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Raenir Salazar posted:A part of me is actually legitimately concerned if he's trying to do this on purpose to further rally his base and trying to pull a Hitler. I am unclear on what the other part of you thinks is going on.
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Apr 24, 2024 01:12
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Lammasu posted:Trump can't write a book by himself. He needs a ghost writer, and he can't get one right now. He'll pay after the sales figures are out.
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Apr 24, 2024 01:13
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:He's being charged with violating a gag order which is similar to but not necessarily the same thing as contempt. I was replying to someone who was specifically talking about contempt specifically, which is why I was responding about contempt. And while they have a lot of latitude about contempt charges, they seem pretty loathe in general to apply them unless the person is making a serious in-person scene (or, for example, refused to show up in court when it was required of them to).
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Apr 24, 2024 01:13
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skeleton warrior posted:I am unclear on what the other part of you thinks is going on. He could just be a narcissist whose only way to process people being mean to him is to yell about it online for sympathy. Not everything has to be a chess move.
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Apr 24, 2024 01:17
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Raenir Salazar posted:A part of me is actually legitimately concerned if he's trying to do this on purpose to further rally his base and trying to pull a Hitler. I dunno that would require him to be personally inconvenienced to such an extent I couldn't see him doing it for any amount of power, maybe his handlers are setting it up though.
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Apr 24, 2024 01:58
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The Bible posted:Just a reminder that I Toxxed awhile back that Trump won't set foot in a prison, including house arrest. A bold toxx but... not really any sense of misplaced confidence on this one
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Apr 24, 2024 02:04
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Kavros posted:A bold toxx but... not really any sense of misplaced confidence on this one I tried to believe this thread's confidence in the legal system was justified, I really did, but this is all just too much. poo poo just piles up, but absolutely nothing actually happens, no matter how poorly Trump conducts himself in court. The judge just gives him the stink eye, a fine that he may or may not pay, and nothing ever loving happens.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:11
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The Bible posted:I tried to believe this thread's confidence in the legal system was justified, I really did, but this is all just too much. My favorite part is when people are all "stop being doomers" when there's literally no precedent whatsoever to believe there's going to be a consequence. We must all believe that yes, surely THIS time is the one time he'll face a meaningful consequence.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:21
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Trump's team has already done the math. With all the appeals, they can easily run out the clock on November, and then none of this matters. If Trump wins he becomes a lawless deity. If he loses, he loses everything. The election will determine his fate, not the courts
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Apr 24, 2024 02:27
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Judge Schnoopy posted:Trump's team has already done the math. With all the appeals, they can easily run out the clock on November, and then none of this matters. If he is found guilty by the jury he is going to prison you don’t get to stay a criminal trial verdict and wait to go to jail. You can appeal from jail. That being said he isn’t going to jail before a guilty verdict that way a judge can cowardly say they didn’t make the decision it was the jury because apparently every judge in the country is terrified of actually making him accountable from the bench.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:40
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:My favorite part is when people are all "stop being doomers" when there's literally no precedent whatsoever to believe there's going to be a consequence. We must all believe that yes, surely THIS time is the one time he'll face a meaningful consequence. Fine, you can keep those sorts of opinions to yourself since they contribute nothing whatever to the discussion. It's just white noise.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:42
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Vire posted:If he is found guilty by the jury he is going to prison you don’t get to stay a criminal trial verdict and wait to go to jail. You can appeal from jail. That being said he isn’t going to jail before a guilty verdict that way a judge can cowardly say they didn’t make the decision it was the jury because apparently every judge in the country is terrified of actually making him accountable from the bench. Uhhh what? Elizabeth holmes was convicted in January of 2022 and didn't step foot into jail until may of the following year after several appeals. Navarro was convicted in Sept of last year and didn't see jail until March. If you are rich (or have fame) you absolutely get to stay out of prison for ages while the system grinds through appeals. If you think trump is going to see the inside of a NYS prison this year, even if convicted and sentenced to jail time in the next month or two, I have a bridge that got hit by a boat to sell you.
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Apr 24, 2024 02:48
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blastron posted:He could just be a narcissist whose only way to process people being mean to him is to yell about it online for sympathy. Not everything has to be a chess move. He’s called for violence before. He suggested that if Clinton won, maybe some “second amendment solutions” would be needed. He’s called on his audience to beat people up for protesting. He calls for violence because he thinks it will help him, it’s a thing he does, not a chess move.
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Apr 24, 2024 04:34
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skeleton warrior posted:He’s called for violence before. He suggested that if Clinton won, maybe some “second amendment solutions” would be needed. He’s called on his audience to beat people up for protesting. He calls for violence because he thinks it will help him, it’s a thing he does, not a chess move. I believe that specific phrasing was from Sarah Palin (not that Trump hasn't begged his followers to kill his enemies in a thousand different ways).
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Apr 24, 2024 05:30
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I believe that specific phrasing was from Sarah Palin (not that Trump hasn't begged his followers to kill his enemies in a thousand different ways). I misremembered the exact phrase, it was “second amendment people” who could stop Clinton’s Supreme Court. https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-2nd-amendment-folks-stop-clintons-supreme-court/story?id=41239648
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Apr 24, 2024 05:55
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Kchama posted:Because he legitimately hasn't hit the level for 'contempt' yet. It's a shockingly high bar to clear for any decent judge. And unfortunately they're not allowed to use your actions in other cases to start with higher penalties. And the reason why the highest fine is 1000 is so a judge can't ruin a poor defendant so easily. If you could fine someone millions for being a dick in court, that would absolutely be used to annihilate a poor person who pissed off a bad judge. And you can't just scale it to their wealth because the bad judge would find way to abuse that. This is a solved problem. In Finland, most fines are calculated as "päiväsakko", roughly translated to "day fine". The idea is that instead of slapping a euro denominated sum, it's sentenced in days. It's basically a multiplier for your income, and is meant to make it so that the fines would hurt a poor and rich person about the same. You can fiddle with it here if you are curious: https://poliisi.fi/sakkolaskuri For the sake of simplicity, if we want to fine to be 1000 dollars for the median American (making 52k a year, so like 4300 per month), they would be fined 15 päiväsakkos. If we presume Donald makes a mil per month (the calculator for the finnish police doesn't go higher, lmao) Donald would have to pay 250k. The system isnt ideal but it offers at least some scaling Edit: For more reference, someone making minimum wage would get a fine of 240 dollars in this system. EDIT2: I went and found some info from here: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/21/trump-income-tax-returns-detailed-in-new-report-.html Now just because the po po's calculator caps out at 1 million doesn't mean that the law does. I went and calculated manually that if we presume Donald has an income of 23 million, he'd be fined about 480k in this scenario. This system eliminates the concern of rogue justices, but holds the rich accountable. Keisari fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 07:48
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Keisari posted:This is a solved problem. In Finland, most fines are calculated as "päiväsakko", roughly translated to "day fine". The idea is that instead of slapping a euro denominated sum, it's sentenced in days. Weirdly, it seems like a system is already in place in New York. Fines and contempt jail-time is normally fixed at 1000 and 30 days, with a total maximum of 3 months period for jailtime. But that 1000 can be given infinitely, and increased based on the person's income if they violate uh... some subclause that I can't actually read without having to pay money or register an account. But that's the only time they can employ the sliding scale fines.
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Apr 24, 2024 08:01
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Kchama posted:Weirdly, it seems like a system is already in place in New York. Fines and contempt jail-time is normally fixed at 1000 and 30 days, with a total maximum of 3 months period for jailtime. But that 1000 can be given infinitely, and increased based on the person's income if they violate uh... some subclause that I can't actually read without having to pay money or register an account. But that's the only time they can employ the sliding scale fines. That's interesting. Also, lmao found an American article about it: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/5/reima-kuisla-finnish-millionaire-issued-60k-speedi/ They do whine of course. EDIT: Right, so the "päiväsakko" or "day fine" is meant to simulate the lost income for spending a day in jail, so that it can be used instead of jailtime for minor infractions.
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Apr 24, 2024 08:04
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Isn't the issue with that system when you're at the level of like Trump etc that you don't really take a large salary but you get the access the benefits the money has by other means which means there's either no simple calculation that can be done and/or the fine relative to your "salary" is still tiny because your "salary" is only a tiny portion of the money you have access to. And then if you wanted to work it out and it be legal and not challenged by the billionaires team of lawyers you all of sudden need a team of legal accountants etc which is more complications and delays etc. Not saying the proportional system is bad It's certainly needed and works for the very wealthy (footballer wage types etc) but for the mega/ultra wealthy it might have issues.
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Apr 24, 2024 08:07
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jarlywarly posted:Isn't the issue with that system when you're at the level of like Trump etc that you don't really take a large salary but you get the access the benefits the money has by other means which means there's either no simple calculation that can be done and/or the fine relative to your "salary" is still tiny because your "salary" is only a tiny portion of the money you have access to. Right, I do get the concern. You probably couldn’t just treat is as a ”plug and play” model for the US. Here, the basis we use is taxable income, not salary. So all taxable income is counted, capital gains etc included. (But not inheritance, afaik.) If the taxmans says you made 12 mil, then you made 12 mil. However, if your income has dropped substantially you can appeal and have it moderated. So yes, there is some room for lawyer fuckery, but it’s better than a flat-sum based model or arbitrarily determined by a judge. I would also contend that it’s not this system’s fault if the tax system is leaky as gently caress. It’s much harder to gently caress with your taxable income here, the taxmans has broad interpretative powers to call anything you do that is motivated purely to reduce your tax bill “tax evasion” and then proceed to calculate it in a different way, and possibly punish you with tax increases. And yeah, you could for example, hide your income inside corporations and it would decrease your päiväsakkos if you go drunk driving. It's not perfect at all but if you need the money to live, you have to draw it out as taxable income one way or the other. EDIT: Example of the power of the tax authorities: Live in Finland and dont want to pay tax? Found a company in Estonia, but still work in Finland and enjoy the good Finnish pay with the small Estonian taxes! Whoops, tax authorities called your entire contraption tax evasion and will now tax your rear end like your company was based in Finland. You are now possibly hosed, depending if you committed tax fraud along the way. (I mean before the right wing shitheads inevitably clip the tax authorities' wings but that's a subject for Finnpol thread.) Keisari fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 08:17
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Kchama posted:Weirdly, it seems like a system is already in place in New York. Fines and contempt jail-time is normally fixed at 1000 and 30 days, with a total maximum of 3 months period for jailtime. But that 1000 can be given infinitely, and increased based on the person's income if they violate uh... some subclause that I can't actually read without having to pay money or register an account. But that's the only time they can employ the sliding scale fines. Can you find any references to the code or regulation? I may be able to track it down.
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Apr 24, 2024 09:24
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An issue with the idea of making fines tied to Taxable Income is that Trump is pretty infamous for having a unique relationship with the Tax system. He refuses to release any of his tax records, saying it's because of an ongoing audit (which has seemed to last 10+ years.) And the records that people did get access to all seem to say "I declare whatever I need to say to get what I want. Is this the part where big money is good? I'll maximise that. Is this the part where I want the numbers to be low? I'll put in the minimum figure here." One thing I'll say about all the "none of this matters. Trump is immune to consequences. " If that was true, why has Trump spent so much time and money on this? If the results were a foregone conclusion, why has Trump turned the RNC into a personal piggy bank to pay his legal bills? If all the court cases were meaningless, why is he sensing in fleets of lawyers? I view it that its not that they can't do anything, it's that Trump has to constantly and perfectly play defensive over and over again to stop him from hitting real consequences. And like a certain man said "He has to get lucky every time. We only have to get lucky once."
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Apr 24, 2024 10:01
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Also, since this is a criminal trial in New York, Trump has to be personally present in the court every single day and just sit there listening to everyone else talking about him - and he can't do or say anything (in court) about it. The current trial is expected to last roughly six weeks. That is six weeks where he can't really do anything. Reading comments by court reporters, he is already really miserable and the trial has just started. It will be interesting to see how he reacts and looks like in the coming days and weeks.
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Apr 24, 2024 10:30
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DTurtle posted:Also, since this is a criminal trial in New York, Trump has to be personally present in the court every single day and just sit there listening to everyone else talking about him - and he can't do or say anything (in court) about it. Okay, but what happens if he just doesn't show up?
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Apr 24, 2024 11:04
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They will be very angry with him, and they will write him a letter telling him how angry they are.
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Apr 24, 2024 11:11
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Dirk the Average posted:Okay, but what happens if he just doesn't show up?
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Apr 24, 2024 11:12
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Keisari posted:This is a solved problem. In Finland, most fines are calculated as "päiväsakko", roughly translated to "day fine". The idea is that instead of slapping a euro denominated sum, it's sentenced in days.
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Apr 24, 2024 11:39
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Fines being a method of paying to get away with things rather than an actual deterrent is endemic eg delivery companies just pay parking fines as the cost of doing business.
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Apr 24, 2024 11:56
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jarlywarly posted:Fines being a method of paying to get away with things rather than an actual deterrent is endemic eg delivery companies just pay parking fines as the cost of doing business. This is the answer. American laws are deliberately written such as to only deter the poor. People have to realize that there's a legacy of Jim crow in all these low level American laws. Most of them, in practice, act as 1) a revenue stream / idiot tax against the lower and middle class 2) an avoidable hassle for the rich, who can hire lawyers to deal with even trivial charges for them 3) a way to lock up the destitute, who cannot pay, so they stop being destitute in public where everyone else can see them. The intent of most low level offense laws is not to enforce equitable punishment. This particular statute is a little different because there is an intent to give the judge real enforcement authority against anyone acting the fool in court. But typically if you see "$1000 or up to thirty days" type penalties it's for something like driving under suspension or driving without insurance or trespassing or minor speeding or possession of small amounts of marijuana or other similar truly minor offenses, and the point of the penalty is that most people get a wrist slap and pay the fine and then if you can't pay the fine you go into the county worthless people bin for thirty days so everyone else doesn't have to see you.
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Apr 24, 2024 12:53
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Why is the trial taking a vacation today?
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Apr 24, 2024 18:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Why is the trial taking a vacation today? Merchan reserves Wednesday for general court business.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:08
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He also said that there would not be any business that requires jurors on Passover days, but I don't know if he is still sticking to that since there weren't any orthodox picked for the jury.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:10
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:He also said that there would not be any business that requires jurors on Passover days, but I don't know if he is still sticking to that since there weren't any orthodox picked for the jury. Probably some court staff will be out. It's likely something they do as a standard practice just to be covered.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:12
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Jewish lawyers? Now I've heard everything!
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Apr 24, 2024 18:14
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SpelledBackwards posted:Jewish lawyers? Now I've heard everything! We're here, We're
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Apr 24, 2024 18:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Why is the trial taking a vacation today? Reporting last week said Merchan also has responsibilities as the judge on a mental health court and its proceedings are on Wednesdays. It’s not a vacation day Merchan has a second job essentially and isn’t punting on those duties to rush for Mr. Trump’s sake.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:22
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Yiggy posted:Reporting last week said Merchan also has responsibilities as the judge on a mental health court and its proceedings are on Wednesdays. It’s not a vacation day Merchan has a second job essentially and isn’t punting on those duties to rush for Mr. Trump’s sake. Can we still refer to it as a "mental health day" just for fun.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:25
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:He also said that there would not be any business that requires jurors on Passover days, but I don't know if he is still sticking to that since there weren't any orthodox picked for the jury.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:25
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Yiggy posted:Reporting last week said Merchan also has responsibilities as the judge on a mental health court and its proceedings are on Wednesdays. It’s not a vacation day Merchan has a second job essentially and isn’t punting on those duties to rush for Mr. Trump’s sake. Explains why he was assigned this defendant. Does Trump still have to show up
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Apr 24, 2024 18:31
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Mon-Tues are court days. Thur-Fri are reserved for resolving all the poo poo Trump posted on Truth on Wednesdays.
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Apr 24, 2024 18:59
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