|
Rent-A-Cop posted:Publicly arm a bunch of Black people. Yep. It is easier to understand the landscape of gun control in the US when you realize that almost all gun control in the US historically has been about keeping minorities from being armed. Same reason the NFA of 1934 had a carve out to let the wealthy keep their toys by paying for a tax stamp, and same reason Cali's gun control laws intensified when Reagan realized the Black Panthers were arming themselves. The 'may-issue' laws endemic in the South and Midwest are directly out of Jim Crow laws, to let the usually white elected or appointed sheriffs exercise discretion on who was allowed to carry or own a weapon. Cpt_Obvious posted:It feels like people are trapped into thinking that only the electoral system can achieve change. What about ways to enact gun control that don't rely purely on electoralism? What about parallel sources of power like unions and direct action? Can those be used to pressure politicians or install their own? Advocating for civil violence, which is exactly what you're talking about here as direct action, is just going to harden the opposition even further. And the hardcore part of the anti-gun control crowd are the same sort who made a little field trip to DC last January and have received no real consequences. Do not even put starting a gunfight with the people who've been spoiling for a racial holy war on the table, they'll jump on the opportunity and it will end in a lot of blood. Especially given the cops are their buddies. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jun 4, 2022 |
#
¿
Jun 4, 2022 19:32
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 23:22 |
|
|
Kalit posted:Is it, though? I hear this all the time, but I feel like the only example people bring up is the Mulford Act. A while back I actually went through federal gun legislation passed throughout the years to see if it was nearly all. I wish I could remember exact numbers, but I felt like it definitely wasn't nearly all due to a minority with a gun. Anecdote isn't data, but it's exactly why my state went to shall-issue for carry permits. Had a huge problem with elected sheriffs using paper bag tests and/or only issuing permits to people who donated to their reelection campaigns.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 5, 2022 01:43
|
|
|
ToxicSlurpee posted:Even if the police did have a legal duty to protect people they aren't everywhere. They can't be everywhere and I don't think anybody would want to live in a society where they are as that's a sure sign of an oppressive government. Chances are if you get attacked the police aren't there. But who is there? You are. Historically speaking, the way to beat the US Army is to be difficult to occupy for long enough that popular opinion at home turns against the conflict. Being armed makes that easier. Especially when one remembers the entire US armed forces are less than 1% of the population.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2022 03:57
|
|
|
Law doesn't exist in an academically approved vacuum. As amply demonstrated by the existence of judicially invented concepts like qualified immunity. Who interprets the law, and who enforces it are as important as the actual text. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jun 6, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2022 06:58
|
|
|
Xombie posted:The US government absolutely is an unstoppable juggernaut within the US. If you're doing it within the US, you aren't a scrappy insurgency, you're just a person breaking the law, and get to be treated like someone breaking the law. Please look up the record for groups getting into standoffs with the US government in the past 30 years. You might want to update your understanding there. Between Cliven Bundy and company's little standoff out west and the Jan 6 insurrection, the will of the US government to crack down seems to have softened immensely. I wonder what these two groups have in common that would make that the case.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2022 16:05
|
|
|
Xombie posted:Last I checked, both of these groups literally lost, being arrested by the FBI and driven off by the National Guard (and then also arrested by the FBI), respectively. Neither actually achieved the goal of their confrontation with the US government. Bundy, his kids, and their closest associates had their charges thrown out with prejudice and are back at their long-time activities of running the BLM and other users off public lands they feel should be theirs for grazing with threats of violence. Of the rest of the 26, nine did time, only two over 366 days. Of the Capitol insurrectionists, there have been very few serious prosecutions. The vast majority of the pleas so far entered have pled to a misdemeanor 'parading within the Capitol' charge and left it at that. As of the easiest trustworthy source I can find offhand is from this January, when only 31 had been sentenced to jail time with a median stay of 45 days. The ideology they championed is still going strong and pushing midterm campaigns this year. They have accomplished plenty, and exactly what the organizers expected them to.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2022 16:45
|
|
|
Dietrich posted:I sure wish the gun nuts would make up their mind on if a AR-15 and other military style semi-auto rifles are a lethal necessity that will let them stand up to the full weight of the entire army, or absolutely no different than a hand-gun and we're only banning it 'cause it looks scary. The problem is you're creating a false dichotomy. They're both. Hell, you can buy AR-15s that are legally by all definitions a hangun. A handgun is not some safer class of firearm, in point of fact the vast majority of homicides by firearm are committed with handguns. Gun control rarely swings at them because there's little popular support, and especially after DC v Heller, significant legal precedent against banning handguns. Edit: the only major attempt at any kind of large-scale handgun ban in the US I'm aware of were cities like Chicago and DC, who had theirs overturned by the SCOTUS. California has a more complex system of rosters for allowable hanguns, but it grandfathered existing ownership and has exceptions for police, so primarily serves as a method to enrich police officers who can obtain desirable handguns much less expensively due to not having to pay the markup to buy pre-ban weapons and can then resell them to others. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 7, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Jun 7, 2022 07:24
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:The frustrating thing about all this is no gun ownership arguments apart from hunting stand up to scrutiny yet nothing will ever be done on a national level. You should tell that to SCOTUS. They seem to have stated repeatedly that self defense stands up to their level of scrutiny. Not that they're universally correct, but trying to pretend the argument you personally believe 'reasonable' is the only one isn't going to get far in discussion.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 7, 2022 13:29
|
|
|
Xombie posted:This "political reality" isn't any different for any topic where you're proposing a solution from the left. I fail to see why it's a trump card for gun control when it isn't for any other topic of conversation. Like Mulva, if you don't actually like the topic of gun control, no one is forcing you to be part of it. But if all you have to add to the discussion is the thought-terminating cliché of "America is pretty conservative", what exactly do you want people to discuss with you? It isn't actually up to anyone here to "sell" the idea of gun control, because none of us are actually politicians. Not like leftists want to hear about it either. We're mostly pretty aware that the right hates us and the centrists are more worried about decorum than who the right is killing as long as it's not their donors, while there is a distinct difference of outcome when it comes to how the police treat their ideological allies.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 7, 2022 19:04
|
|
|
Xombie posted:A private transfer of title ownership has to be done at a DMV, actually. Nope. So long as you never drive it on a public road, it can go untitled forever. Thousands of farm vehicles out in the Midwest and great plains like that, haven't had a title or licence plate in decades but nobody says poo poo when the 14 year old takes the work truck over to feed the horses at 6am .
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2022 00:41
|
|
|
This push for gun control is going to be exactly what gets the gun industry out of the slump, you realize. The last couple made them billions. Every time someone in Washington talks about another AWB the marketing guys at Colt and Bushmaster do a bump. The AWB was an enormous windfall as it was massive free advertising for producers of banned weapons, who immediately started marketing 'compliant' versions with a couple of cosmetic features removed and appealing to American self-image as rebels against government oppression. Since then every election year is a sellers' frenzy as the militia-types get themselves whipped up over inevitable incoming gun control creating a potential windfall for them like people who owned pre-86 machine guns after the registry closed, so they buy AR's out of stock and pile them up to resell later.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2022 03:14
|
|
|
Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:weird gun hoarders are going to hoard guns regardless, what they waste their disposable income on is of little consequence when it comes to public health Discendo Vox wasn't talking about public health, but rather about the NRA and gun industry having the money to lobby. Selling weapons faster than they can actually produce them tends to generate proceeds.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2022 03:25
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Nah, this is "this is good for Bitcoin!" magical thinking. If gun control is so great for gun manufacturers, why do they fight it tooth and nail? Effective gun control would be bad for them. Nobody in power has yet so much as presented a bill for effective gun control, much less put it to a vote. All we've really seen so far is the libs trotting out the same AWB rehashes that are their version of the right's 'thoughts and prayers' mantra.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 8, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
Yep, lot of good stuff there, but absolutely none of it is likely to have major effects on shootings. Maybe the delay on purchases in the 18-24 crowd, but not much of a barrier to someone pulling a Rittenhouse and handing a weapon over since it only affects purchase from FFLs, not posession.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 12, 2022 23:17
|
|
|
I'm going to want to read the actual wording on the red flag stuff before I call it positive. I'm a big fan of prohibited purchasers actually being prohibited, but don't want to get another 'what's due process precious' situation like the no-fly list. If it's based on actual convictions in a court of law i see few having issue with it, as long as it applies to cops equally.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2022 02:08
|
|
|
Yep. If a DV conviction is disqualifying to purchase arms, it should also be disqualifying for a professional permit to carry and thus working as a police officer.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 13, 2022 02:55
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Consider also that gun suicide generally outnumbers gun homicide 2:1, and that people with MH issues are disproportionately more likely to be the victims of assault with a gun than the perpetrators. All of the discourse about whether mass shooters are mentally ill (they generally are not) obscures everyday suicide and homicide, which are much larger concerns even if they are less flashy ones. Seems like a good argument for a functioning mental health system.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 14, 2022 04:51
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:Bearing in mind that I think Heller's wrongly decided: Also on a practical level, it'll run into two issues. Firstly, it's yet another level of making what is still considered a constitutional right accessible only to the rich. But secondly, and more importantly, safe storage laws are only as worthwhile as their enforcement. Any level of enforcement that isn't just a tack-on charge after the fact requires creating a situation where owning a firearm strips the 4th Amendment's protections, as enforcement of safe storage laws requires enforcement officials (likely the police) to be granted access to your home at any time to verify weapons are being stored safely, while also creating an explicit registry of firearms. We're all well aware how eager the police are to use any excuse to go on a fishing expedition, like the good old 'I smelled weed' at a traffic stop, and a cop who wants to find an excuse to charge someone with something will.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 15, 2022 04:16
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:stating a fact is not endorsement of that fact. I don't think anyone has yet argued that the status quo isn't racist. Gun laws in America are, have been, and likely always will be racist, classist, and sexist on many levels as they seek to reinforce social strata and establish who can be trusted to be armed.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 15, 2022 14:45
|
|
|
Ah yes, because we cannot trust agents of the state not to brutalize the public, we must immediately... make that easier for them to do? That seems like a strange logic.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 30, 2022 02:07
|
|
|
Kalit posted:How does the public not having firearms make it easier for agents of the states to abuse them? It absolutely does include them. Police are given power over other members of the public by the state, and act as its agents. It says a lot about the state that we accept police behaving as we do without meaningful consequence.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 30, 2022 06:28
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:Maybe I'm going out on a limb here but I bet Finland's laws are far more restrictive in other ways. Funnily enough, the common thread in the countries brought up on this context is almost always socialized health care and existing safety nets'. The US is in a lot of ways more like the less affluent countries in the western hemisphere than the EU countries. Massive inequality and generational poverty on a level unthinkable there is just normal here.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 30, 2022 15:56
|
|
|
Hey, I don't disagree entirely, but given confiscatory gun control is as likely as the end of capitalism or anything materially being done about our right wing domestic terrorism problem... Stuff that either enforces the laws on the books or materially improves people's conditions such that violence is less likely is just another angle to work the problem of shootings from.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 30, 2022 17:20
|
|
|
Harold Fjord posted:Bullying is the norm among conservatives, who believe everyone else exists to the detriment of themselves. So while they themselves are likely bullies, they are often learning it at home. Hurt people hurt people and all that jazz Funny how when you teach boys the only acceptable emotional outlet is anger and violence, that's how they act out when dealing with emotional problems endemic to being a teenager.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 2, 2022 16:02
|
|
|
Mr. Fall Down Terror posted:i dunno, the narrative about the rare good guy with a gun stopping a mass shooting is getting way less traction than the outrage over the uvalde cops, a hundred trained armed professionals who took well over an hour to stop a single shooter Closer to 400 actually. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/07/17/law-enforcement-failure-uvalde-shooting-investigation/ quote:The report also reveals for the first time that the overwhelming majority of responders were federal and state law enforcement: 149 were U.S. Border Patrol, and 91 were state police — whose responsibilities include responding to “mass attacks in public places.” There were 25 Uvalde police officers and 16 sheriff’s deputies. Arredondo’s school police force accounted for five of the officers on the scene. The rest of the force was made up of neighboring county law enforcement, U.S. marshals and federal Drug Enforcement Administration officers. Remember too they stopped the one cop willing to go in because his wife was a teacher dying on the floor.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 22, 2022 07:54
|
|
|
Sometimes that fear is justified, too. Because major political parties are platforming violence against you as moral due to your 'deviant' beliefs on gender and orientation, and painting you as part of the one group universally socially approved to commit violence against: pedophiles. Or because the cops on every level up to the federal are heavily infiltrated by white supremacists and acting as their allies openly. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Jul 23, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2022 00:11
|
|
|
You're not wrong, but said left wing gun owners are the first ones any gun control with teeth will be weaponized against.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2022 00:27
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 23:22 |
|
|
Being armed in these cases is, as is well recognized by most of us, not necessarily going to save your life. Rather grimly the hope is it'll at least make taking your life expensive enough that the fuckers are more hesitant to go after others. That is of course no deterrent to state actors beyond hopefully making enough noise that outside third parties step in to prevent a genocide. Unlikely if it's the US doing it, as we're all aware.  No good answers unless the levers of governmental power can be wrested away from the racist death cultists. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Jul 23, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Jul 23, 2022 01:30
|
|