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Gaius Marius posted:Don't make me laugh, while you girls were out clubbing and going to festivals I was out studying the bat. I lol'd
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May 24, 2022 10:04
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On one hand it sorta bugs me that Higurashi seems to receive so much more focus/attention than Umineko, but on the other hand it'd be kind of awkward to insert additional Umineko episodes (since there's basically a continuous metanarrative across them, while Higurashi episodes are generally completely stand-alone). Higurashi is still really good, though. It's just not "unquestionably my favorite and most personally meaningful fictional media" like Umineko is. Lots of people connect with Umineko for reasons related to gender/identity (and for good reason), but in my case I feel like it fundamentally understands how people deal with suffering/hopelessness, and just generally has empathy towards people, even if those people are lovely. And I also really like the way it adds some sort of meaning/beauty to what was ultimately a pure tragedy without any sort of good ending (this is also why I hate the bizarre "Yasu is still alive as Hachijo" interpretation). Like "even if your life is hopeless and ends in tragedy, and even if you die without anyone else understanding, it still matters." And telling that sort of story in a way that is often goofy/bombastic instead of "serious and somber"...I can't think of anything else like it.
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May 28, 2022 04:45
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Nyoro posted:Umineko is actually the greatest thing ever written, I'm actually surprised I got to see the peak of human storytelling in my lifetime I'm not nearly enough well-read to make any sort of conclusion like this, but it just has a specific message and way of communicating that message that I think is very special and unique. Like I love House at Fata Morgana (probably my second favorite VN), but the way it tells its stories of tragedies is far more...normal, I guess, even though it's really well done. Chev posted:As stated as soon as the third arc (and implied earlier if you pay attention) Umineko's structure affords the existence of extra and "missing" episodes so it's not the obstacle it might seem. It does, but it would either have to be fundamentally separate from the existing episodes (which have an ongoing metanarrative) or sort of inserted between any if episodes 1-4. Higurashi mostly has zero continuity between its episodes. I'd like to see characters like (spoiled because you can maybe infer something from this) Hideyoshi or Jessica explored more in hypothetical extra Umineko episodes. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 22:51 on May 28, 2022 |
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May 28, 2022 22:20
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Just as a kind of general comment, the best way to go about "solving" Umineko is to try to ascertain the various characters' circumstances and motivations. If there are any characters whose motivations you have trouble pinpointing, try to think about why that might be. Also, keep in mind that the "magic" scenes still have significance even if they aren't literally occurring, and often tell you more than the red text. Going the route of compiling all red text and trying to solve it like a logic puzzle usually doesn't work out well. It's the sort of thing that's mostly just useful if you're wanting to check a theory that you came up with for other reasons. So you want to look at specific scenes - magic or otherwise - and ask "why am I being shown this?"
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Jul 13, 2022 10:41
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Rockman Reserve posted:episodes 4, 5 and 6 were kind of jumbled in my head but 5 is so crazy and good, now that I’m rereading it. It really beats you over the head about focusing on the wrong things. Even knowing a pretty key secret (I think?) and knowing that the “why” is more important than the “how” I’m still not seeing the bigger picture. It's not clear to me from this, but did you finish Episode 6 yet? By the very end of Episode 6, some things should be relatively clear. Episode 7 directly reveals a lot, so post-episode-6 is probably the best time to go all-in on theorizing if you're trying to figure stuff out on your own. There's parts in your earlier posts that are on the right track, but to quote any specific part might give away too much. So the most I'll do is just repeat this - focus on the characters/topics that seem confusing or difficult to figure out. Cyouni posted:I decline to refute or argue because it's funnier that way. Yeah, I didn't respond to anything specific because there's not really any way to do so without unintentionally revealing something.
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Sep 29, 2022 23:45
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Rockman Reserve posted:Does the closed room that Battler is stuck in that he trades places with/sacrifices Kanon-who-does-not-quite-exist to escape happen in 5 or 6? That's in 6. Kind of a broad structural comment that isn't really a spoiler and contains zero plot info but is in tags just to be safe - People talk about Episode 7 revealing a lot, and that's true, but it doesn't explicitly explain everything. There's still plenty of stuff to think about after finishing all 8 episodes, so don't hesitate too much to start Episode 7 on the basis of "I still want to figure things out." It would be extremely difficult to reach a comprehensive understanding of things based off of the first 6 episodes alone.
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Sep 30, 2022 01:52
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Rockman Reserve posted:Ehhhhhhh, I've heard that it gives away enough that I'm still going to keep poking at the question arcs and 5-6 for a bit - the game just absolutely calls the reader out far too many times to just shrug and keep reading without trying to engage it deeper. By all means take your time thinking about it; I just wanted to clarify that it's not exactly a situation where everything is revealed (I was confused about some pretty major things until spending a long time thinking about stuff after finishing the entire game). Rockman Reserve posted:Spoilery question about 7, which I haven't read yet: I have a volume of the manga for 7 that I haven't dared to look at, but it has Some Other Dude (Will, I think I've managed to pick up from osmosis?) on the cover, and during the ?????? of episode 6 Bernkastel is asking to set up the game differently for Featherine, 'without love', to see if she understands it all. Does that mean that it's a different setting/cast entirely? Just kind of curious. I haven't seen if anyone else replied to this yet, but I think it's best to go into Episode 7 completely blindly. It's probably tied as my favorite episode. Rockman Reserve posted:Also, general question that ties back to Higurashi (so do not read this Gaius Marius): does Umineko have an episode that drops the kinetic VN format, like Episode 8 of Higurashi? Speaking of which, I kind of love that episode/its format but only in retrospect through Umineko and Higurashi Gou/Sotsu, where it's more clear that Bernkastel is weaving together Fragments to find a way to survive. And speaking of the above, I still am kind of blown away how well it ties Higurashi and Umineko together, and how subtly Ryukishi07 hinted at it in the secret ending of Higurashi. In fact, all of Higurashi makes a lot more sense as a Witch's Game like Umineko - Gou/Sotsu is just Lambdadelta using a different piece. (very minor Umineko/Higurashi "gameplay" comments)There are parts with minor interaction in episode 8. Kind of similar to what I remember from Higurashi 8, where you're just selecting which thing to do and not really make any meaningful choices. Rockman Reserve posted:Back to explicit Umineko theoryposting, this time about the characters and their motivations. Okay, Kanon's motivations are murky but I can accept that because he is Sir Not Appearing In This Film. Maybe "accept" is the wrong word, more like "shrug and put an asterisk next to his name until I know why he's on the game board at all". Jessica's motivations are hazy if it's anything other than 'being accepted anywhere, whether by her family or at school or anything' but it's hard to tell if there's anything deeper beyond just Rich Outcast Teenage Girl stuff. If Gohda's motivations are anything deeper than a sense of pride from doing his job well, then I've totally missed them. Kinzo's motivations are to find a worthy successor to the Headship and explain the secret of the witch's gold. Beatrice's motivation is to force Battler to understand something, but "what" is kind of the whole point of everything as far as I can tell. Past that, everyone's motivations and characterizations are pretty clear, I think.....except, honestly, Battler himself. In the context of the Games he's obviously trying to destroy the Illusion of the Witch and find a path to a future that doesn't leave Ange alone and miserable for twelve years before getting killed on Rokkenjima, but if you take that as given, everything else about him is a big question mark. Was there a deeper reason for him leaving the family? Why is he back after six years? Why doesn't he - or at least the Player manifestation of him - know who his mother is, and how does that tie into whatever Beato is trying to make him realize? Can't really comment on most of this without potentially indirectly implying something, but I will comment on one thing. One of the ways Umineko "deceives" the reader is that there are a handful of mysteries that you're made to think are a bigger deal than they actually are. At the very least, I think you should finish doing Episode 6 again before thinking too much further. Even though it's good, I think Episode 5 can be a bit confusing and, in some ways, misleading. Nyoro posted:I feel a lot in common with her because I, too, suffer from myriad gender problems and intense self hatred since birth. It's hard to know where the personal bias comes in when I start trying to decide how I feel about a character like (all of) her Even though I have zero issues related to gender/identity, I connected with the character mainly because it's an extremely accurate depiction of the way people sometimes cope with despair and a feeling of being trapped (in my case opiate addiction, and I read it around the beginning of the worst 2-3 years of my life). The cause might be different, but the joyless life filled with extreme fear is the same. In particular, I very strongly identify with the constant reflexive fantasizing/daydreaming, but while not actually being delusional and being fully aware of the reality of the situation (which was definitely the case for Yasu/Beato). The other element I really like is the "bombastic/colorful" tone of everything; taking what is essentially a lifetime of mostly solitary suffering that ended in a complete tragedy and still turning it into something colorful and dramatic. It's hard to explain, but I can't think of anything else I've read/seen quite like it. Most media/art about topics like this tends to either take a serious/dour tone, or an unserious comedic one. But Umineko manages to be both serious and "flamboyant" in its presentation.
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Oct 1, 2022 09:27
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While some people like the whole "commentary on mysteries/writing" stuff, I think Umineko is strongest as a story of characters/relationships (that is told in a very compelling and novel way). It's commentary on that other stuff is fine and interesting, but nothing particularly groundbreaking. Part of why I like it is that it is simultaneously very direct and "bombastic" with its tone, while having more real substance to it than things with more serious tones. It's probably the only media I can think of where my usual response to people coming away with negative opinions (after finishing the whole thing) is "you probably didn't understand it properly" (while being fully aware of how annoying that sounds). My initial response to the VN was actually pretty mixed, and it wasn't until thinking/discussing and rereading parts that it really clicked (largely because the game never explicitly reveals some stuff, and what it does explicitly reveal doesn't make much sense unless you properly understand all of the context surrounding it*, which it reveals to you in a way that is somehow simultaneously indirect and direct/comprehensive through both the "games" and all the "meta" events). * In my case (full spoilers - even if you've had specifics spoiled, do not read unless you've actually finished the VN) I ended the game sort of confused about the Shannon/Kanon deal. The game explicitly tells you that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, but it's easy to come away with some sort of contrived "dual personality" explanation for it (and lame plot twists like that aren't uncommon in mysteries, so I didn't initially think that it made sense to search for more). But even though it isn't explicit, once you realize what's actually going on, you notice that the story repeatedly explains this to you, sometimes in ways that are almost comically direct (and often in earlier episodes, which is why it's easy to miss/forget them). For example, there's the Maria scene in (IIRC) Episode 1 where the other cousins proceed to practically "look at the camera" and explain how Maria is adopting a different persona to express a different facet of herself.
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Oct 15, 2022 13:28
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What are peoples' thoughts on false spoilers? If you see someone reading/playing something under the influence of false spoilers, is it worth mentioning? I'm kind of torn on it, because on one hand denying a spoiler is still providing information (and is a sort of indirect spoiler itself). But on the other hand, reading something while wrongly thinking you've had it spoiled can cause you to miss tons of important stuff and focus on the wrong things (since you're trying to figure out how everything fits with the spoilers you've heard and won't ever arrive at the actual correct understanding as a result). It's less of an issue if a story ends up fully revealing everything by the end, but some (like Umineko) are never explicit about a lot of stuff.
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Nov 17, 2022 23:50
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IIRC your theory is correct, though I can't remember the details of how it was committed. From looking at the purple text you quote, (as you mention) it doesn't seem like there's a contradiction since Jessica/Battler's purple texts don't include the alibi part. I absolutely did not successfully solve it on my own, lol.
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Nov 20, 2022 20:58
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So Math posted:Then I need to clarify, because that is not something I actually do. I know that I have the ability to reread the wiki, and I chose not to. But knowing that I could do it gives me certainty in the wrong answer. If you're talking about the 07th expansion wiki, it's actually remarkably "dry" and (probably deliberately and smartly, credit to the wiki editors) avoids spoilers as much as possible while simply reciting the events that transpire in each episode. This is probably partly because the VN is never entirely explicit about certain things; there have been significant arguments lasting years after the release of the final episode, though Ryukishi went on to make things more explicit in the manga (IMO those arguments had a very clear right and wrong side to them, though). I went looking out of curiosity to see how it deals with things (since I've never really explored the Umineko wiki before), and I couldn't actually find some of the more significant plot/character elements. Not that this means looking at the wiki is a good idea, since it still obviously spoils the events that happens in later episodes - it's just that "knowing what happens" gives a lot less information for Umineko than it would for most other stories.
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Nov 21, 2022 22:05
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VostokProgram posted:Umineko ENDING spoilers do not read This makes a lot more sense once you account for the fact that Genji/Kumasawa are in on it. No one aside from them (and Kinzo when he was alive I guess) is aware. It might seem far-fetched for Jessica (etc) to not notice that Kanon is the same person as Shannon, but it makes more sense once you realize that Genji/Kumasawa are vouching for Kanon's existence as a separate person (and Jessica and others aren't aware of the fact that a successor to Kinzo exists, so they have zero reason to doubt what the servants they say). So maybe at some point Jessica thought "Kanon looks sorta like Shannon," but would have immediately dismissed that after the other servants acted like Kanon is real (because there's no reason she would be aware of for them to be lying). Another thing that I don't think you mention (but may have realized) is the whole reason for the Shannon/Kanon stuff to begin with - Yasu's injury from being dropped by Natsuhi. It can be reasonably inferred that Yasu was "assigned male at birth" and then Nanjo and everyone decided to treat them as a girl after the surgery from the injury. Yasu grows up, in puberty gradually realizes something is wrong, and upon solving the epitaph realizes not only her birth circumstances, but the fact that she was conceived from incest. Kanon is basically Yasu exploring a male gender (and we see this further manifested in Lion, who seems to live as a sort of androgynous man). If someone misses all this stuff (which is very easy to do - I certainly didn't notice it at first) all the Shannon/Kanon stuff is kind of confusing and unsatisfying as an explanation. But everything makes a lot of sense once you get a better idea of what happened.
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Dec 3, 2022 11:53
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So Math posted:spoiler comments Ah, this is good to know. The good thing about the spoilers you saw is that they only cover the "how/who" and not the "why" (which is really the biggest mystery and core to the story). In some ways this can even be a good thing, since a lot of information about the "why" is present in earlier episodes (but is really hard to make use of at that point). Since you know the basic material facts of what's going on, you can instead focus a lot on the "why." One "tip" I'd give is that the "magic scenes" are usually highly relevant to this. A lot of people interpret "magic scenes aren't showing what actually happened" as a reason to dismiss them when trying to solve the mystery, and while it can be useful for confirming the material viability of theories, you also lose a lot of the information about characters and their motives if you ignore them. So it's important to ask "what does this scene mean?" even if it's not literally happening as displayed.
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Dec 7, 2022 00:48
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VostokProgram posted:Spoilers for all the episodes: (So Math don't read this, since it's full "whydunnit" spoilers) "Battler's sin" is honestly a pretty minor part of the whydunnit, even if it's what receives a lot of focus in Episode 7. Episode 2 probably contains the most information about the motive, since it's the one that contains a lot of internal dialogue about the "furniture" stuff (all of the scenes with Shannon or Kanon talking/arguing with Beatrice basically directly represent Yasu internal dialogue). The main issues are a combination of the Natsuhi drop injury + being raised as a girl without awareness of it (which is where most of the self-hatred "furniture" stuff comes from) and "learning that she's a child of incest between Kinzo and Kinzo's daughter" (which also contributes to said self-hatred + hatred of the Ushiromiya family in general - though that hatred is obviously balanced with also loving them, which is why the episodes are written the way they are). Plus not really having much of a family, outside of Kumasawa and Genji. The fact that she learned this stuff after already being in a relationship with George (which heightens the stress, since she's constantly facing down the likely-disaster of George finding out about her body) also contributes to what she decides to do during the family conference. That's where the Battler issue comes in (and why Battler is "responsible" for the epitaph murders). The murders are ultimately done (or planned, since she never actually carries them out in reality) in an attempt to get Battler to figure out things for himself, because she simultaneously wants to be understood (which she - probably correctly - thinks Battler is her best chance for) while also being too scared to bring it up herself. In a world where Battler doesn't return to the conference, she probably either commits suicide or just sets off the bomb without the epitaph murders. So it's not so much that "Battler's sin" is the main cause, but more that it's just the specific reason that her despair took the form of the epitaph murders. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Dec 7, 2022 |
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Dec 7, 2022 20:46
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Episode 7 is probably the best episode. Also has some great music.
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Dec 9, 2022 17:57
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VostokProgram posted:More spoilers for everything I think it was largely because so many readers still hadn't figured out their deal, even after episode 6's duel stuff. So he had to add in something making it even more obvious (due to being unwilling to be fully explicit). Edit: I think the "meta explanation" was just something like "all the pieces have been gathered together for this meta-funeral thing." It also was a way to provide information in the form of "if Lion exists, Shannon/Kanon can't exist (and vice versa)." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 9, 2022 |
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Dec 9, 2022 18:07
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LordMune posted:Yeah, it was a conversational exaggeration placed there for readers to get hung up on only because we know we're reading a murder mystery. Probably my only minor gripe with Umineko is that it can occasionally be a bit too mean with misdirection (and generally trying to manipulate the reader by deliberately making stuff seem important that isn't). That's the main reason I didn't figure a lot of stuff out on my first playthrough; I spent almost all of episodes 1-5 going down unproductive tangents of speculation.
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Dec 29, 2022 02:45
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LordMune posted:Not to put too fine a point on it, but (ep7) Shannon is padded the hell up. Consider that Yasuda wanted to be found out and Shannon makes no attempt to shield herself. Had her boob-ruse been uncovered, it's likely the murder plot would have been abandoned right then and there. This is echoed again in episode 2, where Jessica laments Shannon and George not sharing a room on their trip to the aquarium—had they done so, all would have come undone well before the family conference of 1986. Umineko is full of near-misses like that, and it rules. Full game, don't read Akarshi Akarshi hasn't finished the game yet and I don't think has picked up on everything involving Yasu/Shannon yet (though they're generally way closer than most people get by that point), so this is kind of spoiler territory for them (though they apparently just interpreted your post as implying Yasu/Shannon were flat-chested).
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Jan 12, 2023 21:52
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One thing about Umineko that I don't think is a spoiler to mention (but I guess I'll still put in tags just because) - you're not really supposed to try and understand exactly what's happening with all the "meta" stuff. It's basically a sort of ambiguous narrative device for exploring the characters and their circumstances. I think that can be worth mentioning, because otherwise someone might end up wasting lots of time trying to come up with some theory about the story's metaphysics.
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Sep 6, 2023 18:03
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WarpDogs posted:Probably too early to start posting CIA documents but I'm choosing to Ah, new Umineko reader! I'm envious. It's my favorite thing I've ever read/seen/played, without question. One non-spoilery advice - you can generally rely on logic like "this seems impractical" (though there might be some circumstances where something seems impractical but actually isn't due to one thing or another). In the end, everything makes sense given the circumstances of all the "players" involved. I mention this only because other mysteries sometimes have super implausible elements to them, so this is basically just a reassurance that you can write off that possibility. If something seems really implausible, it either isn't the case, or there's some circumstances that actually makes it plausible. Also, it's basically impossible to fully solve in Episode 1; you mainly want to be learning about the various characters (though you can still probably eliminate some possibilities and definitely want to factor everything into your thinking). And one more thing that I personally think is worth mentioning, since it's something that really threw me off when I first read Umineko - you can't really rely on a normal "protagonist gradually hones in on the truth" approach to the mystery like in many other stories. Occasionally characters will propose something that is 100% correct (to an extent that is downright amusing in hindsight), only to be dismissed/brushed off. Anyways, definitely let us know what you're thinking as you continue playing.
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Oct 4, 2023 05:33
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VostokProgram posted:spoilers for everything: full spoilers as well I don't think so, but it at least gets someone thinking in the right direction of a distinction between vocabulary used.
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Jan 20, 2024 03:36
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The good thing about Umineko is that, if you do choose to spend a bunch of time thinking about it and/or learning all the details of the mystery, you're rewarded with something that makes sense. For anything that makes you think "this seems contrived/unrealistic," it almost always just means that something is being misunderstood. (Full game spoilers)To address the Shannon/Kanon thing (which is probably the biggest thing that feels kind of weird/unsatisfying on first read), there are a few things to keep in mind: - Genji and Kumasawa support the ruse. This is really the big one. It's possible that Jessica (or whoever) suspected something at some point, but those suspicions would likely be put to rest by the fact that Kanon's existence is supported by Genji/Kumasawa. Remember, from her perspective there's no reason for them to lie about Kanon (since Jessica has no idea about the "Shannon being Kinzo's kid and the true head" stuff that Genji/Kumasawa are aware of from the beginning). Beyond this, you'd be surprised what you can pull off with a wig + makeup + fake boobs. - The motive behind it is something never fully spelled out by the game. The "Confessions of the Golden Witch" part of the manga spells out the details (in the VN, the most important stuff is in Episode 2, though there's stuff related to this throughout the entire game). To sum it up, "Beatrice" is the baby dropped by Natsuhi. The baby was assigned male at birth (it's why Natsuhi expects a man to be "the child from back then"). After injuries sustained from the fall, Genji/Nanjo decide to raise the child as a girl (Sayo Yasuda). Upon reaching puberty, Sayo starts to feel a lot of confusion about her gender for obvious reasons. This is what makes her want to explore living as a boy (Kanon). She only learns the full truth after she's already in a relationship with George. The confrontations between Shannon/Kanon and Beatrice in Episode 2 should make a lot more sense with this in mind. It's basically her inner dialogue. Another topic of contention (and one you mentioned) is people cooperating with the murders. There are a couple main points here: - Sayo/Beatrice has a couple main "tools" to work with. The biggest is simple threats - she has the guns and (most importantly) the bomb. Next is the gold, which the adult siblings are absolutely willing to kill over - None of the accomplice set-ups ever manage to happen in reality (as you see in the Episode 7 Tea Party). In reality, the adults just solved the puzzle and then Kirie/Rudolph murdered everyone except Eva (and sorta Battler/"Beatrice"). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Jan 30, 2024 |
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Jan 30, 2024 06:20
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 17:23 |
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Irony Be My Shield posted:(Whole series spoilers) The initial pitch to accomplices (other than Genji) is a fake murder mystery game. Depending on the episode the accomplices can realize earlier or later that they were tricked, but the threat of the bomb and the general difficulty of explaining the situation to the others means its hard for any accomplice to fully turn on the killer. A lot of the things like you mention at the end of this post are really funny on reread. There are a bunch of scenes where characters seem "shaken by the murders" but are actually "shaken by dealing with the culprits and desperately trying to stay on their good side." This is where I think the guns come into play - they would make anyone else think twice about fighting back. You'd instead just try to survive (and the Ushiromiya siblings don't really give a gently caress about whether the others die, or at least not enough to risk their own lives). As I think Sayo herself mentions (I think in the manga or one of the Confessions things), Kyrie (and by extension Rudolph, but mainly Kyrie) is really the biggest threat. She wouldn't be cowed by the gun threat and would also be the most likely to figure things out. The best approach would probably be using her as an accomplice, but she likely still betrays you in that case. And as you see from Episode 7, it turns out that seeing her as the biggest threat is quite reasonable.
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Feb 11, 2024 23:12
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