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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Omobono posted:

We're off to a good start :allears:

Where's the first weapon supposed to be, in the dream? I guess we'll discover next episode.
it's actually more complicated than that:

_______________________________________no it's not______________________________

___________________he's just blind and impatient______________________________

buddy of mine missed getting the Estus Flask in Dark Souls 2 as well because you have to talk to an NPC that's just standing there and he didn't see her


Only thing that would have been better than this start was if the beast had grabbed him in a way to push Nat through a gate that's supposed to be locked, skipping a huge chunk of the game

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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

anilEhilated posted:

Personally, I hope they stick with Arcane since I haven't seen an LP like that yet. Not sure when you get your first magic thing, though.
First tool: bone in Workshop

First offensive tool: gauntlet in Cainhurst

First possibility to make weapon arcane scaling + elemental: fire gem protected by brainsucker in the streets down in Cathedral Ward


EDIT: bottom line, you should know what you're doing if you're going into Arcane, so obv Nat should do it

Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 09:25 on Jun 10, 2022

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Man Tea one can already hear you gritting your teeth to tiny stubs as you accompany the world's leadt observant man lol

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Nat's fundamental disinterest in any item he picks up is sending me dark places (Yharnam)

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Natural 20 posted:


In Bloodborne, I've been hoarding bullets and vials. Bullets I hoard because the parry system is basically just arcane magic to me and I don't understand it or what a parry window looks like.
Have you considered...practice?

Ribbing aside, there is actually a good way to do that - use the blood bullets. For less damage than a Vial heals, you get 5 tries to hit a parry. Of all Soulsborne games (explicitly excluding Sekiro ofc), parrying is easiest in BB - the window is generous, and it's ranged, so often if you gently caress up, the enemy doesn't hit you anyway. Also, bullets often stagger (moreso with the Blunderbuss, admittedly) so maybe you interrupt the attack even if you don't get a riposte ("visceral") window.

If you stick with the Cane, you will want to go into Skill, and visceral attacks scale with that. Parries will allow you to do insane damage then.

quote:

But vials; I've been hoarding because I don't know if there are enemies that will require 20 to beat. From my understanding the game autosaves the moment you die.
The game auto-saves all the time, so you can't even, like, eat five vials against a difficult enemy group right after a Lantern, decide "naw I don't want to waste those" and reload.

quote:

Which means that if there's anything that's particularly difficult that I need practice on, then running out of vials during practice means that I need to stop practice and go farm blood echoes for more vials since I can't just reload a save with all my vials in tact.
You are absolutely correct: if you're struggling with a boss and have to try again and again, using a few Vials each time, eventually you will run out and have to farm. It's stupid because it is most punishing for new players and a complete non-issue for veterans. Veterans will also know about the "trick" that's been mentioned here already: if you have Echoes left over, always put them into Vials. It's never wrong to just buy a shitload of Vials. You can store 600 of them (patched up from 99, incidentally, which must have sucked), so keep buying Vials!!!

In general, never run around with Echoes to spare, imo. If you don't want to pop Coldblood to make up the difference to the next level's requirement, buy armor from the shop, or a new weapon, or Vials, always more Vials, or Bullets. Much better to have 6 more Vials than hope you don't die, then die, die again, and waste 2k Echoes.


By the way, now that you're way past that: there is an insanely convenient shortcut that I was slapping myself for only noticing super late. On the plaza with the brick troll banging against the door, to the left (as you come in from the big street) of the crows, there's some smashable objects. Behind them, you can drop down to where the dog cages are, turn around and unlock the shortcut to the house's ground floor immediately! No need to fight through werewolf bridge.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Let's put it this way, Nat: you have already correctly identified that there's a certain chance that at least one boss will take you quite a few tries. You also realize correctly that using Vials on attempts that end in failure will drain your stock until you have nothing left.

Here's where you're wrong: you think that you will be able to prevent that stock from draining by being extremely conservative with Vial use before said boss arrives. That's not true! There's only one thing that prevents running out of Vials and having to farm them: being (not getting!) good at the game.
- if you beat a boss quickly enough, obviously you won't need many Vials
- if you don't get hit too much while exploring, Vials don't drain as you go through the game, leaving you with more
- if you die during exploration (say, because you were conservative about healing!), you lose the Vials used up to the point of your death as if that were a boss fight attempt. If you're experienced at the game, you won't die much just going places, but you're not

However, you're a God Gamer, so maybe you are already good at the game. Then there's no worry, you'll kill every boss in three tries max, and you'll never run out of Vials. Let's hypothetically say you're not and there's a boss that kills you a bunch. Here's what your options are:
- you hoard Vials by not healing up as often during the stages, playing risky at low life, maybe even lose more than you save because an ambush at low life kills you, and you save up enough to allow you one more attempt at the boss before you have to farm. So you have to farm after, say, attempt 6.
- you just heal when you're hurt and don't worry about it. You have to farm after, say, attempt 7.

I really don't think the difference is going to be more than one or two boss attempts, is what I'm saying. In later areas, enemies will stop dropping Vials as frequently. Your assumption that saving one here and there and that adds up is plain wrong. The way to get a huge stock of Vials is by buying them with tons of Echoes you don't need for anything else right now, another thing that favors experienced players, because a) they won't need high levels to feel safe, they won't waste points in levels they know they don't need, b) they will lose Echoes much less often, c) they know that just buying a bunch of Vials at once when you have leftover currency is the way to go.

Bottom line: if you're new at the game, you will have to farm Vials at some point. No matter what. Unless you git gud extremely quickly, which is a possibility, don't get me wrong, but then you don't have to worry about conserving Vials now either.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Forgot to mention something, by the way: I'm not being super facetious with the God Gamer remark. Nat has been doing exceptionally well so far. Only one death to the werewolf bridge, only minor slip-ups on the big street, easily dealing with the brick troll without parries, an actually substantial stock of Vials already, and all that with the arguably most difficult to use starting weapon (main arguments: it simply has less damage than the others, less stagger in cane form, and is slow in whip form).

Tenebrais posted:

Has it ever been said why Bloodborne went with this blood vials system rather than the flasks worked in the Dark Souls games? Having your healing be a known quantity that resets at every checkpoint has always been very good for these kinds of games. Most of the differences Bloodborne has to the Souls games are built around forcing you to play more aggressively and decisively but I have no idea how this serves that purpose.
There was a huge discussion in the BB thread about that (it's why the thread title is still "more like Blood Viles"), and the arguments for the system as-is boil down to:
- incentivises you to engage with the rally system
- rewards you for killing enemies along the way (at least the ones that you know drop vials)
- this extends to boss runs, making it rewarding to not just sprint past everything
- "safe" kills like parries, backstabs etc. have more value, again rewarding you for being better at the game
- when you run out after a few boss attempts, the game forces you to take a break and cool down while you farm

Especially the last one imo only applies to people with a specific mindset, and it can maybe help you break out of bad habits, but I kind of doubt that someone who gets tilted easily from failing bosses will appreciate being told "calm down bucko and farm some Vials". Anyway, that's the gist of it.

Of course, Vials themselves have certain advantages over Estus:
- you always start with 20, don't need to upgrade the flask for quantity/kindle bonfires
- the heal is always a percentage of your health, so you don't need to upgrade for heal amount either
- animation is super quick
- because you can get them back during the level, if you keep up a good rhythm of using one before you get a drop, you can reach a boss after your first run through an area with almost full Vials

imo best of all worlds would have been a baseline of, say, 10 you always get and more that are farmable/storable. Which is what Nioh does, and DS2 as well as Sekiro accomplish with a secondary healing resource that's farmable/non-replenishing.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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psh, not even first trying Gascoigne? Some god gamer you are

Tea got the visceral explanation wrong. I posted about it on Youtube.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
The problem with the parry is that you never actually performed the visceral follow-up. I'll say it again: once the enemy is in its staggered state, after the sound cue, you have to get right next to them and press R1 from a neutral position (so you don't do a quickstep-R1 instead).

Your issue is that you have a long range weapon, so you were never doing a visceral on accident.

I don't agree that Gascoigne teaches you to parry or lose, by the way. Imo he teaches you that dodging away from enemies is a bad idea in BB. You should dodge towardsthem at almost all times.


EDIT: your thoughts at the end of the video about having to beat the boss right now and exploration being worthless are entirely wrong, Nat. From games want you to explore to get that edge. It's not "not fun", it's literally what's expected of you. Going into areas you haven't seen right now might give you upgrade materials, weapons to try out armor, and, most importantly, Echoes without needing to boringly farm, as well as plain experience with the game.

Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jun 25, 2022

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
tiny brain: the lockon is poo poo
normal brain: lockon is a crutch and you should learn to do without
galaxy brain: lockon is a tool like any other and it's also often poo poo

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Good job against Gasc! It seems you already learned two important lessons he's meant to convey: how to parry; and that dodging towards attacks is often safer.


There are attacks that are unparryable (e.g. you can't parry Gascoigne's shotgun blasts or other ranged attacks), but there's no such thing as "superarmor" protecting enemies. Here's what happened in the cases you failed to visceral:
- your and the enemy's attack connected at the same time. It's simply a question of momentum and bullet travel time. They're flying towards you, weapon/claws extended; they're hitting you with the hurtbox before the bullet connects with their center mass. If the attack is strong enough, you get knocked on your rear end and can't get up in time for a visceral. If the attack is weak enough, you just get a little bit of damage and can heal all of that back in the visceral, making the attempt worth it (you heal all the orange bar with a visc)
- you dashed towards them and hit R1 too quickly, making it into a dash-attack. That's the combo you're thinking of; you can't combo off parry [attempts]
- you tried to visc on a slope. It just doesn't work

Hilariously, the brick troll's charge is the easiest to parry attack in the game. You can shoot them whenever during its entire animation. But it does carry them forward towards you and they extend the brick in front, so...use the fact that you can parry from a distance! Their overhead slam is also no issue to parry. You just failed the timing! However, minor detail about this: big attacks like those do tend to have hyperarmor, in the sense that it's very hard to stagger (as in, make them stumble, not set them up for a visceral) the enemy out of them. Different attacks have different stagger values, so it might still be possible (e.g. the Axe's extendo-spin has insane stagger and can knock pretty much anything over out of any attack), but a simple gunshot doesn't stagger the brick troll out of the overhead slam if you don't hit during the parryable window, i.e. when the active attack part actually starts (arms going down vs. he's just rearing up). This is where e.g. the Blunderbuss might also fail, while it can interrupt other, less "heavy" attacks.

Finally, the form of your weapon has nothing to do with visceraling. You're not viscing with your weapon. You're pushing your arm into their guts. In fact, the weapon's damage does not matter in the slightest for visc damage. It only scales with Skill...and the gems on the weapon, for some reason.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Arkanian posted:

Part of it I think is also the fact that the game spawns a lantern in the boss arena at the end of most boss fights, and they don't want to have two lanterns that close together. So as a result, they rarely have boss fights super close to the lanterns that you use to get to them.

Whether that's a good idea is a different matter entirely; I just think that may be an additional reason for why they did that. They still could have made it so that there was always a lantern right next to the arena and the arena itself didn't spawn one, which is where the other reasons come in.
They didn't care at all about this in Dark Souls 3, which is why there's at least two instances of two bonfires being in visible range of each other.

Anyway, about the question itself: imo runbacks suck and they're unfun. However, something about the "teaches the player to become better" argument does ring true - for me, at least, in Dark Souls 1, my first From game, the runback to Taurus Demon almost broke me. I died so often on the way, and then I died so quickly to the boss and had to do all that again, I almost quit the game.

But I didn't. And eventually I had figured out a good tactic for each enemy on the way, so the runback became routine, and then I won and it felt amazing. Then the rest of the game began, and I was completely hooked.

BUT I almost quit. And Nat's situation is obviously different - he has absolutely no issue with the runback. It's already routine. It's teaching him nothing, it's just a waste of time. So that point falls flat.

I do agree that From does often want players to be learning a certain lesson, play a certain way, and it's perfectly happy to have you suffer until you learn the lesson, or suffer because you don't learn it and bruteforce through. This sometimes works well - hell, the entire idea of getting good at the games instead of them being "okay bb don't worry we'll just reload that checkpoint and look, there's plenty of ammo" is what draws people to them. But there's a limit, and as with many games, it's tedium. People rarely learn anything from that. It's why falling down a vertical platforming section feels worse than dying, even though both mean you have to redo it. It's psychologically obvious that your time is being wasted, and that's devastating for a game to feel like. This runback was so bad because there was nothing to learn. As long as I could optimize something in the Taurus runback, my time wasn't wasted. Nat's was, and he felt it.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
It's an extremely persistent myth that you can parry Cleric Beast. You cannot. What you can do is break its head. First stagger: you threw a molotov at it, breaking it immediately. Note that the next Molotov you threw at its head dealt roughly double damage - that's because the head was still broken, and bloody. CB then did that red aura thing; that healed the head, and it took normal damage again. You could have broken it again as a trade-off, but the next Molotov missed a tad.

Second stagger: you shot him in the head twice. Second time dealt enough cumulative damage to break the head. Then he doubled over so you stood inside it. I said it on YT, but the visceral animation is you ripping his brain out. The game does not, for better or worse, want to teleport you in front of it for the animation, so you have to start roughly in front. That's why you couldn't pull it off. And yes, it's finicky as hell, not meant as a defense.


The Threaded Cane is serrated, by the way. In whip form. Serration (and the other one) is a hidden stat, it's not stated anywhere in-game except for the vague "this rips apart beasts lol" on the Spear.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Natural 20 posted:

WHYYYYYYY?
there is actually a "deals extra damage to beasts" stat, it's a small symbol underneath the other stats (next to "does it poison/fast poison" symbols). However, serration has nothing to do with that :v:.

Honestly, it doesn't matter. BB is not a game that wants you to pick a weapon for the situation. It's perfectly happy if you choose one weapon and stick with it the entire game. There's tons of hidden advantages weapons have, e.g. thrusting damage it sometimes really good against some enemies, the Axe has much higher Rally potential natively than the Cane has (but it's not serrated), and so on. If "third hit of the combo has 1.17 times damage multiplier" would be shown, people would (rightfully!) complain that the menu is overloaded with information.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Hell yeah Alfred, finally someone who's on the level

- reiterating that you can visceral with any weapon in any form
- armor stats are generally whatever. The difference between 90 and 110 physical is meaningless. Only the starting armor and a few joke pieces have actually bad stats and you'll feel the extra damage. Also, there IS a tradeoff which is actually shown but who cares about numbers, amirite? Gascoigne's set has the highest poison resistance in the game.
- stamina is not worthless, but its actual value is dependent on what you're using. E.g. if you're using a heavy weapon that drains your whole bar with two swings, and then you can't dodge, you probably will want some more bar. Other weapons have super long combos and the damage actually increases as the combo goes on, so you want to have enough for the full combo AND a safety dodge
- dogs are in fact the worst enemy in any From game

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I absolutely get where you're coming from; I kind of had the same misgivings about Mind in Elden Ring, which ONLY increases FP (mana), so it felt a lot like a "spend 4 points so you can cast once more" tax, and that seemed bad.

However, there's certain abilities you need a relatively high minimum amount of FP for, so in that sense, it's like statting Str for requirements, which is normal. And you can see it the same way in BB: having a baseline of stamina unlocks certain abilities.

Another comparison: there's (minor ER mechanics spoilers, game tells you about them tho) spells you can keep casting with little cooldown as long as you have FP and stamina, and the BB mechanic I mentioned is similar in that a longer bar will allow you to blitz something down you can't otherwise.

But yeah, you are correct, you're not going to see an immediate benefit for each point in End, and you should spend your Echoes instead of hoarding them. Imo you should just be open about the general benefits of putting a few points into End in the future, especially if you end up switching weapons.

Sorry about that spoiler btw, but I feel like you're not the kind of player that upon getting a new weapon tests the entire moveset for half an hour and evaluates if it's worth switching (and it's still not obvious that a weapon is a "combo me please" one). I can be less detailed in the future of course.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Personally, I feel like it's extremely hard to argue about stats and the statting thereof itt because Nat's going to say "well with my extremely incomplete information," and all the people who've played the game are going to have to tightrope around those gaps in knowledge in order not to spoil anything. Imo just play and you'll see at some point that there's going to be gaps to be filled: you die too often or you notice that you can't dodge as often as you need to or your damage feels lacking, and then you stat what you were missing.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Bullets are a limited resource, but here's a hot tip based entirely on information you already got: whenever you are hurt just a bit and want to top off, make blood bullets first, then top off. Five free bullets! And whenever you foresee needing to parry a lot, just make them regardless and heal - you lose out on maximum efficiency because you overheal, but 5 bullets cost more than 1 (or technically, 1.5) blood vials.

Mega balls move: make blood bullets, then hit a nearby enemy to heal.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I 100% agree with Nat on the blood vials. This is the exact kind of situation where the system is just really stupid. You know you can beat the boss in a few more tries, and want to keep practicing, but for every three tries you have to stop building up muscle memory and learning moves and go for a pointless boring farming run. Yes, Nat could go "somewhere else", but he's obviously perfectly capable of beating BSB right here, right now, and he does not need more weapon upgrades, he does not need more resources, it's just a matter of trying a few more times and figuring out the third phase.

And beating BSB unlocks the prime "go somewhere else" spot, so

This exact thing happened to me, and it was especially unpleasant because I also happen to really hate BSB. It keeps jumping backwards out of my swings, its obfuscated shape tends to make me whiff [visceral] attacks even if I think I'm close enough, and it has a grab move that can basically instantly kill. Which also comes out rarely enough that you keep forgetting it exists. It's just a super unfun fight for me, the rhythm is always wait for it to do an attack you can punish -> hit once or twice -> have it disengage, now you wait again. Its flailing combos need to be waited out completely, its lunge attack is basically unpunishable because it just keeps running in circles afterwards, it's so frustrating. At least by now I know how to do it but it's never fun for me.

And yeah, that pretty substantial runback with a 17/20 Blood Vial counter in the back of my mind telling me "you better win now or you have to do another farming run, tee hee" was just terrific.

EclecticTastes posted:

One source of difficulty for you, I think, comes from how defensively you're playing. It means that every hit you end up taking has to be healed with a Blood Vial. More aggressive players will get a lot of their healing from the rally system, beating the HP out of their enemies' faces. Even if they take more hits, they often get that health right back, and when they die, they end up not having spent as many Blood Vials since they weren't hanging back and popping them after each hit. Being overly cautious in Bloodborne just gets you worn down and your resources depleted.
Unless you really, really know what you're doing, you can't play aggressively against BSB. Nat is playing fairly in its face already, and that keeps him getting grabbed or tagged by one more swing than you'd expect, he keeps trying to parry the lunge which I think is possible but the timing is stupid, that's all generally good principles of BB play. I don't think this is on him.

White Coke posted:

Subjecting himself to grinding instead of exploring alternate locations just seems like a way to make the game unnecessarily unpleasant when Nat's other critiques of the game have been pretty salient, especially regarding blood vials.

Does Nat have any armor that has better resistance against poison, and is there any other way to buff his resistance to it?
The best poison resistance armor in the game is available. There are other ways, but they're not, like, around the corner. As in, you either do a completely different route through the game postponing BSB until it's truly a joke, or you beat it to eventually reach that. This is a "dodge or munch antidotes" fight. Which is also stupid, because they're limited and not cheap.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Nikumatic posted:

tea make nat use the cum dungeon next

If Tea guides Nat into the dungeons next this LP will end in a ragequit

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Hours of practice until you can effortlessly clown on scary bosses is how one becomes a hunter. Congrats!

You can immediately see how your higher Skill (stat not proficiency) has an impact: not because the Cane deals a lot more damage - your viscerals do.

Something I find really neat is how helpful Alfred is. Not only does he give you Fire Papers, which is exactly what BSB is weak to, he also comes along himself, and even shows you how awful using slow smashy weapons against BSB can be. What a legend.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Slaan posted:

Is it bad to use slow smashy weapons for bsb though? I beat him using the kirkhammer the first time i found him. This boss just didn't seem hard to me at all
As I said, I really hate BSB because I can never get into a rhythm with it, and it frustrates me immensely if it dodges away from my hammer swings. Add to that my issue with perceiving if I'm even close enough to it (making the hammer deal only piddly non sweet spot damage), and it quickly got very annoying for me. It's definitely a "me" issue though.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Natural 20 posted:

I laughed so much at this when I read it by the way.
excellent


anyway now I hope you immediately try to push through all the way to Pthumeru 3

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Tea still hasn't understood the difference between a parry (you shoot something with the gun during their attack window, making them stagger and ready for a visceral) and causing the stagger by other means (limb breaks, dealing enough damage in a short amount of time), which might set them up for a visc or not. You were able to visc the Giant after dealing enough damage in a short amount of time to it, and he has another mechanic you used to kill it: it has a pustule on one leg that causes massive damage if you pop it. You cannot parry it with your gun.

I don't like Undead Giant. It is much more of a Dark Souls boss than it is a Bloodborne boss - in other words (for Nat and others with no comparison), as Nat himself found out, you wait until it has finished a combo, then you attack. Do not try to combo it, don't try to weave in and out of its attacks, and you can't even dodge through the first attack of its combo, get behind it like that and have the other attacks whiff as you wail on it (that kind of works for BSB and works wonders for Cleric Beast, for example). Undead Giant can turn on a dime, extend its combos by a LOT, and has a kick as well as the slam in the second phase to punish you being close to it for longer. The only consistent way to fight it is indeed to wait, get a hit or at max two in, and back the gently caress off again. The only wrinkle is that you can pop the pimple whenever you want, ideally at the end - as Nat did - because it trigger the phase transition if that hasn't happened already. So, Nat actually did it perfectly. Kudos!

Natural 20 posted:

Nat20's Tuesday Essay (on a Wednesday)
These are all very valid deliberations. I don't necessarily agree that you'll have to grind for every time you go out into the world of Yharnam, like it's a routine for every raid; you are quite skilled at the game already, and you'll find yourself with an Echoes surplus often enough that you will just be able to stock up. Especially if you're not allergic to Chalices, because exploring them rarely costs you too much in the way of Vials, the deeper you go, the more Echoes you'll get, and eventually you can easily decide to go into a Chalice when you're stuck at a boss, for variety, progress in the Chalice itself, and a nice stash of Echoes you can turn into sometimes triple-digit amounts of Vials to set you up for a bunch of boss tries.

But the beginning of your journey to arrive at your conclusion is very valid - imo dealing with the system requires a mindset change for most players, unless you start with the "correct" one (to not get frustrated, that is). For me, figuring out that you can always go somewhere else, that the game is much less linear than it appears to be (as Tea said, Old Yharnam is optional), was the breakthrough, just mentally. Vials running out? Just go dungeon diving for a bit. Usually, taking a break on a boss is not a bad idea anyway. However, I know plenty of players, like a buddy of mine, who cannot deal with a boss left unbeaten and who hate going into multiple directions at once - this argument won't appeal to them, so they'll have to find another solution to deal with the issue that is the limited consumable.


EDIT: was writing this while watching the video. You keep complaining about not being able to follow up a successful parry, framing it as the game not working correctly. Now, phasing through the fatty? Bullshit. I grant you that. But at least two of the times you tried to visc the watchers, you parry from far away - they're staggered - you stroll over - they are no longer staggered as you reach them. You have at most a second to visc them after a parry. Every enemy remains staggered for the same amount of time, that's consistent - it's up to you to get to them in time. That's the tradeoff for the parry being long-range. In Dark Souls, you parry with a shield in melee range, you'll always be close enough for a riposte/visceral. In BB, you often have to dash towards the enemy to visc in time. And if they knock you down with the attack you parry at the same time, tough poo poo - you won't get up in time, that's just how it is.

Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jul 20, 2022

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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I admire your dedication to try and parry literally everything, standing there gun cocked as a freight train descends upon you, but I also lol about it a lot

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Here's a bit of a boss analysis.
- you can break his limbs like most beast bosses'. The forelegs are obvious and it happened often, but you can also break the hind ones - they are much more durable tho - and the head, which happened at the end with the BMA'd gunshot
- limb breaks stun the boss for a bit (not a stagger that can be visceral punished, so it doesn't play the you-parried-sound, TEA) and make further hits on the limb deal more damage
- the boss always responds to a leg break with an AOE explosion, so punishing his stun is actually a bad idea, at least if you wildly combo your stam away
- the phase transition is signified by the big explosion where it sucks sparks in. This doubles as its limb heal move, making the legs take less damage again, but open the boss up to being staggered again
- trying to break the head is insanely risky, but if you find a good way to do it (e.g. by whipping it from far enough away that you can evade the bites), you can really rack up damage after it's broken. Maybe not the best tactic, but it exists
- you cannot parry any move this boss does. It's simply too big

I don't like Watchdog much in practice - it is a boss that forces you to be defensive, to avoid its constant tantrums, AOE explosions, and of course the charge, and that is not fun in BB's system - but it's definitely well thought out overall. Again, this is a boss that would be better in a Souls game.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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AtomikKrab posted:

Well that fight ended far differently then I expected
My first fight against Djura ended the same way, except he fell down the other side of the tower. I happened to capture what happens then

https://twitter.com/SimonSimplex/status/789214877520912388?s=20&t=L5tAdP5ruRcclBa6IJxN-w

(reloading the area, as is tradition in From games, fixed the issue by putting the item drop at his spawn point)

I really don't know why Tea is so insistent on calling Old Yharnam optional. Yes, it is, but like 50% of the game is. There's good poo poo everywhere and it's well worth exploring everything. Like, if you had checked out said parts of Old Yharnam that Tea mentioned exist and that you just dismissed, you could have gotten the armor set with the best fire resistance in the game. That would have made Hot Dog a little easier!

In the same vein, I've written that on YT, but it's baffling to me how allergic Nat is to optional content just being there. If you grind for a new armor in Monster Hunter, do you feel unaccomplished after you finally got all the parts because they game doesn't tell you "good job you did it you got the armor, now you can fight [x] because it has better [y] defense"? Or do you just kill things because...it's fun?

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
If you don't feel like leveling up to go stronger, you could also level up to try out new weapons. Especially on a first blind playthrough, just knowing what's on the menu is quite useful. I personally don't think the Tonitrus is fun at all, however it's insanely effective, and you could probably see that immediately by taking an unupgraded one for a spin through the first area, netting you some Vials at the same time.

Speaking of level ups, you claim you're doing a "visceral-focused build", which is fine and fun, just two comments which are not new information itt:
- don't forget about blood bullets if you keep parrying
- visceral attacks scale with skill
- incidentally, at +6, the cane also starts to massively scale with skill. just saaaaaaaaaayin


Obligatum VII posted:

It's good to experiment with different weapons in From games, particularly Bloodborne because they're largely all so distinct in it. I just think it's fun to try out different stuff as a change of pace. I'm one of those people who makes weapons of every single type in monster hunter and rotates between them.

Edit: Also, I forget, but was it brought up that fire adds arcane scaling? At least, that's what I remember.
Making weapon elemental is weird in BB. As we could see in the video, when Nat slotted the gem, it didn't add extra fire damage, it replaced all the physical damage with fire; and thus, him adding the +x% physical damage gem afterwards did absolutely nothing. There's also no "added" arcane scaling; the cane scales low with str, extremely well with skl, and middling with arcane. The latter is entirely pointless as long as you keep it physical. The spear scales okay with both str and skl (latter slightly favored) and also fine with arc - which, again, is pointless unless you make it into an elemental weapon. Now that Nat did that, the spear no longer scales with str and skl at all, it purely scales with the arc scaling it already had but that was unused. You're switching the main damage type completely.

There are weapons that natively have some arcane damage component to them, and for those, that part of their damage does in fact scale with your arc stat in the weapon's basic form while the physical component scales with str and skl. Said basic form is the only form; you cannot make those weapons elemental.


EDIT: I was writing while Nat wrote his post, so it wasn't intended as an answer, but here's a concrete one: you're missing three levels in Str to try the Tonitrus. That's nothing. There's 4 Skill-focused weapons that require at least 10 Str, so you're only "wasting" two points, and one more weapon that requires 11 that you could then try out. Three more weapons require 14 str, so if you find one of them and go "man this looks sweet as poo poo", you don't have to spend much to go for those as well. Nobody is asking you to immediately go 18 Str to check out the Stake Driver.

Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 11:54 on Jul 30, 2022

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Btw if you don't roll through all those pots in that room, you're a psycho imo

Should have switched this comment and my "this is not what aggro means" on YT oh well

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Bloodborne and DS2 were developed concurrently by separate teams. They took what worked from both and made their most accessible game to that point with DS3, then made it even more accessible with Elden Ring. They are absolutely learning lessons, their development process just wasn't as linear as release order suggests.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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hazardousmouse posted:

Ds3 had a Respec system?

Sure did. Five times per playthrough but they never patched a bug that allows you to do it infinitely often

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Guillermus posted:

What bug is that? Not that I really respecced a character more than twice but I'd love to know it
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2174940134

I've never performed it myself, but it seems to be as easy as Alt+F4 before the final confirmation

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Rifle Spear is one of the few BB weapons where I'd say it's just fine. I know it has some fans, but I personally never found it very exciting. The biggest thing it has going for it, aside from the "has gun" part (you know what else has a gun? Your left hand), is the R2 charge, which covers a lot of distance, deals a fuckload of damage, and has good stagger. And to confirm, it's a physical damage only weapon, and that part scales only with the physical stats, as is true for every weapon. ONLY the gun part scales with BT. iirc it used to actually be bugged in that it would apply damage from your gems and/or weapon buffs incorrectly to the bullets, so you could go into PvP and just shotgun people dead from full health, but they patched it at some point, now if you want extra shotgun damage, you're going to have to slot Bloodtinge gems, and it's never going to be good, while also leaving your physical damage in the dust. Eh!

As for the good Vicar, excellent job. I had a lot more trouble with her the first time around for sure!

Like every big beast boss, you can't parry her. You can break her limbs, which you did, again making you do extra damage on that spot. If you break the head - which is especially easy with a weapon that hits high up, like the whip - it staggers her, opening her up for a visceral. That ended the fight, basically, especially because the broken head then took more damage. Her big trick except for a lot of varied combos and the prayer-shockwave is her healing; you can just outdamage her (particularly with a +6 weapon, which is slightly overtuned at this point but your reward for exploring, eh, eh?), or throw the conveniently placed NO HEALING item.

Speedrunners do her with a specific rhythm of just going from limb to limb, letting stamina regenerate as they stroll from fore- to backleg, breaking each in turn so that she literally doesn't get to do anything. It's a sight to behold.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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There's nothing wrong with it, don't take my personal "eh" feelings as gospel. Hell, properly gem'd and with your stats distributed to the soft caps, this might be a secret monster!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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New weapon seems to be too short for your playstyle. Might I suggest a longer one that also closes distance, like the Threaded Cane?

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Realtalk tho: the door that just randomly opens is loving stupid. The trigger for it to happen is killing BSB, and it makes no sense whatsoever. I kept running past it on my first playthrough, and when I looked up stuff I had missed way late in the game, the wiki was like "oh you reach [x] through the workshop" and I was like what. where

As Nat will probably know by now (spoilering just in case), this is what makes Cleric Beast optional, sure didn't feel like it at first though.

Added bonus? Him saying "I don't know where to go now" was also me for quite a while, another thing I had to look up. Spoilering everything about that as well, though I will remain vague within: actual game progress is also not obvious at all, or rather that Nat already got a key of sorts

I almost figured it out, but then I got lost trying to find the place to confirm my suspicion, so I caved. Not the funnest or most well-made part of the game imo

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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The enemies didn't actually change because the world changed - there's another reason...

Navigating around Cathedral Ward is kinda heavy, yeah. As you discovered, going straight up the stairs is just not the best idea, enemies having eye lanterns now (look closely) notwithstanding - the "change" didn't add any more dudes, or give them guns, or whatever. They have always been there.

Anyway, if you do go through old areas with open eyes and mind instead of insisting that it's old and therefore bad and you just want to move on, you learn more about them and maybe discover paths you missed and also it makes navigating a lot smoother. I realize that this is an LP and you do want to see and deliver new content; however, I do think it's worth pointing out.


By the way, I have no idea what brick wall Tea is talking about. But everyone has different things they just cannot deal with. Mine was BSB as said, and not many things afterwards came close to that level of "gently caress this so hard, I'll never get through this".


EDIT: Tea is just giving you horrible advice this video, lol. You do not have to "book it" into Henryk's arena - you can in fact casually drop down to the right (where the bauble was), sneak up on him, and backstab his rear end. Eileen takes forever to show up, as you discovered yourself. Also, rip

anilEhilated posted:

I think what's happened there is that you managed to hit Eileen right before the other guy finished her, because that sounded like a you-pissed-me-off-prepare-to-die speech you'd normally get by attacking her. Maybe you nailed her with the anti-healing item?
I'm pretty sure Nat's last swing both aggro'd and killed her, and the "you hosed up now" dialogue overrode the death one

Simply Simon fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Aug 5, 2022

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Wanted to point out btw that this is the actual ideal outcome for people looking to get Eileen's drop here (is it a spoiler that it allows you to buy her weapon?) mostly hassle-free. You can of course try and fight her for it when you first encounter her, but, uh, good luck.

Blessing in disguise?!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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Slaan posted:

I can't figure out what brick wall Tea is talking about. I never hit one until Moon and lake, and that's far off
Shadows is a boss that's super easy for some and insanely hard for others, and for many players also navigation is a hard boss :v: - maybe it's that.

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Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

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EclecticTastes posted:

You're a little mixed up about your churches. The church you seemed to be thinking of is Oedon Chapel, while the Great Cathedral is where you fought Vicar Amelia. So, "to the right" in that context is a little easier to parse, because it obviously means to the right when approaching the cathedral, because the interior is a dead end.
He's still right about being confused, the directions could easily mean "go out the cathedral, then to the right" as well as "approach the cathedral, then turn right". It's a videogame-rear end problem, if this game had a map you could say "to the east" and then it'd be clear.

I disagree with it being a useless hint, and I don't know why Nat is so dismissive of it? There's two possible directions no matter how you read it. Just try it?! If you dead-end at some point or go to far, that probably wasn't it, if you find it, it was it.

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