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Right, I posted about having just finished up some stuff in the other VN thread, so here's a big wall of text on things. Spoilers up through the end of Umineko episode 3, including the Tea Parties throughout. I'll break it up a bit and tag each section for handiness since I've not posted thoughts on any of the prior episodes either. Episode 3 general thoughts: drat, that was a ride alright. Up until the very last scene I was convinced that Beato was gonna be an "ally" of sorts up until near the end, helping Battler to sort out and unmask a succession of other Golden Witches before finishing off their game at the very end. Guess I was told on that point though, and it'll teach me not to trust a witch (except maybe Ange (and maybe-maybe Maria?)). I'd totally read the North Wind and the Sun strategy as just trying to help ease up on Eva Beatrice's cruelty on the Witch Side, rather than being something as long-term and underhanded as what we got. But yeah, it had a lot of good scenes like the game vs Eva Beatrice and Kyrie/Rudolf fighting the Sisters. Like as of the moment I'm of the opinion that anything magical that's presented from the Witch Side as story has to be "plausible" within that magical point of view, since it could be reality based on the outcome of the main game, so those two being able to fight the stakes off like that using non-magical means is impressive, as it's something I could see them as being able to do no matter what. After all that and Ange's introduction, I'm very excited to see how much of an absolute mess episode 4 turns out to be. Thoughts on the Ushiromiya family and the other characters: So from what I've read so far, the impression I'm getting is that everyone in the family aren't as bad as how they were initially presented, and are generally just normal people outside of the wealthy aspect (I'll not say "good" considering some of the poo poo that the adults went though and have done though). Except Kinzo, gently caress Kinzo, everything so far seems to stem from how badly he's treated his family since forever, and bringing everyone together for the family meeting really brings out the absolute worst in each of them. Like as of episode 3 the one I'm most suspicious of is George, considering how he's been shown as much more "perfect" compared to everyone else so far (as even the kids have their own issues, like Battler's relationship with his parents, Jessica's health and succession troubles, and Maria's own hyperfixations and personality swings). Ange has just been introduced as of the ??? scene, so not much I can say on her as of just yet either. Battler is stubborn enough to warp the very fabric of reality around him, but he's a good kid at least considering how easily he's empathized with everyone these past few episodes As for the servants and Nanjo, I definitely have far less of a read on those as of the moment, especially the older ones. Shannon and Kanon mostly seem to be fine since they've been fleshed out and presented as more relatable/human so far, but Ronoue has been real stoic so far in comparison. Kumasawa is definitely an odd one out given the back and forth work history with Kinzo, and I could definitely see her knowing more than she lets on if her being/housing Vergillia on the Witch Side also paints her as Beatrice's mentor/servant in some way on the Human Side, depending on how closely things have to parallel each other there. Nanjo I still can't say as much on so far, as the most expression he's shown has been when he gets somewhat panicky in episode 3 when Battler points out that he and Eva are the only two without an alibi near the end. As for the witches, I'm definitely enjoying Beato as a character, especially when her and Battler really get to play off of each other (though Dread of the Grave playing in most of those scenes also helps). Falling for the whole setup of episode 3 didn't help get more a grasp of her actual character beyond the usual ahaha.wav and BATTOOOORA this time though, since I can't be wholly certain how much of that could have potentially been some of Beatrice the Human showing through vs Beatrice the Golden Witch, in case inheriting that title comes with some sort of downside or curse alongside the Endless Magic. As the Epitaph mentions to "put the witch to sleep for all time" as part of it, I could definitely see her being released from that role and free to live as a human as part of the overall ending depending on if any of it was real. Vergillia I'll wait to see more of here for the same reason, considering her acting completely differently in the ending. For the witch's furniture, the Seven Sisters have been fun but aren't too deep as characters individually so far, and I'm not too into the Chiesters for the same reason as of now. Ronove is good fun as well though considering he seems to be the closest to a neutral party in this entire thing so far, and I can definitely see him working against Beato for her own good if losing this game is indeed the "better" option. Thoughts on the mysteries in general: So far in terms of the murders, I don't have any concrete information on what went on in episodes 1 and 2 anyway, as 3 has been a bit more generous in terms of the chain of closed rooms having a few more points to poke holes at, as well as Eva Beatrice needing to come up with so much Red Truth to dig herself out of a hole which also helped narrow some things down as well. So while I have some ideas for episode 3, I'll probably come back to the others later. I have absolutely zero idea about the Epitaph beyond what Eva "revealed" in episode 3, which seems to be about the key being a word which is 6 characters long. I'm guessing this is some level of kanji>katakana>English conversion due to Eva trying to figure out how to express it in that length, but I don't have much of an idea on that for now either, especially if geography does factor in heavily as that is not one of my strong points. The 8-digit number on the parlor door however I am like 99% certain is gonna be a phonetics puzzle, based on grabbing other words which sound like how the numbers are pronounced. Ryuukishi07 has used that trick before in other works, and the "when spoken" part of George's dead profile really helps push that angle. I'm limited in what I can do for it right now since while I can look up words, stringing them together into something that makes sense is a different story since I don't know enough on Japanese for that, especially if trying to figure out which (if any) are actually double digits upward. The 7 is very likely the 'shichi' reading which 死地 also shares as an example, being linked to death/a place to die/an inescapable situation, linking into it being a "spell to a small Golden Land" also mentioned in George's profile, but I may be wrong on it even depending on how everything links together. Thoughts on the episode 3 mystery specifically: My thoughts on this can be summed up as "a whole mess". I do believe that Eva was the murderer in the case of Rosa and Maria, but maybe not for anyone else beyond them. I don't see her as having had anything to do with the first set of murders as that was the impetus for her solving the Epitaph and having actual motive from then on. I also don't see her being able to keep any level of poker face if she'd have been involved in any of her family's death, even if she was only present at them. As such, my current theory is that another party initiated the first twilight, Eva carried out the second twilight, and the original party then carried out the remaining twilights. As for the who for the other deaths, my current guess is Kanon and Shannon, assisted by Nanjo. As for the why, not quite sure just yet. While "Kanon" and "Shannon" are named as dead by the witches, it's also been established that at the very least these two have furniture names due to coming from Kinzo's orphanage. As such, if they were to give up their role as furniture, the personas of "Kanon" and "Shannon" would be dead and they could live on as Sayo and whatever-Kanon's-original-name-is. Kumasawa has a katakana name as well (as I found out from the TIPS) so she could technically be in on it as well for the same reason, but I doubt it in this Fragment at least. This would also explain the chain of closed rooms, as if every other location were set up and locked, an already locked parlor could simply be entered via a window that was left open, and that window then locked from the inside with the appropriate victim and keys (in a similar way to what Battler points out with the second floor window that George supposedly exited from). There may also be some extra confusion from how the Red Truths are being phrased in regards to the definition of "human" perhaps not including those deemed as "furniture" by the witches too, but it's mainly the name thing in this case I'd wager. Ronove stopped Beato from trying to say that none of the deaths were "accidental" as well, so I'm also guessing that at least one of the two found something out by accident which led to their carrying all of this out. It was never stated that there were only "corpses" in the room either, only "victims", which is a much broader definition that could include something like "a victim of Kinzo's awful treatment, pretending to be dead". If Nanjo was also in on things he could easily obfuscate things and proclaim them as dead, especially since the manner of death was never confirmed beyond "not by suicide or trap" and "they were homicides" which leaves a lot of wiggle room for faking one compared to the later stake deaths. As for why I think it's the both of them, it would make the Kyrie/Rudolf/Hideyoshi murder more plausible with multiple people, and would explain why Jessica is listed as missing by the end rather than dead, as "Kanon" may have helped her escape in some form while Sayo was getting rid of Nanjo as a loose end. Hideyoshi's dead profile mentioned someone who should already be dead as well, and while that could be Kyrie surviving longer than expected as it's mentioned she wasn't staked in a vital area, it would also apply to those from the first twilight here as well. It still doesn't help much with the other episodes however, beyond me looking back on things with more hindsight later on. But yeah, very much enjoying myself so far with episode 3 being my favorite from what I've read to date, gonna enjoy getting real confused from here on out. Very interested in hearing what other music gets used in future as well, as the soundtrack in general has been amazing from the start here, at least compared to Higurashi taking a few episodes to throw in the bigger tracks.
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May 2, 2022 01:42
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So, I ended up finishing Episode 4 of Umineko there today, though somewhat accidentally since I mistakenly kept thinking "oh, I guess it's nearly over" at multiple points and blitzing through a big chunk at once thanks to that. Very much enjoyed the Question Arcs, and while I definitely have ideas on some things as a whole, I'll probably take a read through sections of prior arcs over on the LP Archive to think things through on certain points and events (and try to post a before/after of what I was thinking on the events of previous episodes since, whoops, I fell asleep yesterday when I meant to post some mid-Ep 4 thoughts.). Some loosely organized general overall thoughts on a few things, covering spoilers from all of Episode 4 of Umineko, including the post-episode Tea Party/??? segments: So while I have ideas on the events taking place in the Episodes themselves, some of the overarching points relating to the mystery are certainly a lot less solid so far, mostly in regards to Beatrice, especially in regards to there being multiple versions of her per Battler's test in Ep 4. Are they both different aspects of the legend? Is one somehow Kinzo's view of Beatrice dragged back as part of the resurrection ceremony? At least one of the versions of Beatrice supposedly "didn't exist" as of 6 years ago and Bern describes her as being a personification of the rules of the world, so I'm guessing one is some sort of personification of the legend of the Golden Witch based on the Epitaph. The Epitaph was hung up while Battler had left the family, so if that revision birthed a "new" Beatrice, it could explain that point in regards to when she began to exist at least. The other thing I'm leaning towards a bit more on what one of the identities of Beatrice is, is that of a volcano though. Her last mystery posed at the end of Ep 4 talked about how Battler was alone on the island, the last one alive, yet on how she was still "there" and would kill him. I'd initially thought the "accident" which covered up most of the events of the 4th/5th was an explosive/incendiary device set up by Kinzo as part of the "the Witch gets the Ushiromiya's everything when I die" portion of the legend, but I don't see Beatrice's identity being tied to something as mundane as that. Considering the island having the old Japanese shrine on it, chances are that it was built there to pacify a volcano/ward against eruptions in the past. Thinking on the Ep 4 Tips mention on one of her magics being able to make "precious metals manifest", a quick confirmation Google also shows that volcanic activity is also associated with gold deposits, which would explain how Kinzo could manage to come into such a large amount of it so secretly if the island also has some sort of mine in addition to the mansions. The ??? section seems to imply that the "Who am I?" question is one of two hidden moves Beatrice had from the whole arms scene though, so I'm unsure on what her last trick is here either, so that'll be a fun surprise in future episodes I'd wager. On Battler's sin, I'm guessing this is linked to his leaving the family hurting Maria in some form, since Beato seems incredibly serious about this despite not being directly involved per her red truth on the matter, though not necessarily directly as Maria can barely remember Battler by the time they meet again. Ange also seems to think her actions in the past were at least part of what darkened Mariage Sorciere, so if this is also linked to that (or his leaving being the source of Ange doing so), that in turn could lead to the events on Rokkenjima claiming everyone's lives in the end. I'm guessing it's also tied to the identity of Maria's Beatrice too, since handwriting confirms they had wrote in Maria's grimoire/diary as well as the letters sent out to the families of those on the island during the incident. Those letters confirm that they were involved in some way, so it's not too much of a stretch to think that they planned the destruction of the Ushiromiya family due to whatever hurt Maria, making them the real mastermind. As to the mysteries of who the culprit is, I'm thinking that while the "main" killer may change in each episode, that most (if not all) of Kinzo's servants/friends present are in on it depending on the episode, at least for the initial 6 deaths. Genji is the main point of contact to what is effectively a dead man at the start of each episode, the deaths of "Kanon" and "Shannon" who have real names seeming to be one of the main loopholes in the witch's red truths, Nanjo being in the perfect position to misdiagnose deaths, and Kumasawa and Genji both being vessels for an ally of the witch's side in the fantasy sections. Gohda is the only one I can't say for certain due to his time employed compared to the others, though it's possible he could drug or poison foods in his position as well. While I had some initial thoughts that it could be a plan of Kinzo's to do one last, major act of spite towards his family after his death, I very much he's involved as a perpetrator though, as I couldn't see him setting up any sort of monetary reparation for the victims as laid out in the Ange sections. The guy wouldn't even give his family anything, never mind the family of those he doesn't even consider human. I'm guessing there is at least one main mastermind considering that at least one of Battler's actions from 6 years ago set things in motion, and I doubt that could lead to enough variation that multiple different people planned these events per Fragment, but I'll wait until I get re-reading some stuff to mull on that a bit longer and confirm a few things to see if they line up with what I'm thinking. But yeah, in summary, voyager witches are messed up, and I very much can't wait until Battler and Beato manage to pull off their miracle to screw things up for them, whatever it may be.
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Jun 4, 2022 05:39
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So, I put off getting to the second half of Umineko for a while for a bunch of reasons, but I'm making a start back on it now again. As such I'm throwing more thoughts in here now so I can hopefully post anything else in smaller snippets afterwards, which'll cover up where I'm currently through, up until the first deaths in Episode 5. It'll probably be a bit scattered and vague though, just so I don't do a super big wall of spoilertext. On the murders, I'm of the impression that even if not directly responsible Shannon is the main instigator each time around, as the red text about people being "dead" and named individually is easy obfuscation for "Shannon the furniture is dead, Sayo the person lives on" type cases alongside the number of people argument. On that note, even though he was on the wrong track and pressing on something relating to servant names being inherited instead, I did like the touch that Battler managed to land a decent blow with his blue argument that touched on this point at the end of Episode 4. At least some other servants are in on this from the start, Kanon and Nanjo being the main two considering the "zombie Kanon" case and incorrectly pronounced deaths being one of the main methods behind obscuring the truth behind the murders. As to the "why" for this, I'm not 100% sure on any specifics here yet, but I'm guessing that she's an illegitimate daughter of Kinzo's, like anyone from the orphanage he pulls from, hence his connection to it and why he was so willing to provide an heir from there prior to Jessica's birth. There's also the issue of Battler having forgot something important from a few years back which is directly leading to these deaths, and that event could be the time of the accidental "death" of Shannon as furniture if this is some type of long game, as I don't think there's been any red text on when that happened as of yet. So as of now, those are the things I'll probably be keeping in mind while reading, see if anything pops up to support/deny it. The above is honestly not taking into account the Witch's side though, and I'm guessing that Beatrice is like some sort of composite being made manifest from multiple legends like "Beatrice, the murderer", "Beatrice, the source of the gold", "Beatrice, Kinzo's love", "the woman named Beatrice who died on the beach", etc, especially as she was talking to "herself" at one point when pressing Battler about what he's forgotten. So depending on if Battler accepts magic as real or not in the end, she'll either continue to exist as she is or not based on if he fully disproves every magical happening. I'm guessing this'll be the one player choice in the end, and will determine if magic is real and everyone gets to live on in the Golden Land, or if Witches are fake and he's just confirmed that everyone is dead, since they were murdered after all.. On the "hows" trick-wise for things I have okay enough grasps on, in Episode 1 I'm guessing that Shannon isn't dead as the red text mainly covers the corpses of unknown identify and her face isn't fully obscured, so she won't count among that number. From there, she'd be free to carry out more actions behind the scenes. Episode 3 is similar, where she can have the murders carried out, the other rooms locked, then seal herself inside the parlor with the key used to do so and pretend to be dead using Nanjo's help. I can't remember if there's red text saying the doors can't be locked from the inside or not, but even if so, the door could be locked from outside and the room entered via the window and then that window locked from there to complete the chain. On the Epitaph: considering Battler got prodded into solving it, there's definitely more on it confirmed so far now, even if the specifics aren't called out. I was sure it would be an atlas in an earlier episode since that's a book that most people would be familiar with (since it was unlikely to be "satisfying" as a puzzle if it was some in-game specific text only revealed later down the line) and aware it was likely gonna be a wordplay thing on top of that, but yeah, I don't think I'd have the requisite Japanese knowledge either language-wise or geography-wise to even have a shot of getting this unaided. Still, I'm guessing the answer is plugged into the "quadrillion" epitaph at the chapel in order to reveal a path to "Kuwadorian" and the gold, but I couldn't even begin to guess at what that answer is, just that I recognise that "quadrillion" would be rendered as Kuwadorian at least very roughly if done via Katakana, which is why that lines up in my head. On the Episode 5 specifics so far, this one seems to be a real mess. Like, I'm guessing this is mainly the game which is set up to show what bad moves Beatrice intentionally makes since it has entirely different people setting it up. I'm guessing events will still be "within reason" as to what could happen on the island but will be just absolutely off the rails compared to what Beatrice would do, like with killing off all of the kids bar Battler at the start. But yeah, most importantly of all, even though I've not even see a full episode's worth of stuff from her yet: Furudo Erika may be the detective, she may not be the culprit, but she sure as hell is gonna be stirring poo poo up to get kicks out of it, drat.
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Aug 30, 2023 03:35
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Okay, yeah, so like one more scene on from where I was and I can agree, Erika is a dickhead. This stuff'll cover up through like partway through Episode 5, "Reasoning and Inspection", past the talk in Beatrice's garden after the study debate. But yeah, first thing's first, Erika really is such a little poo poo, considering how she blows off stress with Dlanor's subordinates, drat. Considering Battler's already put her in her place twice now with the missing Kinzo scene and the history of serial murder fiction, I very much hope that she's here to be the seemingly hyper-competent detective who's always gonna get dunked on. I mean, I'm sure it'll backfire considering she's gonna hold a grudge that'll carry between games and she'll do something heinous in the end, but hey, nothing to say that won't backfire on her either to be fair. On the most recent debate and the scene following it, magic really is just the ability to get people to buy into your bullshit isn't it? It's great. Kinzo 100% couldn't have slipped out the door, sure, but he sure as hell could have jumped out the window when nobody was looking, I'd believe that. Even if Dlanor has to be tough when she's out on the job, she seems chill enough as a person at the very least, which sorta matches up with how a lot of the Witch side characters are fairly pleasant outside of the whole "gotta murder you all, sorry" business. Really makes Erika's shittalking and related treatment about her being a doll even worse afterwards, seriously, that kid really is a dick. Also, hey, I recognize some of those voice clips from SiivaGunner rips as well, nice to have that context now too. And last for now, on some of the meta stuff: The whole talk on magic being there to embellish something was interesting, and I'm wondering if that's at least part of why the whole murder mystery is going on. Since some non-human event/device/whatever kills off Battler at the very least at the end of Ep 4, I'm curious if at least some of the goal is to change the context of things overall. If the end result is "everyone on Rokkenjima is dead as of the end of each game", if the process was originally something like "a volcano erupted and took everyone out" like I previously theorized, then changing that via magic to "a Witch killed everyone, but she's willing to let them live on forever in the Golden Land" would be a much kinder thing despite the methods used (well, mostly). It'd certainly explain the very specific bounds on the game as well, if that end event is still fated to happen anyway and using magic to "obscure the result", as it was put, would be bad. Still, I'll likely get reading on more tonight or tomorrow once I get a bit more time to fit in a good chunk of stuff!
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Aug 31, 2023 19:29
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