 01:23
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who summoned the teacher from persona 4 in here?
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Jul 14, 2022 18:20
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"The fiction will seek the real, The answer will question still" -Coheed and Cambria, The Willing Well I: Fuel for the Feeding End Cyouni posted:So I'll just remind you of two points here: Okay, please refresh my memory - is Angie's book that she shows the weird old nerd guy supposedly one of Maria's notebooks, is it something she received from Featherine, or what? Also, it's really interesting that per Episodes 3-6, if not Games 3-6, the bodies were never found?? I really need to reread 6 when Angie goes to Rokkenjima. Cyouni posted:Note the distinction between "human" and "people". I hate this answer because it makes so much more sense if the clauses are reversed, as far as I can tell. Ytlaya posted:Just as a kind of general comment, the best way to go about "solving" Umineko is to try to ascertain the various characters' circumstances and motivations. If there are any characters whose motivations you have trouble pinpointing, try to think about why that might be. Also, keep in mind that the "magic" scenes still have significance even if they aren't literally occurring, and often tell you more than the red text. Going the route of compiling all red text and trying to solve it like a logic puzzle usually doesn't work out well. It's the sort of thing that's mostly just useful if you're wanting to check a theory that you came up with for other reasons. Okay, going to jot down some of the character notes/motivations I have in my wild scribbling book. Not going to tackle the scenes because there's so many, and they're so wild, that they are hard to track after the fact - at least in the first Game the only truly supernatural seeming scenes are Shannon initially seeing the butterflies, the scene in the boiler room where Kanon is killed after confronting the culprit, and the very end where Beatrice is supposedly revived and duels Natsuhi before the clock strikes midnight. Battler - I have no loving idea, as the seeming protagonist/detective/reader POV character his motivations seem to align with my own - wanting to solve the mystery and survive. His circumstances are completely shrouded in mystery, though - he basically cuts ties with Rudolf when Angie is born/Asumu dies/Rudolf marries Kyrie, and only returns after six years. He has some sin that causes the tragedy. But really, he's a big loving question mark - dude doesn't even know his own mother. Kinzo - Dead as poo poo. His circumstances involve rotting, probably in his loving study, just based on how they keep describing the sickly-sweet smell in there. His motivations are unclear because he's dead before the start of every game and we only 'see' him through the interpretations of message-bottle authors, but he seems to despise his entire family of failures and parasites. Did he write the witch's epitaph? If so, it could have been a proving test for his successor to show that they have some level of understanding that overcomes their basic greed. If he didn't, it was probably written by the culprit, who almost certainly knows he was dead. Rudolf - He wants a share of the family's inheritance, he's strapped for cash, his personal and romantic life is a loving mess and a half. Kyrie - Rudolf's coworker-turned-wife, mother to Angie (I think???) She's from the Sumadera family, which we seem to know very little about other than it's sketchy as hell, and she's a sister (possibly actual twin, iirc?) to the evil lady that is keeping tabs on/hunting Angie in the world of the future. As far as I can tell, she - like most of the other adults - is probably also motivated by the Ushiromiya family money, but also seems to actually care for Rudolf and her family (?) Natsuhi - Checkered past, married into the Ushiromiya family but was never anywhere close to accepted by the family headship. Literally killed a fuckin' baby, near as I can tell. She craves acceptance into the clan not just for the Headship, but seemingly for its own sake, to the point of fantasizing about Kinzo granting her the One-Winged Eagle on her very heart. Desperately trying to keep Kinzo's death a secret so Krauss keeps the family inheritance 7 years after his disappearance when he can be declared dead. Krauss - Dumb, brutish and greedy. Seems to know that the legend of the gold is true on some level. Also trying to cover for Kinzo's death to cover bad investments. Doesn't seem to give two shits about Jessica as far as I can tell. Gohda - Just a simpleton who wants to do good work and get recognized and appreciated for it, as far as I can tell. K-something, mackerel lady - pretty much the opposite of Gohda, wants to slack as much as she can get away with and then some, to the point where she's actually quit several times and been rehired as a servant. Seems to get along great with the kids, very superstitious. Genji - With Nanjo, one of Kinzo's only friends, and certainly the closest. Is helping to cover Kinzo's death. Comes back as Ronove the mystic furniture demon under the employ of Beatrice when things go full supernatural from Game 2 onwards, possibly after the torii shrine seal is broken by Shannon. Motivations unclear, but he seems to be very aware of the rules of the Games. Nanjo - Kinzo's other closest friend and chess rival. Knows Kinzo is dead and is helping to cover it up, so he is inherently untrustworthy, and probably knows the rules of the Games as well on some level despite not explicitly being furniture. Probably motivated by money in the form of a promised bribe from Krauss and Natsuhi. Also I'm just going to assume he sucks at chess as well, since he can't beat a dead guy. Shannon - Interesting case, because of her extremely loving suspicious real name (friggin' Ryukishi07...). Doesn't feel truly human. Wants to escape her life of servitude and experience love, which she might find with George. Breaks the shrine mirror. Came from the Fukuin orphanage like several of the child servants, but has served the Ushiromiya family for much longer than most - she explicitly has enough money to retire to a new life but doesn't. Knows about Kinzo's death, unless I'm totally misremembering. Kanon - seriously Kanon doesn't loving exist, he can't, I'm putting my foot down here. But if he does, his motivation is just becoming more than furniture, becoming a true human, existing. He supposedly loves Jessica, but this really isn't hinted at much at all until a few games in, and could be an embellishment as the legend grows - hell, even in the first Game Jessica herself doesn't recognize her feelings for him until shortly after his death. Jessica - Wants to escape Rokkenjima, and her cloistered life. Understandably dislikes her parents, and also knows Kinzo is dead unless my memory fails me. Again, this makes her pretty untrustworthy on the face of it. Her asthma has gotten worse over the past six years, though whether that's material at all remains to be seen. Seems to be in love with Kanon, but hasn't really expressed it openly like George has with Shannon, and I'm still convinced Kanon isn't fuckin' real. Hideyoshi - strapped for cash, wants George to grow into a reliable young man, seems to believe in love even if Eva strongly disapproves of all the George/Shannon slashfic floating around the ocean in wine bottles. He is on the family register and took the Ushiromiya family name by force after Krauss and Natsuhi sucked so badly for so long. Frankly I wanna believe in Hideyoshi's innocence just because he seems like a cool cheerful uncle, with way less rich people brainworms than the rest of the Ushiromiya family. Still, like all the adults at the family conference, he at the very least strongly suspects Kinzo's already kicked the bucket. Eva - gently caress Eva, I don't even loving know, her survival in Game 3/the world of the future is one of the most confusing points of all for me. Like in Cyouni's LP link above, she's pretty clearly not the actual culprit since if she was, the message bottles don't really make any sense, but she seems way shrewder than her siblings and clearly knows outright that Kinzo is dead - hence her little ploy with the wadded receipt in his study door in Game 1. (That also means the message bottle author knows Kinzo is dead though, natch). She is desperate to steal the Headship out from under Krauss, and laments getting Hideyoshi and George involved in Game 1. She's also strapped for cash. I forget which episode it was that laid out the discussion at lunch and bolded that all the adults were desperate for money, but it kinda bears repeating. She's the first one shown solving the riddle of the Epitaph in one of Featherine's forgeries, but although she survives that Game, she clearly can't get access to the hidden gold in reality until much later, if at all - she sells her dad's occult library because again, she desperately needs money or however the bolded text puts it. So did she truly solve the epitaph at all? George - As the possible heir apparent to the Ushiromiya wealth, he's trying to live up to that. He's also in love with Shannon. But also, he's a sheltered rich heir that is kind of preying on Shannon, whether he recognizes it himself or not. Doesn't seem particularly untrustworthy in the context of the Games themselves, but still kinda sucks in a generic rich heir way - if this was set in the US I can imagine he'd casually bring up his time at Yale at least once a conversation. Also, he stops Battler from really laying into Rosa when she's outright hitting her nine year old daughter, so he's clearly got decorum poisoning something fierce. Rosa - The goddamned wicked witch of the west, vacillates between absentee mother and child abuser, sees Maria as an unnecessary burden, strapped for cash, picked on by all three of her siblings her whole life, just a loving mess of a person. Like all the siblings, strapped for cash and motivated by greed. Occasionally recognizes what a fuckup she is and tries to compensate, like when she makes Sakutarou for Maria. If nothing else, she's kind of suspicious just because of how much she sucks, and how she's probably the only person who knows enough about Maria's witch obsession to plan the whole tragedy around it. Plus, her face is totally mashed up during Game 1, which would make her a prime suspect for some corpse switcharoos....if not for some red text later, I think? Idk, I'll double check later. Maria - Wants to live in a world where she has friends and is loved, and has retreated into fantasies as a coping mechanism. I don't think there's much more there, she's just a deeply traumatized little girl who is desperate for escapism and used as a scapegoat for the tragedy? Beato - Wants Battler to recognize his forgotten sin and understand. Frustrated, sad, and angry. Bernkastel - Wants to escape the endless boredom of infinity. Lambdadelta - Wants to play with and/or eat Bernkastel, idk, witches are loving weird Ronove, Virgilia, Gaap, EVA, Delanor, All Of The Goats - I touched on Ronove above, he's just Magic Genji. Gaap and Virgilia are both massive blank spots in my head. Delanor seems to just want to make sure that the Games are, to some degree, "fair". EVA seems to be a part of Featherine's forgeries to help explain why she survived while still adhering to the rules of Beato's game board. All Of The Goats sort of seem, from Episode 6's tea party/wedding ceremony, to be enthralled members of the Ushiromiya clan. But it doesn't matter, witches aren't real, none of these characters are real, their significance is entirely contextual. At an absolutely random guess, though, I'd say Virgilia is some aspect of Kyrie or perhaps her sister - literally just basing this on the fact that they share a hair color and seem pretty collected and wise - and Gaap is somehow Jessica, maybe, just based on her relative brashness? Or maybe a representation of Rosa as the youngest sibling? Literally just throwing poo poo at the wall to see what sticks here in this case, I read way too much into everything in Umineko and on those theories even I think it's a massive stretch. EVA could be childlike because even though she survives and supposedly solves the epitaph, she doesn't truly understand the full picture. Anyway, this has been a massive wall of spoiler blocks again, and I apologize for it, but I've bookmarked the "my posts in this thread" link as a way to organize my thoughts while showing my whole rear end to everyone about how completely off-base I'll end up being. :P To anyone that actually bothered to read it all, please feel free to refute/argue/clarify any of the points I tried to make. One last thing that bugs me, if Rokkenjima is truly an isolated island as presented, whatever happened there absolutely relied on luck in the form of a typhoon making it a giant closed-room cat box. Something happened, and it was planned far enough in advance for someone to write up at least two full falsified accounts of what happened there, but actually ensuring it was completely cut off from the outside world seems impossible as presented. "If she won't give me the love I came here for, with pen I am armed here to react...." "The flies that flutter fight tonight...." -Coheed and Cambria, The Willing Well I: Fuel for the Feeding End
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Jul 15, 2022 06:06
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Rockman Reserve posted:Okay, please refresh my memory - is Angie's book that she shows the weird old nerd guy supposedly one of Maria's notebooks, is it something she received from Featherine, or what? Regarding the second point, a few points of clarification: As per Episode 1, very few recognizable body parts were findable, one of the few exceptions being a piece of Maria's jaw. The part you mention also occurred during 4, as a note. Rockman Reserve posted:I hate this answer because it makes so much more sense if the clauses are reversed, as far as I can tell. Rockman Reserve posted:Anyway, this has been a massive wall of spoiler blocks again, and I apologize for it, but I've bookmarked the "my posts in this thread" link as a way to organize my thoughts while showing my whole rear end to everyone about how completely off-base I'll end up being. :P To anyone that actually bothered to read it all, please feel free to refute/argue/clarify any of the points I tried to make. I decline to refute or argue because it's funnier that way.
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Jul 15, 2022 07:51
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Rockman Reserve posted:
Rockman Reserve posted:
Rockman Reserve posted:Kyrie - Rudolf's coworker-turned-wife, mother to Angie (I think???) She's from the Sumadera family, which we seem to know very little about other than it's sketchy as hell, and she's a sister (possibly actual twin, iirc?) to the evil lady that is keeping tabs on/hunting Angie in the world of the future. As far as I can tell, she - like most of the other adults - is probably also motivated by the Ushiromiya family money, but also seems to actually care for Rudolf and her family (?) From what I remember of EP4, her sister is explicitly younger, but Kyrie loving off and forcing her to become the head of the family is what makes her so salty
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Jul 15, 2022 08:42
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To reward Rockman's entertaining theoryposting by being tremendously unhelpful: without love, it cannot be seen. If the game were to give you all the pieces you need in one decisive moment, would you be too busy questioning the premise to see the implications through to the end?
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Jul 15, 2022 13:26
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LordMune posted:To reward Rockman's entertaining theoryposting by being tremendously unhelpful: without love, it cannot be seen. lol we've been saying that for awhile Rockman Reserve posted:I still have no freaking idea what "it can only be seen with love" means. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Jul 15, 2022 |
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Jul 15, 2022 13:52
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fez_machine posted:lol we've been saying that for awhile Yeah I’m clearly without love cuz I am freaking stymied. This drives me nuts, having love for the characters (?) just makes it more tragic and raises more questions, at least on the surface. Gaius Marius posted:Virgilla you should probably rewatch her introduction into the gameboard, there's very little mystery in who she "Really" is. Or use purelogic. Whom serves the same purpose of guidance, that she does in the story. Thanks. Re: Virgilia, that kinda reinforces my thinking that she’s sorta Kyrie, since Kyrie is canny as hell. I’ll keep my eyes peeled when she finally shows up (Ep 3 if I remember?) oh Jesus right I remember why I jumped in this thread, I’m cooking and reading ep2 and phone posting and totally forgot my original question: EP2: it mentions Battler left the family register, does him coming to the family conference mean he’s rejoined it? Or is it just because he’s still family even though he’s not in the line of succession? e: Jesus Eva is a snake Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 06:13
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Put this in the OP https://twitter.com/badrandom404/status/1549116053233537026 fez_machine fucked around with this message at 06:21 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 06:19
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fez_machine posted:Put this in the OP i feel attacked
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Jul 20, 2022 06:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNZ0gAvgHL0
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Sep 16, 2022 06:10
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Erika Furudo is one of the best characters ever written
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Sep 25, 2022 05:12
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Nyoro posted:Erika Furudo is one of the best characters ever written I jumped ahead to Episode 5 in my rehash of 1-6 and I still get chills from how brazen her first line is when Battler finally joins the Game. I forget - she's back in 6, right? And it's clear that Bern is going to be game master of 7, does she bring Erika back as a piece in her weird "without love" version? I haven't read 7 yet, just kinda curious.
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Sep 25, 2022 06:51
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okay I’m like two hours into 5 with the voiced this time and between all of my wild notes and theories and the responses to them in this thread give it all so much more context - I feel like if I continue rereading this one a bunch of stuff is going to either kind of fall into place, OR I’ll understand more of why it isn’t and maybe doesn’t matter. I mean I was definitely overthinking every single thing in exactly the wrong way. The intro to 5 literally tells you outright (via Lambdadelta saying something about her game having similar misdirections to Beato’s, and what Ronove says about it…)
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Sep 27, 2022 06:31
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 15:01 |
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Umineko Game 5: I really like Lambdadelta's first move in this game. "Okay, Kinzo's dead, and has been this whole time. But here he is in the rose garden, talking to Natsuhi and Kanon before the family conference!! How can this be?" "Forget about it. Natsuhi is practically delusional." "Aha!! But what about Kanon?" "Pshaw. He's a servant, he's probably under strict orders to indulge her to keep the ~magic~ alive." B: "Ah, Battler's definitely figured out your trick, Lambda. Definitely. Absolutely. Poor you." It's just such a brilliant double-layered misdirection. I still don't quite understand why that's so key to everything, but I really do feel like continuing to reread 5 with the knowledge I have now is seriously helping all the motives and game rules fall into place.
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Sep 28, 2022 03:46
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