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I mighta posted about this in the VN thread but The Willing Well quadrology of songs by Coheed and Cambria seems to have at least some thematic overlap with Umineko, at least on a superficial level - it’s all about suddenly pulling back from the drama that’s going on to show that the God of the story, the Writing Writer who’s playing with all the characters like pieces in a game, is trying to unsuccessfully work out their own trauma. The Crowing, the savior of the metafiction, is haunted by a tragedy that involves everyone in his family and almost everyone he’s ever loved being murdered by forces outside of his control that he barely understands, and the only possible response is to finally understand and embrace a mythological, mortal sin that isn’t even really his fault, that he can barely comprehend. By the end of the songs God himself has relinquished his control over the tragedy he set in motion (by committing suicide-by-cop in the “real world” somewhere in upstate New York) and it’s up to the character to understand the universe he’s stuck in to set things right. Either way that whole album is just full of absolute bangers.
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May 2, 2022 04:51
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i’ve been giving my mom piano lessons over FaceTime calls and have had her learning Birth and Death from Higurashi and she loves it 
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May 21, 2022 03:33
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I know the anime Higurashi Gou/Sotsu is generally poorly regarded around here, and while it has a lot of flaws for sure (including a bunch of graphic violence poo poo that was apparently censored in the broadcast release that I genuinely wish I had never seen watching it on Hulu), I really appreciate how hard it ties some ultra-spoiler stuff together between Higurashi (including the secret ending) and Umineko. I still haven’t finished Umineko but (spoilers for both) on my reread I was just thinking about what a total and complete rear end in a top hat Bernkastel is and Sotsu really bridged that gap - even if it relies on some characters going obsessively and violently nuts. I mean….that’s not really THAT out of left field for the WTC series.
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May 27, 2022 07:14
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Related to GM's post on Higurashi 1 but Gaius do not read this yourself yet, late Higurashi spoilers: wait does Episode 1 mention/hint at Reina? I don't remember that. also just general kvetching here but I always hated the Rena/Reina/Rina naming thing, it tries to be too cute for no real reason I feel. In Japanese are they spelled with different kanji or something? I kinda thought all the Hig characters' names were just katakana but I really don't remember
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Jun 4, 2022 06:31
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Oh yeah I mean I knew the second part there but in romanized/translated text it just comes across as nominative cute wordplay that for some reason grates on me a lot more than all the goroawase stuff.
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Jun 4, 2022 07:05
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I know that it’s mostly a red herring but also at least theoretically solvable, I just went through the first discussion of the Witches Epitaph again in Umineko and was wondering if the second part - the bit about the sacrifices - is some kind of reference to a keypad or if I’m considering it wrong. I don’t really remember what we learn about it after it’s solved in 3(?) and 5, it’s very possible it was actually directly mentioned and I just forgot. Other things I don’t recall - it was actually confirmed somewhere in 4-6 that there is actually another mansion on the island, right? What was its name? Any chance I could see the name in Japanese as well?
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Jun 28, 2022 16:38
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Also, jeez, it's interesting looking back at Umineko 1 (spoilers for up to 6) and realizing how often the narrative explicitly lies to you right from the start. Suuuuuure, Kinzo is screaming into the typhoon, right. Where the gently caress is my red text at.
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Jun 28, 2022 22:57
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Is that a no on my keypad theory then? Also I'd forgotten what a monster (lots of spoilers and conjecture, Umineko) Rosa was, even in Ep 1. IIRC 5 or 6 made it clear that Maria's obsession with magic is just escapism from her absentee, abusive mom - I think Beatrice is maybe just Shannon playacting to cheer her up. The first mysteries in Ep1 are basically who gave Maria the umbrella and note - Kuwabara is the only one who says she's with Shannon when they were preparing the rooms, but Kuwabara has already been shown to cover for the younger servants (and I'm pretty sure she knows about Shannon and George) and Shannon herself is shown to kinda skirt her duties whenever she can get away with it. Plus, Battler wasn't there with the other servants when they discussed who it could have been, and I'm taking every scene without his direct involvement with a huuuuuge grain of salt.
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Jun 29, 2022 04:18
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god I need to run memtest or something, I have no idea what's going on but when I've got Umineko on auto mode it has a really nasty habit of hanging and freezing during scene transitions with a bunch of sound effects, like when the storm starts or people are gazing at the portrait and stuff. e: it seems to be pretty much whenever the scene freezes and the broken glass overlay shows up, idkwtf, it's happening on a second computer now Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Jun 30, 2022 |
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Jun 30, 2022 02:30
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This is on my unmodded Steam copy (I also have it on GOG and modded it there but I usually use Steam for the cloud saves/Steam Deck).Colorspray posted:I have been having the exact same freezing issue running the Umineko mod in my current (re)playthrough. Huh, I'll have to try that next time, thanks!
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Jun 30, 2022 04:12
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I'm doing a fair amount of reading about the battle of Sekigahara lately (pretty much spurred on by finally getting the GMT Sekigahara board game to the table for a play, and it being fantastic) and it's really tripping me up that e.g. there's a character named Hideyoshi and they keep talking about Odawara and stuff.Rockman Reserve posted:Is that a no on my keypad theory then? asking this one more time because I have increasingly convinced myself that A) this is actually the case and B) Battler actually straight-up mentions it and I forgot?
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Jul 1, 2022 02:09
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fez_machine posted:The game just outright goes through the whole puzzle and solution eventually so just keep reading. I know, I know, but as long as I'm re-reading up to 7 anyway and the characters keep discussing it I'm going to poke at it like an old scab anyway. I just wanted to know if I'm on the right track interpreting that part at all.
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Jul 1, 2022 02:21
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drat, thanks though. Ep 1 reread thoughts up to the morning ("the six chosen by the key") but including speculation/knowledge from up through 6: 1) The "sickly sweet smell" from Kinzo's room makes me gag every time they bring it up now that I know he's dead. Did they ever mention what they did with his body? If it's just like, mummified and rotting slowly in there....  2) The umbrella and letter pretty much had to be given to Maria by Shannon. Her alibis are always super flimsy and she does stuff like wander back to the mansion after being assigned to the guest house after a private conversation between her and George, who probably wouldn't bring it up even if it happened at all. She's been with the Ushiromiya family the longest other than Genji and Kumasawa (who is only a part-timer who has quit several times in the past), so Shannon has had the longest to plan this. 3) The scratches outside Natsuhi's door - The scorpion charm is meant to have "protected" Natsuhi, but the only one who knew she had it was Jessica, who gave it to her. But Shannon was there when Maria gave it to Jessica and explained its significance. If Shannon was the murderer then Natsuhi'd almost certainly be on her poo poo-list, because Natsuhi is a huuuuuge jerk. A moderately sympathetic jerk, but still a freaking jerk to the servants, especially Shannon. She could have had access to a master key (or a copy of one), used it to unlock the door, and then backed off from her attack when she saw the charm on the inside of the knob and made the bloody scratches to increase the suspicion of the witch. The only real issue I have with this theory so far is that Natsuhi is an incredibly light sleeper, so opening her door would be risky. Still, as a servant, Shannon could have dosed her after-dinner coffee with some kind of sleeping agent - and if she didn't wake up to the scratches around the knob she probably wouldn't have woken up to someone quietly unlocking and opening her door. 4) Natsuhi's imagined conversation with Kinzo about the one-winged eagle on her heart is just loving sad, oof. Poor woman. (Still, don't be such a gaping rear end in a top hat to your servants!) 5) The fact that Krauss had the gold bar (supposedly - I mean obviously we can't take anything in this episode at face value, particularly conversations Battler wasn't privy to) and still has been unable to solve the epitaph is really interesting. Presumably, he had to at least be trying. 6) Why did Rudolf think he was going to die that night? What tipped him off? Were he and Kyrie only chosen for the initial six because he knew something was up? Everyone else chosen seems to have been a huge jerk to Shannon in particular, with the exception of Rosa who is just a loving monster to Maria (who Shannon obviously seems to really pity....either that, or as an impressionable child she's too useful to ignore. See #8 ). Was Kyrie chosen just because Natsuhi was charmed, or because she's clearly the shrewdest person at the conference? Hell, I've gotta keep reading, I don't even remember if the initial 6 are actually confirmed dead right away. 7) All of the servants seem to be very aware of 'Kinzo's' wager and the appearance of Beatrice, at least the ones wearing the eagle that call themselves 'furniture' all the time. That can't be a coincidence. 8) Maria is shown to have some issues reading and stuff when she's down at the beach with Shannon and the cousins, but is able to read the letter from "Beatrice" without any issue. Could she have been coached or something? She's so impressionable that she might have been coached on how to read the letter and told she's the witch's messenger with the assurance that Beatrice would be able to bring everyone back to life like the epitaph says. 9) My biggest issue with my running theories so far is that when Shannon's body is found, half her face is destroyed. The characters get all hung up on what could have been used to do that, but it was in a garden house or shed or something iirc (I haven't gotten back to that point yet, but I remember it pretty vividly as the point where Stuff Starts Getting Real). But I don't think that's the issue at all, I think the real problem is that Shannon is the clearest suspect, and "her" corpse being found is meant to throw everyone off her trail. But so much of this VN seems to be a riff on the Tokyo Zodiac Murders, and while I still haven't gotten around to finishing that either (sigh...), I thought it was pretty obvious (spoiling this in a separate block to not ruin that book for anyone who hasn't read it and wants to) that the murderer was the woman supposedly used as a sacrifice for Azoth's head....it's pretty hard to identify a body, especially in those days, without a head attached to it. So how do we have a corpse that is identifiable as Shannon with at least half of her face still left show up? 10) I still don't really know how to resolve the "There are only 16 people on the island!" reveal, or the "Battler isn't Battler!"/"Battler is Battler!" stuff. 11) Things obviously get weird as gently caress from episode 2 onwards with all the meta-narrative going on, but the future stuff with Angie/ANGE and the message bottles still throws me off really hard. So, iirc, the initial message bottle claims to come from Maria but obviously can't because she's a nine-year-old and doesn't have strong reading or writing skills, and the other episodes are 'written' by Featherine, who adds even more mystical red-herrings. But if Angie is learning this stuff in the future where Eva survived and found the gold, does that mean that the events are already set in stone and there really is no happy ending for the Ushiromiya family? I'm probably overthinking this a bit (can you blame me, though? Umineko is like, "overthinking things: the novelization") and it's not like Higurashi (Higurashi meta-spoilers) ever really explains Bernkastel and the time loops/"shards". ....okay, it looks like I spoilered everything correctly in the preview, phew. Anyway, sorry for the giant wall of theoryposting, but that's what the thread is for.  Feel free to comment on stuff that I'm misremembering, I read the first six episodes over like a year or so, a couple years back at this point.
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Jul 1, 2022 04:11
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Well I totally misremembered the first murder(s), I thought they just found Shannon's body with a big dessert spread or something, I must be remembering another part. But between Rudolf saying he thought he was going to be killed, and his and Kyrie's faces being the ones smashed to unrecognizability, I guess they just shot up towards the top of my suspect list? I don't fuckin' know. e: Gaius maybe re-spoiler that quote from me even though it's an out of context line from a giant pile of mad ramblings and assumptions? Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 05:11
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12) Eva just pointed out that if four people were killed in the dining room and two elsewhere, and everything needed to be cleaned up and all the bodies dragged to the storehouse with their faces mangled, it's probable that more than one person was involved. That could point to Rudolf and Kyrie, but the existence of Kuwadorian and the fact that people just seemed to just appear there from the dining hall in a later episode where people stayed alive a bit longer makes me wonder what the gently caress is up with Rokkenjima? I....don't think it's too crazy to question the nature of the island itself, it's completely remote at the best of times and is completely and utterly cut off from the outside world from October 4th to 5th. Especially when stuff like the secret hidden gold is a factor. In fact, I'm going to go a step further and say that there's enough loving weird stuff going on on a physical level on Rokkenjima with enough big gaping question marks and explicitly misdirecting narratives that it's actually fairly reasonable to start questioning the nature of the setting itself. 13) Doesn't Shannon destroy some kind of protective shrine on the island in one of the episodes' prologues or epilogues somewhere? It's a really brief scene but the characters all notice it on the boat ride in (after a plane ride, because again, Rokkenjima is completely remote from everything). e: and basically the very second I pissed and moaned about the constant crashes and freezes I was having last night they seem to have stopped entirely - I think auto mode is just a bit hosed, mashing left click to advance has left me with a lot fewer issues e2: I'd forgotten, this is probably my favorite scene in Ep 1 and it's so great even on a re-read. One of the surviving characters (....Eva.... ) proposes a pretty solid theory and Battler's just like "...yeah. And that's why I don't like it." Fuckin' idiot teenage Columbo over here not about to thoughtlessly swallow the obvious explanation. What a great protagonist. He's like the anti-Keiichi. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Jul 1, 2022 |
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Jul 1, 2022 06:19
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Does Umineko actually (higurashi spoilers, kinda) explain the shards a bit? Or is it all just a witch's game? I'm getting so hung up on the weird Angie stuff.Nephthys posted:9) IIRC again, only certain people approach and verify the identities and condition of the corpses. I think Eva actually points out that the injuries could have been faked since no-one could really see them clearly except Nanjo. They even refer to it as gruesome makeup quite a bit!! Rockman Reserve posted:12) what the gently caress is up with Rokkenjima? I....don't think it's too crazy to question the nature of the island itself, it's completely remote at the best of times and is completely and utterly cut off from the outside world from October 4th to 5th. Especially when stuff like the secret hidden gold is a factor. In fact, I'm going to go a step further and say that there's enough loving weird stuff going on on a physical level on Rokkenjima with enough big gaping question marks and explicitly misdirecting narratives that it's actually fairly reasonable to start questioning the nature of the setting itself. I keep coming back to this, too.
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Jul 7, 2022 06:20
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Cyouni posted:If you're at where I remember you're at, it should have already come up in episodes 4 and 6. 
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Jul 8, 2022 04:42
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Eight murders into Umineko 1 reread, thoughts by scene, spoilers based on up through ep6: Crime Scene 1: This one has to be committed by one or more of the 'victims', or perhaps Eva (and Hideyoshi) with the help of some of the supposed victims? Someone needs to be outside to re-lock the door afterwards so the culprit can't just be hiding in the garden storehouse pretending to be dead. I think it's almost certainly Eva helping from the outside based on some stuff later, both in this episode and others (particularly the Angie stuff). Past that I'm not even going to speculate much - with the typhoon going on outside, the actual deaths (...if any, frankly) could have been caused by pretty much anything, like a silenced pistol. Crime Scene 2: First, a quick recap. Everyone left alive is either in the kitchen or parlor, Genji and Kanon go to fetch Eva and Hideyoshi, find an envelope under the door, unlock and crack the door and hear the TV, and find the chain set. Kanon runs to get Kumasawa and a bolt cutter, Genji runs to get Natsuhi. When Kanon returns, the door has a bloody sigil on it. He cuts the chain and opens the door to find Eva dead on the bed and Hideyoshi dead in the shower, both with a 'thick conical ice-pick' type of athame-esque weapon driven into their foreheads. Theory: Eva concocted at least the initial murders as a way to forcibly retake the Ushiromiya family headship for herself and George. She suspected Kinzo's death ages ago, as did most of the siblings, and uses that suspicion to create a scenario to get rid of Krauss and frame Natsuhi or the servants, using her little receipt-in-Kinzo's-door trick. She works with one of the 'six chosen by the key', probably Shannon due to the stuff I noted earlier about the scorpion charm on Natsuhi's doorknob, maybe forcing her last victim to be Gohda rather than Natsuhi herself, maybe blackmailing Shannon with some promise of approval of her marriage, who knows. They stage the corpse discovery in the garden shed, Eva is the one who locks the outer door and paints the seal of Solomon on the doors. Whoever her accomplice is, though, they meet up with them back in Eva and Hideyoshi's guest room, ostensibly to discuss the next phase of their plan. The accomplice betrays them and hides in the room in the closet until Genji unlocks the door from the outside. When Kanon and Genji rush off, they undo the chain, leave the door slightly cracked open, and reset the chain from the outside with some tool like a slim jim used to unlock cars from the windows (e: the crack was like ten centimeters wide apparently, it would be possible to set the chain from the outside easily) - possible since the door is unlocked. They paint the new sigil and head down to the basement to cremate Mummy Kinzo. Evidence: While it's possible that the culprit for scene 2 was hiding in wait for Eva and Hideyoshi to return to their room, there was no guarantee that they'd do so, and since their eyes were open they seemed to know their murderer. Plus, pretty much the only way the murderer would know when Genji and Kanon left and have a brief window to paint the door would be by hiding in the room itself. Maybe Rudolf suspected he'd be murdered that night because he was approached about the plan and refused to participate. Part of the bigger mystery that I don't have any real explanation for is the reveal at the end of episode 5 that there are only 16 people on the island, and I still have no freaking idea what "it can only be seen with love" means. Also, it's really interesting that a lot of the more fantastical elements that come up in later episodes are called out outright in this one, like Battler thinking things are going so crazy that he's going to start seeing people with goat heads, and Maria saying that the one with teleportation-esque abilities is a demon witch named Gaap. e: also I finally figured out what Natsuhi's sprite reminds me of: 
Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jul 8, 2022 |
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Jul 8, 2022 22:21
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oh my god I think I might get it sorta e: if my theory is right I was very slightly off-base on the meaning of the “two that are close” sacrifice/fight from Ep 6 and why those characters were involved Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Jul 10, 2022 |
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Jul 10, 2022 08:21
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Okay, my theory about the missing 17th person doesn't seem to jive with the witch's third letter in Episode 1, but still....I think I've got most of it... Is there any list of red text by episode? I'm looking for 1-6 in particular, just going through those and trying to figure stuff out that way would likely be easier than just rereading everything.
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Jul 12, 2022 00:51
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Perfect, thanks. Now I’ve convinced myself it’s obviously gotta be a witch and Battler is just an obstinate jerk. Ugh, gently caress. e: Just realized the post-Episode TIPS functionality to Kill and Resurrect works in the ????? for Episode 1.  what the gently caress are you talking about you drat witche2: Haha, just noticed George's outfit/shirt in the prologue to Episode 2. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Jul 12, 2022 |
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Jul 12, 2022 02:39
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Okay, thoughts on Episode 1: My theory about the first crime scene with the six in the shed earlier couldn't have been quite right, as the shed was padlocked from the outside afterwards and only Natsuhi had the key. Natsuhi spends nearly all her time with Battler, so by Delanor's rule about the perspective of the protagonist (detective perspective, has kind of a ring to it) she couldn't have gone out to let out any accomplice or anything unless it was right as Battler was talking with the servants and Maria as lunch was being prepared. The lock itself isn't really an issue though - presumably anyone who knew enough about the mansion to find the key to unlock the original padlock could also find a bolt cutter to destroy the chain later. It just means there needs to be someone on the outside....Eva after she claims to have retired to her room? The current theory I was working with (possible major spoilers here, or possibly just mad ramblings) was that Shannon=Jessica=Beatrice. But the third letter appearing in the study when everyone was gathered around seems to have negated that. I'm not quite ruling out sleight-of-hand, though. As for the murder weapons, text from Episode 4 makes it clear that Natsuhi was not killed by a bullet from her own gun, meaning there's at least one more gun on the island. So again, I think that it's pretty reasonable to say that for Hideyoshi and Eva, at least, they were shot with a small-caliber round in the head, and the stakes of purgatory shoved in the wounds. What really has me confused (other than some meta stuff discussed in later episodes about occurrences in the past) is Kanon's death. If we take it as read that one of the previous victims is actually alive, it all makes sense easily. But per Episode 4 again, "All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!" I don't really know how to rectify that with literally any theory, unless it's a super specific definition of "survivors" that means "people whose corpses have not been discovered" but not "people who faked their death". I'm also tremendously confused by the Episode 5 contradiction that Battler, whose viewpoint is meant to be objective, sees Kinzo, who is already dead, and cannot be mistaken for anyone else. I thought Ep5 was back to Battler being the Detective so Erika could be a lil murderous shitgoblin?
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Jul 12, 2022 05:31
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Oh, does that mean the contradiction is basically explained by what I mentioned?
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Jul 12, 2022 05:44
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More random thoughts (and at least one question) as long as I'm on a kick here having the dumbest theories ever: First, the question. Please refresh my memory here, as this is something that is bugging me about all my theories - the future we have access to as a reader is when Game 3 takes place - all of the other games are based on bottle letters, right? Is it confirmed that Game 1 is the first bottle letter to show up? Are the rest explicitly written by Featherine/her mortal author persona, or just Game 6? And now onto the rambling.... The entire intro to Game 2 at the aquarium with the discussion about perspective, how fish probably see the tank as the entire world, really reinforces my thinking that seeing Rokkenjima as an island instead of its own kind of closed room is off base. It's a big watery fuckin' cat-box. The scene at the torii shrine with Shannon between that and the actual start of the game makes me wonder a lot, though - she was having her wish at love granted, but still talked about how hellish her life had become and stuff. Could that just be due to Krauss and Natsuhi bearing down on her more? What does being 'furniture' actually mean? What's the Fukuin orphanage got to do with anything - is that just setup for the stuff with Natsuhi and the call from the mysterious person from 19 years ago? The epilogue scroll from 1 makes it clear that the deaths aren't really what they seem - the bodies are all so dismembered that it's (iirc) difficult to actually identify how many there are, and Maria was only identified by a piece of her jaw. Okay, that's fine, that makes the whole "how many people are really on the island" question a lot easier to deal with. But it makes the overall question of "who sent the letter bottles, and why?" much more difficult to answer. If we're going off of the results of Game 3 being what actually transpired as far as we know (at least in terms of Eva being the sole survivor) it doesn't really make any sense for her to send the message at all - however (iirc, again) the epilogue scroll to 1 also claims there were no survivors in the metatextual part outside of the message bottle of the game, so maybe I'm way crazy about this anyway. But what/who could have dismembered everyone? Why send out a message bottle full of lies and half-truths? "Magic only happens if you believe in it" and all that jazz, so what does anyone have to gain by spreading beliefs about a horrible, murderous witch? Beatrice 'exists', I think. Not as a human or a witch, so I'm not sure what the gently caress I'm on about here myself, but even Bernkastel says that she's not a single woman but the overall rules of the game board. During the Game 1 ??????, using the Execute option on her in the TIPS screen makes her mock you but also claim that "you have what could kill her in your hand right now". Like....huh? A computer mouse to exit the game, since she's the rules of the game itself? What the gently caress is up with Battler's sin? It has nothing to do with Beatrice and gets everyone killed. Whatever the reality of Rokkenjima is, did Battler gently caress it up somehow, and the message bottle is someone trying to prevent him from being tarnished through history or something? Like if Rokkenjima is an ocean liner, did he unplug the bilge pump and everyone died? Or it's a spaceship and he vented the oxygen? Those examples don't really seem to jive with the idea that his sin occurred well before he arrived on the island, but it's kind of where my train of thought is heading right now. And what does the fact that he's not Asumu's son have to do with anything? Does that mean he's Kyrie's son, since he's still Kinzo's grandson? Why does Beato want to face him - specifically as Kinzo's grandson - in the games, if she didn't exist to him six years ago? And Kanon whatthefuck every time I think about Kanon I have more questions. The only thing I can think of is that he does not exist at all, due to his death in 1, actions and deaths in other games, and the red text from 4 regarding how he "didn't commit suicide" but "no human or dead person could have killed him". But that leaves the giant, gaping questions of 1) why is he a main character in all the message bottles - again, what is that trying to accomplish, for who, and why? and 2) how does that help Battler escape the locked room in Game 5? I think this is kind of key because (iirc) once Battler accepts Kanon's sacrifice in his staid, that's when he truly understands everything and becomes Game Master for Game 6. Also, one last thing that's kind of bugging me - at the end of Episode 5 Erika says, in red, "Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!! I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!" But she's not - "...Sorry, but... Even if you do join us-" "There are 17 people.". Does that mean that the red text is only infallible if the person using it believes it's true? Or is that just a weird minor error as Game 5 goes completely loving bonkers at the end? As always, sorry for the giant wall of spoiler text about random theories and questions I have. e: 
Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Jul 13, 2022 |
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Jul 13, 2022 04:03
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DemoneeHo posted:Reading Umineko all at once after it had released every chapter does make for a smoother experience. But there is a certain magic in throwing inane theories at the wall, seeing what sticks. All the while you're waiting months for a competent translation to arrive, so you have to settle for the lovely atlas translation, CAMPHORS and all. Wait what's CAMPHORS, who's CAMPHORS, CAMPHORS clearly killed everyone, goddamn it CAMPHORS what the gently caress you loving CAMPHORS
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Jul 14, 2022 01:23
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"The fiction will seek the real, The answer will question still" -Coheed and Cambria, The Willing Well I: Fuel for the Feeding End Cyouni posted:So I'll just remind you of two points here: Okay, please refresh my memory - is Angie's book that she shows the weird old nerd guy supposedly one of Maria's notebooks, is it something she received from Featherine, or what? Also, it's really interesting that per Episodes 3-6, if not Games 3-6, the bodies were never found?? I really need to reread 6 when Angie goes to Rokkenjima. Cyouni posted:Note the distinction between "human" and "people". I hate this answer because it makes so much more sense if the clauses are reversed, as far as I can tell. Ytlaya posted:Just as a kind of general comment, the best way to go about "solving" Umineko is to try to ascertain the various characters' circumstances and motivations. If there are any characters whose motivations you have trouble pinpointing, try to think about why that might be. Also, keep in mind that the "magic" scenes still have significance even if they aren't literally occurring, and often tell you more than the red text. Going the route of compiling all red text and trying to solve it like a logic puzzle usually doesn't work out well. It's the sort of thing that's mostly just useful if you're wanting to check a theory that you came up with for other reasons. Okay, going to jot down some of the character notes/motivations I have in my wild scribbling book. Not going to tackle the scenes because there's so many, and they're so wild, that they are hard to track after the fact - at least in the first Game the only truly supernatural seeming scenes are Shannon initially seeing the butterflies, the scene in the boiler room where Kanon is killed after confronting the culprit, and the very end where Beatrice is supposedly revived and duels Natsuhi before the clock strikes midnight. Battler - I have no loving idea, as the seeming protagonist/detective/reader POV character his motivations seem to align with my own - wanting to solve the mystery and survive. His circumstances are completely shrouded in mystery, though - he basically cuts ties with Rudolf when Angie is born/Asumu dies/Rudolf marries Kyrie, and only returns after six years. He has some sin that causes the tragedy. But really, he's a big loving question mark - dude doesn't even know his own mother. Kinzo - Dead as poo poo. His circumstances involve rotting, probably in his loving study, just based on how they keep describing the sickly-sweet smell in there. His motivations are unclear because he's dead before the start of every game and we only 'see' him through the interpretations of message-bottle authors, but he seems to despise his entire family of failures and parasites. Did he write the witch's epitaph? If so, it could have been a proving test for his successor to show that they have some level of understanding that overcomes their basic greed. If he didn't, it was probably written by the culprit, who almost certainly knows he was dead. Rudolf - He wants a share of the family's inheritance, he's strapped for cash, his personal and romantic life is a loving mess and a half. Kyrie - Rudolf's coworker-turned-wife, mother to Angie (I think???) She's from the Sumadera family, which we seem to know very little about other than it's sketchy as hell, and she's a sister (possibly actual twin, iirc?) to the evil lady that is keeping tabs on/hunting Angie in the world of the future. As far as I can tell, she - like most of the other adults - is probably also motivated by the Ushiromiya family money, but also seems to actually care for Rudolf and her family (?) Natsuhi - Checkered past, married into the Ushiromiya family but was never anywhere close to accepted by the family headship. Literally killed a fuckin' baby, near as I can tell. She craves acceptance into the clan not just for the Headship, but seemingly for its own sake, to the point of fantasizing about Kinzo granting her the One-Winged Eagle on her very heart. Desperately trying to keep Kinzo's death a secret so Krauss keeps the family inheritance 7 years after his disappearance when he can be declared dead. Krauss - Dumb, brutish and greedy. Seems to know that the legend of the gold is true on some level. Also trying to cover for Kinzo's death to cover bad investments. Doesn't seem to give two shits about Jessica as far as I can tell. Gohda - Just a simpleton who wants to do good work and get recognized and appreciated for it, as far as I can tell. K-something, mackerel lady - pretty much the opposite of Gohda, wants to slack as much as she can get away with and then some, to the point where she's actually quit several times and been rehired as a servant. Seems to get along great with the kids, very superstitious. Genji - With Nanjo, one of Kinzo's only friends, and certainly the closest. Is helping to cover Kinzo's death. Comes back as Ronove the mystic furniture demon under the employ of Beatrice when things go full supernatural from Game 2 onwards, possibly after the torii shrine seal is broken by Shannon. Motivations unclear, but he seems to be very aware of the rules of the Games. Nanjo - Kinzo's other closest friend and chess rival. Knows Kinzo is dead and is helping to cover it up, so he is inherently untrustworthy, and probably knows the rules of the Games as well on some level despite not explicitly being furniture. Probably motivated by money in the form of a promised bribe from Krauss and Natsuhi. Also I'm just going to assume he sucks at chess as well, since he can't beat a dead guy. Shannon - Interesting case, because of her extremely loving suspicious real name (friggin' Ryukishi07...). Doesn't feel truly human. Wants to escape her life of servitude and experience love, which she might find with George. Breaks the shrine mirror. Came from the Fukuin orphanage like several of the child servants, but has served the Ushiromiya family for much longer than most - she explicitly has enough money to retire to a new life but doesn't. Knows about Kinzo's death, unless I'm totally misremembering. Kanon - seriously Kanon doesn't loving exist, he can't, I'm putting my foot down here. But if he does, his motivation is just becoming more than furniture, becoming a true human, existing. He supposedly loves Jessica, but this really isn't hinted at much at all until a few games in, and could be an embellishment as the legend grows - hell, even in the first Game Jessica herself doesn't recognize her feelings for him until shortly after his death. Jessica - Wants to escape Rokkenjima, and her cloistered life. Understandably dislikes her parents, and also knows Kinzo is dead unless my memory fails me. Again, this makes her pretty untrustworthy on the face of it. Her asthma has gotten worse over the past six years, though whether that's material at all remains to be seen. Seems to be in love with Kanon, but hasn't really expressed it openly like George has with Shannon, and I'm still convinced Kanon isn't fuckin' real. Hideyoshi - strapped for cash, wants George to grow into a reliable young man, seems to believe in love even if Eva strongly disapproves of all the George/Shannon slashfic floating around the ocean in wine bottles. He is on the family register and took the Ushiromiya family name by force after Krauss and Natsuhi sucked so badly for so long. Frankly I wanna believe in Hideyoshi's innocence just because he seems like a cool cheerful uncle, with way less rich people brainworms than the rest of the Ushiromiya family. Still, like all the adults at the family conference, he at the very least strongly suspects Kinzo's already kicked the bucket. Eva - gently caress Eva, I don't even loving know, her survival in Game 3/the world of the future is one of the most confusing points of all for me. Like in Cyouni's LP link above, she's pretty clearly not the actual culprit since if she was, the message bottles don't really make any sense, but she seems way shrewder than her siblings and clearly knows outright that Kinzo is dead - hence her little ploy with the wadded receipt in his study door in Game 1. (That also means the message bottle author knows Kinzo is dead though, natch). She is desperate to steal the Headship out from under Krauss, and laments getting Hideyoshi and George involved in Game 1. She's also strapped for cash. I forget which episode it was that laid out the discussion at lunch and bolded that all the adults were desperate for money, but it kinda bears repeating. She's the first one shown solving the riddle of the Epitaph in one of Featherine's forgeries, but although she survives that Game, she clearly can't get access to the hidden gold in reality until much later, if at all - she sells her dad's occult library because again, she desperately needs money or however the bolded text puts it. So did she truly solve the epitaph at all? George - As the possible heir apparent to the Ushiromiya wealth, he's trying to live up to that. He's also in love with Shannon. But also, he's a sheltered rich heir that is kind of preying on Shannon, whether he recognizes it himself or not. Doesn't seem particularly untrustworthy in the context of the Games themselves, but still kinda sucks in a generic rich heir way - if this was set in the US I can imagine he'd casually bring up his time at Yale at least once a conversation. Also, he stops Battler from really laying into Rosa when she's outright hitting her nine year old daughter, so he's clearly got decorum poisoning something fierce. Rosa - The goddamned wicked witch of the west, vacillates between absentee mother and child abuser, sees Maria as an unnecessary burden, strapped for cash, picked on by all three of her siblings her whole life, just a loving mess of a person. Like all the siblings, strapped for cash and motivated by greed. Occasionally recognizes what a fuckup she is and tries to compensate, like when she makes Sakutarou for Maria. If nothing else, she's kind of suspicious just because of how much she sucks, and how she's probably the only person who knows enough about Maria's witch obsession to plan the whole tragedy around it. Plus, her face is totally mashed up during Game 1, which would make her a prime suspect for some corpse switcharoos....if not for some red text later, I think? Idk, I'll double check later. Maria - Wants to live in a world where she has friends and is loved, and has retreated into fantasies as a coping mechanism. I don't think there's much more there, she's just a deeply traumatized little girl who is desperate for escapism and used as a scapegoat for the tragedy? Beato - Wants Battler to recognize his forgotten sin and understand. Frustrated, sad, and angry. Bernkastel - Wants to escape the endless boredom of infinity. Lambdadelta - Wants to play with and/or eat Bernkastel, idk, witches are loving weird Ronove, Virgilia, Gaap, EVA, Delanor, All Of The Goats - I touched on Ronove above, he's just Magic Genji. Gaap and Virgilia are both massive blank spots in my head. Delanor seems to just want to make sure that the Games are, to some degree, "fair". EVA seems to be a part of Featherine's forgeries to help explain why she survived while still adhering to the rules of Beato's game board. All Of The Goats sort of seem, from Episode 6's tea party/wedding ceremony, to be enthralled members of the Ushiromiya clan. But it doesn't matter, witches aren't real, none of these characters are real, their significance is entirely contextual. At an absolutely random guess, though, I'd say Virgilia is some aspect of Kyrie or perhaps her sister - literally just basing this on the fact that they share a hair color and seem pretty collected and wise - and Gaap is somehow Jessica, maybe, just based on her relative brashness? Or maybe a representation of Rosa as the youngest sibling? Literally just throwing poo poo at the wall to see what sticks here in this case, I read way too much into everything in Umineko and on those theories even I think it's a massive stretch. EVA could be childlike because even though she survives and supposedly solves the epitaph, she doesn't truly understand the full picture. Anyway, this has been a massive wall of spoiler blocks again, and I apologize for it, but I've bookmarked the "my posts in this thread" link as a way to organize my thoughts while showing my whole rear end to everyone about how completely off-base I'll end up being. :P To anyone that actually bothered to read it all, please feel free to refute/argue/clarify any of the points I tried to make. One last thing that bugs me, if Rokkenjima is truly an isolated island as presented, whatever happened there absolutely relied on luck in the form of a typhoon making it a giant closed-room cat box. Something happened, and it was planned far enough in advance for someone to write up at least two full falsified accounts of what happened there, but actually ensuring it was completely cut off from the outside world seems impossible as presented. "If she won't give me the love I came here for, with pen I am armed here to react...." "The flies that flutter fight tonight...." -Coheed and Cambria, The Willing Well I: Fuel for the Feeding End
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Jul 15, 2022 06:06
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fez_machine posted:lol we've been saying that for awhile Yeah I’m clearly without love cuz I am freaking stymied. This drives me nuts, having love for the characters (?) just makes it more tragic and raises more questions, at least on the surface. Gaius Marius posted:Virgilla you should probably rewatch her introduction into the gameboard, there's very little mystery in who she "Really" is. Or use purelogic. Whom serves the same purpose of guidance, that she does in the story. Thanks. Re: Virgilia, that kinda reinforces my thinking that she’s sorta Kyrie, since Kyrie is canny as hell. I’ll keep my eyes peeled when she finally shows up (Ep 3 if I remember?) oh Jesus right I remember why I jumped in this thread, I’m cooking and reading ep2 and phone posting and totally forgot my original question: EP2: it mentions Battler left the family register, does him coming to the family conference mean he’s rejoined it? Or is it just because he’s still family even though he’s not in the line of succession? e: Jesus Eva is a snake Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 06:13
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fez_machine posted:Put this in the OP i feel attacked
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Jul 20, 2022 06:29
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNZ0gAvgHL0
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Sep 16, 2022 06:10
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Nyoro posted:Erika Furudo is one of the best characters ever written I jumped ahead to Episode 5 in my rehash of 1-6 and I still get chills from how brazen her first line is when Battler finally joins the Game. I forget - she's back in 6, right? And it's clear that Bern is going to be game master of 7, does she bring Erika back as a piece in her weird "without love" version? I haven't read 7 yet, just kinda curious.
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Sep 25, 2022 06:51
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okay I’m like two hours into 5 with the voiced this time and between all of my wild notes and theories and the responses to them in this thread give it all so much more context - I feel like if I continue rereading this one a bunch of stuff is going to either kind of fall into place, OR I’ll understand more of why it isn’t and maybe doesn’t matter. I mean I was definitely overthinking every single thing in exactly the wrong way. The intro to 5 literally tells you outright (via Lambdadelta saying something about her game having similar misdirections to Beato’s, and what Ronove says about it…)
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Sep 27, 2022 06:31
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Umineko Game 5: I really like Lambdadelta's first move in this game. "Okay, Kinzo's dead, and has been this whole time. But here he is in the rose garden, talking to Natsuhi and Kanon before the family conference!! How can this be?" "Forget about it. Natsuhi is practically delusional." "Aha!! But what about Kanon?" "Pshaw. He's a servant, he's probably under strict orders to indulge her to keep the ~magic~ alive." B: "Ah, Battler's definitely figured out your trick, Lambda. Definitely. Absolutely. Poor you." It's just such a brilliant double-layered misdirection. I still don't quite understand why that's so key to everything, but I really do feel like continuing to reread 5 with the knowledge I have now is seriously helping all the motives and game rules fall into place.
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Sep 28, 2022 03:46
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episodes 4, 5 and 6 were kind of jumbled in my head but 5 is so crazy and good, now that I’m rereading it. It really beats you over the head about focusing on the wrong things. Even knowing a pretty key secret (I think?) and knowing that the “why” is more important than the “how” I’m still not seeing the bigger picture. My only specific thought right now is about That Phone Call: I don’t think it matters at all. Most of the family is connected to sketchy organizations, at least one of which we see being hired to dig up dirt on the head family immediately before this scene. Even assuming it’s real - and I’m not checking the red text page just yet to remember if it’s ever stated - it could probably be from anyone trying to put pressure on Natsuhi to try to get her to break and spill the secret about Kinzo. I guess I do have one more thought, about everything to this point overall: It gets more and more overt with its game metaphors, and everything makes a weird kind of sense superficially when you look at it that way. But that doesn’t answer the “why” I’m stuck with.
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Sep 29, 2022 03:22
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wait gently caress wait I might actually have an idea about the epitaph I need a loving notebook gently caress
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Sep 29, 2022 05:21
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Rockman Reserve posted:wait gently caress wait I might actually have an idea about the epitaph I need a loving notebook gently caress Seriously I'm like 90% sure I'm suddenly on the right track, I understand why they needed an - -atlas - - to solve it, I think I understand why Eva was looking for a six-character reading, I just don't have the knowledge of Japanese (or a helpful witch) to put the pieces together. gently caress. E: the whole discussion about whether sweetfish is a good hint at all makes it so much harder. If it was more literal I would think it’s Oshika or Ishinomaki, which has a harbor called ayukawa. Since Rosa argues it wasn’t a very good hint, though, I’ve gotta figure out what else it’s getting at. It could just mean a clean, inland freshwater river, in which case I’m maybe looking for a town with 村 in its name on the shore of a clean river?. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 13:55
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Yeah, I finished Episode 6....in February of 2021. Then I started what I had planned as a reread of 1-6 to try to piece it together before Episode 7 just gives it all away, but.... even though it's much more informative and interesting with more context, the "setup" for Game 1 takes loving forever and I ended up putting it down for months just like I did on my initial readthrough. Eventually I did manage to power through, and have been re-reading 2 and 5 kinda switching off depending on what machine I have handy at the time. So I've had the big reveal about the true number of People on the island from the end of 5, and seen Battler's game, though I don't remember much of it at all, and a lot of the later episodes blend together a bit for me. Does the closed room that Battler is stuck in that he trades places with/sacrifices Kanon-who-does-not-quite-exist to escape happen in 5 or 6? I thought it was 5 but it hasn't come up yet. That's one of the biggest things I want to re-examine, since as I stated I really don't understand how that's such a lynchpin to Battler solving everything and becoming the Game Master/Head. I also really want to reread 3 for more context around Eva and Rosa solving the riddle. Could someone also refresh my memory about the stuff Ange says about Mariage Sorciere in episode 4, just in general terms? I should reread them all, but they're all so tremendously long, and 4 in particular is just brutally tragic and yet kind of boring to read through at parts. e: I really like the assertion in 5 that Bernkastel is able to do so much so effectively, including things like just getting her game piece on the board, by using her ability as the Witch of Miracles to loop through shards until she succeeds, which is kind of dark and hilarious in context. Just imagining hundreds of timelines where Erika jumps off the boat and starts swimming in the wrong direction and drowning before finally making it to Rokkenjima and acting all smug like nothing happened. e2: I know the answer doesn't matter as much as the reason behind the question but is my wild guessing re: the epitaph closer to the truth, at least? I feel like if I knew more about what sweetfish/ayu/鮎 are evocative of I'd have an easier time. Rockman Reserve fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Sep 30, 2022 |
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Sep 30, 2022 01:36
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Ytlaya posted:That's in 6. Ehhhhhhh, I've heard that it gives away enough that I'm still going to keep poking at the question arcs and 5-6 for a bit - the game just absolutely calls the reader out far too many times to just shrug and keep reading without trying to engage it deeper. Now, more random thoughts and questions: Regarding that being in episode 6: dang it, that means that I don't really remember any of the context around it at all. Is that when Erika kills everyone since she's not the detective, and something about it corners Battler with the red text? Spoilery question about 7, which I haven't read yet: I have a volume of the manga for 7 that I haven't dared to look at, but it has Some Other Dude (Will, I think I've managed to pick up from osmosis?) on the cover, and during the ?????? of episode 6 Bernkastel is asking to set up the game differently for Featherine, 'without love', to see if she understands it all. Does that mean that it's a different setting/cast entirely? Just kind of curious. Also, general question that ties back to Higurashi (so do not read this Gaius Marius): does Umineko have an episode that drops the kinetic VN format, like Episode 8 of Higurashi? Speaking of which, I kind of love that episode/its format but only in retrospect through Umineko and Higurashi Gou/Sotsu, where it's more clear that Bernkastel is weaving together Fragments to find a way to survive. And speaking of the above, I still am kind of blown away how well it ties Higurashi and Umineko together, and how subtly Ryukishi07 hinted at it in the secret ending of Higurashi. In fact, all of Higurashi makes a lot more sense as a Witch's Game like Umineko - Gou/Sotsu is just Lambdadelta using a different piece. Back to explicit Umineko theoryposting, this time about the characters and their motivations. Okay, Kanon's motivations are murky but I can accept that because he is Sir Not Appearing In This Film. Maybe "accept" is the wrong word, more like "shrug and put an asterisk next to his name until I know why he's on the game board at all". Jessica's motivations are hazy if it's anything other than 'being accepted anywhere, whether by her family or at school or anything' but it's hard to tell if there's anything deeper beyond just Rich Outcast Teenage Girl stuff. If Gohda's motivations are anything deeper than a sense of pride from doing his job well, then I've totally missed them. Kinzo's motivations are to find a worthy successor to the Headship and explain the secret of the witch's gold. Beatrice's motivation is to force Battler to understand something, but "what" is kind of the whole point of everything as far as I can tell. Past that, everyone's motivations and characterizations are pretty clear, I think.....except, honestly, Battler himself. In the context of the Games he's obviously trying to destroy the Illusion of the Witch and find a path to a future that doesn't leave Ange alone and miserable for twelve years before getting killed on Rokkenjima, but if you take that as given, everything else about him is a big question mark. Was there a deeper reason for him leaving the family? Why is he back after six years? Why doesn't he - or at least the Player manifestation of him - know who his mother is, and how does that tie into whatever Beato is trying to make him realize? It's all so frustrating, I feel like (with a game board with more locations) I could pretty much run a game of this that's at least superficially correct in Tragedy Looper (which is basically When They Cry: The Board Game), but I still have no understanding of why the rules work that way.
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Sep 30, 2022 04:41
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double post because I have a quick question - is Play-Asia legit? I wanna grab a JP switch prepaid code to get Umineko for it. My Japanese is really weak/bad, but I'm going to be stuck on a lot of busses and planes for the next week or so and I could use the practice anyway. And, lol, that title image for the JP bundle sure looks like it would be spoilery if I could fit the pieces together at all. What all is included in that bundle? The question and answer arcs and the fighting game, sure, but it looks like there's some extra stuff?
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Sep 30, 2022 04:59
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....is Beato a terrible idea for a Halloween costume? My whole schtick is characters from obscure books or movies, so I'm not really worried about being 'recognizable', haha.
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Sep 30, 2022 22:13
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 08:04 |
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Umineko, surface level kind of thoughts: Okay it’s a huge tragedy that stems from the conspiracy to hide Kinzo’s death, specifically between Natsuhi, Krauss and Shannon, going wrong and getting found out by Eva. Most of the scenes with Kinzo are really Krauss as the acting Headship, outside of scenes where that’s denied by something red. The revival of Beatrice he is looking for is a way to legitimately end up as the heir and Head, while escaping from the curse of Kinzo’s shadow that he finds himself stuck with. Is it mentioned when the epitaph was written (specifically before or after 1984) anywhere?
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Oct 2, 2022 17:52
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