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Itzena posted:Yeah, that's the thing - they flipped "Orcs are always Chaotic Evil mooks to be murdered by The Heroes" in WC3, but didn't seem to understand that just changing it from 'orcs' to 'quillboars' makes it still fundamentally the same problem. I have wondered if this, rather than 'Steve Danuser didn't bother to read the existing lore,' is why Dragonflight introduced a new centaur race completely different and unrelated from the existing centaurs. Given that, as we've covered, the lore for the centaurs is 'Their mythological creation was an abomination because the progenitors of their race were never meant to fall in love or have children, so all their descendants were born cruel and evil,' I wouldn't blame anyone at Blizzard for deciding to just discreetly move along and hope no one noticed. Certainly easier than having a discussion about 'That myth was in-setting propaganda created to justify xenophobia against the centaurs and actually things are more nuanced than what we saw.'
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Feb 2, 2024 14:45
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Itzena posted:Yeah, that's the thing - they flipped "Orcs are always Chaotic Evil mooks to be murdered by The Heroes" in WC3, but didn't seem to understand that just changing it from 'orcs' to 'quillboars' makes it still fundamentally the same problem. Even worse, because in 1 and 2, the orcs are not only the genocidal invaders, but demon possessed/influenced (though apparently that didn't mean much). The quillboars are in the humans' position here, except the orcs are Right This Time for reasons. This time, invading someone's land and taking their poo poo and killing them if they object is ok, because...? Like...there is at least some reason to be pretty pro-Orc-killing circa wc1/2/3.
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Feb 2, 2024 15:02
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Cythereal posted:I've recorded part of the next mission now, and one oddity I've noticed: all the 'Old Horde warlocks forming covens still devoted to the Burning Legion' in WC3 are specifically labeled as Stormreavers, Gul'dan's clan. In WoW, they're instead identified as Burning Blade. I mean, the Stormreavers are supposed to have all been wiped out inWC2(they even say so when you destroy their skeletons in the second NE mission), so the change makes sense.
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Feb 2, 2024 19:21
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Pieces of Peace posted:The War3 (and WoW) Horde would have been much more interesting if they hadn't just taken in the Tauren, but everyone - maybe via cliched pulp novel "you have bested our champion, we will swear to you," or just saving them from demons, but if their roster replaced say, every orc unit that wasn't a grunt with another new native (raiders? No, centaurs! Don't save wyverns from harpies, just recruit the harpies! Quillboar shamans!), it'd give them more of the supposed "outcasts banded together" flavor that ends up really lackluster when they're constrained by being (roughly) a mirror of the Alliance. Largely agreed. Making the Horde a much bigger mash up of various "monster races" would've been a better choice. I can sorta see the arguement that it would've weakened the "Orcs vs Humans" effect that Blizzard still wanted, but I think the end result doesn't work out nearly as well as it could've. What we're largely seeing here is, I at least think, an unforseen (and un-considered) side effect of D&D's influence on WC3. The actual mechanical parts of WC3 get undermentioned in the thread, but as far as I can recall, the very nature of having the "creeps" was something no other RTS was doing before WC3 came out. After all, without WC3's hero system, fighting enemies unrelated to your actual enemy faction(s) is purely a negative that drains your overall resources - WC3 took note from D&D and, with heroes and their items, now you can make it something of a risk vs reward. Of course, now you need to PUT those enemies in the game, and when you reach to D&D for inspirations...well, we all know how that turns out. So you end up with vague enemies to mass kill that aren't even really connected to the factions, and here in Kalimdor it turns especially ugly as we end up with half a whole campaign about doing so. Beyond that, this campaign also suffers from being what was, when the game was released, seen as an entirely normal campaign about killing a whole lot of people to start your empire, just as all real life empires were made, just as all the in-game empires were made. But whereas the Night Elves taking out troll villages and the Humans carving their way through gnolls to found their empires was in the past, here we see it and experience it happening first hand.
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Feb 2, 2024 20:54
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 Interesting detail. Seems like the end of mission screen for this campaign only reflects what you did on this specific map, not the whole mission. This mission also has an intensely irritating bug, but I made do.
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Feb 3, 2024 02:55
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Also interesting that the art depicts Rexxar with the Red team color instead of Blue. I know that "Blue Is Your Dudes" is the tradition, but it still stands out to me considering that you played as Red during previous Horde Campaigns.
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Feb 3, 2024 03:08
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Hooray! You've played every mission! 0/probably one or two hundred remain.
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Feb 3, 2024 04:02
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ProfessorCirno posted:What we're largely seeing here is, I at least think, an unforseen (and un-considered) side effect of D&D's influence on WC3. The actual mechanical parts of WC3 get undermentioned in the thread, but as far as I can recall, the very nature of having the "creeps" was something no other RTS was doing before WC3 came out. After all, without WC3's hero system, fighting enemies unrelated to your actual enemy faction(s) is purely a negative that drains your overall resources - WC3 took note from D&D and, with heroes and their items, now you can make it something of a risk vs reward. O Alternatively you could count wolves and other villager-eating fauna in the Age of Empires series or the Tiberium monsters protecting resource patches from Command & Conquer.
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Feb 3, 2024 04:48
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Horde 2: Water of the Womb This, and the following mission, were free DLC added in a patch after The Frozen Throne's launch.  So, I've been doing some thinking about the thread's responses to my criticism of the Horde in this campaign between updates. I freely admit that yeah I'm pretty sure I've thought about all this way harder than Blizzard ever did.   We heard reports that the human fleet patrols the channel between the mainland and Theramore Isle. Be wary, mon. They could stand between you and the sorceress you seek.The parallel that most jumped out at me in a gameplay sense wasn't an RPG, but turn-based strategy: I'm a fan of the Civilization franchise (well, some games, I bounced off 6 pretty hard but my first solo LP was Civilization: Beyond Earth), and most Civilization games have generic 'barbarians' to serve as an early game military threat before the 'real' empires start clashing. Civilization has received a lot of criticism for its portrayal of barbarians, nation-states, history, and so on and so forth over the years.  As before I'll cut out all the random exploring, enemies are mostly the same as in Horde 1 but with a few minor changes.   There be hoofprints everywhere! This must be the work of the centaur!Showing the centaurs et al in this mission as active aggressors and quite ruthless and bloodthirsty does perhaps make it go down a little smoother than the naked imperialism of Horde 1, but that just plays into a different set of no less malign stereotypes and storytelling ideas.  This is a sidequest triggered by exploring the first zone and finding the ruined village. As I've already covered in previous lore essays, it is explicit lore in Warcraft that centaurs and harpies are inherently, ontologically evil (because of the miscegnation of their ancestors and a blood curse on their species, respectively), which still leaves the quilboar and murlocs et al still sucking hind tit.  Warcraft's consistent portrayal of these 'minor' races as speaking in crude, broken language (I'm not even going to start on the trolls) does not help Blizzard's case, either.  My personal suspicion, although it is nothing more than speculation, is that all these minor races filled a perceived need by Blizzard's writers to show their heroes as warlike badasses who are stronger and better than other warlike races to establish their credentials and [not exclusively, but almost] manly virtue. I very much suspect that the emotions behind the writers, and the intended reaction by the player base, was 'Look at how cool the heroes are!' rather than 'What a tragic waste of life!'  This mission has a few plot-less side dungeons, like this ancient ruin filled with constructs and undead.  That suspicion certainly fits the comical degree of how TOUGH AND MANLY the Horde is in this game: the only faction in the entire game with no female characters. None. Zero. The Alliance has the sorceresses and Jaina. The undead have the banshees and Sylvanas. The night elves are the night elves. The naga have sorceresses and Vashj. The Burning Legion have female satyrs and demons (we'll see an eredar woman later this update!). I've consistently called the Horde a deeply masculine-coded faction, and it is part of why I've always been so leery of the Horde consistently trampling all over the night elves in the story.  There's also this random temple filled with monsters, undead, and demons.  And a random portal to Outland where you can repeatedly fight three sets of minibosses. Each drops a growing number of tomes for strength, intelligence, and agility in order from top to bottom up to a max of 10 rounds. Any victories past that drop gold.  Moving on with the actual plot, we meet the promised help: a half-naked orc samurai dude with a nodachi named Samuro who speaks in a bad imitation of a Japanese accent.    So... why didn't Vol'jin just transform them into wyverns to fly over and bypass this rigmarole? We put a lot of work into making the props for this part! That doesn't answer my question. There's a sidequest to kill this ?guy? for reasons. Bladestorm is your friend.  And here is the gimmick of this part: Weeb needs to use Wind Walk to sneak through the base to plant explosives, but also use convenient explosive barrels to destroy the detection turrets.   Er... do these fellows know that these humans are part of Daelin's fleet and not Jaina's loyalists?  I don't think they did, no. Samuro has never appeared in WoW, but he's been all over the various spinoff games like Hearthstone. He was, for the record, a tabletop DnD character of Blizzard's now-retired lead artist Samwise Didier.   What are you talking about? I do not seek Thrall's death, nor do I have any intention of breaking the pact we made. Perhaps. But the fact remains that your ships and your warriors have been raiding our encampments on the mainland. I had to bypass a large encampment just to reach you. I assure you I ordered no such attacks. Lead me to these troops, Rexxar. I want to see them for myself.On the one hand, Jaina is innocent. On the other hand, Jaina missed an entire fleet taking control of the seas around Theramore and building fortifications on the mainland right across the channel.  Those snake creatures! They must have destroyed the camp and slaughtered your brethren!And there's the naga I was expecting, albeit not where I expected them.  Jaina is a temporary squadmate for this part, a fully leveled archmage. Alas, her lack of level-up points hints that Rexxar's fear of cooties is such that she will not stay for long.   I do wonder. Given what I later learned of Kul Tiras' internal politics and the powers the Tidesages deal with, were the naga hoping to decapitate House Proudmoore for sake of House Stormsong, or was this an opportunistic raid? Your theory makes as much sense as any other I've heard. Wait, this one's still alive! Mistress Jaina? We've found you... at last! The admiral... will be... overjoyed.This is basically the entire story of the naga in WoW outside Vashj'ir and BfA: if a zone is on the coast, there will be naga coming out of the sea to do... something nefarious, so players will be tasked to go kill them.  But what- Just trust me, Rexxar. I'll explain when we get there.Per Chronicles, Daelin assembled this fleet when Jaina's expedition did not return from Kalimdor. He was expecting her to succeed, then to withdraw and return to Kul Tiras. Jaina never sent word back to Kul Tiras and the Eastern Kingdoms that she and her expedition had decided to settle on Theramore Isle off the coast of Kalimdor. While Jaina and many of the expedition's elite, minus those who died fighting the Horde, night elves, and Legion, were from Kul Tiras, most of the expedition were refugees from the destroyed or about-to-be-destroyed human nations who had no homes to go back to. Rather than make the voyage back across the sea, they decided to return to the uninhabited (well, probably uninhabited to be fair) island that they had made initial landfall on and build a new home there.  I don't understand. What's all this about? Those marines... I know who they are, Rexxar. They're -According to WoW, Daelin had assumed that Jaina's silence from Kalimdor meant that she had died. Daelin's eldest son, and Jaina's older brother, had died fighting the Horde during the Second War, so when Daelin's fleet made it to Kalimdor and promptly ran into orcs and trolls, they assumed that the Horde had killed Jaina and massacred her expedition.   Father, wait! Father?! The Horde is no longer our enemy! The orcs have their own kingdom now. They- You have always been naive, my daughter. You aren't old enough to remember what these monsters did to our homeland. The orcs and their kin cannot be trusted! They must be exterminated like the mongrels they are!I talked about Daelin back when I discussed Kul Tiras, but the story of WoW at large has settled on portraying Daelin Proudmoore as a deeply flawed man who was sent down a very dark path by the death of his beloved son. On the one hand, Daelin is generally held up as the last gasp of the old hatreds and wounds of the Second War. On the other hand, multiple characters in WoW have ruminated on Daelin's example as being a formerly good man who went mad from the death of a loved one. Kul Tiras, of course, remembers Daelin differently, and wrestling with that is part of Jaina's character growth in one of the few generally well-received character arcs from that expansion.  I understand more than you suspect, my dear. Perhaps in time, you will too. Seize them all!Part of this ambiguity, of course, lies in the fact that Theramore will be destroyed by the Horde at the command of Thrall's hand-picked successor as warchief with almost no survivors less than a decade from now in-setting.  Daelin's calls for outright genocide have always been condemned in the harshest possible terms by the story, make no mistake (not that there aren't some players who feel otherwise).  Proudmoore's marines have closed the harbor gates. I'll need to bust them open before I can escape. If I can make it to the open ocean, I should have no trouble reaching the mainland.But more recent story has played Daelin less as a unique and individual monster and more as a man caught up in the cycle of revenge and hatred, who repays evil done to him and his family with evil unto others.  This part of the mission is effectively a replay of that bugged night elf mission where the ground team needs to hit switches to open gates for the transport to pass, winding through the spiral shape of Theramore's harbor.  Be careful - the Kul Tiras marines in this mission are elite forces all substantially more powerful than the norm for the Alliance. This particular fight is a mess, with a level 12 archmage, paladin, and mountain king guarding the exit.  It be takin' the warchief some time to amass the Horde's warriors. You gotta gather what allies you can before the admiral makes his move against Durotar. Take this zeppelin and travel to Mulgore. The mighty tauren who be livin' there will lend what help they can. Seek out the chieftain, Cairne Bloodhoof. He will honor his oath to the warchief.A big part of what frustrates me so much about Warcraft is how I feel like the setting keeps learning and forgetting the same lessons. There's certainly something to be said for the idea of portraying breaking out of the cycle of revenge as hard and takes more than a few false starts before it sticks, if you want to be generous to Blizzard.  Personally, I feel that it's more a symptom of inconsistent storytelling with too many writers who have too many ideas about what they think is cool, coupled with a chronic indecision about what aesthetic and story is 'true' to Warcraft. I doubt very much that the current arc of WoW is going to mean the actual long-term end of the faction war. I don't doubt that Metzen probably means it, but I also think he meant it when writing this game, too.  I come in the name of Thrall, warchief of the Horde. His lands are in danger, and he calls upon his old allies to aid him. I seek the one known as Cairne. Do you know him? I am Cairne, but I can be of help to no one. Return to your warchief and tell him that I am dead... just as my heart is dead.I know the tauren are no less a bundle of stereotypes than the orcs, and patronizingly racist to boot, but I've always found them the most sympathetic and appealing part of the Horde. I feel like you can do worse than have a group of peaceful, gentle giants who only march to war in self-defense or to repay debts they owe to their allies.   Poor Cairne has been lethargic for some time. Without his wisdom and leadership, I fear that the centaur will decimate our tribe. Perhaps if you could find some clue as to his son's fate, it might rouse the chieftain from his stupor? Find Bovan Windtotem out on the plains. He and his brethren will aid you on your search. Venthyr, what do you make of your draconic charge? We're no strangers to her sort in Revendreth. I think Onyxia was, in her twisted way, working to survive and do right by those she cared about. Abuse and evil twisted her, and were at work before she was born. That's... surprisingly generous of you. Our late, unlamented Sire aside, seeing the best in people is our business in Revendreth. Most people who get sent to our care aren't there to be punished. They're the punishment. The kodos' meat and hides are essential to our survival, but the harpies slaughter the beasts and leave their carcasses to rot in the sun. It would be a great help if you would hunt the witches down and end their poaching once and for all.This second bit is a sidequest. Tagar only made his WoW debut in Dragonflight, as it happens. Much as I like the tauren, I feel like WoW's never really known what to do with them and they've been largely irrelevant to Warcraft's ongoing story.  I suppose I hadn't thought of Revendreth like that. We don't make a good first impression, I'll grant you, and the Sire is a case unto himself. I wonder sometimes if that's why he threw in with Zovaal in the first place. His nature is the avatar of redemption, designed by the First Ones in Zereth Mortis. Perhaps he was guided by a sense of seeing the best in Zovaal and trying to help him. You might be surprised what horrors can be caused by a sincere desire to help. And back on the main quest...   I see. I dreamed of this.This is Bovan Windtotem. Like Tagar, his only WoW appearance is in Dragonflight. Unlike Tagar, Bovan did not survive the experience and was killed by the locals before players arrived.  So do you believe, then, what the adventurers claimed about Zovaal's final words? I don't doubt that Zovaal believed that something awful is out there. There always seems to be, doesn't it. Quite so. Bovan is a quasi-hero unit and joins with a bunch of spirit walkers, the Horde's requisite fiddly anti-caster unit introduced in TFT. One interesting perk is that Bovan can revive fallen tauren units, of which there is a steady supply on this mission.  And Onyxia's wife from another timeline sitting with her? You haven't been dead that long, so I guess you haven't gotten used to it. Here in the Shadowlands, 'one true love' is a pretty murky concept with all the alternate timelines. Some shine through across all the timelines, sure, but a lot of people decide to not bother. Frankly, I think it's half the reason the Kyrians do their rite of purity nonsense. Between the alternate timeline selves, the Kyrians' transformations of their physical selves, and their whole thing of being ridiculously noble and self-sacrificing, there are operas about romantic comedy among the Kyrians. Trust me, if that version of Isidora and Onyxia somehow survives as an independent existence, Isidora does the purity thing and loses her memories, Onyxia goes to Bastion when she's ready and purges her memories, then they both fall in love again not knowing who they were and their shared history, that is the plot of half the Kyrian romantic operas right then and there. Those people have way too much time on their hands. Huh. Color me surprised that Baine was in this game. I had no idea he existed until Cairne died in WoW.  Baine joins as a temporary party member for the gauntlet back, where you fight wave after wave after wave of centaurs, many of which are packing reincarnation to drag things out further.  Now, you said that your warchief was in trouble--that the Horde needed the tauren once again. Well, Thrall did much for us in his time, and we will not fail him. My warriors will rendezvous with the warchief upon the battlefield, but I will be returning with you. I wouldn't be so sure about 'a lot of people,' hat trick. I barely had time to process being dead before twiggy showed up next to me. What, did you expect me to let you have the last word about the dog's name? I told you I'd follow you anywhere. I don't recall making an exception for the Shadowlands. Is... is that sort of thing normal for married couples who turn up in the Shadowlands together? Some people simply can't live when their heart is taken from them. Not only is Cairne a fully fledged party member, he still has endurance aura.    Must help. New warlord... conquer clan. Killed many warriors... lead clan to ruin. Brothers not survive. Me... seek help. New warlord, huh? Don't worry, friend. I think I can help you. Have your witch doctors tend to his wounds, Vol'jin. I'm going to pay a little visit to his clan, and meet this new warlord for myself.One map transition later...   You no welcome, halfbreed. You no Stonemaul warrior! Look, I don't want any trouble. I just want to talk with your warlord. You want talk Kor'gall, you get past us!Rexxar's voice acting is kinda funny for this part, I'm not sure whether he's in-character supposed to be struggling to put on the act or whether it's the voice actor having a moment.  It's not a hard fight.  I've... come to join your clan. I want to be a Stonemaul, too. You got some ogre blood. You got right to join... but do you got the strength? We see, halfbreed. We see.Just in case you can't tell, Rexxar's VA makes it clear throughout all of this that he doesn't actually want to join them, he's just manipulating them to get them to join the fight alongside the Horde.  Warcraft very rarely has trickster figures who do this kind of shenanigan, so I found the whole thing pretty funny and that they're using Rexxar of all characters to do it.  The Gauntlet is a short little outdoor dungeon crawl with a boss. Kill everything to win.  I want you and your warriors to help the Horde battle the humans. The Stonemaul clan would be a great asset to the orc warchief. Stupid halfbreed! We ogres split from Horde long ago. They weak--soft. We no owe them nothing! Long as I rule, Stonemauls no help no orcs! Then perhaps you've ruled long enough. Kor'gall, as a member of the Stonemaul clan, I claim the right to challenge you for leadership. Me had no real challenge in long time, halfbreed. Breaking you be fun. We both take Trial of Blood. Me and you. No tricks, no magic toys, just muscle and skills.  Kor'gall, alas, has a critical vulnerability to getting stunlocked by a succession of magic hammers flung at his head.  I have defeated Kor'gall in single combat! I have passed the Trial of Blood! I rule Stonemaul clan now, and I command you all... to war! You ogres arm yourselves and meet the orc warchief upon the plains. Blood and glory to the Stonemaul clan! Rexxar! Rexxar!Stonemaul Village and the Stonemaul ogres are still around and part of the Horde in WoW. Much like the high elves in the Alliance, the ogres have always been around in the Horde but Blizzard remains weirdly resistant to making them playable.   Once again, you have done the Horde a great service, Rexxar. I am in your debt. If you're willing, there's one last thing I need before the hammer falls. We've crafted a new standard for Durotar--a mighty banner bearing the symbol of the Horde. I want to place a shamanistic blessing on it, but I require a few items to complete my spell. Would you gather them for me? Of course, Thrall. I'd be proud to.This mission has, if nothing else, gone down much smoother for me than the last. Even if the fundamental issues are largely the same, the change in presentation - showing the Horde actively under attack, placing the narrative as being on the defensive rather than being the aggressive conquerors - makes it a little more acceptable to me.  Thrall's sidequest just means killing three creeps. I have an easier time playing bad guys in grand strategy games like Total Warhammer and Civilization, I suppose, because what is ostensibly happening is sufficiently abstracted that I don't feel bad. I have a much harder time playing routes I deem evil in small-scale strategy games and role-playing games because they make me feel bad. I'm sorry (well, no, actually I'm not remotely sorry), but I just can't go "Woohoo! Look at me commit those war crimes!" like I've seen some people on the internet talk about.  There, the blessing is complete! One last thing, Rexxar--I want you to carry our standard into battle! I hereby name you... champion of the Horde. It... is an honor, Warchief. I will carry your standard with pride. Lok-Tar Ogar!This is Rexxar's ceremonial title in WoW. For a time, WoW briefly dabbled in making the player character the/a Champion of the Alliance/Horde in a similar kind of vibe before backing off and downgrading the PC's importance int he story.  Warchief, Admiral Proudmoore's forces have begun their advance! They'll be here any moment! Let them come. They'll find the Horde to be more than they bargained for. Rexxar, you've earned the honor of drawing first blood. I'll hold the defenses here, but I want you to lead the attack against Proudmoore's base. Gladly. All right, you warriors--the hour of victory has arrived! Come, you tauren! Rise up, you ogres! Today, you stand united with the Horde! Lok-Tar Ogar!Part of this mission being more palatable to me is of course the old standby of making the other guys just as vile and reprehensible if not more so than the questionable protagonists. It wouldn't be an old favorite of the narrative playbook if it didn't work so well, and frankly I think it's kind of damning of WoW's writing that there's since been something of a case for 'Maybe Daelin was just going a LITTLE too far...'  You get regular units and base-building on this mission should you be so inclined, but on story difficulty it's quite doable with just the heroes. Proudmoore's elite have been buffed to high heavens.  And will regularly attack the home base.  I also had to turn on cheat codes at this point, because there's a bug with Proudmoore: he's invulnerable. He runs off into the fog at about 25% health, and I suspect he's supposed to vanish. Instead he becomes invulnerable and hangs around for the rest of the mission, immune to damage and dealing a shitload in return. The game calls him a paladin, but his powers are instead mostly based on the naga sea witch and he can summon water elementals as well. This is, as they say, a problem.  He will happily follow you all the way back home, too, if you try to retreat.  I wish this was the end of it, Rexxar. But so long as Admiral Proudmoore lives, he'll never stop hounding us. We must press our attack and lay siege to Theramore itself. I only pray that Jaina is safe. She had nothing to do with her father's agenda, but unfortunately, invading her citadel is the only option we have left.Part of the climax of Jaina's character growth in Battle for Azeroth, for the record, is realizing that while Daelin's fundamental motives here were understandable and not inherently bad - fury over the deaths of those he loved and the evil wrought on the nations of Azeroth - he alone chose to turn that into a quest for genocide. No one tricked him, no one mislead him, and no one, not even those he loved whom he still had, could have dissuaded him. Sometimes, the people we love do bad things and there is nothing you can do to turn them back. Next time, the final mission of Warcraft. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Feb 3, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 22:09
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Tide Rolls Out Today's subject, and the final lore essay of this LP, the fate of the Undead Scourge.  I've covered the broad strokes in previous lore updates, but let me refresh you. At some point during Warcraft 3, following the undead campaign of Reign of Chaos, the Scourge that weren't deployed to Kalimdor continued their march south until they came to the border of Gilneas. Under the leadership of King Genn Greymane, and with the aid of Archmage Arugal and the werewolves he unleashed, the army of Gilneas defeated the Scourge in the Scourge's only defeat in open battle they ever suffered during the Eastern Kingdoms campaign. While the costs to Gilneas were great, their victory checked the Scourge's advance. While smaller forces of Scourge advanced into the kingdoms of Alterac and Stromgarde and overwhelmed both nations, both still crippled from their near-total destruction during the Second War, the Scourge's defeat at Gilneas spelled the end of major Scourge expansion. Then the civil war among the Scourge in The Frozen Throne broke the unity of the remaining Scourge forces in the Eastern Kingdoms and ended any notion of regrouping for a second attack on Gilneas, a renewed offensive against Quel'thalas, a strike into Khaz Modan, or even solidifying the Scourge's grip on Lordaeron.  Arthas himself, newly embodied as the Lich King, focused his efforts on consolidating the Scourge's position in Northrend instead. Under his command the Scourge broke the Drakkari Empire of the frost trolls, largely removed the dragons from Northrend, and began a grinding war against the armies of Yogg-Saron centered on his stronghold in Ulduar. By all indications, by the time the heroes of Azeroth arrived in Northrend the Scourge was openly winning that war, too. The Scourge in general was far from idle during the six years between The Frozen Throne and Wrath of the Lich King, and advanced its technology, magic, and army significantly. Arthas awoke and subverted the vrykul, developed the third generation of death knights (even if most of them would later betray him), and unlocked the secrets of the magic super-material saronite. WotLK noted repeatedly that the forces of Azeroth were very wise to have struck when they did: time was an ally of the Scourge, and the longer the Scourge was left unchecked in Northrend the stronger they would get. In strategy game terms, Arthas was turtling and teching up, hard. Perhaps most notably, Arthas created a new generation of frost wyrms based on the matriarch Sindragosa. Sindragosa had been Malygos' great love and prime consort before her murder at Deathwing's hands during the War of the Ancients - she's the colossal frost wyrm you see in all the Wrath of the Lich King art. Raised as the most powerful frost wyrm ever created, even Arthas could barely keep Sindragosa from breaking free and he had to resort to raising all of Sindragosa's children, binding their souls into frost whelps and holding the threat of torturing them to coerce Sindragosa into compliance. Sindragosa, like most frost wyrms, was grateful to the heroes when they slew her.  As we discussed last week, Arthas' overconfidence and a lux ex machina were ultimately his undoing, but this did not mean the end of the Scourge. You see, the central artifact of the Lich King was not Frostmourne but the Helm of Domination. This was the artifact that contained the arcane mechanisms that allowed the Lich King's control over the Scourge. Without the Helm and a will in control, the Scourge would turn feral and begin mindlessly attacking all the living. Arthas, for all his evil, had clear purpose in his actions and kept the Scourge under tight control (in fact it's been suggested that this very firmness of control is what made the Ebon Blade's rebellion possible, Arthas' will and attention was simply too diffuse and scattered to force them back into compliance in the moment). When Arthas was destroyed, the Scourge threatened to run rampant anew. The solution, you see above. Paladin Bolvar Fordragon had been Prince Anduin Wrynn's regent during Varian's absence, and then commanded the Alliance forces at the Wrath Gate. As we've discussed, the armies at the Wrath Gate were massacred - but Bolvar had survived, healed by the cleansing fire of Alexstrasza's breath because she knew what was at stake. And when Arthas' soul left the mortal world, the horrifically scarred Bolvar Fordragon stepped out of the darkness to don the Helm of Domination and become the third Lich King, imprisoning himself within the Frozen Throne and styling himself the Jailer of the Damned. While unable to destroy or free the Scourge himself, Bolvar withdrew the Scourge to Northrend to make ready for what he suspected was coming: the return of the Burning Legion. In the meantime, he gave the Ebon Blade leave to act as ambassadors between the Frozen Throne and the rest of Azeroth. This was the state of the Scourge for most of WoW's run: an unnatural disaster held in check by the heroic will of one man preparing for apocalypse.  When Legion came and went without that proving necessary (Bolvar was the head boss for death knight PCs), the story instead shifted to the idea that Bolvar's grasp on the Scourge was starting to weaken and bands of Scourge such as the San'layn vampires were breaking free and seeking their own ambitions. Some made noises about joining the Forsaken, some seem to have joined the Ebon Blade, and some were acting on their own. Then Sylvanas kicked off Shadowlands proper by curb stomping Bolvar and destroying the Helm of Domination to open the portal to the Shadowlands. While Bolvar spent that expansion playing big cheese at headquarters, the game started dropping more hints that, as promised, without the Helm of Domination to keep a Lich King controlling the Scourge, the undead were threatening to run rampant across Azeroth. Most players assumed that the story was setting up for a return to Northrend expansion to face the undead anew. Then Dragonflight said that yeah no during the timeskip the Knights of the Ebon Blade spent those five years on a nonstop spree of destruction in Lordaeron and Northrend, laying waste to the Scourge off-camera. Threat ended, plot thread severed, the end. Bit of an anticlimax, I know.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:10
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Small note about Baine himself: In the rescue segment, he is represented as a generic, level 2 Tauren Chieftain (that cannot gain further experience), making him combat-capable, but very weak compared to the heroes. In a recent "All The Major Heroes Show Up" battle moment in recent WoW patches, lots of iconic Hero Groups could be seen fighting together in different areas of the battlefield, even including Jaina, Thrall, and Tyrande all fighting next to each other in a neat callback to Hyjal. Rexxar, Rokhan, and Chen are all together, with Baine himself filling the position in this party left vacant by his late father. But I digress, I just wanted to mention that little reunion while my mind was on it. But the point I was ACTUALLY getting at, is that he was present in WoW as well, before Cataclysm saw the death of Cairne and Baine's promotion to new High Chieftain of the Tauren. He was down in Bloodhoof Village in Mulgore, as little more than a questgiver in the level 1-10 Tauren zone. But he was there.
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Feb 3, 2024 22:41
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Cythereal posted:While unable to destroy or free the Scourge himself Cythereal posted:As we discussed last week, Arthas' overconfidence and a lux ex machina were ultimately his undoing I'm familiar with the storyteller term, but... "light from the machine" makes it sound like he was defeated by a flashlight or something.
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Feb 3, 2024 23:05
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Cythereal posted:
Also I was wrong earlier - Rokhan gets three lines in this campaign.
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Feb 3, 2024 23:27
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Nostalgamus posted:There's a rather important line missing here, where the dying footman recognizes Jaina and mentions how happy the admiral will be. Whoops, fixed and edited back into the post, thank you! Gun Jam posted:Not enough control over 'em to give "jump into the fireplace" orders? Evidently not, nope.
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Feb 3, 2024 23:33
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Gun Jam posted:Not enough control over 'em to give "jump into the fireplace" orders? I have never seen it before as anything other than "deus ex machina". And there, the god from the machine was literal, as gods were brought on stage with a machine (raising or lowering depending) before doing deus ex machina things.
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Feb 3, 2024 23:33
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It's a perversion of the traditional term because it's The Light(tm) doing it.
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Feb 3, 2024 23:35
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FoolyCharged posted:It's a perversion of the traditional term because it's The Light(tm) doing it. Yup. Calling it deus ex machina felt a bit off in this context. 
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Feb 3, 2024 23:37
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Cythereal posted:Arthas himself, newly embodied as the Lich King, focused his efforts on consolidating the Scourge's position in Northrend instead. Under his command the Scourge broke the Drakkari Empire of the frost trolls, largely removed the dragons from Northrend, and began a grinding war against the armies of Yogg-Saron centered on his stronghold in Ulduar. By all indications, by the time the heroes of Azeroth arrived in Northrend the Scourge was openly winning that war, too. Is there a single villain defeated in WoW who wasn't actually fighting another, worse villain, who then sprung up and threatened everyone once the first villain was removed from play?
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Feb 3, 2024 23:52
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Cythereal posted:
The Jailer's entire plot was devised to destroy this forum
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Feb 3, 2024 23:54
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Technically the centaurs who wiped out the orc camp and put some of them in surprisingly indestructible cages for no reason are still the ones defending their land against hostile invaders. Such a betrayal to reference a much better written game.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:04
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Fajita Queen posted:The Jailer's entire plot was devised to destroy this forum The Jailer really is the most intelligent and compelling character in the whole franchise then
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Feb 4, 2024 00:06
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PurpleXVI posted:Is there a single villain defeated in WoW who wasn't actually fighting another, worse villain, who then sprung up and threatened everyone once the first villain was removed from play? It's the general problem with Blizzard's storytelling and how it connects specifically to an MMO. An MMO demands a constant churn of new expansions and patches, and Blizzard loves their big comic book stories and big comic book villains. But that means each expansion needs a new Big Hammy Villain to fight, and since you've gained ten levels since last expansion, he has to be even bigger threat then the last big bad guy. And because Blizzard for a long time treated each storyline as it's own unique thing...that meant WoW was utterly abysmal at actually building up new threats, since, well, that's gonna be its own story. I wouldn't be surprised if, often enough, Blizzard didn't even decide on who the big villain would be before they actually released the expansion or patch in question. It also, maybe weirdly, connects to one of the things I've often seen WoW lauded for in comparison to other MMOs - their actual individual zone by zone content is, as I understand, usually pretty drat good. But that's at the cost of disconnecting all of it from an overarching storyline. So that means your final baddie and final fight is...disconnected from everything else you've done. So, the easiest way Blizzard could think to hype him up was to go "he's so big and bad, the LAST big boss you killed was fighting him! Remember how hard and evil that last boss was? This guy's WORSE!" All of this is super solveable! Maybe you do an expansion that has a big storyline that isn't yet another fight to save the world. Maybe you actually plan a storyline longer then a single patch cycle in advance. Maybe you actually tie your zones together. Maybe you give an actual narrative theme to your expansion so the baddie can connect in something beyond an immediate in-universe threat. I'll note that these problems progressively got worse and worse the longer WoW went on, because the second way they hyped up villains was by just making them dudes from previous games, but you run out of those when you keep killing them off. The Jailer is pretty much just the crown turd in this chain. The goal with him seemed to be: "let's unite all the past storylines together into one extra big bad guy!" This is inherently loving dumb. And then the execution of it also sucked. Blizzard wants to make their big comic book plots, and this was definitely some of the worst stereotypes of comic book writing all condensed into one. It's worth noting that there may have been another reason for this - I dunno if it's ever been proven, but at the time, WoW's biggest rival, FFXIV, had just finished an overwhelmingly beloved expansion with heavy themes about death and memory, and had openly said that the next expansion was going to be the finale of the storyline they'd been building up ever since the MMO first came out, so scuttlebutt was that a decent chunk of Shadowlands' narrative sins boiled down to trying to capture the same energy FFXIV had without doing any of the actual work of writing it all together. Either way, the Jailer plotline is maybe not the most offense one in WoW, and might not've involved the most previous character assassination, but it will probably be remembered as the dumbest and least earned.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:35
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Poil posted:Technically the centaurs who wiped out the orc camp and put some of them in surprisingly indestructible cages for no reason are still the ones defending their land against hostile invaders. Well.... unless you consider the story that has them spilling out from Maraudon and Desolace like a plague and spilled across Kalimdor and have been raiding the nomadic Tauren ever since and slowly driving them to extinction. It's literally only in the aftermath of Warcraft 3 that they end up setting up a more permanent settlement in Mulgore.
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Feb 4, 2024 00:47
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Horde 3: The Tempest So begins the final mission of the Warcraft saga.  drat it. I should have thought of this sooner. We've got to find some way to-The LP ends as it began: orcs and humans.   We've bled together on many battlefields, Jaina. We've faced untold perils as allies. But your father threatens the security of our nation and the very future of my people. You know how this has to end. I know, Thrall. Do what you must. There is a goblin shipyard on a nearby island that could provide you with warships of your own. With those, you could scatter the blockade surrounding Theramore. But please, spare my men if you can. My father will try to use them against you, but they're the only real family I'll have left when this is over. Please do this... for me. We'll do all we can, Jaina. You have my word. Now you'd better make yourself scarce. The battle's about to begin.No cosmic evil, no ancient prehistory. No bondage nipple man, whatever Steve Danuser says.  See it done, Rexxar. I'll meet you at Theramore.Just two high-speed trains of war crimes, mass slaughter, racism, and hatred on a collision course.  The end of Reign of Chaos promised that orcs and humans had let go of their hatreds and found common purpose.  But someone had to go and put the WAR in WARcraft, not PEACEcraft.  As the audience wonders if maybe this time we've seen the last race war and calls for massacre.  The humans who have lived with us on Theramore, who have worked with us for months, who helped us move this castle to protect the world tree, who joined us to explore Kalimdor, who have begun to build the future of Durotar with us, these people know that we are neither the enemy nor the devil. We don't always agree. We have some damned good fights in fact, but we always come away from them with a little better understanding and appreciation of each other.Would that this had been how it ended.  For me, the finale to this LP feels appropriately melancholy.  I don't know if I've ever seen a franchise so dedicated to undoing whatever hopeful messages they'd hoped to convey through their games as Warcraft.  Theramore will be struck with a weapon that scars the weave of time itself.  Jaina will take up her father's rank as Grand Admiral and raise his flagship from the deep to serve as her own vessel.  You've done well, Rexxar. You're a natural leader. You remind me of Hellscream, in a way. Thank you, Warchief. Now only one task remains. We must storm the citadel and deal with Admiral Proudmoore once and for all.I think what gets me most about this mission is the sheer, tragic pointlessness of it all.  Lok-Tar Ogar! For the Horde! For Durotar! We are with you, Rexxar. Lead on!No one learns a thing from these events in any lasting way.  Between the warp and the weft of Blizzard's storytelling, I find myself with precious little to comment on positively regarding this campaign.  To call Rexxar two dimensional is being exceedingly generous, and everyone else in this campaign is less than that.  It's an impressive and novel technical achievement, such as this part of the mission where you control the heroes while the AI ally floods the map in a tide of mooks, but that side of the games has never been my area of interest.  I am, always have been, and always will be a player driven by story and character more than anything else.   Daelin's final questions are ones that Warcraft wrestles with to this day. Thrall's Horde will in fact fall to infighting and civil war, more than once. They will commit genocide again. Have they paid for sins past and present? Can there even really be justice? From Blizzard, the answer depends on who you ask, what expansion you're in, and what they had for breakfast.  I have no answers. My dissatisfaction with Blizzard's attempts at answering them is part of why I've tried to walk away from this franchise.  Father... why wouldn't you listen? Above all else, Jaina, he was a proud warrior. Remember him as such. Durotar is now safe. We have no further quarrel with these humans. We will leave your isle in peace, Jaina. I pray we never have to come here again. Farewell, sorceress.Make of Daelin's final moments what you will.   Thank you all for coming for tonight's performance of Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne. I am the Winter Queen, Avatar of Renewal. Lady Moonberry, courtier of the Night Fae! Just 'warden' will do, thanks. Isidora Turan, alternate timeline King of Stormwind. Onyxia, daughter of Neltharion. Aegwynn the Magna, Guardian of Tirisfal. Tirion Fordring, Highlord of the Knights of the Silver Hand. Ysera the Dreamer, Aspect of Nature. Bwonsamdi, Loa of Death! Kael'thas Sunstrider, Prince of Quel'thalas. Azélie Zéphyrine Mireille Perenolde, Princess of Alterac. Xiulan Wavestrider, Huojin adept. GROM MOTHERFUCKING HELLSCREAM! Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne ends with the hope of a better tomorrow built on peace and cooperation, and the dream that the hatreds and divisions of the past have been laid to rest. The dream of Theramore will last just seven years before being consigned to fire along with those who dreamed it. This has been the saga of Warcraft. Cythereal fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Feb 4, 2024 |
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Feb 4, 2024 03:03
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Beyond the Farthest Star One by one, the dead of Azeroth got up from their seats and walked away. Some with purpose, heading for the way back to where they belonged. Some lingered to talk with friends, comrades, enemies. Grom Hellscream challenged Saidan Dathrohan to an arm-wrestling contest. Others drifted into the courtyard before the Winter Queen's palace, drawn by some lingering instinct of life. Tucked away in the boughs of the great tree, fauns and fae played melodies that seemed to mute the world beyond. Stars in swirling patterns laid out in some unknowable age bathed the courtyard in soft fire, a light within the dark. This was the nature of Ardenweald, life in death. Malygos, in life known as the Spellweaver, bowed courteously to his first and greatest love, stolen from him so long ago by Deathwing's treachery and artifice. How much of that ancient dragon's madness had been born of loss? For eons he had sought only to learn and preserve, teaching any who shared the old wyrm's eternal thirst to know more. A thirst for knowledge once born of a love for Azeroth and its workings, the thrill of discovery that never grew old. He had been complete once, and this night the former Aspect of Magic was whole once more as Sindragosa moved with him into the courtyard, dancing to a tune only they could hear. For here, the eons of pain and madness were at last at an end. Here, even Deathwing's memory could dwindle into insignificance, and Sindragosa forget the Lich King who had raised and bound her. Neither of them had been sad to leave the world of mortals behind, nor had they any desire to go back. They had each other here, and the thirst for learning and discovery that could not be quenched. Others stepped into the starlight in their turn, some of them reunited in peace, others after so long torn apart. King Terenas and Queen Lianne Menethil of Lordaeron. King Llane and Queen Taria Wrynn of Stormwind. Durotan and Draka of the Frostwolf Clan. Tirion and Karandra Fordring. A few lingered at the entrance to the clearing, eyes searching the crowd for someone whose time had not yet come. Daelin Proudmoore, on temporary release from Revendreth. Naisha, the night elf Watcher. A woman who had been young in her time, Anaya Dawnrunner. For love eternal, the departed waited to be complete once more. In this place where flesh was a memory, all the pains of life slipped away from the soul. For all the wars that had raged across Azeroth, for all the suffering and death, these things were not eternal. War was not, and never would be, the end of Azeroth's story, or that of her people. Isidora hovered on the threshold, drawn by instinct to this affirmation of life. Had she ever been in love? A good question. Her 'true' self, the one of the bronze dragons' self-proclaimed true timeline, had not. She had flirted and fought, but none of her dalliances had meant anything. This version of her, still clinging to existence by the will of the Winter Queen, had married out of politics and her wife had secretly been a monster. Had there been any truth to their pantomime of a relationship? Onyxia was not human and never had been. She wasn't even humanoid or a mammal. Then had come the Ebon Blade, and a what might have been called an emotional affair with a similarly lonely Kirin Tor archmage of comparable years. Modera had, at least, understood her. Power was a heavy burden to bear, and had a way of twisting one's perceptions for those of a self-aware bent. War had transformed Isidora in ways she still struggled to understand, but one lesson had been to teach her awareness of her own place in the world, and how her actions had affected others. What room was there in such a heart for love? Unfamiliar feelings welled up deep inside Isidora, Kyrian aspirant, as a mismatched couple of a human woman with curly red hair and a long-tailed pandaren woman glided past. Somehow the human kept pace with her larger companion and made their dance look graceful, a familiarity clearly borne of long practice. With her broken leg, Isidora had never danced since the accident. At her own royal ball, the King of Stormwind had been forced to stand aside, hand tight on the wooden cane she needed to walk. She'd been an enthusiastic dancer once, never appreciating what she'd had in so many ways. Envy, plain and simple, coiled in the back of Isidora's throat as she once again watched people enjoy what life had denied her. A small price to pay for a woman with the will and ability to save Stormwind, perhaps. Isidora bit the thought back. These people, this endless night, were happy. For a human, even a king, to feel jealousy at the sight was unbecoming. She had chosen this life, and there was no life without cost. This courtyard, these people, reeked of sacrifice. So many of them had died violently. Some of them as heroes, others as villains. One king's loneliness was a small price to pay. Even knowing that... swallowing her pain only moved the hurt deeper inside. Isidora's own marriage had been a deception. Hadn't it? Only the touch of soft, familiar fingers on Isidora's face made her realize that she'd been crying. In her visage, Onyxia was a woman of beauty beyond compare. Or at least Isidora had always thought so. Onyxia's face could have been chiseled from pale marble by a master sculptor, sharply defined yet somehow delicately featured, the sort of look that makeup could only detract from rather than add to. Her eyes were the grey of sea foam cresting on shore, and hair dark as a new moon fell past her shoulders, simple yet more breathtaking than many women could achieve in hours with a professional. The very first night they had met, Isidora had dreamed about Katrana Prestor. All of it a lie. Katrana was no more her name than this vision of beauty was her face. Onyxia's real face was long and covered in black scales, framed by horns sharp as daggers. Isidora had seen her wife's skull on display in what had been their home. Here, in this place beyond the limitations of the mortal plane, that treachery almost didn't seem to matter. Just as Isidora was both the libertine wastrel and the King of Stormwind, Onyxia was both human woman and dragon depending on how you looked at her. It was in the tilt of the head, which self was true. Isidora and Onyxia had never met in the real timeline. Both of those were true, too. Isidora looked at those grey eyes, thinking of their wedding day and all the times they had made love, and wondered what she was thinking. Onyxia's own thoughts were less different than Isidora realized. To be a shapeshifter as dragons were had always meant being of two minds, two selves, two bodies. Onyxia had been a broodmother, and she had been a queen. Only in death had she realized that her family, to whom she had sacrificed so much, had never appreciated her. She'd always thought of her sacrifices - her happiness, her independence, her possibility of finding her own path - as noble ones. Never mind the Void that had soaked her from the egg, a child's desire to be loved by their parents would have been motivation enough. She'd molded herself as her father had desired, a weapon to be used against mortals. As a black dragon, she'd seen past the comforting lies that their cousins preached, embraced the uncomfortable and inconvenient facts of life. She had made the sacrifice that short-sighted idealists were unwilling to. Deathwing had made cruelty and violence sound noble, but in truth he needn't have bothered. Onyxia had been everything her father had ever asked of her. She had been cruel and merciless and efficient. She'd taken pride in killing, in deception and terror and relentless sadism. She'd hatched clutch after clutch of eggs, hurling her whelps into battle without a care. All of it, in the end, for nothing. In almost every timeline, the human Varian Wrynn stood at the end of her path with his enchanted blades. Then her soul had been brought before the Arbiter, and sent to a land of darkness. The very first thing her Warden had asked of her was the question Onyxia still could not answer. What had she done all of these terrible things for? The cause? Honor? Her father? What good was being a predator, a strong-willed being who had made the hard choices, if this was the end point of it all? Onyxia's life had been defined by power, and that power meant nothing in this place. Here, in Ardenweald, Onyxia felt like she was looking in a mirror. The power Isidora had wielded in life, that had cost her so much to gain and then to wield, had been so different from any that Onyxia had ever understood. As King of Stormwind, Isidora could not breathe fire but she could make armies march. She could not fly, but she could order a castle built. She had no claws, but a few spoken words could condemn a man to death. Isidora was no dragon, but in some senses she was more powerful, more terrifying than Onyxia had ever been. That black hair of hers, the color of a raven's feathers, was so painfully like Onyxia's own. Her face was wider, softer, more gently curved with drops of amber for eyes. Onyxia had chosen her visage because she'd liked the imagery, black and white and without color. Strong and imposing, to a young dragon's mind. Isidora had been, by sheer chance of humanoid biology and inheritance, so much like her. Just a little darker skin, a flash of color in her face with those eyes of honey. Even puffed up and reddened with tears, Onyxia couldn't help but feel that Isidora was a vision of herself, perfected. Perfected through those little imperfections of chance and life's journey that made Onyxia's visage look so artificial. Isidora's self shone through even her Kyrian form, in this night of all nights, all the magic of Bastion falling away as two souls who had once sworn to love and stand by one another for all time, both of them knowing they spoke lies, looked at each other in the starlight. Onyxia's hand fell on Isidora's, still wet from brushing the other woman's tears. Crying in her visage was something Onyxia had never learned how to do. She'd scarcely understood the notion in her dragon form. To admit weakness in Deathwing's brood was to invite extinction. Cowardice was a rule lethally enforced in the Black Dragonflight. In life Onyxia would have mocked the notion. What strength could there be in weakness? How could displaying strength be a mark of fear and vulnerability? All those thoughts ended in the same place: the blades of Varian Wrynn. Onyxia had been dead for a long time, and her spirit had come to understand a few things that her mind still hesitated to process. When Isidora pushed Onyxia's hand back to her own face, there was water there as well. Or something like water, welling up from this body of anima that was both dragon and human. The path ahead of them both was still so uncertain. Which version of them was true, where did their own paths lead? What had their time together in a world that never was yet would always be even meant? By all rights they should have despised each other, hated the deception and manipulation that had brought them together. Isidora had been one of the unlikeliest of heroes, Onyxia a terrible evil. But what good had dwelling on that ever done? What had any of this meant? Perhaps the answer was found in the touch of their lips, eyes and skin speaking a language no ear could detect. Perhaps there simply was no meaning, no lesson to be learned any more than there had been from the play that had reunited them. To their ears, the song the fauns played had been at the ball celebrating their wedding. Neither king nor queen had danced, the king unable to on her ruined body and the queen simply not knowing how in her visage. In that errant grain of sand, that lost fragment of possibility, past and present blurred. Life and death, entwined beneath the boughs of Ardenweald. In this place beyond flesh and time, their bodies long buried and cold, some part of them would always remain here. The dragon and the warlord, dancing forever among the stars.
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Feb 4, 2024 03:04
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Post-Script: The Nine Billionth Name At long last, here we are at the end of things. To say this project escalated beyond my initial plans would be a significant understatement. What began as some jokes on discord turned into this, and what a long, strange road this has been. Overall, I'm happy with the way this LP has gone. There have been plenty of bumps along the way, but they were mostly bumps I was expecting at the start. Frankly, I'm calling this LP's base of commenters pretty well behaved compared to what I'd feared. These games, as I think I've gotten across, have not always been enjoyable to play. They have been fun at times, and I certainly found some interest in finally experiencing where Warcraft all began, but for everything else there's cheat codes. I enjoyed the narrative writing, too. Isidora, Taria, Validormi, Azélie, Xiulan, Niamh, and all the rest were characters I enjoyed writing. I still have an attachment to Warcraft, make no mistake. I wouldn't have embarked on this project, far less seen this through, otherwise. And yet, that attachment is a singularly mixed thing. I have a lot of feelings about Warcraft as a setting, as a series of video games, and even as a community. Most of those feelings are negative, and I have expounded on them at great length. Some of those feelings are still positive, and I hope I've communicated that in addition to my generally critical mood.  As for Warcraft 3... it's a mess. One of my great questions when starting this LP was me wondering, how would Warcraft 3 hold up to me with adult eyes, with knowledge and experience of how the franchise panned out? There are parts of Warcraft 3 that absolutely have stood the test of time and Blizzard in my eyes. The gameplay has generally been pretty fun, if mission design occasionally baffling. I still love the lore and flavor of the night elves as a concept, they hooked me as a child for reasons that I feel hold up now (even if Blizzard has never known what to do with them beyond kill them). There are specific characters like Maiev Shadowsong and Jaina Proudmoore who I still adore as characters, even if their character squiggles in WoW have been spectacularly bumpy. I enjoyed the tower defense diversion in TFT, and I think the art design of the maps - no comment on the units - really benefited from Reforged, especially the Broken Isles. There were even small changes in Reforged that I liked, notably the redesign of Silvermoon City. And Arthas, well. His character may not work for me, but I recognize a well-crafted story when I see one, and I think that it's with very good reason that the Alliance campaign of Reign of Chaos puts such a fond memory of the game in so many peoples' heads. I don't feel like Blizzard has ever approached the ice-cold swerve of Stratholme and how horrifyingly reasonable and pragmatic Arthas' decisions there are. It's not for lack of trying, and personally I feel that Blizzard's attempts to make lightning strike twice in that regard have caused them an awful lot of issues over the years. Alas, most of my thoughts about this game, when I think about my experiences with it, are not positive ones. In particular, the sheer amount of bugs and crashing I've had to put up with is simply unacceptable. I got through them, but I would never recommend Reforged for purchase on account of the technical issues alone. I feel that the story of Warcraft 3 is also, in general, deeply inconsistent, constantly trying to do too much with too little time while wasting what time they have. I cared for very few of the major characters throughout this, and must again single out Medivh as an utter blight on the storytelling in Reign of Chaos. For as pivotal a figure in the story as he is, he does almost nothing beyond crazed ranting that characters arbitrarily believe or not as the story requires. Then you get characters like Illidan who cartwheel in and out of focus like gymnasts at a middle school talent show, their motives and goals changing from appearance to appearance. Warcraft remains colorful, distinctive, and deeply characterful. I understand why it became such a success, even if I do not share that esteem now.  I suppose the question is worth considering: do I think that there is hope for Warcraft as a franchise? Anything is possible, but I think that some things are more likely than others. I think that Warcraft's future as a franchise depends on how honest the decision-makers at Blizzard are with themselves, what risks they're willing to take, how much humility they're willing to show both to themselves and to the players, and whether the people capable of making these decisions even want to go to the means required to salvage Warcraft. I'm not willing to place bets on any of these questions. If what people have told me on discord and PMs over the course of this project is true, then I do have readers who work at Blizzard who have enjoyed my writing and agree with at least some of my criticisms. But even assuming that those people are genuine, I'm skeptical that any of them are the people who can make the decisions meaningful to Warcraft's future. There are still things, in my eyes, that Warcraft in general and World of Warcraft in specific do that I simply cannot get anywhere else. As much as we like to make fun of the 80s wizard van aesthetic of Warcraft, that endures as a strong and distinct aesthetic that lends the series a lot of character. World of Warcraft has given me a few of my all time greatest video game memories. A few of my all time worst video game memories, too. The first time I walked through the Dark Portal in The Burning Crusade and arrived in Hellfire Peninsula. The time I was sexually harassed so severely by my raiding guild that I quit the guild and never raided again. A guild-run series of assaults on the Horde capital cities that killed the faction leaders and netted me my black war bear. Getting told by a GM that a guild named 'Dicks Cure Dykes' didn't violate any rules. Vashj'ir. The War of Thorns storyline. One of the big things I ask of any game, particularly a collaborative experience like an MMO, is to feel welcome. I approach a lot of games from a feeling that I'm a minority in many respects. I hold a mix of beliefs that seems to be rather rare, at least in the online circles I frequent, and what I value and appreciate in a story is different from most. Warcraft did at one time genuinely meet many of these feelings and values. Condemning war as a foolish and self-destructive thing that ruins everything and everyone it touches. Strong female characters playing dramatic and heroic roles in a story. What I at least perceived to be LGBT-positive spaces. What seemed to me, at least, to be a central premise that former enemies not only must put aside old hatreds and move forward together, but that such a thing could last and truly be a positive thing for all sides. Jaina Proudmoore was one of my great fictional heroines and role models as a teenager for some very good reasons. Yet that time when I did feel welcome in Warcraft is approaching twenty years old, and I haven't felt welcome in Warcraft for a long time. The setting seems to have no place for people like me anymore, people who remembered Warcraft 3's story of pride and hatred leading the world to the brink of ruin and the world's only hope being a bunch of people taking a long step out on a thin branch of hope. Dragonflight purported to be about that, then there was a quest on the PTR making players actively complicit in Alexstrasza's sexual slavery. Blizzard did remove it from the PTR before that story patch went live, but as far as I'm concerned it says damning things about Blizzard that not only did someone come up with that quest and not immediately get slapped down, a lot of work went into making that quest from many people, and no one decided it was a bad idea and removed it until there was an extensive internet outcry. As things currently stand, none of that is in my power to judge or influence. I am, at this point, merely a bystander to Warcraft's story. I am no longer involved in that story playing out because I feel that I as a person am not desired in that story and experience. My log-in stats and monthly subscription fee, but not me.  So for whatever this is worth, from this one goon's point of view, here's some suggestions for Blizzard about what they could to to bring me back to the game. 1. Use any of the plot devices at your disposal to undo the War of Thorns. Accept the mulligan, acknowledge that you are not and never were up to the task of writing a story about genocide, and move on. 2. Do not bring Sylvanas Windrunner back. Ever. The character is hopelessly poisoned and so is the entire community experience and discourse surrounding her. 3. Show both factions being penitent for their crimes. I would of course prefer the Horde as a political institution destroyed wholesale, but I think for the health of the game and community a better way forward would be to sincerely embrace both sides acknowledging their misdeeds and working together. Not automatically forgiven, not written off to a time skip, show these things as something happening, in the present tense. Such a conclusion should feel earned in the narrative, not arbitrarily pronounced by author's fiat. 4. Show - don't tell, show - Azeroth being an open and affirming place to be. I'm not only speaking of LGBT characters, but show that there is a place in this world for those who don't fight and show that they have value. 5. Stop putting important plot events and characters in books. Books are nice. I enjoy reading books. I own a lot of books. I do not read books to find out what's happening in video games. The short story anthology was a good idea. More of that, less of 'read this book to find out why this character did what they did!' Especially when your book doesn't actually tell us why the character did what they did. 6. Enough of the goddamn dragon rape. 7. Stop raping your employees. Ultimately, as I see things, whether Warcraft can be saved - however you want to define that - is a question that only Blizzard can answer. I expect none of these suggestions to be followed. Given Blizzard's record over the last twenty years, I'm not optimistic. I maintain what I said before: unless the genocide of the night elves is retconned or undone, or that story is concluded to my satisfaction, I am extremely unlikely to ever pay Blizzard another red cent.  As for the LP, I've heard plenty of criticism over the course of this project and others of how I write. Some of this criticism I agree with, some I do not. There's always room to improve, I'm not one for hagiography even of my own work. But there is one point that I would like to address, while I'm in the dressing down phase of this post, and that is the people who have asked me if I'll ever write happy people living happy lives. To which my answer is simply: not when I'm writing a story about war and adventure. To write a character dedicating their life to the taking of life and ruination of things permits nothing else in the way I see the world. To write a character who does such things as happy and always ready for more is, in my eyes, sociopathic. Portraying such a character as always willing to try their best and keep going no matter how bad things get no matter how long the journey is, in my eyes, is neither heroic nor admirable nor relatable as human. Such a character, as I see things, is a monster in human skin. If that's a deal-breaker for you, I respect your conviction. I know I write from a minority point of view in many respects. But I simply can not, and could not, write a character leading a story like one of the Warcraft games who is happy and at peace with themselves during their lives. I enjoy writing good guys, after all.  I owe a lot of people a huge debt of gratitude for this project, too many to name. In particular, I'd like to thank Azzur whose narrative LP of the first two games inspired this wackadoodle endeavor in the first place, and my beta readers, most notably Kliff and non-goon Slythistle for putting up with my ramblings when I've felt unsure about my posting. Regarding the future, I'm planning another LP, but I'll probably take a break to relax and do some thinking. This LP has given me a lot to think about, particularly when it comes to LPing a game that doesn't excite me to be playing and sharing like all of my past LPs did. The thread's strong reception of my lore posts has been particular food for thought, folks at least seem to think I do a good job of explaining and presenting lore and story. But, to be blunt, the toll this LP took on me mentally has been a legitimate thing. Much as I enjoy writing, explaining lore, and weaving a narrative, I'll need to think about the scope of commitments I want to make and how I conduct my work flow. They can't all be two-page LPs like Abzű was. For now, I wash my hands of Warcraft.  Thank all y'all for reading!
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Feb 4, 2024 03:05
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Thank you for the LP.
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Feb 4, 2024 03:41
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Thank you for your service.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:23
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Thanks for the LP! It was a hell of a job, and so drat much that it was hard to keep everything straight because woo boy I am not enmeshed in WOW-era lore. But it was interesting, if only to see how wacky and kinda dumb it all got. And also god drat absolutely take a break. This was a lot.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:25
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We've certainly had disagreements and clashes over the course of this, and a lot of it is in how we both approach the story of fictional works in general, but drat if you didn't power through this and get it done. A big part of the reason I kept getting frustrated toward the end here is because when I immerse myself in a story, I immerse myself IN the story, and all other things cease to exist. The writers don't exist. The real world, and any parallels to it, don't exist. Unless they're being screamed at the top of the writers' lungs as a very specific parallel to a real world, the thought simply never enters my head. Whereas you see these parallels, and either choose not to, or perhaps in direct opposite of me, are incapable of ignoring them. You see the writers and what they've written... all I see is the world around me in the game. And those two styles clash really, really badly when those parallels to the real world are... problematic. However, it's good to have that external view, and indeed, I'm glad I stuck through this, because while your views do lean toward unfair levels of scrutiny (by your own admission), having these views out there provides an extremely important contrast to the Blind Faith Fans who are incapable of seeing flaws in their beloved franchise. I'm not quite that bad, as I do try to maintain an awareness that yes, the writing of this franchise is heavily flawed. However, because of how I interact with the story, I find myself able to cherish it regardless, and I will fully admit that the fact that this has been my favorite fictional setting since before I was 10, reading the Warcraft 2 manual well before I had any idea how to play the game, is absolutely a factor in my love for the series. Thank you, Cythereal, for this Marathon of a Let's Play. Holy crap, you did it.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:25
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Yeah, this was a great LP of ridiculously sprawling scale, and I've genuinely enjoyed following it. And I think you're a pretty damned good writer, Cyth. Thanks for suffering for our enjoyment!
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Feb 4, 2024 04:44
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Agreed all around, finishing the LP was a hell of a marathon, and thank you for doing so!
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Feb 4, 2024 04:46
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 Congratulations.
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Feb 4, 2024 04:49
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Thanks for the LP!
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Feb 4, 2024 04:59
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What A Long, Strange Trip It's Been...
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Feb 4, 2024 05:01
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Thanks for the LP, the writing, and the musings on narrative. It's been a fun ride, and you ought to be proud of all this.
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Feb 4, 2024 05:21
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What a lovely LP. Thank you!
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Feb 4, 2024 05:31
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drat, that ended a lot harsher than I remembered. The literal last words in WC3 are Thrall 1) threatening to invade Jaina again and in the same sentence 2) declaring the Horde has no reason to ever visit if it's not an invasion. Congrats on finishing this massive project.
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Feb 4, 2024 06:02
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Incredible job Cyth, well done. Take your well deserved rest, and come back with something that brings you more joy.
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Feb 4, 2024 06:10
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Congrats on finishing up the grand Warcraft RTS project. An amusing note on the mission, Cairne and the Tauren start as they mean to go on, largely irrelevant to the events on hand. He's supposed to be the friendly local of the Horde, and he gets like 1 line in that last mission. I'm still fond of the Horde campaign, and that's entirely off the back of its gameplay design. The way they broke their system to work it like an RPG served as an example, and during Warcraft 3's heyday, you can definitely see the influence of it in quite a few of the custom maps that arose. It definitely inspired some people. We have the famous example of DoTA arising from the custom maps, but I also wonder how many people's careers got inspired from their earlier years doing such elaborate custom mapping. Warcraft 3 deserves its popularity in its time. There are definite teething issues, but between the variety of gameplay it can inspire and some story beats that hit way harder than you'd expect, there's definite quality that shone through at the time. But I do admit that some aspects of it aged like milk, even independent of the later mess the conga line of writers would create. Thank you for running this LP. The writing was interesting and hit great story beats. And the showcase of Warcraft 3 specifically was nice for me to be able to remember what was surprisingly good, and what was surprisingly bad without having to actually give Blizzard money for a hack-job of a rerelease.
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Feb 4, 2024 06:43
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