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OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

thebardyspoon posted:

If I had to guess, they have data showing some people love having a little challenge or number incrementing up and then unlocking something based on that, so decided to make that core to your skills. They just made it so it unlocked very core functionality which most people expect to be standard and then either their actual in house testers and focus testing in general thought it felt fine or they didn't listen to them if they reported that it felt pretty crap early on. Having to unlock basic poo poo like a detection meter felt like absolute poo poo to me, imo nearly all the level 1 things should have been baseline so you can participate in whatever activity/thing the thing governs to see if you want to spend points in it or not.

Just starting this thing, and, well: the unlock thing sounded interesting until I realized what it unlocked was the right to spend more skill points. I think if it also gave you a small bonus it would feel much better...

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OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Muscle Tracer posted:

This is true of pretty much everything about this game. 100 systems with interesting potential and no payoff.

Well, overly broad scope and unrealistic ambitions have led to plenty a game being a disappointment.

Some of it does indeed feel like lack of polish --- outpost building controls ridiculously poorly, and while it has potential, trying to put something in the desired spot is too hard to build anything substantial. Similarly some of the mechanics of spaceflight and ship building only seem to be surfaced in loading tips. And of course I had to do web searches to figure out how to shift things vertically in the ship editor.

I think it goes beyond that, and the mess of leveling and inventory systems make it really hard for the systems to really hang together, as you need basically infinity points to actually engage with all the systems, as well as infinity cargo shuffling. I seriously doubt there is a coherent vision of how all the pieces are meant to be engaged as part of player progression.

I think it's actually good that the base building isn't Dyson Space Program-level, that spacefighting isn't Elite, etc. --- simpler versions can still fit the core fantasy of the RPG and be fun --- but as you said, it's almost as messy to engage with as those things!

Extreme contrast: Tetris.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

infernal machines posted:

IDK if it's funny or just sad that the one and only result for killing universe hopping star children is a temporary buff to regenerating your power meter

Same

LOL, I am in process of playing the game, and upon looking at the mod above I went "what does that drop do anyway?" and googled it.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
One thing I wonder about: did I miss something, or did they just not do much with the Va'ruun?

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
There is a mod that lets benches (and you) access the lodge stash that someone here linked to before, what was it called? Universal Storage or something. Of course it's a bit of a balance change compared to just linking...

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Azhais posted:

The empty planets would be less boring if I could fly down to the planet, fly around the surface, then leave. But the all fast travel movement system makes the game feel like a series of vignettes and in that context "barren wasteland" is boring as hell

I am... sceptical... that flying over a bunch of rocks won't get boring past the first five minutes. (And it'd probably be tons of effort to add).

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Ugly In The Morning posted:

They couldn't even spare the effort to fill the existing perk tree with stuff that was interesting. It blew my mind you have to spend a level up on the boost pack being a thing you can actually use, and the scanner perks mean you spend like four skill points to get the scanner to a level of function it should have had as a baseline. Just obvious filler stuff to make the skill tree look bigger by having things to eat points.
Zero G combat bonuses (that require zero G kills) are probably the best. I think the skill system is the most remarkable thing about the game in just how bad it is and how much of it relates to all the subsystems that aren't really up to snuff.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

moist turtleneck posted:

I hate it when the UC gives me docile monsters to take out terrormorphs and provide me with an unpackaged unsquare food that gives more than 1 hp :mad:

I voted for them extra-hard given how the intro area to the plot line was partly about how the food quality kinda sucks, so having extra livestock seemed like a big win.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
They didn't develop them enough to have non-janky controls.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

DarkHorse posted:

I never noticed the "enemies pause space combat when boarding" because I always blew up all but the one ship that I wanted to board because of course it would be stupid to leave yourself undefended from attackers in the middle of a fight

Turn-based combat would have been a good idea I think for space combat. It would've given a chance to make lots of power management changes actually useful: power to engines to boost away from missiles, power to shields to tank some lasers, power to weapons to alpha an enemy. As-is you just slam the biggest reactor you can and power everything

I am suddenly thinking of Infinite Space (though its space combat was kind of bad, and I think it wasn't entirely turn based?) as a RPG game that nailed space exploration stuff (though of course it didn't have a looter shooter part...)

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Ursine Catastrophe posted:

The lead designer said the company as a whole doesn't bother with "extensive" design docs because they're not worth keeping up to date. Your definition of "extensive" may vary but there's a pretty big difference between "some random designer said that" and "the guy in charge of designing the game as a whole said that".



That said I will be Very Curious about the GDQ postmortem of starfield in like 5 years, once people start feeling like they can actually talk about it

Presumably a coherent vision of how the systems fit together would be a bit smaller than "extensive"?

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Alchenar posted:

A huge chunk of the game is designing and building your own personal spaceship, without anything to actually do in that spaceship the whole process is just putting lego together.

No wonder I liked that part best!

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Some of y'all should probably be playing Dyson Sphere Program instead or something.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Engines basically *are* tooling though.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
TBF, they didn't say the innovation has to be good, just novel. The game does make some contributions to fields of bad leveling systems and new ways of having pointless NG+.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

tadashi posted:

Crafting in games has been the same dumb system for years.

I'd like to see a game that moves on from what we've seen. I'm just not sure what gamers would accept.

1. Crafting and combat should be separate skills
2. Getting really good at making cheap lovely things doesn't really teach you how to make more advanced things. Like roasting 100 chickens won't prepare me for how to make a souffle.
3. If you have to mix combat and crafting, one of them should help with the other. In Wasteland, some of the non-combat skills unlock combat perks.


For RPGs with far more commitment to crafting, see the Atelier series, which have very elaborate crafting systems they focus on --- rather than throwing together fixed inputs to produce fixed output, you have choices of ingredients and partial inheritance from them, so the same recipe can produce things that widely vary in effectiveness.... which for many of these includes your party's equipment.
(They also tend to separate Alchemist and Adventurer levels).

Edit: the systems are mutually supporting in that exploration/combat get you better ingredients for alchemy, which lets you make better equipment and attack/healing/buff/debuff items.

OddObserver fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 3, 2024

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Shipbuilding is also the one area they got closest to actually success --- if you ignore the interior.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Making NG+ unlock stuff works great when you have a sub-hour cycle like something like Hades. In a very long RPG, OTOH...

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
I am just gonna put this here:
https://procedural-generation.tumblr.com/post/112509130817/elite-1984-elite-created-by-ian-bell-and-david

https://wiki.alioth.net/index.php/Classic_Elite_planet_descriptions

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

orcane posted:

that's because the ending of Andromeda was a giant wet fart (but the cargo cult "like Ilos in the first game!" section in your not-Mako was pretty good, racing towards the final boss in not-prothean ruins)



I feel like in Andromeda they tried to make an "exploring a new galaxy, how exciting!" game but completely failed, so they remade it as a very generic by-the-numbers game with tons of callbacks to the original trilogy.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Photo mode is great... for good games with interesting scenery.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
KSP itself actually kinda struggled with "what do you do when landed?" part, with DLCs adding landmarks to explore you can find with sensors from orbit, etc., but it makes getting there interesting.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Cyrano4747 posted:

I gave up on that dumb mini game really fast and modded it out.

It was basically the FO hacking mini game of this game. Just tedious and dumb

I thought tension was what gave games character?

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
My theory on Towers of Hanoi is that's what happens when the designer team delegates putting in a puzzle to the programmers (since it's a common recursion exercise, and is much better at that than being a puzzle).

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Ugly In The Morning posted:



There’s no interesting decisions to be made in the lockpicking game, it’s just a time sink. It’s not even a challenge, just tedious. If it either went faster, had some kind of time/resource pressure, or at least had the decency to make longer locks give better loot it would be received a lot better. The primary impediment it presents to a player is tedium, not difficulty
I would argue it's more interesting than remembering to fill up.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
It's sort of original/creative in unusual ways: I don't think I've ever seen a story with so little forward drive, for example.
(Similarly the character progression system is unusually bad).

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Talkie Toaster posted:

The ‘best’ outcome for the Stroud-Eklund quest happening when you persuade them to max the budget and try to do everything all at once certainly makes more sense.

I wonder if Bethesda's director also dumped his responsibilities on a buddy from the hobby that's taking all his time.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
That's cyberpunk in general. Shadowrun also throws in some native-american seeming stuff.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Economics of fixing MMOs are different than of single player games, though. (FF14 being the big example there).

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

moist turtleneck posted:

I love it when someone is like go to zimzam 17 and there's no waypoint and it's in gleeble system so there's no way to even guess where it's at

Lack of search function is one thing they definitely could fix.

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Jack B Nimble posted:

In Cyberpunk 2.0 most of the guns you pick up are "broken" and give a pittance of craftables on pick up. Guns remain valuable, you don't get overloaded, and you don't break the economy with one scav den's arsenal.



Also in Cyberpunk you can sell the guns you collected at convenient widespread kiosks, with a more than sufficient money cap in each for normal purposes.

Though what I think probably also matters is that you kinda mostly want unique weapons anyway?

OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009
Adjustable? Are they incapable of balancing their game?

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OddObserver
Apr 3, 2009

Alchenar posted:

Yeah there's an interesting dynamic going on where as the average age of the gaming audience goes up, people have more money for their hobby but less time. I think this explains why most games being played are over 6 years old, and why so many people value longevity and 'lifetime support' in a game.

I kinda feel like "games people can play with their kids" may be an underserved market given the demographics. (And that roguelites may be successful in part because of those changes?)

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