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Jerusalem posted:Absolutely. Homicide is a very, very, very good book, but The Corner is absolutely incredible and a must-read. Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Homicide is an interesting beast since it was written before Clinton's police mandate in '94 that really kicked these issues into overdrive so it feels like a view into an entirely different world and helps explain why he was more sympathetic to the force 30 years ago. I just finished Homicide last night, it's very good but as I said in an earlier post, comes off as ardently pro-cop because 1) it's homicide cops, seen by Simon as the Good Guys (see also: Suiter) and 2) he was basically embedded with the department for a full year, full-time and got personally close to many of the detectives, as he himself admits in the afterword. I'd definitely read more by Simon though, will have to check out The Corner. Despera posted:An icepick made inroads into troskys skull in the 40s. lmao
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Jun 2, 2022 10:27
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Jewmanji posted:What about this show indicates that? Sorry but you just saying "some tweets of his I saw" isn't persuasive. He's not a reformist, he believes the system is irreparably broken. Doesn't sound like a classic liberal to me. I've heard him refer to himself as a democratic socialist years ago, but again whether he considers himself progressive, DSA, or further left, I don't see how that's manifested in the show at all. Where is he saying that the problem is narrower than capitalism? Like, did you watch Season 2 of The Wire? I've repeatedly told you, and even started this whole discussion, by commenting that I am constantly surprised at the gap between Simon's political opinions as expressed outside of his work and the texts of his works. I agree with you that it is difficult to conclude that the problem is not capitalism existing when viewing Simon's work. However, the author of the work, Simon himself, apparently continues to believe that capitalism need not be abolished. To counter your question though, do you think policing in America would be fixed if the war on drugs was admitted as being lost? Do you think there is much chance of this actually taking place? If not, why not? The reason I ask is because the text of the show does present this as a solution. I disagree.
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Jun 2, 2022 11:13
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Randallteal posted:Socialist societies still have brutal cops and institutional racism. The least lovely carceral systems in the world are all in countries with democratic governments and market economies. Who do you think you're convincing by saying nothing can change under capitalism when the situation has gotten several times worse in living memory? It's easy to sit on the sidelines of every issue but socialism isn't a magic spell and your sanctimonious attitude isn't winning anyone over. The reason things are getting worse is due to capitalism, specifically the tendency for the rate of profit to fall. The past having been less bad is not a solution because material circumstances have changed and you cannot go back in time. Other capitalist countries are not the imperial core. The US is.
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Jun 2, 2022 11:16
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Orange Devil posted:I've repeatedly told you, and even started this whole discussion, by commenting that I am constantly surprised at the gap between Simon's political opinions as expressed outside of his work and the texts of his works. Ok. I acknowledge that asking you to pull random tweets or statements from him is probably more work than you care to do, but it makes it a bit hard to have this argument, and the "I've repeatedly told you" comment is not appreciated. The only thing we have to go on right now is what the art shows. I could just as easily say "nuh-uh, I've seen some tweets from Simon where he talks about wants to veer into communism, I just can't find them now!!!" To your question, no I don't think policing would be "fixed" if we ended the war on drugs. There's obviously foundational issues with policing in this country that predate the 70s. That said, it's undeniable that the policing strategies that emerged from the war on drugs have only exacerbated many of the issues within communities that are plagued by drugs. If regular beat cops were more community-minded, as they were before the war on drugs and were asked to affect thousands of meaningless arrests, it would make a difference to those communities. In fact, you often see comments in articles from people living in minority communities affected by crime that they actually want more policing of their neighborhood, not less. But what they're asking for is for cops to stop jacking people up on the corners 24/7 and start solving some murders, because the clearance rate is abysmal. And I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the show presents this as a "solution". None of the writers of the show are that naive. Would it be a massive harm reduction? Yes. Would it "solve" policing in America? Of course not. An analogy would be say... advocating for the criminalization of solitary confinement in US prisons. Abolishing prisons is a great long term goal, but in the meantime there are people suffering today who would benefit from better conditions in the prison system. Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 14:32
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"There are going to be new rules on how they hunt us."
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Jun 2, 2022 15:13
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Yes. I think you're making my point for me?
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Jun 2, 2022 15:32
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withak posted:To be fair, taking money away from people he was arresting doesn’t sound like extortion to me. Wouldn’t extortion involve something like “give me your money or else I tell them what you did.” Extortion is just robbery by use of threats, violent or otherwise. A cop robbing someone during work us always extortion because they're doing it through the threat of arrest or assault. Unless they draw their weapon, then it's armed robbery. Brandishing a weapon is considered itself a violent act so you're no longer threatening to use violence, you just are.
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Jun 2, 2022 15:33
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EvilBlackRailgun posted:The fact he had his (inexperienced) partner stand in a specific spot, then went behind a van and paced for a minute (caught by a security camera) fired two shots in the air, and was hit in his right temple (initially misreported as his left) all suggest suicide to me. I guess but that's just according to the other guy, isn't it? Not saying you're wrong and I could be way out there. Just that something doesn't smell right about this plan or the official story to me. Also, I haven't read the book but The Corner six part series is loving great and up on YT (in low quality, mind). Again, really cool seeing Simon shuffle his actors around into wildly different characters but still yielding great performances.
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Jun 2, 2022 16:12
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Debating Simon's politics vis a vis the show is pretty funny because the Wire and this show are incredibly damning of liberal politicians and their institutions. The show ends with the lady from DOJ quitting and saying 'legal reforms and consent decrees are pointless'. The entire Carcetti arc was about a white politician splitting the black voting base via tough on crime rhetoric and then loving everything up, all of which was a thinly veiled critique of the Democratic governor of Maryland Martin O'Mally. We Own This City is even more explicit and targets Obama DOJ appointees and career officials. They openly state at the end that their work is pointless and stupid. He's not going to be an explicit socialist because he'd old and his brain won't let him, but god drat this is as close as it's gonna get for the vast majority of Americans who haven't been brain poisoned by political debate on the internet.
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Jun 2, 2022 16:35
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wedgie deliverer posted:Debating Simon's politics vis a vis the show is pretty funny because the Wire and this show are incredibly damning of liberal politicians and their institutions. The show ends with the lady from DOJ quitting and saying 'legal reforms and consent decrees are pointless'. The entire Carcetti arc was about a white politician splitting the black voting base via tough on crime rhetoric and then loving everything up, all of which was a thinly veiled critique of the Democratic governor of Maryland Martin O'Mally. Lol yeah. Simon has decades of experience cataloging the abuses of the police and has seen every proposed solution fail, but he still thinks, and has seen, that good cops can actually do good things. People can call that copaganda I guess, but on the topic of cops and crime in baltimore, I'm going to believe David Simon's take over internet socialists pretty much every time, even when I agree with them. The system is hosed, abolish capitalism etc, but it isn't going to change on any scale that will actually help the people it hurts.
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Jun 2, 2022 16:47
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https://twitter.com/wjz/status/1532067288001974272?s=20&t=wUAeM1gD6JCa3c09FX_pIg Sometimes I get frustrated with settlements, even though I understand why people take them, but in this case Hersl is already disgraced and in jail so hey, congrats to Young Moose for getting that bag.
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Jun 2, 2022 17:04
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All episodes of this are available on Sky Atlantic in the UK from this Tuesday
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Jun 2, 2022 17:32
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Eason the Fifth posted:Lol yeah. Simon has decades of experience cataloging the abuses of the police and has seen every proposed solution fail, but he still thinks, and has seen, that good cops can actually do good things. People can call that copaganda I guess, but on the topic of cops and crime in baltimore, I'm going to believe David Simon's take over internet socialists pretty much every time, even when I agree with them. The system is hosed, abolish capitalism etc, but it isn't going to change on any scale that will actually help the people it hurts. Simon focuses on police and the drug war but not things like how for every 10 NGOs centered around communities are created in a city of 100,000, the murder rate drops by 9 percent. It's hard to talk about crime in baltimore when the only solution he offers is better policing.
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Jun 2, 2022 17:41
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Shageletic posted:Simon focuses on police and the drug war but not things like how for every 10 NGOs centered around communities are created in a city of 100,000, the murder rate drops by 9 percent. It's hard to talk about crime in baltimore when the only solution he offers is better policing. What’s the source on the NGO stat; I am very interested in reading up on that.
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Jun 2, 2022 18:18
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BiggerBoat posted:So nobody has any opinions one way or the other about Suiter: suicide v murder? Or have not many people watched The Slow Hustle documentary? Wotc portrayed Sean as believing himself to be "one of the good ones" and being really proud about and forming his identity around it. I thought the motive for the suicide was that even if he didn't participate in the corruption, he was aware of it and didn't report it, making him complicit. And rather than own up to being complicit and potentially lose his pension for his family, he killed himself and staged it just well enough to leave doubt, so his family could collect the benefits and spare them from believing he wasn't a hero cop. So he was going to potentially lose not only his job, but also his entire identity as "one of the good ones". He chose to take the way out that let him and his family keep both.
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Jun 2, 2022 18:40
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The doc also clearly has an axe to grind against the BPD, and rightly so, but the GTTF was already hosed, and would have no real motivation to kill one out of dozens of other witnesses
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Jun 2, 2022 18:56
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EvilBlackRailgun posted:The doc also clearly has an axe to grind against the BPD, and rightly so, but the GTTF was already hosed, and would have no real motivation to kill one out of dozens of other witnesses I thought the same thing. I guess the only difference was that Sean wasn't locked up yet but, a still a hit seems like a long shot. th3t00t posted:I haven't watched the documentary yet. But I thought wotc portrayed Sean as the one who insisted they hit the alley? It did, but the doc portrays it as the other way around. That the new partner was the one who wanted to interview the prostitute that we never saw and had asked Sean to come with HIM, which puts a whole different angle on things. If it was a set up and he was murdered, the guy that went with him would have HAD to have been a part of it. There are some discrepancies between the doc and the show and like EvilBlackRailgun said, the family and citizens having doubts about the BPD along with their official finding is entirely understandable. I don't know what to think. I can't shake the idea that if Suiter wanted to stage a murder like that, there were probably 50 better ways to go about it and, as a homicide cop, he would know most all of them. His plan made no loving sense and it was real sloppy. Maybe there was more poo poo he got up to that never came out and, being pressed for time, was more worried about the grand jury than we were shown for reasons we don't know? Maybe it was more than that relatively small stack of 100's and he was scared they knew about whatever that might entail? Why not just head out to follow up on an investigation, alone, flash $500 or a grand to a corner kid, tell him to "cap me in this alley over here", "toss this gun in the sewer" then take the money and book it out of there? BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Jun 2, 2022 |
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Jun 2, 2022 19:46
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Shageletic posted:Simon focuses on police and the drug war but not things like how for every 10 NGOs centered around communities are created in a city of 100,000, the murder rate drops by 9 percent. It's hard to talk about crime in baltimore when the only solution he offers is better policing. Well it's not his job to offer solutions. He's not a policy maker, he's a journalist and a writer. Even then he recognizes in The Corner quite frequently that policing isn't going to solve the issue, because policing can only tackle the symptoms, not the cause. The Corner posted:Instead, we have swallowed some disastrous pretensions, allowing ourselves a naive sincerity that, even now, assumes the battle can be restricted to heroin and cocaine, limited to a self-contained cadre of lawbreakers—the quaint term “drug pusher” comes to mind—when all along the conflict was ripe to become a war against the underclass itself. We’ve trusted in the moral high ground: Just say no.
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Jun 2, 2022 19:46
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Smithwick posted:What’s the source on the NGO stat; I am very interested in reading up on that. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0003122417736289 And I mentioned capitalism being reinforcing mechanism for racism because capitalism hinging on the accumulation of wealth by the holding of things like property is and the things used to preserve that advantage is directly responsible for the sad state of places like Baltimore, property owners leaving the city proper to avoid the specter of lower property prices and big businesses leaving the city to set up in the suburbs and outskirts of towns can be attributed to a motivation to destroy strong in-city labor unions. Why is there a War on Drugs? It's because there is a disparity between the people affected by it and the people who decide it needs to continue are not the same people. There are studies out there showing a disparity between rising crime rates and a still low incarceration rate in inner cities in the late 60s, due to large part because those cities were still majority white and the people that could be incarcerated, where the same people that became cops, prosecutors, mayors. A capitalist critique is one of the only coherent ways to take a step back and look at the problems leading to We Own This City systematically. I wasn't looking to say that communist countries do things "better", though statistically in health, life expectancies, and measures of wealth, there is a larger convergence of those outcomes in a place like Cuba, compared to the US. And I believe racism is a part of it, but rolls into that larger critique. If you have a better way to encompass that scale of critique looking at causes and not just symptoms, shoot away.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:22
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:Well it's not his job to offer solutions. He's not a policy maker, he's a journalist and a writer. Even then he recognizes in The Corner quite frequently that policing isn't going to solve the issue, because policing can only tackle the symptoms, not the cause. You might say that about alot of TV creatives, but this is a show that specifically created characters so they could have speeches detailing what's wrong with the present system and yes how to fix it (end the War on Drugs, namely). It's odd to say that this show or Simon isn't interested in solutions. The good old cops saying we should go back to the old days is Simon's (and the other creators around him) seeming answer to the present shittiness. But you can't do that, if the incentives, pressures, and reasons why that can never occur, if it ever did, is still present. The underclass, specifically cited here, being a natural and wanted result of capitalism.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:28
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Shageletic posted:The good old cops saying we should go back to the old days is Simon's (and the other creators around him) seeming answer to the present shittiness. I have no idea how you watch We Own This City and the second half of the last episode and come away with that impression.
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Jun 2, 2022 20:51
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Shageletic posted:Simon focuses on police and the drug war but not things like how for every 10 NGOs centered around communities are created in a city of 100,000, the murder rate drops by 9 percent. It's hard to talk about crime in baltimore when the only solution he offers is better policing. I'm only an hour or so in to The Corner as of last night, but he's already talked about Miss Ella running the recreation center and how it's keeping the 15 year olds off the corners (only just, and she frets about not having the resources to start the basketball team that would help keep them), and is a positive force for the younger kids. In all fairness, no idea how it's going to play out. But anything outside of the police is clearly beyond the scope of WoTC. BiggerBoat posted:Why not just head out to follow up on an investigation, alone, flash $500 or a grand to a corner kid, tell him to "cap me in this alley over here", "toss this gun in the sewer" then take the money and book it out of there? Because any hopper with half a brain is going to see that as a setup, or if it's genuine, know they will be hunted to the ends of the earth by the BPD for killing one of their own?
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Jun 2, 2022 21:06
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Ethics_Gradient posted:
Maybe you're right. Still though, money talks and a lot of them will kill for less, especially if they're strung out and desperate for cash. I see your point though. Just saying if I was going to stage my own suicide, that's probably how I'd do it were in Sean's situation.
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Jun 2, 2022 21:29
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Loose lips sink ships
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Jun 2, 2022 21:47
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I stopped watching Homicide during season 3 when they did a really weird out of order episode sequence that spoiled the death of a main character. I was so befuddled that I was just like "gently caress this" after. What was that about? And is it still worth watching after that? I loved that character.
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Jun 3, 2022 01:49
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escape artist posted:I stopped watching Homicide during season 3 when they did a really weird out of order episode sequence that spoiled the death of a main character. I was so befuddled that I was just like "gently caress this" after. What was that about? And is it still worth watching after that? I loved that character. The character you're talking about was killed off because the network thought Jon Polito was too ugly. Stupid loving network. I think the first three seasons are easily the best, but it might be worth carrying on. There are some great later episodes, particularly one that's basically a two-hander with Andre Braugher and Vincent D'Onofrio in the sixth season.
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Jun 3, 2022 04:07
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That train episode is the only Homicide episode I've ever seen and it's still really effective.
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Jun 3, 2022 04:10
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The one with Robin Williams was baby's first "wait, cops are actually assholes?" for me when I was 11 or 12.
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Jun 3, 2022 06:04
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LesterGroans posted:The character you're talking about was killed off because the network thought Jon Polito was too ugly. Stupid loving network. Is there a way that I can watch it with the episodes in proper order? I just don't get why they reveal it casually in one episode and then an episode or two later try to play it like its shocking. But I loving love Braugher and D'Onofrio so I will definitely watch that.
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Jun 3, 2022 06:06
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Eason the Fifth posted:The one with Robin Williams was baby's first "wait, cops are actually assholes?" for me when I was 11 or 12. Robin Williams acts the poo poo out of that.
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Jun 3, 2022 07:51
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escape artist posted:Is there a way that I can watch it with the episodes in proper order? I just don't get why they reveal it casually in one episode and then an episode or two later try to play it like its shocking. I'm not sure they did? The character mentioned left the show at the beginning of the second season and the death was fairly early in the third.
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Jun 3, 2022 14:27
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:I have no idea how you watch We Own This City and the second half of the last episode and come away with that impression. Treat Williams character's speech is what gave me that impression. Ethics_Gradient posted:I'm only an hour or so in to The Corner as of last night, but he's already talked about Miss Ella running the recreation center and how it's keeping the 15 year olds off the corners (only just, and she frets about not having the resources to start the basketball team that would help keep them), and is a positive force for the younger kids. I need to check out the Corner. That bit about community organizing might be why I liked Cutty's storyline so much in the Wire.
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Jun 3, 2022 14:52
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I’ve read Homicide and watched The Corner but this thread just convinced me to read it as well
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Jun 3, 2022 15:06
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I'm not sure they did? The character mentioned left the show at the beginning of the second season and the death was fairly early in the third. But for example, episode 03 casually mentions the death and there's no explanation. Then a Robin Williams episode, then Episode 05 is the episode ABOUT the actual death. It seems like they're out of order and it was a really jarring experience that took me out of the season. What platform is it streaming on these days?
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Jun 4, 2022 02:44
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That was the broadcast order, NBC hosed it up.
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Jun 4, 2022 03:06
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Yeah, I think the DVDs are in the right order. I don't about any streaming service, or if it's even streaming.
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Jun 4, 2022 03:08
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Another Bill posted:That was the broadcast order, NBC hosed it up. Okay. I thought I was going crazy there for a minute.
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Jun 4, 2022 03:28
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Oh right, that. Back in the day production order wasn't really that important since a lot of these shows were only nominally serial. They probably moved shooting schedules around after writing to accommodate Williams' schedule.
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Jun 4, 2022 06:14
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Eason the Fifth posted:Lol yeah. Simon has decades of experience cataloging the abuses of the police and has seen every proposed solution fail, but he still thinks, and has seen, that good cops can actually do good things. People can call that copaganda I guess, but on the topic of cops and crime in baltimore, I'm going to believe David Simon's take over internet socialists pretty much every time, even when I agree with them. The system is hosed, abolish capitalism etc, but it isn't going to change on any scale that will actually help the people it hurts. I'm an internet socialist, but also I actually lived in West Baltimore in April of 2015, and I've learned to slightly hate David Simon over the years because of his mealy mouthed nonsense.
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Jun 4, 2022 06:34
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Wow ok...hell of an ending and documentary. Still not entirely sure how I fall on the Suiter death. I think im 70% suicide, 30% rando suspect killing him, 0% police assassination. It being a targeted hit by any of the GTTF people seems like a super stretch when most of them cooperated or just never worked with him. Jenkens already knew his guys were ratting him out. Guys who did and knew way more than Suiter ever did or could have given the investigation. Looking the other way on dirty cops or even going along with it is a loooong way off from pulling some ninja assassination poo poo in broad daylight and who was even left of his people to do it? For how hosed they obviously were who would even be the random guy loyal enough to do that while not also getting caught up in the other poo poo they did? The IRB report had a note about there being only 8 sec of time where Suiter wasnt in visual contact with his partner/street cam. Granted the report had massive flaws in it but i dont think that fact was in dispute. Im not sure I buy that some random drug dealer or whoever it was could get taken by surprise, shoot him in the head with his own gun and run out of there with zero trace in 8 seconds. I think its way more plausible that he either thought the GTTF guys would try to pin more poo poo on him or maybe thought he was in more trouble than the investigators were admitting and just panicked. I dunno...its a hosed up situation and we'll prob never know for sure. edit: reminds of that story of a bald cop who was embezzling money from some kids program and radioed in some fake incident with suspects then shot himself in the chest hoping it wouldnt look like a suicide. Like they actually 100% believe their plan has 0 flaws and people will just buy whatever and move on. banned from Starbucks fucked around with this message at 09:23 on Jun 4, 2022 |
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Jun 4, 2022 09:15
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