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Oh wow I've been researching the 16th century recently for other reasons, this is *amazing*. I cannot wait. The only other game I have that's explicitly set then is Astrologaster and that's set in London.
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Jun 17, 2022 19:32
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Dick Burglar posted:I know you said you've had the idea to make this game for like a decade, but how long ago did the game actually start spinning up to be made? I guess that should be phrased as "when did pre-production begin?" Did you pitch it before you'd finished working on Deadfire? I'm assuming yes, but I also have next to no idea how game production works so Amniotic posted:Along the same lines, I'm curious about inspiration, games, films, books, etc. Games: the aforementioned Night in the Woods, Oxenfree, Mutazione for overall gameplay style. Films: The Name of the Rose (film and recent series, though the series... has issues), Andrei Rublev, Le Retour de Martin Guerre (the film for which the author of the book served as a consultant), The Mill and the Cross (the film of the book of the painting The Procession to Calvary), many others.
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Jun 17, 2022 23:35
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That's really cool. Foucault's Pendulum and Name of the Rose are personal favorites. Menocchio looks like a fascinating person. I don't know this period of history very well, but it seems like the vernacular bible and the reformation uncorked an explosion of idiosyncratic heresies.
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Jun 18, 2022 01:25
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Looking forward to bumbling into heresy and getting killed.
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Jun 18, 2022 20:39
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A Sometimes Food posted:Looking forward to bumbling into heresy and getting killed. A lot of heresy in this period boils down to whether you respect papal authority, and thus the delegated authority of the cardinals etc. That's a whole chain of powerful landowners who aren't amused by the idea that they don't have the right to collect taxes, with a lot of other people very interested in removing their ability to collect taxes. It gets really bad.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:08
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If I dont get to watch an argument over whether or not Jesus ever laughed, and thus an argument over whether laughter is unholy or divine, I'll be sad.
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Jun 19, 2022 18:39
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wiegieman posted:A lot of heresy in this period boils down to whether you respect papal authority, and thus the delegated authority of the cardinals etc. That's a whole chain of powerful landowners who aren't amused by the idea that they don't have the right to collect taxes, with a lot of other people very interested in removing their ability to collect taxes. Always wondered if this is a later cynical reinterpretation. You know, like Marxist interpretation of everything being about economic relations. All the prominent heresies and theological debates I've heard about do indeed lead to the question of who should rule. Did people at the time thought so too? I don't know.
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Jun 19, 2022 19:31
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ilitarist posted:Always wondered if this is a later cynical reinterpretation. You know, like Marxist interpretation of everything being about economic relations. All the prominent heresies and theological debates I've heard about do indeed lead to the question of who should rule. Did people at the time thought so too? I don't know. It is impossible to separate the issues of religious morality and secular realpolitik when it comes to the Catholic Church. Heck, for about a hundred years the Curia was virtually an arm of French foreign policy, and the pope didn't even live in Rome. They had an antipapacy after it! Two schisms! It's wild. Neither the purely secular view of the Church as a collection of landed nobility playing politics on behalf of a supranational organization nor the purely religious view of the various heresies as a reaction to the Church's endemic corruption problems are correct (the word "nepotism" was literally coined to describe the practice of Popes making their nephews Cardinals.) That said, I think the secular view is least wrong. It's undeniable that the lords of the Church both clashed with and worked with the kings and Emperors (big E, the HRE in this case) of Europe, and that as centralization of power increased the temporal rulers became less and less accepting of the Church's international power.
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Jun 19, 2022 21:50
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ilitarist posted:Always wondered if this is a later cynical reinterpretation. You know, like Marxist interpretation of everything being about economic relations. All the prominent heresies and theological debates I've heard about do indeed lead to the question of who should rule. Did people at the time thought so too? I don't know. It's not so much that people didn't earnestly believe the various "heresies," it's just that absent economic upheaval/mass deracination of peoples, most people wouldn't think to challenge their received metaphysical knowledge. Outside of a few philosophically inclined weirdos, most people don't think about their religion much unless there is some benefit to doing so, as the charismatic leaders of protest religions often claim in inegalitarian societies. Motivated reasoning still feels like a valid reason, from the inside. The same sort of thing happened a lot in South and East Asia over the centuries too, with various Daoist/Buddhist sects flourishing during times of unrest (the reprisals against these sects often feeding back into the unrest, creating a vicious cycle).
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Jun 19, 2022 23:33
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any bicycling in this?
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Jun 19, 2022 23:35
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Cavauro posted:any bicycling in this? The game takes place hundreds of years before the bicycle existed, so gonna go with no?
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Jun 19, 2022 23:39
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big mistake
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Jun 19, 2022 23:44
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it appears there could be a mystery to solve involving a hobby horse with wheels on it? what is this contraption? we can't let this get out during these times. it has to wait. unless you can change fate
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Jun 20, 2022 00:01
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quote:“One of the key things in the game is that we do not ever definitively tell you, canonically, [who] the murderer [is],” Sawyer explains. “You have to investigate, find as much evidence as you can. You make your decisions based on whatever you think is most important. You are basically deciding who's going to pay for the crime. That can be the person that you think actually did it. That can be the person that you think should be punished, whether or not they did it. Maybe it's the person you like least. Maybe it's the person you think that the community will miss the least.” Can I blame God or Satan
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Jun 20, 2022 00:17
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Cavauro posted:any bicycling in this? No. Big mistake by rope kid imo
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Jun 20, 2022 00:25
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quote:“One of the key things in the game is that we do not ever definitively tell you, canonically, [who] the murderer [is],” Sawyer explains. “You have to investigate, find as much evidence as you can. You make your decisions based on whatever you think is most important. You are basically deciding who's going to pay for the crime. That can be the person that you think actually did it. That can be the person that you think should be punished, whether or not they did it. Maybe it's the person you like least. Maybe it's the person you think that the community will miss the least.
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Jun 20, 2022 00:26
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whoever is the richest person in the game, is the person i will accuse
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Jun 20, 2022 00:30
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I'm here for the arc where andreas gets really into pocket watches, invented circa 1500. Coincidence, I think not
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Jun 20, 2022 00:45
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DJ_Mindboggler posted:It's not so much that people didn't earnestly believe the various "heresies," it's just that absent economic upheaval/mass deracination of peoples, most people wouldn't think to challenge their received metaphysical knowledge. Outside of a few philosophically inclined weirdos, most people don't think about their religion much unless there is some benefit to doing so, as the charismatic leaders of protest religions often claim in inegalitarian societies. Motivated reasoning still feels like a valid reason, from the inside. I think your perhaps understating how invested laymen could be in religious matters; for a genuine believer not only is their immortal soul at stake, but incorrect worship could also invite ruin in the temporal world as well. Plenty of monarchs were invested in regulating church matters beyond the more immediately profitable issues of disputing tithes and cracking down on simony. On the other end of the spectrum, the prevalence of folk religion would indicate that large parts of the commons were invested in spiritual matters enough to start improvising their own additions to religious doctrine.
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Jun 20, 2022 01:27
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*As I leave the estate of a local burgher who thinks I'm a fool I wheel around in my worn wool cloak, smoking a pipe* "Prithee, I've one final matter...." Renaissance Columbo this game is gonna own
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Jun 20, 2022 01:30
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Yeah unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise I feel pretty solid believing that people generally believed their own religion. Sure some people didnt and manipulated it or rationalized why the written scripture didnt apply to them or whatever, but still probably believed it.
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Jun 20, 2022 01:46
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Vagabong posted:I think your perhaps understating how invested laymen could be in religious matters; for a genuine believer not only is their immortal soul at stake, but incorrect worship could also invite ruin in the temporal world as well. Plenty of monarchs were invested in regulating church matters beyond the more immediately profitable issues of disputing tithes and cracking down on simony. On the other end of the spectrum, the prevalence of folk religion would indicate that large parts of the commons were invested in spiritual matters enough to start improvising their own additions to religious doctrine. Interest in religion isn't the same thing as interest in changing religions. Of course the faithful would be quite invested in performing various rites correctly, even more so in the past when the rites where actually thought potent. I'm saying that innovations and heresies are borne either of necessity ("hey, this dietary law no longer makes sense for our subpopulation.") or protest ("hey, the king* is taxing us into starvation, and all the clergy does is carry water for him, etc".) While any person may speculate on the finer points of doctrine, to accept the social stigma and very real danger of openly practicing heterodox religion would require some outside impetus. And yes, I'm being a bit uncharitable when I call their newfound faith motivated reasoning, but it literally is. *More likely a baron or local equivalent DJ_Mindboggler fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 01:50
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Why would you tell people before the game is out that you can't properly solve the murder central to the game
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Jun 20, 2022 02:10
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Why would you tell people before the game is out that you can't properly solve the murder central to the game Because otherwise I'd think you could and that would color my enjoyment of it thinking I was missing something
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Jun 20, 2022 02:12
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possibly the quibble is the idea of "outside impetus" - that pre-modern people are picking and choosing their religion like membership in a formal club, when their faith is a) probably more integrated into their fundamental understanding of the world, society and themselves and b) more descriptive than prescriptive, with some degree of latitude in regional practice and tradition, subject to continual push and pull from various authorities and stakeholders
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Jun 20, 2022 02:16
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also obviously the murder is just a seconday subplot to the conspiracy to prevent the invention of a bi-wheeled self-propelled mechanical vehicle - heretical by its very nature, for the Christ himself rode an rear end and not a device
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Jun 20, 2022 02:19
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Why would you tell people before the game is out that you can't properly solve the murder central to the game Have they said you can't solve it? Sounds like they just won't let you know if you got it right or not.
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Jun 20, 2022 02:19
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Ratios and Tendency posted:Why would you tell people before the game is out that you can't properly solve the murder central to the game The way I read it, you can but the game and devs just won't tell you you did.
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Jun 20, 2022 02:25
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Khanstant posted:whoever is the richest person in the game, is the person i will accuse J'Accuse…!
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Jun 20, 2022 02:27
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Lt. Danger posted:possibly the quibble is the idea of "outside impetus" - that pre-modern people are picking and choosing their religion like membership in a formal club, when their faith is a) probably more integrated into their fundamental understanding of the world, society and themselves and b) more descriptive than prescriptive, with some degree of latitude in regional practice and tradition, subject to continual push and pull from various authorities and stakeholders Both of those points are right, but I'm not sure there's disagreement here. During the first century C.E., there were dozens of messianic cults in the Mediterranean world with wildly different cosmologies and metaphysics, and people converted to them in droves, so clearly pre-modern people were willing to amend their fundamental understanding. The shift from incremental salvation in most Hindu beliefs vs. the possibility of jumping straight to enlightenment in Buddhism is similarly a pretty significant change in one's understanding of one's place in the universe (and an obviously self-serving one at that). Your second point is the condition I referred to as "necessity" such as the case of, say, beavers being considered fish for Catholic purposes in America.
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Jun 20, 2022 02:34
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Wicked Them Beats posted:Have they said you can't solve it? Sounds like they just won't let you know if you got it right or not.
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Jun 20, 2022 02:54
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Here's hoping my rapscallion-orator can aggressively tell people that we live in a society and should improve it somewhat.
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Jun 20, 2022 04:50
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They've said the game won't tell you if there's bicycles or not
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Jun 20, 2022 04:59
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Feels Villeneuve posted:No. Big mistake by rope kid imo We have to wait for his next game before we can restore vintage bicycle parts and lose reputation points for choosing indexed shifting over friction shifters.
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Jun 20, 2022 04:59
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Can't wait to see the boats
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Jun 20, 2022 05:04
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rope kid posted:Correct. It’s not a logic puzzle with a singular solution. In the sense that there’s not enough evidence to definitively say or…? Like, does the writing team know whodunnit or no. Are we talking about variable scenarios where the killer might be someone different?
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Jun 20, 2022 05:12
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I think it's more that there's going to be conflicting evidence you can learn from having different backgrounds you can choose.
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Jun 20, 2022 05:32
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I'd guess that the events that resulted in the death of the person are not so simple as "a killed b with y in z." The interesting question won't be so much as what happened to cause the living body to cease functioning, so much as the totality of circumstances to arrive at that point, why, to what end, to whose benefit & at whose expense, compounded by knowledge of the political/social/cultural relationships at play. Unless the game just lets you goofily accuse arbitrary NPCS with or without discovered knowledge to point to, I'd guess this scenario will be such that many different individuals or institutions are all reasonably culpable depending on your perspective, sense of justice/ethics/morality, and priorities.
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Jun 20, 2022 05:33
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Khanstant posted:this scenario will be such that many different individuals or institutions are all reasonably culpable depending on your perspective, sense of justice/ethics/morality, and priorities. E: As for, "Why tell people this?" Some players enjoy games where you solve logic puzzles and methodically narrow down means/motive/opportunity and exclude suspects one at a time until you arrive at The Answer. That isn't what this game is, mechanically or narratively. I'd rather have people say, "Ah, okay, not for me," than get it thinking it's going to be something else. rope kid fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Jun 20, 2022 |
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Jun 20, 2022 06:40
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Personally, I'm looking forward to the fools in this game in motley, being a fool pure of heart, being fooled by those who seek to deceive and being taken for a cretinous fool not letting on I know more than apparent......
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Jun 20, 2022 08:35
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