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Freakazoid_ posted:We will never have adequate gun control until we can change or eliminate the second amendment. That's never going to happen unless there's a constitutional conventions. And probably not then. The 2nd amendment doesn't prohibit gun regulation at all, and the idea that it does is a recent invention. You're far more likely to swing the court into more sensible interpretations than the eliminate the 2A. Even if both options don't' seem especially likely anytime soon.
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Jun 2, 2022 08:44
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3% of Americans own half the guns, averaging 17 a person. I don't think that directly causes mass shootings, but it's pretty clearly a symptom of a ridiculous culture.
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Jun 2, 2022 18:20
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Koos Group posted:Well, that's probably also true for other collectible items. Most collectible items aren't closely tied with fantasies of violence. Except possibly My Little Ponies.
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Jun 2, 2022 18:47
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Heck Yes! Loam! posted:isn't pokemon just collectible cock fighting? Pokemon actually want to be caged and fight each other they love it. That is canon. We're just helping them live their best lives.
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Jun 2, 2022 18:55
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Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:collecting would be if someone were trying to build a set of something, like every american military service rifle or a sampling of prohibition era gangster guns. the common thread here is that the set of items holds some value beyond each item in isolation, and that pursuit of a set is the goal of owning the items I think that it's not a useful distinction because often people who describe themselves as "collectors" are pretty close to hoarders.
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Jun 2, 2022 19:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Edit: And why does this issue of national government seem so much less of a hurdle to Republican lawmakers who have generally been very effective at advancing their policy? They haven't though. Unless you count obstruction as their policy, in which yes that's been pretty effective. Most they did policy wise under Trump when they had control of all 3 branches was pass a tax law their base hated. Republicans do nothing and fan culture war flames. Democrats would have to actually do something, which is much harder at the national level. They don't want to, but if they did it would be harder than what the republicans do.
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Jun 4, 2022 19:13
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Kalit posted:But as a warning, if you want to continue down the anecdotal non federal level legislation, I can easily provide a counter example to every example you bring up But you didn't do this when someone posted an example....
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Jun 5, 2022 23:31
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The "disarming the populace so they can't fight the government oppression" conversation is a pointless derail because of many reasons 1) Plenty of countries have strict gun control but aren't specifically any more oppressive than current US 2) Nobody is talking about disarming the population, just some gun regulation 3) The fascists in the US are the ones most virulently against even the most minor gun control.
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Jun 6, 2022 01:57
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Bishyaler posted:I like how you're discussing how nobody can slip by the governments' defenses as we're hearing reports on 1/6 how the national guard was ordered to stand down and the Capitol police were actually helping the rioters. Do you consider this support for "we're going to win against the government with small arms" or "you win against the government when they allow you to"?
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Jun 6, 2022 17:23
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Bishyaler posted:I sure wish liberals would stop trying to empower the government right before it tips into the GOP's hands forever. The federal government isn't going to pass gun control before November and the people most rabidly against gun control are the GOP who will be in power starting then.
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Jun 6, 2022 18:05
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Groovelord Neato posted:The dumbest part of the "disarming the population is the first step towards oppression" is gun owners in this country are overwhelmingly supporters of authoritarianism. Taking guns away from fascists is bad actually, I guess?
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Jun 6, 2022 18:14
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Harold Fjord posted:Passing more antigun laws won't actually get the fascist police to take the guns away from their fascist friends but it will give them cover of law to take them away from people they would like to abuse who aren't already involved in drugs Not passing more antigun laws isn't going to prevent the fascist cops and their fascist friends from killing whomever they want to. However, nobody is going to be passing gun laws at the federal levels because the fascists are rabidly antigun so this is a thought experiment at best.
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Jun 6, 2022 18:25
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Something like 1 in 10 mass shooters have a history of mental illness. Sure we should get people help with mental health, but also it's mainly a distraction from gun laws, which would do much more.
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Jun 14, 2022 01:43
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Warbadger posted:Mental health resources aren't just for helping people with diagnosed mental illness. True. Point is, other countries have mental health coverage issues but they don't have mass shootings. The focus on mental health stigmatizes mental illness and distracts from the actual issue, which is US gun policy and culture is ridiculous and unlikely to change.
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Jun 14, 2022 07:48
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PeterCat posted:They are also disproportionately the perpetrators of gun homicides. That link doesn't support the claim you made unless there's a study it's linking to that you forgot to point at instead.
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Jun 15, 2022 18:39
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PeterCat posted:I've been assured that a legally armed citizen can't stop a shooting, but there it is. You have? By who? Xombie posted:I've been assured that having a gun makes you and your family safer, but there it is. If only we could know what is more common, "good guy with gun stops shotting" or "person accidentally shoots family member". Then we could make informed decisions that aren't based on hyperbole and strawmen.
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Jun 28, 2022 17:23
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Statistically speaking, yes gun owners are favoring a power fantasy over their family's actual safety. That's just a fact. From a persuasion standpoint, that's not a convincing argument to make to those people, because of the whole delusional power fantasy thing. Both these things are true.
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Jul 20, 2022 18:29
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I am confident that the person telling the story thinks the gun was the defining thing that saved them. I am not confident that they are correct. Again, both of these things can be true.
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Jul 20, 2022 19:46
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Mulva posted:Also I've been letting that side, but the overwhelming majority of all gun owners don't carry a gun for self-defense. If we're talking anecdotes, lol that's not true at all. But also statistically.... 
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Jul 20, 2022 20:26
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Scuffy_1989 posted:Why? Japan has a higher suicide rate than the United States and it's nearly impossible to get a gun there. Because guns increase suicides. Overall rate is societal, often, but statistically guns increase it relative to less guns. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 20:59
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Mulva posted:What compelling statistics. How many people did they ask, what did they mean by protection, and also it's kind of loving illegal in a lot of the country to walk around with a gun if you don't have a license so we can easily track how many owners versus folk walking around with guns exist in those places. Admittedly there's gently caress all we can do in no license states, but even walking around Texas I didn't notice 1 in 4 adults walking strapped on average. That doesn't contradict the Pew survey. quote:So I repeat: THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF GUN OWNERS AREN'T CARRYING A GUN AROUND LOOKING TO SHOOT SOMEONE. A bunch might be afraid of someone coming into their home and taking their poo poo though. Cool ALL CAPS response to a strawman, rock on. However what you originaly said was "the overwhelming majority of all gun owners don't carry a gun for self-defense" so you're not repeating yourself, you're doing a motte/baily thing. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 21:03
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Mulva posted:No poo poo, it's telling you what it actually says. See the way this went is I said "Most gun owners aren't carrying a gun for self-defense" to which you went "LOL look at this", so I said "No, that's not what those numbers mean, it means they own a gun for protection, not they CARRY a gun for protection". Not even 1 in 10 gun owners is regularly carrying a gun for self-defense. It's an incredible minority use of guns. I'm not wrong on why people own guns. You're simply attempting to parse "literally carrying in their pocket at any given time" in order to be technically accurate about something I guess? What point are you attempting to argue?
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Jul 20, 2022 21:32
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Mulva posted:.....you know the CDC also has age, race, and gender adjusted numbers right? You know gun access increases suicides, right? That's kind of the discussion.
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Jul 20, 2022 21:54
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Mulva posted:It can increase the chance of a suicide attempt to be successful, to be pedantic. Yeah no poo poo, who said otherwise? Is this just random gun facts time? I mean the point is that guns make things less safe. You lost?
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Jul 20, 2022 22:21
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Mulva posted:Yes, that's largely the point for a lot of their uses. The device that channels an explosion to propel metal at high velocity does, in fact, make people less safe. Also for a lot of people that is the point, because they want to kill other people. Some of them for nefarious reasons. People own them to make themselves more safe. But they don't actually do that. They make things less safe. Edit: For the people buying the guns and the people around them. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jul 20, 2022 |
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Jul 20, 2022 23:29
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Mulva posted:Well no, in reality most people that own a gun aren't going to do anything notable with it. They aren't going to kill themselves, or others. They aren't going to draw it in anger or fear. It'll just be a thing they have. That's the reality of gun ownership. The reality of gun ownership is you make yourself less safe by owning one, while claiming it's going to make you more safe.
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Jul 20, 2022 23:45
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Mulva posted:If nothing happens to you because of it, how are you less safe? Statistically speaking. I'm aware every gun owner thinks they're the special exception.
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Jul 21, 2022 00:06
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Mulva posted:Go live in math, I'm sure they have sane gun laws there. I live in reality. But if you want to live in gun fantasy land, sure thing John Wick. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 21, 2022 00:25
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Mulva posted:Again, don't own guns. Never would. Would make me and those around me wildly unsafe. LOL my mistake for thinking you were actually engaging in a discussion, won't make that error again. Enjoy!
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Jul 21, 2022 00:37
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Harold Fjord posted:I've been considering that question about how we address and change gun culture, that we can eventually enact useful gun control.We have statistics, but people know that statistics can be used to lie and regularly are. The meaning of statistics is regularly misunderstood and at times deliberately used to deceive. This is a big part of why simply waving statistics is not effective. I still that reaching people (even in terms of collective approaches, this isn't about one rear end in a top hat changing the world through fancy talk) requires understanding where they are, even if you think that they are wrong. Statistics are how you understand a problem, and then you use that understanding to craft effective arguments and policy. Nobody should be using statistics alone as a persuasion technique, but they're valid in this forum as part of a discussion. quote:For example, the framing of "attachment to heroic fantasies" is quite simply incorrect. People buying guns for protection probably aren't all imagining themselves as heroes. Sure it probably looks that way that way when you are standing on the other side (insert cartoon about Plato's the cave) but it's not an attachment to the idea of being a hero driving gun culture. It's fear. It's both. People have fear, and they imagine themselves using "gun" to overcome that fear and be heroic. If you've ever been around people who are talking about owning guns, you'll have encountered the extremely common thing where they have a detailed explanation of how they're going to shoot an intruder. There's a whole industry around furniture to quickly access firearms so that they can light up the homestead. Moving away from anecdotes, we know how common the "good guy with gun" and "shoot up the intruder" narratives are, both of which place the gun owner in the place to have solved a problem and defended others with "gun". It's a heroic fantasy based in fear. quote:Where is that fear coming from? Capitalist infotainment media driving up coverage of scary events for clicks and views even as the world is getting safer is a good place to start. The fact that the world itself is genuinely being destroyed by humans and we are doing nothing to address it is another. While violent crime is down overall relative to the past, there are risks of increases as material conditions degrade. It's also a whole lot of racism
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Jul 22, 2022 17:33
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Harold Fjord posted:I think it works better when you can get people to buy in. Especially the voters with all the guns. I don't know if you're going to convince the gun zealots that own an average of 18 guns and built their entire identity around guns that they've wasted their lives. That's only about 3% of people though, but they have all the guns.
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Jul 22, 2022 20:46
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Professor Beetus posted:Perhaps more insidious is America's problem with copaganda, and the prevalence of uncritical police procedurals that heavily focus on random, heinous crimes and portray police officers as noble fighters for justice constantly constrained buy red tape and anti-police liberal politicians (god if only). Movies and TV both often push a narrative that runs contrary to reality and the perception of media as "left wing" or "liberal." This is a huge part of it. Cops are set up uncritically as heros, that do a public service, protect, sacrifice, solve and prevent crimes. It bears exactly no relation to reality. In addition, it sets up criminals as almost always guilty, 2D villains who hurt people because they're evil. Society, economics, class, racism, prejudice, the school to jail pipeline....that is seldom if ever covered. Even on this forum, people describe what cops do in fantasy terms that aren't remotely connected to reality. And these are some of the most popular shows on television. They're massively pervasive in the public consciousness.
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Jul 22, 2022 21:36
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Liquid Communism posted:Sometimes that fear is justified, too. Because major political parties are platforming violence against you as moral due to your 'deviant' beliefs on gender and orientation, and painting you as part of the one group universally socially approved to commit violence against: pedophiles. Sure, it is justified, but left wing gun owners are essentially a non-entity in terms of policymaking in the US. And when we speak of hero fantasies we're not talking about people looking to defend their lives from a very real threat, we're talking about mostly white straight cis privileged people who are imagining how they will use their privilege to justify killing the people you're talking about.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:20
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Liquid Communism posted:You're not wrong, but said left wing gun owners are the first ones any gun control with teeth will be weaponized against. True, but also the current lack of gun laws doesn't apply to them either. Permissive gun laws in the US mainly apply to white straight cis folks. A country that allows police to kill people for "we thought he had a gun" doesn't actually have a right to bear arms. It's just a fiction that never included oppressed people in the first place. When the truck of Klan boys comes for you, the gun in your hand might end up being their justification that it was self defense to kill you. Not that I fault you for having it.
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Jul 23, 2022 00:38
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A valuable lesson about people's words vs what they do when the words become real.
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Jul 30, 2022 20:58
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