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we should do a big goondrive to get adnan and his girlfriends parents to sit down and just hash out this beef. its bad vibes
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Oct 12, 2022 04:10
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That DICK! posted:we should do a big goondrive to get adnan and his girlfriends parents to sit down and just hash out this beef. its bad vibes Adnan eat the Leeggs
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Oct 12, 2022 04:28
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I'd love the full story here, because the story they're telling makes no sense whatsoever.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:15
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I want a severe joyless left wing podcast that gets into the socioeconomic issues around the murder and conviction and the much later creation of an incredibly successful podcast and how that podcast's fame changed the whole narrative
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Oct 12, 2022 05:38
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Spooder-Mun posted:The way I'm parsing everything is, the conviction was based essentially on Jay's testimony with the prosecution going we know Jay sucks but the cell logs back him up. The motion to vacate is driven by the cops loving up big time by not properly clearing these two people of interest and not telling the defense some pretty spicy things about one of them, and also mentions that they don't really have confidence in the cell phone logs being usable for the purpose they had done so the first time. And with the DNA tests not bringing back anything that would support a case against Adnan, there's really not much left to make a case with. It’s also really drat difficult to try a case from 23 years ago.
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Oct 12, 2022 06:24
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Devil House, the latest novel by John Darnielle (of The Mountain Goats) is about a true crime writer and if you hate true crime I highly recommend it, and if you like true crime I even more highly recommend it in the hopes that this excellent book will help you to get a grip and stop being a loving creep.
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Oct 12, 2022 06:38
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I think the best case for Adnan is that he hired Jay to do the actual killing — I’ve never really heard a compelling reason for how Jay knew what he knew without Adnan being involved. Jay had no reason to just randomly kill this person he barely knew and Adnan loaning out his cellphone to the guy for a day is just weird . Oh well I expect he’ll be out there with OJ on a relentless hunt for the real killer now
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Oct 12, 2022 07:34
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Spooder-Mun posted:The way I'm parsing everything is, the conviction was based essentially on Jay's testimony with the prosecution going we know Jay sucks but the cell logs back him up. The motion to vacate is driven by the cops loving up big time by not properly clearing these two people of interest and not telling the defense some pretty spicy things about one of them, and also mentions that they don't really have confidence in the cell phone logs being usable for the purpose they had done so the first time. And with the DNA tests not bringing back anything that would support a case against Adnan, there's really not much left to make a case with. Yeah as I understood the cops and his lawyer hosed up in several ways, but he almost certainly did it. The "DNA evidence" doesn't even make any sense though, like why would his DNA have to be on the shoes? And if it was there, there's like a million reasons for it since he was the boyfriend. Definitely looking forward to reading his "If I Did It" book soon.
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Oct 12, 2022 08:26
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silence_kit posted:They held a press conference and announced that they found multiple people's DNA on Adnan's dead ex-girlfriend's shoes. Adnan's DNA was not found on the shoes. It doesn't really sound like it proves anything unless they have plausible theories for these potential alternate suspects & corroborating evidence. Classoc noir- the cumshoe solved the case!
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Oct 12, 2022 08:55
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Someone will convicted for murder because she stepped on their spit gum. Good. Let this be a lesson to filthy shits who spit gum in parking lots.
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Oct 12, 2022 11:31
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Spooder-Mun posted:The motion to vacate is driven by the cops loving up big time by not properly clearing these two people of interest and not telling the defense some pretty spicy things about one of them Interestingly, this narrative from the Baltimore City State's Attorney is disputed by the office of the Maryland Attorney General. Also interestingly, one of the two alternate suspects is likely the person who was Adnan Syed's youth group leader at his mosque (and who testified on the grand jury and who purchased Adnan's cell phone), which doesn't really exonerate Adnan at all. GlobalMegaCorp posted:I’ve never really heard a compelling reason for how Jay knew what he knew without Adnan being involved. Jay had no reason to just randomly kill this person he barely knew and Adnan loaning out his cellphone to the guy for a day is just weird. Yeah, maybe the most plausible alternate explanation is that Jay's testimony was totally made up 100% by the police and Jay had nothing to do with the crime. But this conspiracy theory doesn't really make sense given the timeline of events of the investigation. I agree with you--if you accept the core of Jay's testimony, really the most likely explanation is that Adnan did it. moths posted:I'd love the full story here, because the story they're telling makes no sense whatsoever. Yeah, it is pretty strange. I suspect that the Baltimore City State's Attorney a priori wanted to free Adnan, and just want to be able to point to something, no matter how flimsy, to justify the decision. I suspect that the decision to free Adnan wasn't really driven by a re-investigation of the case. There's not really any new evidence, and there are no new suspects. The two 'new' suspects were already well-known. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 11:43
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Because I apparently hate myself, I've been checking out the podcast subreddit just to get a bit more information about what's going on (or at least... try to). It's a loving fascinating example of what happens when you have a relatively insular society who can do nothing but re-litigate the exact same evidence over and over again for over seven years. There's a particular poster who thinks he's Figured It All Out - and is exactly as smug as you'd expect that person to be - and goes on these lengthy screeds about how OBVIOUS all of this is and can't you just SEE if you follow his (clearly biased) evidence trial he's right? Then there's a guy who loving HATES him, thinks it's all crap, and goes on equally lengthy replies line by line. As far as I can tell they both think Adnan did it anyway so what they're loving arguing about I have no idea. To be clear, this isn't just me dunking on reddit either (as easy as that is). If you had any group who can just go over the same stuff over and over that's going to happen on Discord, Facebook, Coupons and Deals... Anyway, in light of yesterday's news I can see why the state aren't prosecuting any more, even if I don't quite go as far as saying it proves Adnan's innocence as I think they've said now. The state's case (again as far as I'm aware) was based on Jay's (and Jenn's) testimony, underpinned by the cell phone locations. That evidence has been discredited, and Jay has changed his story so much I think nobody would ever put him back on the stand. Hae was found without her shoes and eyewitnesses have said she was wearing one of the pairs found in her car (I've read conflicting information about whether one or both was found in the car itself or locked in the boot, and whether both have been tested or just one) - which Jay also said Adnan took off. So if the DNA has evidence from four people, none of them Adnan (or Jay), and presumably none of them have a legitimate reason to be there (e.g. a family member), then there's enough reasonable doubt that one of those people did they crime. Unless this DNA is completely conclusive and leads to a new suspect - and I'm assuming it's one of the two referenced in the Motion for it to lead to a complete exoneration - I doubt anyone sees the inside of a prison cell for the murder. There's just too much doubt and a lack of evidence pointing at anyone.
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Oct 12, 2022 17:30
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mobby_6kl posted:Yeah as I understood the cops and his lawyer hosed up in several ways, but he almost certainly did it. The "DNA evidence" doesn't even make any sense though, like why would his DNA have to be on the shoes? And if it was there, there's like a million reasons for it since he was the boyfriend. silence_kit posted:Interestingly, this narrative from the Baltimore City State's Attorney is disputed by the office of the Maryland Attorney General. It doesn't seem to me like there's any need for anything to exonerate Adnan. Just taking it at a surface level, the judge ruled the cops in 99 screwed up bad enough to throw out the old conviction, and the current prosecutors feel they don't have a strong enough case to risk retrial (where if they lose that's that, but dropping the charges now leaves a window for bringing them back up later). So regardless of whether he really did anything or not, he's back to presumed innocent.
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Oct 12, 2022 17:51
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he probably did it
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Oct 12, 2022 18:05
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EvilHawk posted:Because I apparently hate myself, I've been checking out the podcast subreddit just to get a bit more information about what's going on (or at least... try to). It's a loving fascinating example of what happens when you have a relatively insular society who can do nothing but re-litigate the exact same evidence over and over again for over seven years. You gotta stronger stomach than me. Any of those true crime fans who've gone deep in particular cases just seem to lose contact with what a normal person thinks. Various suppositions have become fact in their head, they've moved from evidence to interpretation of evidence to interpretation of the interpretation, with all sorts of 3rd and 4th order conclusions that just no longer have any connection to the actual case. Not to mention the police won't have released all evidence, so they're just scrambling around in the outline of a case.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:25
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Instead of a court of law and a jury of one's peers, cases should be decided by goons determining the vibes of the case.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:30
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what if a case has bad vibes
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Oct 12, 2022 20:03
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Gonna start a cooking podcast called roux crimes
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Oct 12, 2022 20:18
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ24r5gbzaI
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Oct 12, 2022 20:21
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worm girl posted:Instead of a court of law and a jury of one's peers, cases should be decided by goons determining the vibes of the case. he probably did it
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Oct 13, 2022 07:41
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my gut tells he probaby did if it also tells me to feast on taco bell so fwit
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Oct 13, 2022 07:43
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EvilHawk posted:Jay also said Adnan took off. So if the DNA has evidence from four people, none of them Adnan (or Jay), and presumably none of them have a legitimate reason to be there (e.g. a family member), then there's enough reasonable doubt that one of those people did they crime. Jay has also said that Adnan wore gloves. I am suspicious that this DNA test result really shook the case and/or that there really was a re-investigation. I suspect that the Baltimore City State's Attorney wanted to free Adnan and just want to be able to point to something, anything to justify that decision. The Baltimore City State's Attorney in recent history has established a Sentencing Review Unit, part of whose mission is to release people, like Adnan, who have served > 20 years in prison for committing a crime as a juvenile. I suspect that they did an end-around this process because of the publicity surrounding Adnan. It looks bad to just reduce his sentence so they are creating this narrative, making all of these press releases that they are doing all of this re-investigation of the case and that the facts point to someone else committing the crime. I'm very skeptical. https://www.stattorney.org/office/bureaus-units/sentencing-review silence_kit fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 10:23
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kntfkr posted:what if a case has bad vibes If this ain't it, you must acquit.
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Oct 13, 2022 12:20
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The only evidence the state had against Adnan was Jay's story, which was based on the cellphone records. It's been proven that the cellphone evidence was unreliable, therefore the only evidence they had is worth poo poo all. You can't keep someone in prison when literally nothing points to their guilt. Also, to address sth from a while back - DNA on Hae's shoes is important because the crime scene evidence suggests she was carried or dragged to the burial location. They found several DNA profiles on the shoes, but none belonged to Adnan. Even if he wore gloves, how the hell did those other profiles get there?
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Oct 13, 2022 12:22
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Read the Wikipedia page on ‘Touch DNA’ and read the sources. There are many reasons why multiple people’s DNA could be on the shoes. It’s strange IMO that attention is drawn to the DNA on the shoes but why the question of whether it is potential suspects’ DNA always gets evaded. I think they are hiding that the DNA on the shoes is a red herring. What is your theory of Jay’s testimony? Was it cut out of whole cloth and fed to Jay by the police? How do you explain the timeline of the investigation and Jenn’s interviews? How do you explain that Jay led the police to Adnan’s ex-girlfriend’s car? Why did Adnan tell the police he asked his ex-girlfriend for a ride during a police interview the day after she went missing, and then in later interviews say that he never asked for a ride? Why did he tell his defense attorney that he and his ex-girlfriend would often have sex in the Best Buy parking lot, and then lie on the Serial podcast when asked about it? silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 12:27
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i listened to s town last week and mostly thought it was interesting although it manufactured a lot of that interest along the way when it was actually heading nowhere. i don't know what the specific word for that kind of manipulation is but it felt cheap and low brow - there's a murder, nevermind, there's hidden gold, nevermind, there's a conspiracy to keep his friends away, nevermind, etc. the thing is the john mclemore himself never came across as anything other than a man in a lot of self-denial with a typically awkward and hateful outlook on things. that's all right, but he was just a guy, so it did feel like the purpose of the show was just let's probe this guys hosed up life for any possible entertainment value we can and invent it where it doesn't exist. in the end i don't think it really added up to say anything that insightful, partly because it spent most of its time on narrative dead ends rather than him or his town, but also because his life ended in a sad failure to come to terms with anything. there didn't seem to be a wider relevance or really anything at all to be gleaned from his life other than human interest in what his life was like, right down to his sexual fetishes. which is a weird focus for a 7 hour podcast listened to by millions. it seemed like the show just ended because they ran out of angles to spin an hour out of on this - although, i think taking a wider look at the town could have produced a better and completely different sort of story, they just never really went there. not a bad few hours, but i thought the trojan horse affair which brian reed also hosted was a lot more interesting. it also injects the hosts into the story to a great degree, they must have identified this as a key part of the formula they've got going since serial. roomtone fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 12:43
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S-town is great as a narrative piece because there's no stakes, it's just a compelling story about a really interesting guy in a small town. There's no extra baggage like Serial.
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Oct 13, 2022 13:12
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Yeah. For me its Jay's knowledge of the car that's the key logical piece of evidence. The cell signals are whatever
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Oct 13, 2022 13:20
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I'm starting to understand why true crime "community" is universally maligned as weird freaks, thanks thread!
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Oct 13, 2022 13:30
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Thundercracker posted:Yeah. For me its Jay's knowledge of the car that's the key logical piece of evidence. The cell signals are whatever The timeline of the investigation was also: - Police pull Adnan's cell phone call logs, and find a call to/from Jenn. - Jenn was approached by police, and first didn't say anything - Jenn came back with a lawyer, and said that Jay told her that Adnan killed his ex-girlfriend - Police interview Jay, who says that Adnan killed his ex-girlfriend It is pretty hard to square this with 'Jay's testimony was 100% made up and was a police conspiracy', unless you believe in a pretty grand conspiracy. If you really believe in such a grand conspiracy (such that this sequence of events was a 'false flag operation' and that Jenn's lawyer was also in on it), then why didn't the cops plant Adnan's DNA all over the crime scene, etc.?? silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 13:32
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silence_kit posted:Read the Wikipedia page on ‘Touch DNA’ and read the sources. There are many reasons why multiple people’s DNA could be on the shoes. Jay's testimony changed every time he spoke to the police, and in the interviews he gave after the trial. He gave hours of off the record interviews to police, and after those his story changed to match the official timeline, the location of the car etc. He said the car had been in the car lot the whole time, but evidence shows it had only been there a short time and stored elsewhere. Jay also now says burial was nearer midnight, and that he first saw the body at his grandmother's house, which contradicts his testimony and the prosecution's case. For Jenn, she's just testifying to what Jay told her, and I think she believed her best friend. And I don't know why Adnan changed those details, but that doesn't mean he should have been convicted. I can't comment on the efficacy of trace DNA tests, but the state were looking for any direct evidence of Adnan being involved and they didn't find it.
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Oct 13, 2022 13:38
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Polly Pickpocket posted:Jay's testimony changed every time he spoke to the police, and in the interviews he gave after the trial. He gave hours of off the record interviews to police, and after those his story changed to match the official timeline, the location of the car etc. He said the car had been in the car lot the whole time, but evidence shows it had only been there a short time and stored elsewhere. Jay also now says burial was nearer midnight, and that he first saw the body at his grandmother's house, which contradicts his testimony and the prosecution's case. It's possible that Jay was coached by the police to alter his testimony to match the cell phone records. It's possible that he changed his story to minimize his involvement or to hide other crimes he or he and Adnan were committing that day. But why would Jay get involved in the case at all? And totally make up a story to implicate himself in the murder of Adnan's ex-girlfriend? Do you think that he did it, and is trying to pin it on Adnan? Why would he kill Adnan's ex-girlfriend? Do you think that his story was 100% made up by the police? How do you explain the timeline of the investigation then, and that Jay led the cops to Adnan's ex-girlfriend's car? silence_kit fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 13:44
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It's pretty clear that Jay, Adnan, and Jenn know more than they are letting on, but they can't show their cards without implicating themselves.
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Oct 13, 2022 13:46
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silence_kit posted:But why would Jay get involved in the case at all? And totally make up a story to implicate himself in the murder of Adnan's ex-girlfriend? Do you think that he did it, and is trying to pin it on Adnan? Why would he kill Adnan's ex-girlfriend? First para - the police went after Adnan and found out Jay borrowed his car and phone that day. He's stated that he was scared the police would arrest him for dealing. I don't know about anyone's motivations after that, all I'm saying is the circumstances are dodgy AF. Second para - I don't know, but that particular force was proven to be institutionally corrupt and we already know they withheld evidence from the defence. So I don't trust them. Ultimately, either Adnan did it and he's been let off because of lovely policing, or he didn't do it and the real culprit has never been put in prison. Neither option means Hae's got justice, which is disgusting.
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Oct 13, 2022 14:39
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Colonel Cancer posted:I'm starting to understand why true crime "community" is universally maligned as weird freaks, thanks thread! 
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Oct 13, 2022 15:57
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Never listened to serial, just reading about the case now. So, there is no physical evidence linking Adnan to the case? Just the Jay guy who says he did it? I read Jay's interview with the Intercept and it didn't inspire confidence.
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Oct 13, 2022 16:04
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The Clitoris posted:Never listened to serial, just reading about the case now. So, there is no physical evidence linking Adnan to the case? Just the Jay guy who says he did it? Yeah, basically nothing physical and just that. There's a note where Adnan wrote "I'm going to killl..." but it was apparently written in a class with his friend and they were joking, Hae mentioned Adnan was possessive in her diary (but immediately walked it back), and Adnan apparently asked for a lift after school (but he denies he would have, and other people who corroborate it either say she couldn't, or it was a different day). It's a case built on circumstantial evidence, which isn't in and of itself bad, but when the key witness has a history of lying and changing his story and anything that can be tied to Adnan has had doubt cast on it, I can see why the case has basically fallen apart.
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Oct 13, 2022 16:08
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I think he 100% did it, but I also think he 100% shouldn't have been convicted on this flimsy rear end evidence
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Oct 13, 2022 16:37
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"Enough evidence to convict" is kinda a weird metric, because if he was convicted then yes - there was enough. Serial leaves out almost all of what happened in the courtroom. The only example we have is Adnan mouthing something hostile to Jay. The decision could have come down to the jury thinking it was pretty loving weird that this kid couldn't account for himself as someone strangled his ex. Their specific reasoning doesn't matter, it's not a matter of public record.
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Oct 13, 2022 16:55
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ElGroucho posted:I think he 100% did it, but I also think he 100% shouldn't have been convicted on this flimsy rear end evidence
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