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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yes, she was explicitly given the option to be sent to just such a Universe, and her response was "yeah but I might need to Universe-hop more, man! Gotta have those powers," so this is very much the case of the audience thinking they're smarter than the writers. I kinda liked that distrust that anything in her life could ever go right. Even if she found a Billy and Tommy with no mom to care for, everything would go wrong eventually. One of them would get cancer. A threat like thanos would destroy earth. They'd get powers that kill them. Something would happen and ruin her life because something always happens when she is happy and ruins her life. She's clearly demented and not very right in the head but drat if I can't understand that specific worry for her.
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Jul 6, 2022 08:49
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I think one of the underexamined aspects of Wanda is that the Darkhold is very clearly trying to corrupt her into destroying the world or putting it under Dark Rule and the worst it can do to her is make her want to kill a couple of people to dimension-hop to a world with her kids (of course she ended up killing a lot more people trying to accomplish that, but still...the Darkhold got Strange to destroy an entire dimension in a couple of cases, it's really dangerous). The movie implies that Wanda is stronger of mind than Strange and harder to turn into a true villain.
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Jul 6, 2022 15:46
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The movie implies that Wanda is stronger of mind than Strange and harder to turn into a true villain. The movie straight up says that in every reality but the 616 one Strange turned bad or did some really bad poo poo in order to try and do good.
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Jul 6, 2022 17:41
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Alhazred posted:The movie straight up says that in every reality but the 616 one Strange turned bad or did some really bad poo poo in order to try and do good. When did that happen? I recall the Illuminati saying that Strange was, in their experience, the biggest threat to the multiverse. But the limits of their experience would hardly make that a claim about multi-universality.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:02
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All the Strange versions we, other than 616 Strange, is either a villain or someone who had done something bad in order to save the world. Even the What If... Strange turns bad. So it's pretty safe to assume that even Paint Strange also was a villain.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:06
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Alhazred posted:All the Strange versions we, other than 616 Strange, is either a villain or someone who had done something bad in order to save the world. Even the What If... Strange turns bad. So it's pretty safe to assume that even Paint Strange also was a villain. There are infinite good Stranges and infinite bad Stranges. The way they portrayed the multiverse, the different realities are sort of clustered together and loosely connected, and can even crash into each other - so the idea appears to be, I think, that the local cluster to which 616 belongs is mostly bad Stranges.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:15
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Alhazred posted:All the Strange versions we, other than 616 Strange, is either a villain or someone who had done something bad in order to save the world. Even the What If... Strange turns bad. So it's pretty safe to assume that even Paint Strange also was a villain. All the iterations of Peggy Carter we've seen other than 616 Peggy turned into Captain Carter. Are you also assuming that Steve Rogers becoming Captain America is unique across the entirety of the multiverse? You're making an assumption about the possibilities of an infinite multiverse based on three or four examples.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:21
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Film seemed to say that Wanda only cared about being a mother and through that darkhold would make her crazy. She would probably destroy other dimensions to protect her children in the future. Strange was mostly just shown to have arrogance enhanced by the darkhold, so probably just too many evil magic experiments killing worlds.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:21
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Sir Kodiak posted:All the iterations of Peggy Carter we've seen other than 616 Peggy turned into Captain Carter. Are you also assuming that Steve Rogers becoming Captain America is unique across the entirety of the multiverse? I'm assuming that the movie is trying to make a point about Strange's personality,
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Jul 6, 2022 18:39
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Alhazred posted:I'm assuming that the movie is trying to make a point about Strange's personality, But it can't, because there's a dimension where he's played by Danny Trejo and uses the mystic arts to assassinate evil mariachis with magical throwing knives.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:41
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Alhazred posted:I'm assuming that the movie is trying to make a point about Strange's personality, Yeah, me too. The point being that this character is prone to walking the edge. That's a bit different than assuming that literally only the 616 iteration has avoided falling over. What makes you inclined to think that the latter is the point they're trying to make rather than the former?
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Jul 6, 2022 18:41
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, me too. The point being that this character is prone to walking the edge. That's a bit different than assuming that literally only the 616 iteration has avoided falling over. What makes you inclined to think that the latter is the point they're trying to make rather than the former? Because every other Strange we see fell over the edge. The only one that don't is the 616 one. If Raimi wanted to show that 616 Strange wasn't different from the other he would've shown other versions who acted differently. The movie doesn't have time to show every version Strange, so it only show a few.
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Jul 6, 2022 18:55
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The opening strange seemed alright except for trying to take Americas power (which is now a thing I guess) when there seemed to be no hope. Though why he knew that he needed to take her power without Wanda having revealed herself and motivations…
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Jul 6, 2022 19:01
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Alhazred posted:Because every other Strange we see fell over the edge. The only one that don't is the 616 one. If Raimi wanted to show that 616 Strange wasn't different from the other he would've shown other versions who acted differently. The movie doesn't have time to show every version Strange, so it only show a few. I'll return to the question you didn't answer before. Every other Peggy Carter we see is Captain Carter. Do you also assume that's universal? checkplease posted:The opening strange seemed alright except for trying to take Americas power (which is now a thing I guess) when there seemed to be no hope. Though why he knew that he needed to take her power without Wanda having revealed herself and motivations… Yeah, it's worth noting that if this makes that Strange a villain, then so is 616 Wong, and that's certainly not how the movie plays it with Strange bowing to him at the end and all that.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:04
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Sir Kodiak posted:I'll return to the question you didn't answer before. Every other Peggy Carter we see is Captain Carter. Do you also assume that's universal? Okay, I'm done. Please assume that every other version of me in any other reality is also done.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:11
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checkplease posted:The opening strange seemed alright except for trying to take Americas power (which is now a thing I guess) when there seemed to be no hope. Though why he knew that he needed to take her power without Wanda having revealed herself and motivations… That version of Strange was willing to kill America because he believed that only he could save the universe. 616 Strange on the other hand trusted someone else to save the universe.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:13
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, me too. The point being that this character is prone to walking the edge. That's a bit different than assuming that literally only the 616 iteration has avoided falling over. What makes you inclined to think that the latter is the point they're trying to make rather than the former? Even if the movie was making the latter point, it doesn't make sense within their own cosmology. The multiverse is infinite, thus unknowable on any kind of objective level (at least by a human. I suppose gods like the Watcher may). The idea that "literally every Strange except 616 is hubristic and corrupt to the point of villainy" is not a knowable detail, because there are infinite Stranges. I read the situation as, "many or even most turn evil," that it's a significant RISK for any given Strange to turn evil. But the Illuminati treating it as a certainty isn't rational or factual, it's a bias they have because their Strange happened to go evil. It's similar to Wanda's line about how she has children in "every other reality." There's no way that's actually, literally true in an infinite multiverse. I read that as a belief she has, fueled by the semi-intelligent corrupting influence of the Darkhold. She's only *seeing* realities where her kids exist, needs to believe they are everywhere else so the cosmic injustice of her loneliness feels uniquely cruel.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:25
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The movie never really grapples with the bizarre nature of "infinite" at all. This isn't a quantum multiverse where every subatomic state happens, leading to infinite branching universes every moment. This is a comic book multiverse that plays by no set physical rules, just whatever narratively feels good. If there's a universe that diverged long enough ago for red to mean go and green to mean stop, how did everything else happen almost the same, without a thousand thousand butterfly effects changing everything? Engaging with the true nature of infinite while discussing this movie is not discussing this movie. In the context of this movie Dr. Strange is always evil, or at least monstrously utilitarian, except for 616 Strange. He's the special good boy, and it feels better to see him do the right thing when we know it is not in the nature of Dr. Strange. He's overcome something.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:38
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The Illuminati does say that Strange is the greatest threat to be multiverse and drugs and arrests a random Strange because of it. It's probably a stretch to say that they're all evil but the movie makes it clear that Stranges are generally bad.
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Jul 6, 2022 19:39
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Yeah, I interpreted Wanda's line the same way. When she says it she's showing the various alternate universes that the Darkhold has given her glimpses of. Like with Saruman looking through the palantir, she's seeing a limited selection of reality curated by a great evil and trusting that it's the whole picture, to her downfall. It's a common mistake to make, assuming that your limited view of things must be universal. live with fruit posted:The Illuminati does say that Strange is the greatest threat to be multiverse and drugs and arrests a random Strange because of it. It's probably a stretch to say that they're all evil but the movie makes it clear that Stranges are generally bad. Yep. Worth noting that the Illuminati also claim they can easily handle the Scarlet Witch, so they're clearly not unerring in their judgement. Sir Kodiak fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jul 6, 2022 |
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Jul 6, 2022 19:40
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The Darkhold literally shows the other realities as linked spheres with "roads" to various other realities. On one hand, you'd be a fool to trust the Darkhold's view of anything. On the other hand, Spider-Man: No Way Home seems to support the idea that some realities are "closer" to each other and therefore are easier to bridge. On a completely unrelated note, I like playing Nerd Detective and trying to assemble a coherent set of laws that govern these multiversal shennanigans even though the real answer is "it's fake and a wizard did it"
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Jul 6, 2022 20:08
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Alhazred posted:I'm assuming that the movie is trying to make a point about Strange's personality, I thought it was interesting this movie negated the “there’s only one reality where we beat Thanos” plot point from infinity war
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Jul 6, 2022 20:41
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ruddiger posted:I thought it was interesting this movie negated the “there’s only one reality where we beat Thanos” plot point from infinity war It legitimized Dr Strange realizing the only way to survive was to take out Tony Stark too. Clearly the Sorc Supreme had to protect reality as we know it.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:44
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ruddiger posted:I thought it was interesting this movie negated the “there’s only one reality where we beat Thanos” plot point from infinity war Dr. Strange was using the time stone to check alternative futures in Infinity War, not alternative realities. Having Thanos die in other universes doesn't negate anything. euphronius posted:Didn’t the universe split into multiverses only after the events Of the Loki tv show There were already multiple universes at the start of Loki, which is why there were different version of Loki & others running about. The TVA was pruning specific alternate universes that were "problematic". The ending of Loki was the multiverse expanding without any direction.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:54
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Yeah, they appear to be trying to distinguish between branching timelines and alternate realities. I don't think the implication is supposed to be that the universe where everyone is a cartoon or everything is paint came about because something in the past went a different way. Though the cartoon universe also raises the question of whether the people in What If? are diegetically cartoon characters or if that's just an artifact of our perspective on them. I suspect we're not supposed to worry about it. They couldn't even get everyone on the same page as to how the time travel for Cap's life with Peggy worked within a single movie for Endgame, nevermind consistency between different movies and TV shows.
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Jul 6, 2022 20:54
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Agreed we are not meant to trust the Illuminati that much. Obviously their name is one of conspiracy. Their execution of their strange is not show as some moment of triumph. Rather our Strange is horrified by them. And Mordo, an Illuminati member, is shown to be corrupt. Finally their decision to execute Stranges is thematically connected to Stranges choice on taking Americas power. One choice is the simple, this is best for the greater good. The other is trusting the individual.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:02
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ruddiger posted:I thought it was interesting this movie negated the “there’s only one reality where we beat Thanos” plot point from infinity war Megaman's Jockstrap posted:On a completely unrelated note, I like playing Nerd Detective and trying to assemble a coherent set of laws that govern these multiversal shennanigans even though the real answer is "it's fake and a wizard did it" "Theoretically there should be infinite good Doctor Stranges," is not a good response to someone pointing out 616 Strange is the only good one. In the context of this story, we're told he's the only good one.
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Jul 6, 2022 21:04
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Eiba posted:In the context of this story, we're told he's the only good one. How are we told this?
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Jul 6, 2022 21:24
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Sir Kodiak posted:How are we told this? Oh my god please stop
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Jul 6, 2022 22:49
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Rarity posted:Oh my god please stop Stop asking questions about an interpretation that doesn't make sense to me? No. Discussion is the point of the forum.
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Jul 7, 2022 03:40
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It can't really be infinite though right? Otherwise there would never be only one Kang left, right? Didn't he kill all the others?
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Jul 7, 2022 05:23
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The Darkhold literally shows the other realities as linked spheres with "roads" to various other realities. On one hand, you'd be a fool to trust the Darkhold's view of anything. On the other hand, Spider-Man: No Way Home seems to support the idea that some realities are "closer" to each other and therefore are easier to bridge. Spider-verse literally shows the multiverse as a web. Though frankly I like the concept that the multiverse looks and acts completely differently depending on what means you're using to traverse it. Like time travel stories that have different forms of time travel that have different results. (Dragon Ball Super has an arc based around that and it gets extremely confusing both in-universe and out. Even the villain isn't exactly clear on how things work) Also, the idea of every other Strange but the 616 one turning bad is kinda lol given that's usually Reed Richards' thing.
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Jul 7, 2022 16:20
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Just saw Thor and I don't see a thread so posting here. It's good, not as good as Ragnarok but that's not surprising without Loki or Hela. Mighty Thor is great, Christian Bale is awesome as Gor but I wanted more of him, there's some really bad child acting, an awesome sequence of cinematography, a super predictable post credit scene and Tessa Thompson is just the absolute best
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Jul 7, 2022 22:21
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There is only one America Chavez. Regardless of multiple universes. The movies also don’t really treat them as actually infinite. It seems like they have about 80 .
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Jul 7, 2022 22:31
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I had a dream last night where one of the multiverse Stranges was played by Bruce Campbell.
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Jul 8, 2022 13:05
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evobatman posted:I had a dream last night where one of the multiverse Stranges was played by Bruce Campbell. That's what I was hoping for when his cameo was rumoured, but I like what we got.
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Jul 8, 2022 13:29
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Rarity posted:Just saw Thor and I don't see a thread so posting here. It's good, not as good as Ragnarok but that's not surprising without Loki or Hela. Mighty Thor is great, Christian Bale is awesome as Gor but I wanted more of him, there's some really bad child acting, an awesome sequence of cinematography, a super predictable post credit scene and Tessa Thompson is just the absolute best https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3953847 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3877913
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Jul 8, 2022 16:51
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Also https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4006644&pagenumber=1&perpage=40
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Jul 9, 2022 01:27
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Watched it again . Zombie strange is hilarious
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Jul 10, 2022 02:49
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euphronius posted:There is only one America Chavez. Regardless of multiple universes. The movies also don’t really treat them as actually infinite. It seems like they have about 80 . For brevity's sake we can ignore all the universes that never developed life, or collapsed of their own volition, which cuts out the vast majority.
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Jul 11, 2022 11:59
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