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I remember watching Commando, and Die Hard, and a bunch of stupid American movies as a kid. I thought they were hilarious, and I remember being impressed by the effects or the action.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:50
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BTW I have never argued that the movie isn't propaganda, because it absolutely is. https://www.spyculture.com/weave-in-key-talking-points-pentagon-contract-for-top-gun-maverick/ It's just not particularly good propaganda for anything other than "these planes are awesome" and "fighter pilots are cool" and that's pretty much universally already agreed on, so it's doing gangbusters internationally. This movie is so devoted to the "these planes are awesome" ethos that it has one of the enemy fighter planes do a cool maneuver that the protagonists remark on as being awesome...even though it's an established maneuver that any decent aviator would already know about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFt2HAp7fHo
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Aug 23, 2022 20:52
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:BTW I have never argued that the movie isn't propaganda, because it absolutely is. I mean, the basic point I'm trying to make is that 'these planes are awesome,' as expressed in this movie, comes packaged up with a lot of other ideas and tropes
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Aug 23, 2022 20:55
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Shageletic posted:I remember watching Commando, and Die Hard, and a bunch of stupid American movies as a kid. I thought they were hilarious, and I remember being impressed by the effects or the action. Die Hard is capitalist propaganda designed to make you think stealing from multinational corporations is bad.
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Aug 23, 2022 20:58
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live with fruit posted:Die Hard is capitalist propaganda designed to make you think stealing from multinational corporations is bad. The cop is the hero!
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Aug 23, 2022 21:01
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Shageletic posted:The cop is the hero! That too.
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Aug 23, 2022 21:01
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Fuligin posted:I mean, the basic point I'm trying to make is that 'these planes are awesome,' as expressed in this movie, comes packaged up with a lot of other ideas and tropes Those ideas and tropes are pretty bargain basement, lol. The film arguably focuses more on human relation/emotion than it does on militaristic comraderie. Any jingoistic nonsense you want to prop up is just a consequence of the presented narrative. The throughline of this film could be dropped into a sports movie and it'd have the same effect, that's how basic af it is, to where it renders the narrative context almost irrelevant. teagone fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Aug 23, 2022 |
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Aug 23, 2022 21:14
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Fuligin posted:I mean, the basic point I'm trying to make is that 'these planes are awesome,' as expressed in this movie, comes packaged up with a lot of other ideas and tropes I mean, that's true, but the problem is you think you've cracked the code and know what those ideas and tropes are for every other person on Earth regardless of their life experiences. For example, when I think about the planes in Top Gun: Maverick, I think that they are extremely awesome but that they aren't worth the price, and in fact America's entire power projection policy is garbage both morally and strategically. A boomer I spoke to about the movie saw it through the lens of "an older guy still has something to offer to younger people" and "America can still make things that work". This is the issue. There's no universal set of lenses that people are viewing this movie through. This is why Goodfellas is, to me, a movie about a little man who tries to become somebody, fails, and ends up in decades of awful situations that destroy his life, while to other people it's about the cool gangsters.
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Aug 23, 2022 21:19
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Plus the first half hour or so is a big metaphor for Tom Cruise saving the film industry. The focus is on the people behind the scenes, which is admittedly just the insidious "support the troops" spin the military has been using to build support for the past twenty years, than the mission or how great the US is, just like how the plot of any Mission: Impossible movie is an afterthought.
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Aug 23, 2022 21:20
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:I mean, that's true, but the problem is you think you've cracked the code and know what those ideas and tropes are for every other person on Earth regardless of their life experiences. For example, when I think about the planes in Top Gun: Maverick, I think that they are extremely awesome but that they aren't worth the price, and in fact America's entire power projection policy is garbage both morally and strategically. A boomer I spoke to about the movie saw it through the lens of "an older guy still has something to offer to younger people" and "America can still make things that are rad". This is the issue. There's no universal set of lenses that people are viewing this movie through. This is why Goodfellas is, to me, a movie about a little man who tries to become somebody, fails, and ends up in decades of awful situations that destroy his life, while to other people it's about the cool gangsters. I don't think this at all. Of course every person's viewing of anything is subjective- this doesn't mean we have to throw up our hands and say that everything can mean anything to anyone, both because that's obviously absurd and because it cuts against how people in practice discuss and transmit culture amongst each other. Presumably you wouldn't simultaneously be thinking both 'these planes are awesome' and that American foreign policy is garbage (both sentiments I can agree with) unless the latter as a subject is directly implied by the film. Which, given its central setpiece and driver of plot is a preemptive strike against nuclear facilities within It's a well made movie and I'll probably watch it again
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Aug 23, 2022 21:37
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this thread makes me want to give Top to a Gun.
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Aug 23, 2022 21:58
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I like the part where the planes went shhhhhoooooooo pew pew pew pew pew and when rooster used the force to blow up the canadian death star and that when the long hug at the end of the mission ended they managed to cram in another one. They didn't develop the rooster and hangman relationship enough though. Probably because they were trying to sort the maverick/rooster father/son issues out so they didn't have time to add in a bunch of gazing into another man's eyes for just a second too long
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Aug 23, 2022 22:47
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i would like to see ha_g_an guy as a smarmy dipshit in more things
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Aug 23, 2022 23:13
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I was like oh cool, I enjoyed this movie, the thread seems short, probably a lot talk about the practical effects, I should read the whole thing. Holy poo poo lmao.
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Aug 23, 2022 23:54
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https://youtu.be/vZ_vbPVzD34
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Aug 24, 2022 01:41
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ilmucche posted:I like the part where the planes went shhhhhoooooooo pew pew pew pew pew and when rooster used the force to blow up the canadian death star and that when the long hug at the end of the mission ended they managed to cram in another one. Okay glad im not the only one to realize this movie is just Star Wars in a modern day setting on earth.
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Aug 24, 2022 02:49
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The key thing is nobody’s actually disputing that the film is pro-military and propagandistic in that way. The thread doesn’t dwell on it for the most part because that’s not, like, something anyone is seriously attempting to argue against. Every so often someone comes in and makes the astonishing revelation that this film is Navy propaganda and the reaction is “yes, and?” Like what do you want the response to be? What do you want from us, fellow poster?
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Aug 24, 2022 03:24
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My favorite part of Top Gun is when Goose tells Maverick he has a family; he can't blow this The camera is focused on Tom Cruise
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Aug 24, 2022 03:38
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RBA Starblade posted:My favorite part of Top Gun is when Goose tells Maverick he has a family; he can't blow this lol my favorite part of top gun is officers with sopping wet foreheads i think
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Aug 24, 2022 03:47
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Fuligin posted:lol It's a very sweaty film
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Aug 24, 2022 03:54
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The best part is when, twice, someone tells Maverick "I don't like that face" and Maverick responds "It's the only one I got." Tom Cruise having a little fun with his image.
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Aug 24, 2022 04:00
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GundamHealer posted:I was like oh cool, I enjoyed this movie, the thread seems short, probably a lot talk about the practical effects, I should read the whole thing. Yep, same. “14 pages of discussion? I bet there’s something cool to jump into after really digging how this movie was shot…” 
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Aug 24, 2022 04:22
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An issue I had is how the entire plot felt like it was taking place in a vacuum. It felt weird that the “enemy” is a no name country, that theres no media coverage, or politics. The outside world just doesnt exist, even though the u.s. is very clearly at war with the country that is being targeted, and this operation is huge and would be getting a lot of attention. Zero ethical questions of such an operation are raised. Just faceless people are killed for unknown reasons.
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Aug 24, 2022 04:46
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I said come in! posted:An issue I had is how the entire plot felt like it was taking place in a vacuum. It felt weird that the “enemy” is a no name country, that theres no media coverage, or politics. The outside world just doesnt exist, even though the u.s. is very clearly at war with the country that is being targeted, and this operation is huge and would be getting a lot of attention. Zero ethical questions of such an operation are raised. Just faceless people are killed for unknown reasons. "faceless people killed for unknown reasons" is kind of our whole thing in a whole lot of places
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Aug 24, 2022 04:48
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TheScott2K posted:"faceless people killed for unknown reasons" is kind of our whole thing in a whole lot of places Yeah true. I wish the movie wasnt so tone deaf about this.
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Aug 24, 2022 04:56
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I said come in! posted:An issue I had is how the entire plot felt like it was taking place in a vacuum. It felt weird that the “enemy” is a no name country, that theres no media coverage, or politics. The outside world just doesnt exist, even though the u.s. is very clearly at war with the country that is being targeted, and this operation is huge and would be getting a lot of attention. Zero ethical questions of such an operation are raised. Just faceless people are killed for unknown reasons. Lol if you think an operation like the one in Top Gun 2 Electric Boogaloo wouldn't be classified as gently caress or whatever. I'm sure there's other heinous clandestine poo poo spearheaded by the US military that goes on everyday that the general population is completely unaware of. Also no, there was no war going on in the film. The mission paramters explicitly stated the unsanctioned uranium stores would represent a direct threat to US allies when completed, not that there's some sort of ongoing conflict between the US and the unnamed rogue state. teagone fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Aug 24, 2022 |
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Aug 24, 2022 05:01
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I said come in! posted:An issue I had is how the entire plot felt like it was taking place in a vacuum. It felt weird that the “enemy” is a no name country, that theres no media coverage, or politics. The outside world just doesnt exist, even though the u.s. is very clearly at war with the country that is being targeted, and this operation is huge and would be getting a lot of attention. Zero ethical questions of such an operation are raised. Just faceless people are killed for unknown reasons. Because that’s not the point.
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Aug 24, 2022 05:03
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If anything faceless people getting killed for unknown reasons would be just be an unfortunate byproduct
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Aug 24, 2022 05:06
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GundamHealer posted:Because that’s not the point. Then it shouldn't have been there. It's a really bad plot.
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Aug 24, 2022 05:20
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teagone posted:Lol if you think an operation like the one in Top Gun 2 Electric Boogaloo wouldn't be classified as gently caress or whatever. I'm sure there's other heinous clandestine poo poo spearheaded by the US military that goes on everyday that the general population is completely unaware of. Also no, there was no war going on in the film. The mission paramters explicitly stated the unsanctioned uranium stores would represent a direct threat to US allies when completed, not that there's some sort of ongoing conflict between the US and the unnamed rogue state. Why are they unsanctioned or a threat? They are asking their best pilots to go on a suicide mission and for what? Even ignoring the general public, what about the military all the way up to the pentagon and the president? Or even congress? These are things the movie needed to address, but don't, and since they don't, it just comes off as really terrible and problematic as gently caress.
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Aug 24, 2022 05:22
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I said come in! posted:Then it shouldn't have been there. It's a really bad plot. Holy poo poo lmao
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Aug 24, 2022 06:03
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What was the point then? What was the plot even? If it wasn't about the U.S. unjustly blowing up another countries resources, then it sure wasn't about the characters centered around Maverick, because all of that happened off screen. Outside of one heart string pull scene with Val Kilmer that is an obvious wink to his real life health issues, there was no character development.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:09
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I am sorry for making GBS threads up the thread, this will be my last post here. To clarify, I never called anyone an alt right fascist or whatever. Why would I? This is a liberal-rear end movie. It just so happens that that is not in opposition to it being fascist. Yeah, Maverick took in a shitton of money everywhere, because a) it is an extremely well made movie, had great marketing, Cruise is a star and all that and b) America is not exceptional in it's glorification of the troops and the slow and steady march to fascism, those are almost universal. I've read and listened to many articles and podcasts saying, that post 9/11 America went crazy, that even people who would describe themselves as anti-war, leftist and all that were supporting the war in Iraq because that was the thing to do at the time. They were not ( well some of them were ) apologia for it, more explanations. Well, you are still at war, just not in Iraq. You are still killing innocent people, just not in Iraq. So why is so easy to dismiss that, just because the movie is awesome? That's what's terrifying to me. That the real and brutal cost of what the USA is doing is less to some people, even people who declare that they are staunchly anti-war, than the fact that the planes went really fast and G meters went past 10. Would you still like it if it was a movie about Russian soldiers and the unnamed country was literally Ukraine? Because to the people of many countries all over the world, the american military machine is that or worse. I don't think liking this movie makes you a war criminal or whatever, I just think it means that you don't really care about the people in other countries who have been killed by people just like those depicted in this film. Again, there is a line in the film where Maverick says to Cyclone that these pilots have been called the best of the best their whole careers, which mostly consisted of dropping bombs from thousands of meters in the air. If you are a thoughtful individual, you know what that means, you would know it even if the line wasn't in the film, you don't need me to tell you that. So why does celebrating these people not make you want to vomit? Because the war criminal has the right colours on their sleeve and the planes really do go fast? One last paragraph on how insidious this film is and then I'm done.This is a very subtle movie. I don't think the word "America" gets uttered once. The focus on the interpersonal, the camaraderie, becoming a team and overcoming the odds together, instead of rah rah nationalism is a masterstroke. Nationalism is gauche these days. Not for conservatives, but for liberals? Just in bad taste. The oft mentioned unnamed country is also great, because it sidesteps the real world elegantly. No-one is going to write thinkpieces about how it's actually bad to bomb Iran even if they are enriching uranium because they are only doing it as a means of self defence against the Israeli nuclear threat, so we got that covered. The team is nice and diverse and one of the two women gets to fly the mission and nails it, the love interest is age appropriate, she even has a kid and Maverick doesn't mind which makes him a nice, safe, progressive man, not one of those MRAs and Penny is the one to make the first move. The Val Kilmer camoe is tasteful and touching. There is nothing objectionable here. Except what these people do as a day job but they are really cool so it doesn't matter. Anyway, I'm out.And again, sorry for making GBS threads up the thread with my weird thoughts. PS.I'm absolutely not suggesting I'm morally superior to anyone and that's not my purpose, I have plenty of blindspots.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:19
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I said come in! posted:Why are they unsanctioned or a threat? They are asking their best pilots to go on a suicide mission and for what? Even ignoring the general public, what about the military all the way up to the pentagon and the president? Or even congress? These are things the movie needed to address, but don't, and since they don't, it just comes off as really terrible and problematic as gently caress. The uranium storage facility was secretly built by a rogue state in violation of whatever laws or treaties or whatever the gently caress. Uranium stores presumbaly to be used for building nuclear weapons I guess. What else are they for? The mission is to destroy the facility before it is operational. This is explained in the movie, OP.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:30
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teagone posted:The uranium storage facility was secretly built by a rogue state in violation of whatever laws or treaties or whatever the gently caress. Uranium stores presumbaly to be used for building nuclear weapons I guess. What else are they for? The mission is to destroy the facility before it is operational. This is explained in the movie, OP. The planes looked cool.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:33
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I said come in! posted:What was the point then? What was the plot even? If it wasn't about the U.S. unjustly blowing up another countries resources, then it sure wasn't about the characters centered around Maverick, because all of that happened off screen. Outside of one heart string pull scene with Val Kilmer that is an obvious wink to his real life health issues, there was no character development. The point was to be entertained and not think about it too much goddamn
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Aug 24, 2022 06:33
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Majkol posted:I am sorry for making GBS threads up the thread, this will be my last post here. You're fine, you did nothing wrong. No one wants to think or engage with the movie, that's not on you. The planes looked cool, that is as far as most want to take this movie.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:34
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I said come in! posted:The planes looked cool. Problematically cool, you mean, right? Lol. Nerd.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:35
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Lots of people have posted about their thoughts on the movie and propaganda with some good discussion. “Metaphors” about rape squads or whatever poster was trying to say were not adding anything.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:41
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Majkol posted:I don't think liking this movie makes you a war criminal or whatever, I just think it means that you don't really care about the people in other countries who have been killed by people just like those depicted in this film. This is kind of an rear end in a top hat-ish assumption, imo. You don't know me or anyone else posting in this thread. Saying the quoted line above but then also saying... quote:I'm absolutely not suggesting I'm morally superior to anyone and that's not my purpose, I have plenty of blindspots. ...seems to be at odds. Assigning moral culpability through entertainment is some low-rent discourse.
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Aug 24, 2022 06:42
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