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Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Turin Turambar posted:

The zero G casino was cool to look at, but I didn't found anything special, like, environmental storytelling pointing that there was a failed heist? Or unique loot.
There’s the panel broken open below the main vault that leads to the jackpot computer, so it implies a heist. But yeah, a few notes or an audio log or the dead body of a manager locked in his office (so they couldn’t get the jackpot code) would’ve helped. So weirdly stingy about notes in this.

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Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Raygereio posted:

The game gets a "meh" from me. It's not bad, but once I've done one or two more side-quest chains and finished up the main quest I already know I'll have zero desire to revisit it. At least not until long after the modding scene is fully established and I can fix the various annoyances. Like Bethesda's perplexing decision to hide what should be core gameplay stuff behind perks.

Bethesda chasing the procgen-dragon and making a bazillion planets was definitely a mistake. Just like it was a mistake for everyone else who tried it. In Skyrim I very rarely used fast-travel. I actually enjoyed walking from city to city as there were variations in the scenery that made it enjoyable to to look around. And the various caves and whatnot you explored certainly were all build from the same few building blocks, but they were different enough that it didn't get boring.
In Starfield the planets are just dull. Just vast, empty expanses with nothing interesting to look at. And when you do stumble upon something, it's something like an abandoned research tower which will be the exact same - down to the mine placement in front of the door - to the every single other abandoned research tower.
A common criticism of Skyrim was that it was a mile wide and an inch deep. And it almost feels as if Bethesda took that as a compliment and doubled down on it.

It does feel like they forgot the reason people made ten million housing mods, custom settlement mods etc. for Fallout 3 and Skyrim was because the world was a place you wanted to immerse yourself in. Now you can have a custom everything but there's not really any reason to want to. It's bizarre that in FO3/Skyrim etc. there were so many books, terminal entries etc. describing the world and in Starfield I still only have the vaguest idea of the setting after 20 hours.

Anyway... has anyone figured out how the damage/armour system works? I can't see it documented anywhere and Google is useless. Trying to compare the value of semi-auto vs full-auto mods and it's not clear at all. Really, scan should show you the armour rating of your targets too so you can decide on energy vs physical too.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens
Baffled at how many of the perks in this game are just boring quality of life stuff. I’m never going to pick +10m hand scanner range when I could get cool new spaceship parts, but then outpost site discovery is an absolute chore.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Alchenar posted:

It has just dawned on me that a low-key improvement they finally made is that shopkeepers don't all lock up and go home for half the day. Also everyone doesn't have their own home. Finally dropping that attempt to 1:1 model everything makes settlements finally feel far more real and lived in because it's less obvious how absurdly small they actually are.

If they had multiple shopkeepers who rotated to cover 24/7, sure - or vending machines or robots out of hours. Currently it just ends up being weird that people have houses, toilets, kitchens they never use. You can walk behind the counter and loot their storeroom and they don’t move a muscle.

They’ve effectively gone for the midpoint between Mass Effect’s “It’s always daytime and you can only visit key locations” and their traditional full world, and it’s pretty jarring.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

heard u like girls posted:

Surprisingly enough the companions seem to be tough enough to not get killed instantly in combat. Either they are just tough enough to not die immediately like general NPC's, or they are governed by a different system.
They’re Protected, so if they take lethal damage from anyone other than you they just go into down mode for a while then get back up. Can’t remember if it’s 20 or 30 seconds.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

infernal machines posted:

The game absolutely loves to pop you out into a hard vacuum in your skivvies rather than just land your ship on a planet you've visited before. The map/fast travel system is hilarious

I built an outpost with a landing pad a few km from New Atlantis, except my ship doesn’t actually land there. So I’m landing at NA spaceport and walking? Then it moves if I use the shipbuilder, but not if I fast travel to NA from the outpost, so I’m walking there again…

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens
In case anyone else has been frustrated by it: Scrap Vacuum Tape For Adhesives. Since Fallout has finely-tuned my senses for scavenging rolls of tape.

staberind posted:

its basically an even more nihilist Fallout 4; all that work you did? all that scanning and building and walking and tal;king and missions? meaningless. do on, doo it again.

how can ye have ene starborn if ye dunt et ye meet?
The NG+ stuff is so frustrating because of just... infinity. Sure the Emissary can control who enters the Unity so the 'wrong' people don't, but there's an infinite number of universes where they fail and so an infinite number of un-approved starborn wandering around. A more interesting split would have been "Focus on using the powers of the Unity to help the Universe you are currently in (because anything else is meaningless as you can't reduce the suffering in other universes as there's an infinite number of suffering ones regardless)" vs "Focus on using the powers of the Unity to help yourself (because anything else is meaningless as there's an infinite number of suffering universes so nothing matters beyond your personal experience)".

Talkie Toaster fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Nov 6, 2023

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens
…Vortex search, wtf. I searched “Scrap vacuum tape for adhesives” before making that, I guess nobody else used the word ‘scrap’.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Sandepande posted:

They could have made it so thst you can go in, but cannot pilot one until NG+.

Edit: also, does Starfield have any rivers? If not, the Citizens win!

There’s a *tiny* handful. It’s really weird given just how good the rivers were in Skyrim.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Sandepande posted:

Starfield's procgen only applies to the terrain and POI placement - in some sense unfortunately, because having procgen applied to the placement of coffee cups would have been an improvement.

I do wonder why there's so little of the handcrafted stuff.
It feels like the tech was in flux until so late they didn’t have time for actual mapping/questing. Which is sort of perverse, as they could’ve effectively built half of that using the FO4 CK and written tools to port it across. I mean… what were the quest/map teams doing whilst waiting? I guess working on FO76/TES:O?

Weirdly the game Starfield reminds me the most of is Planetary Annihilation. A Total Annihilation spiritual successor but with land/sea/air/orbital combat on a solar system of full spherical planets. They spent ages on the engine and built a technical masterpiece, but it turned out the actual basic idea wasn’t fun. What do you do then, after sinking years of dev time into discovering the premise was bad?

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Ugly In The Morning posted:

But regardless of your opinion of the UC itself, it really is the only quest line that has any broader stakes and that it seems like anyone gave even the tiniest poo poo about.
The Crimson Fleet line was second place, pretty interesting stakes.

It’s just weird that none of the factions were really likeable or interesting to drive you to want to do their quests. UC are authoritarian technocrats like the Brotherhood of Steel but without any of their quirks, but at least their faction quests are proactive ones that change the state of the galaxy. Freestar and Ryujin are just different flavours of oligarchy whose quests are deckchair rearranging.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Regarde Aduck posted:

in the space future there is only neoliberalism and in a way it's a very realistic portrayal of the absolute lack of soul in anything, a feeling of emptiness
Are any of the factions even democratic? UNC has a president who *could* be elected by Citizens but we don’t get told that. Did Von Mises write the design doc or something?

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

fat bossy gerbil posted:

The thing that makes this game so awful is how boring the actual content is.
It's so weird that they just ignored all the potentially interesting bits of their own setting. Like, the UC absolutely has a Black Ops division that knows Artefact experiments destroyed Earth. That then explains their obsession with research, and authoritarianism - both to prevent it happening again, and to prevent people learning that the space exploration program that 'saved' mankind was the same thing that doomed it.. Freestar are supposed to have been founded by reckless independents who wanted to colonise the galaxy free from central control, but in-game they're just 3 very inwards-looking planets.

The campaign should absolutely have been the hippy-dippy space explorers of Constellation blundering into a shadow war between UC Black Ops and a mess of GenerDyne Skunkworks teams/gold-rush prospectors/stubborn colonists all united by the fact that messing with them means picking a fight with Freestar. Then when the Starborn turn up, you have a dynamic situation between the two factions that can escalate or serve as a way to unite them, secrets that can be revealed, all sorts of potential.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Cyrano4747 posted:

What's even better is when you have weapons that are not missiles still "locking on" - EMP weapons in the 3rds lot do this.

I have no idea if the lock on makes my ship disable bolt track better or what, but I still have that lock on queue.
It’s for Space VATS. You unlock it with a skill point, once you’re locked on you can trigger it for a window of slow time where you can auto-target specific modules.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Ugly In The Morning posted:

The grav drives being basically teleportation with no drawbacks (except that one time) breaks the setting anyway. There’s no travel time, ships are able to basically do it and immediately be combat ready, and max range is basically arbitrary. Why would the UC and Freestar even go to war yet when there’s still worlds full of stuff they can take much cheaper? Even the “three systems per faction” thing makes no sense when travel puts dozens of systems in trivial reach.
Right, if you have limitless space and resources your capacity to use them (in population and technology) determines your power. The setting even has sentient AI and the UC has a cloning program, but they’re introduced in wacky side missions and ignored. Why didn’t they fight over e.g. the UC trying to clone a vast population advantage from its stocks of genetic material rescued from Earth?

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Tankbuster posted:

you can definitely do goofy first person animations for this. They probably didn't want to make it for just one scene.
Yeah the game absolutely has the capacity for it, if they’re running a script to pop up a dialogue box it can run `playidle` to trigger an animation. Very little wrong with Starfield is down to the engine, they intentionally choose not to use half of its features.
(The fact they didn’t set up store backrooms as trespass zones the owner would warn you for entering is *truly* bizarre)

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Philippe posted:

It's a game that knew what resources it was working with and stuck to them. Yeah the NPCs all kinda look stiff and were clearly made in the character creator, and the KOTOR-style world doesn't always work, but dammit it's a game that tries to Say Something, the guns feel meaningfully different, and there aren't seventy different styles of bullet you need to keep track of.

It's also maybe the fourth or fifth most Fallout thing in existence.
I'm not so sure about it Saying Something, it pulls a lot of punches and ends up with a vague "Executives are selfish and short-sighted, all non-corporate alternatives are either psychos or useless" theme. Still a lot better written and more fun though.

Still, the weapon damage types in it actually meant something. Really baffling that Starfield has the big kinetic/energy/EM split and then almost nobody uses EM weapons, and it's almost impossible to tell what armour enemies have and the overcomplicated damage formula would still make it impossible to gauge effectiveness even if you did know. Was there a perk under Scanning or something that I missed, that made carting around energy and kinetic weapons meaningful?

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

chaosapiant posted:

It was called “radiant quests” in Skyrim and later games, so you’re not entirely wrong.

Related but different. Radiant AI was instead of saying “Sit in this chair and eat this apple” you just say “Eat” and they find a random food and chair in their location.

Radiant Quests were added in Skyrim, where instead of saying “The prisoner is in this bandit hideout” it finds a random bandit hideout you haven’t yet visited and puts the prisoner there.

Starfield’s mission boards are all Radiant Quests. As are the “Buy the book from $SHOP”, “Collect from the debtor in $SHACK”.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Tiny Timbs posted:

I genuinely felt really sad when I checked on a post asking if people liked setting up their armory displays in their ships and most of the responses were folks saying they tried really hard but the items kept disappearing permanently or ending up in the cargo hold so they gave up

Yeah, their socials are really depressing as they clearly planned a huge campaign on the assumption there’d be a big fandom keen to share their fan art of Your Robot Buddy Vasco and cheer for Constellation-branded merch. But it’s just an awkward series of engagement prompts to a non-existant community interspersed with clearly well-paid influencer stuff like “Wow look at Joe Smith’s custom 3d printed Vasco with motors!” that stands out all the more dramatically because there’s no organic stuff.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Cyrano4747 posted:

From that standpoint I'd say that there is no price where playing this makes sense. It's so mediocre and bland that it's not worth your time at free. Grab any one of the incredible bangers that dropped last year. If you're looking specifically for the Bethesda first person RPG experience I'd argue that modded Skyrim is still going to be a better use of your time than this.
Yeah, in a post-Baldur’s Gate 3 world it’s really hard to argue for Starfield. A single run is 80+ hours of interesting writing and meaningful choices, and you could realistically do several substantially different ones. It loses on value, writing, worldbuilding, replayability, everything.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

isndl posted:

Skyrim was late with the Creation Kit launch and they didn't have any particular mod scene aspirations at the time. They didn't even have Steam Workshop integration until a later update as I recall.

My guess is they really do need the time to bugfix the CK, because the devs probably have been using workarounds for tons of issues for expediency but they can't dump those on users. I also have a vague recollection of the CK also needing to be sanitized of middleware that Bethesda isn't licensed to redistribute (the face morphing stuff for facial animations?) but it's been a long time and I may be getting the details wrong.

Yeah if the CK is especially janky and buggy this time round it would explain the long delay and also why the game is such a mess. Like, the game is missing a *lot* of stuff that should be trivial to do in the CK. Wouldn’t be surprised if they kept changing the engine, how procgen worked, how ships were built etc. until very late and so the CK was constantly broken.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Panzeh posted:

Not really- it honestly has to do with what we've got well-developed mechanics for as an industry. We can't really gamify the other stuff that much, so violence is where it lives. Games have absolutely tried to critique the ultraviolence they've engaged in, especially RPGS, but it just comes off as unwelcome when your options to do anything else amount to CYOA paragraph-games.

It’s interesting as P&P rpgs have some good structured social mechanics (Genesys comes to mind) but they kind of rely on having a GM who can arbitrate things.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Ursine Catastrophe posted:

And that said, I also don't disagree that they probably should pick a lane and stick to one direction or the other-- either it's a player skill check like in Skyrim where your character stats don't really matter if you're good at it, or it's a character skill check where it succeeds or fails by interacting with it and doesn't gently caress you around with a minigame
The obvious midpoint though is “auto-succeed anything lower than your skill level, auto-fail anything above, only do the minigame for things your level”. It’s so odd they force you to do the easy ones you can do trivially over and over again.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

webmeister posted:

To be honest I reckon they should ditch the packrat aspect of their games.

Yeah it's funny to pick up every half-eaten sandwich and desk fan you can find, but what's the point? You've got limited carry weight, you've got (kinda) limited cargo storage, the inventory is a pain the arse to manage already, and even if you pick up valuable stuff, most vendors don't have enough cash to buy it. Which leads to the engaging gameplay of sleeping on a nearby bench for 48 hours so they can restock their cash. I know it's a Bethesda trademark, but like .. who cares? Especially if it's loving up the engine and the rest of the game.
I don’t think it is loving up the game, though? They just don’t utilise it. Like, the big advantage of Bethesda’s heavy NPC simulation over the Mass Effect style of “Eternally 2pm, everyone always standing at their desk” is how much interesting emergent gameplay you can get.

In Oblivion/Skyrim if you needed to murder someone you could sneak into their house at night, steal all their food, and pickpocket a poisoned apple into their inventory. Then when they wake up and try to eat breakfast it kills them. You could sneak into places during gaps in the guard schedule at a given time of day, or hang out at the bar in the evening to hear gossip. You could track someone walking out to their secret stash and trigger dialogue if you’d emptied it. Starfield almost certainly still supports all that, but doesn’t use it. I’d much rather have more quests leveraging the unique aspects of the engine than have them cut for a minor performance gain.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Flowing Thot posted:

Yeah people don't have schedules in Starfield.

Apart from the 3 office workers on Mars who go to happy hour at the bar then immediately back to the office, proving that the game can still do it and Beth chose not to.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

webmeister posted:

Yeah after reading that article, this is basically the crux of it. The studio is too big, the project is too unwieldy, nobody really has an overall creative vision. So all of these teams are putting together siloed components that don't even remotely fit together in a cohesive way.

The videogame equivalent of hoping to build a Ferrari and ending up with a Homermobile

The ‘best’ outcome for the Stroud-Eklund quest happening when you persuade them to max the budget and try to do everything all at once certainly makes more sense.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Old Doggy Bastard posted:

- Guy with a cowboy hat, ex-wife, and daughter. White, tan, and bearded. He takes you to the New Vegas post-apocalyptic settlement on a Western planet..
It’s amazing how dedicated they were to just not exploring the setting. Sam’s story touches on the tension in how Akila’s self-image as bold pioneers is at odds with their stagnation into a new aristocracy… and then just ignores it. Daddy issues, babymomma drama, he doesn’t want to settle down, nothing that really meaningfully interacts with the setting. Just Find->Replace spaceship for horse or car and it could be anywhere.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

dogstile posted:

"Hollywood didn't survive the expansion so everyone just watches the same 100 movies over and over again, the accent remains due to this".

Ez

That was their excuse for the books, even! Everyone just saved the classics so that’s all there is.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Cyrano4747 posted:

I think it depends on the cell. It's been a while since I looked into what constituted safe storage in Skyrim et al but I'm pretty sure there were specific player homes in Skyrim at least where poo poo left on tables wouldn't despawn.

50/50 chance that I'm remember a change made by a mod, though.

Yeah I’m pretty sure there’s a “Don’t Respawn” cell flag, and anything tagged as Persistent or Quest wouldn’t get reset anyway.

Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Alchenar posted:

It's literally in the text https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx_5PmTC3RANzShTPfjQsviqSry8BK2VC1?si=ulHa_JBUPY6gTYsY

Caesar looks at the camera and says 'I am turbo hitler. I love fascism and the only thing I care about is making sure there is more fascism in the world'. And still people manage to go 'well there are some upsides to the legion'.

He’s basically Jordan Peterson, intellectualising submitting to a harsh far-right creed as a way to add meaning and structure to your life. I guess it’s not surprising some people fall for it.

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Talkie Toaster
Jan 23, 2006
May contain carcinogens

Alchenar posted:

I mean the reason to redo perks would be to get rid of all that gateway bullshit.

I dunno, perks as ways to unlock mechanics that give you new types of gameplay (e.g. jetpacks, capital ships, manufacturing) are neat. The problem is that the perks they made don't do that. Some of the mechanics though the game was clearly built around (e.g. jetpacks), so unlocking them is just a tax. Some don't actually meaningfully change gameplay (e.g. Class C ships behave exactly like Class A), so the perk feels pointless. Others just don't plug into the rest of the game at all (e.g. the only reason to do manufacturing is to get the components to build more factories). Even weapon modification is effectively just a "+20% damage" perk with extra steps.

If e.g. manufacturing let you build robot followers to help in combat, or drone fighters to aid you in space combat, then it'd feel like taking them meaningfully changed your game. Or Class C ships were really slow and worked around turrets and long-charge spinal weapons. Anything that let you approach the challenges in the game differently.

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