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Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
you can restrict car ownership by a number of criteria, I personally like to restrict them to college-educated citizens with high government loyalty and use them as a means to ensure that the schools, the most important buildings in the republic, remain fully staffed at all times. illiterate citizens can't work, and having elite teams of roving educators that can and will just drive out to any nearby school with a vacancy is pretty drat handy.

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Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
my impression from the Terra Invicta demo was that they were trying to make two distinct games, couldn't settle on which one to make, and decided to just attempt both, with the result being a thing less than the sum of its parts.

the idea of playing essentially an Illuminati-style secret conspiracy manipulating governments from the shadows, and competing with other shadowy conspiracies to do the same, is really neat in principle and could easily be its own game. In Terra Invicta that part of the game has one function, and that's to get enough Boost to get into space and supply you with the resources to get your first shipyard and mining station built. Once you do that you can abandon Earth entirely, it no longer serves any purpose and you transition into the other game, a space 4x which doesn't interact with the Earth game much at all.

the geopolitics simulation is also extremely simple and basic when you really drill down and look at it in detail, they just try to obfuscate its lack of depth with extreme breadth. there are a shitload of numbers and stats but not really a ton going on with them, they only influence each other in very simplistic ways and the end result feels less like a simulation and more like a very obtuse board game. there's also not really any simulation of economy, logistics, or supply chain at all, which is a glaring omission in a game about modern geopolitics, and also makes attempting to build a power base in poorer countries in the Global South a pointless waste of time and effort, because controlling all of Africa combined won't net you the kind of resources you could get by taking a couple European countries or gaining partial control of the US. the big rich developed countries just magically have more money and resources than the poorer underdeveloped ones and the game treats that as an inherent quality of those specific states, that is not influenced by anything else happening outside of those states.

it's a shame, because if you cheated and modded the demo to skip past the Earth stuff and get to the other game, where you're building stations and outposts and trying to combat an aggressive alien force expanding through the solar system, it's actually pretty good! they should have just made that game!

Mister Bates has issued a correction as of 20:01 on Sep 23, 2022

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Lostconfused posted:

The real problem with DLC is that they need to tear off the bandaid and make a new game sometime.

HoI IV is definitely too old, the engine fork they use is ancient. Also a bunch of new systems they added should probably be reworked so they fit together better, and focus trees too.

But it's just not going to happen because of all the work that went into it already, so instead they take the halfway step of putting out another expansion pack making the mess even bigger.

Cities Skylines is another victim of this, the DLC feature bloat is getting pretty extreme and all the new systems are just kind of bolted on to the base game, each one more poorly integrated than the last; trying to play with all of them is a total mess. They should have bit the bullet and moved some of this poo poo over to a sequel, but instead Paradox just has them continuously cramming more poo poo into a game that's already straining under the added weight

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Danann posted:

always obliterate the landlords

and in the game, too

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Weembles posted:

No.

Seriously, though - what happened was that I started my welfare state too early and my peasant and unemployed populations grew at a faster rate than I could grow the economy.

Since my commie-fascist goverment was so popular, all the intrest groups that would agree to lower the welfare system to a cheaper law were marginalized. All I could so was watch the debt pile up until I was permanently bankrupt.

You need to be thoroughly industrialized before transitioning to a worker state. This is not a game for Maoists, it turns out.

my agrarian Communist Haiti did just fine



when the Rural Folk interest group first turned communist, the Trade Unions interest group was basically nonexistent, had like 2% clout I think. I based my economy on extremely lucrative cash-crop production (my Haiti is one of the top producers of tobacco and rubber in the entire world), and was able to use that money to industrialize in earnest once going over to Council Republic/Command Economy

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
yeah if the intent of this new war system is to reduce micromanagement then it is a complete failure

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

HerraS posted:

No, because by 1836 any chance of that ever happening has been lost

no but we did have a couple serious opportunities to at least maintain an independent state somewhere in North America and even won a couple wars here and there, and you can at least do that, I think it’s going to be my next thing I try after this Haiti game


Orange Devil posted:

Well gently caress I just had the same thing happen to me.

Though my welfare state consists only of Poor Laws and some Worker Protections (which drive up minimum wage). Combined with Multiculturalism and Complete Seperation of Church and State though it means loving tens of millions of people are migrating to me and they all end up peasants or unemployed as I cannot physically build jobs faster than they migrate. Meanwhile my pops that are in employment are enjoying a hugely high standard of living and great wages due to a combination of said Worker Protections plus lots of trade with which I am basically supplying the whole world with the commodities they are producing. This means the gap between the unemployed and the employed is so large that the welfare payments, even with only 1 level of Poor Laws (the shittiest welfare law supported by the Industrialists, of all people, because it politically neuters the unemployed) bankrupt my state, preventing further construction of new jobs. It's basically a hard-locked fail-state with no way out.

Theoretically I could abolish Poor Laws but the only interest group in favor of No Welfare is the landlords, and they are a marginal group on account of having enclosed most of the land and abolished all the laws that multiply their power. So I can't get them in government, so I can't change the law to less welfare, only more. So game over. Even though I am #1 in every category (GDP, GDP/cap, SOL, Literacy) except population where I am #2 (lol China). Welp.

If I had no welfare payments I'd be 500K in the green per week. I guess the lesson here is to either keep the borders closed and only create a utopia for your own people, or have absolutely no welfare whatsoever until you create enough employment for the majority of all of humanity.

The inciting incident to this failure was passing Women's Suffrage, which also entails women in the workplace. They all ended up unemployed because I was already falling behind on keeping up with the migrant influx.

This is also now happening to me in my Haiti game, I eventually annexed Cuba just because it was almost completely undeveloped and I could turn all the empty space into jobs to occupy the literal millions of immigrants sitting around. I am going to have to expand even further to keep up with population growth, I have nearly 10 million people crammed onto Hispaniola.

I think the problem is mostly that, because the AI is very poor at development, the average standard of living remains very low everywhere, so there are swarms of people desperate to move on to greener pastures. In particular the United States is getting absolutely drained in my game, with significant Yankee population immigrating back to England, Dixie migrants fleeing to Austria en masse, and African Americans going to Haiti in droves. The US actually won pretty much all the territory it had historically, also took large parts of Canada and Mexico, and never even had a civil war or anything, but it’s an impoverished irrelevant afterthought anyway. I’m currently putting together a coalition as Haiti with the aim of invading them to abolish slavery, the massive army and navy I’m making to do that is giving my unemployed people something to do.

Mister Bates has issued a correction as of 21:10 on Nov 1, 2022

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
There is a slightly ahistorical but playable Indian Territory which starts as a US puppet, also playable Hawaii and playable Miskito Kingdom (which starts as a British puppet).

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
all glory to the mysterious Immortal Comrade of El Salvador

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Zeppelin Insanity posted:

I haven't played a lot of them, but off the top of my head I found the AI in Shadow Empires very challenging. Sure, it probably cheated since it tended to have a much larger and better equipped army than I could support, but I found it to be very merciless in exploiting gaps and missteps for example.

It might not be absolutely good, but relative to, like, Civ and Total War and Paradox games I think its night and day.

Shadow Empire’s AI cheats like absolute mad and there are entire game systems it basically doesn’t have to engage with at all (it uses an extremely simplified version of the logistics system, for example, and it can’t build new cities at all). It’s a pretty good wargame AI but the only way to make it work in such a complex game was to just have it play a completely different game from what the human player sees.

If you like it, you should also try his Decisive Campaigns games. Shadow Empire is built off of those, and they have similarly decent tactical AI.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
GalCiv 2 had a very funny mechanic where your population's growth rate was inversely proportional to the tax rate, so the less you taxed your people the more they hosed

also the way ground combat worked was that you just grabbed a bunch of people directly from the civilian population of a planet and dropped them on another planet, where they fought against the defenders' civilian population until one side or the other was dead, which had the effect of making any civ with the Super Breeders trait almost invincible in ground combat, especially on the defense. they'd reproduce so prolifically at 0% tax rates that you could almost completely annihilate them and they'd be back to outnumbering you within weeks.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
On the Western Front remains the best WW1 strategy game I have ever played, although it is also a borderline incomprehensible nightmare in which your main enemy is not the Bosch but the interface

still, we're all grogs here, and it's only 10 bucks, really worth checking out if you have any interest at all in the period

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Frosted Flake posted:

Silent Hunter 4 with the recent mods is worth revisiting IMO. The latest Fleet Boat mod (FOTRSU) and U-Boat conversion mods (KSDII, Dark Waters) are very good sub sims and bring the game up almost to modern levels. I wish people were doing this kind of work in U-Boat, because they have everything from Type IIs to IXs in the ETO and then really good simulations of S-Boats through the latest fleet boats in the PTO, pushing the old engine and lack of support from Ubisoft as far as it can go. More relevant to the thread, they simulate the many problems the Germans had with their torpedoes and detonators as well.

Beneath the Med, to me, has the most gripping narrative because it's all new to me. I didn't, still don't really, know anything about the Italian boats, their capabilities, tactics, the ASW they faced. I do know from aforementioned mods, SH5, U-Boat, the Hunted lol that the Med was a death trap for U-Boats, and the Italian boats were often even bigger. As I said I don't have a game going right now but I want to hunt down the book on Regia Marina subs the designer mentions in the notes.

e: SH4, SH5 and U-Boat all have circular running torpedoes, but - as in reality - it's a less than 1 in 100 error. Gyroscopes were just pretty good by 1940. There are far more issues with depth settings and detonators, which was the case.

I'm always torn between the immersiveness of U-Boat and even SH-5 and the better, more detailed, simulation and crew management (even if its a pain in the rear end and they have no personality) in 4. The levels of immersion, crew personalities, things to look at, moving around the sub, in the newer titles give you more to do on patrol though, rather than plotting a zig zag, accelerating time and reading a book while you wait to spot something.

I just want a version of U-Boat where I don’t have to play as the Nazis

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
I am enjoying the Soviet campaign in Dotmod for Cold Waters, although I really wish there was a Soviet option for the 1968 campaign or a China option for the South China Sea campaign. I think EpicMod has both but also a whole lot of people on the Internet are saying it's bad and I shouldn't use it.

I am not a fan at all of the campaign forcing you to start in what is basically a WW2-era German Type VII in 1984 and expecting you to just deal with it, but it's pretty trivial to mod the mod by editing a text file.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
lol one of the top steam reviews for Second Front is an overt Nazi named 'rommelDAK' talking about killing commies

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
SD2's Army General campaigns are really good, and translating the Total War style 'move units around on the strategic map and then fight individual battles on the tactical map' gameplay loop to a lite operational-level wargame is a great idea

Graviteam Tactics did it pretty well too, but it's also much more complicated and takes much longer to play, an engagement in SD is a lot faster and more frenetic and plays more like a traditional RTS compared to GT's Combat Mission style simulationist slugfests

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
one of my favorite childhood gaming memories is still taking a Republican force through a whole-war auto-generated Spanish Civil War campaign in SPWW2 - it doesn't even matter that the scenarios were all random on random maps with no narrative to speak of, the additional context of having carried those little squads of militia and makeshift armored cars and WW1-era tanks through three years of fighting gave the campaign a weight that single disconnected scenarios just can't pull off, even when they are chained together in a narrative.

A Bridge Too Far did it even better, though, and I think I could still play and enjoy the original now if I could consistently get it working. Last Stand Arnhem is perfectly playable but I agree that the new strategic map is actually worse than the old way the campaign was structured.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
huh, while the Bridge Too Far remake on Steam uses the annoying strategic map, the remake of C&C3 on Steam (Cross of Iron) is literally just the original game with a different name and support for higher resolutions

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
trip report on the first operation of the Grand Campaign in the CC3 remaster on Steam, which is now called 'Cross of Iron' for some reason:

still pretty good. It still uses the same linked-maps campaign system as the original, instead of the strategic map in Last Stand Arnhem, and getting to play with both of them side by side in what are otherwise very similar games has reinforced my opinion that the old way of doing it was superior.

the AI is very good at prioritizing my heavy machine guns with its mortar teams but plays extremely cautiously with its tanks, especially notable in this first scenario because the Soviet player will probably be literally unable to afford any anti-tank firepower on the first map, and desperately short on AT firepower on the second map. In both scenarios I was able to hold out against the Germans for several truces before falling back, racking up more and more victory points with each passing engagement, when they could have wiped me off the map easily if they'd just pushed with even one tank. Funnily enough, when they did finally start pushing aggressively with their armor, it was on the third map, when I'd poured all of my points into a single medium tank, which killed a Stug and three tanks with four glorious lucky shots, instantly breaking their back.

I had one precious dushka which inflicted absolute murder on the enemy infantry, despite spending huge portions of the battles stunned and unconscious from mortar near-misses. The AI nearly took them out with mortar fire several times but never quite managed to seal the deal. They did kill the team leader once, and the gunner got promoted to fill his shoes, so the guy with the most kills in the unit isn't even on the gun anymore.

overall the experience still holds up very well and is mostly as good as I remember it being, looking forward to bringing my surviving troops into the defense of Moscow operation.

That having been said, A Bridge Too Far still holds a special place in my heart as one of the first proper real-time strategy games I ever played, and I will still probably come back to Last Stand Arnhem again, warts and all.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
even in the hands of the AI the mortars are way, way more dangerous in 3 than they were in 2, their rate of fire is massively increased, their killing power against infantry out of cover is very high, and units in cover will either be heavily suppressed or stunned and knocked unconscious, which can be devastating if they happen to be under attack by something else at the time.

In practice the AI is not very good at coordinating its pushes and exploiting these openings, and there were multiple times where I won matchups that I definitely would have lost if playing even a novice human player, because the AI did not make the connection 'the heavy machine gun is not firing anymore after that direct mortar hit, I should push now'.

but also the game is 24 years old so I suppose I shouldn't judge it too harshly

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
did they fix the issue where a revolting New Africa still has slavery and a disenfranchised black population resulting in it being functionally the same as the CSA?

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Panama Red posted:

I recently purchased a bundle of Cold War nation sims created by Kremlingames.

There are three titles, each centered around specific countries and time periods: Crisis in the Kremlin (1985-1995 perestroika USSR), Ostalgie (1989-1991 Eastern Europe plus some other socialist minors), and China: Mao's Legacy (1976-1986 post-Cultural Revolution China).

These are indie games so the engine and graphics are more like Hearts of Iron 2 than Hearts of Iron 4. Expect lots of ticking boxes and, while event choices can trigger wars and topple governments, this is only represented by a country on a map changing color. Also, the games are made in Russian and translated into English, but there is a marked improvement from the first game, Crisis. Kremlingames is also known for releasing frequent updates years after the game comes out. Also, the games don't tell you precisely what event choices do, what exactly you need for specific events or options to become available, and so on, requiring some guesswork based on text descriptions and ultimately trial and error. While this makes the game more challenging, once you learn and remember what does what, the games become far easier. The tutorials are barebones and the learning curves are somewhat steep, but there are lots of English guides on Steam plus YouTube videos that will teach you tips and tricks.

If you can get past the sparse presentation and imperfect translations, you get a chance to rewrite history as various communist countries. Want to replace Gorbachev with a hardliner and do a better job reforming the stagnant USSR? You can do that. Want to let the USSR fall and create new, stronger military and economic alliances as the GDR while also developing your own nuclear weapons? You can do that. Want to bully or assassinate Deng Xiaoping and turn China back from the capitalist road? You can do that. There are lots of achievements requiring certain endings that you can hunt for, but like CK2, I sometimes come up with my own goals in my head about what I want to do and go for that and just see where I end up.

The games are now on sale on Steam for around $15: https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/13416/Cold_War_Bundle/

this is very funny because the original Crisis in the Kremlin game was made in the early 1990s by an American Reaganite right-winger and the simulation was tuned so the correct decision was always the liberal or anticommunist one, including deranged poo poo like Boris Yeltsin, one of the most unpopular leaders Russia has had since the fall of the tsars, giving you a massive and permanent approval bonus from 'the People'.

it getting remade by a team of overt communists as left-wing alt hist wish fulfillment (which these games absolutely are, and I love them for it) rules

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
W&R is one of the only city-builders I have ever played where traffic is not abstracted in any way and every single car on the road is a simulated agent that actually needs a clear path to its destination in order to get there (Cities Skylines sort of does this but there's a very low agent limit and also cars that are stuck for too long will disappear and teleport to their destination). if you try to do a car-heavy republic it quickly becomes clear why most city sims don't do this - namely that if you try to simulate traffic realistically it turns into a loving nightmare that makes mass transit look like a vastly superior alternative to personal cars in pretty much every way, and you will spend an inordinate amount of time engineering your road network to try to minimize congestion - minimize, not eliminate, since there will always be congestion somewhere.

It also doesn't abstract fuel - even in something like Skylines with the various traffic management mods that eliminate the teleporting cars and require them to actually drive to their destination, they never have to stop to get gas. Cars in W&R do, and if you have a lot of them that means a lot of gas stations and a lot of infrastructure for moving and storing that fuel.

having to build all of that infrastructure from scratch really drives home how stupid it is, the game is an incredibly effective piece of anti-car propaganda

I usually have a small number of personal cars to ensure that certain high-value buildings are kept operational and the people who work them are kept loyal - mostly doctors and educators, as well as very distant things like rural fire stations that are too isolated to justify a dedicated train route - but basically everyone else is taking a bus/train or walking, because gently caress dealing with literal thousands of automobiles.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

KomradeX posted:

More from GMT



Cuba Libre is a great game but it is very funny that they make the Directorio, a literal, honest-to-god CIA front that for all practical purposes didn't even actually exist after 1957, a fully-playable faction

I get why they did it and it makes total sense from a game design perspective, but it's still amusing how much they had to reach in order to find anything that would work as a fourth player

KomradeX posted:

The art on Order and Oppertunity is hilarious.



Its amazing how some people just were never to update their understanding of Russia

it looks like Putin is strangling Stalin in that picture

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
Every Single Soldier's Afghanistan 2011 game is, in hindsight, accidentally very good at predicting the eventual US defeat there

I don't think they understood the message they were sending with their own game, but that is, again, accidentally a very accurate reflection of the USA's real-life blindness to the failure of the war.

see, it's impossible to ever actually win in any kind of permanent way in that game. Every single village in your area of operations, by default, trends naturally towards supporting the Taliban over time, and preventing them from going over to the TB requires regular, active intervention. Any village that you do not put effort into bringing over to your side will end up supporting the Taliban eventually. The Taliban themselves can never be militarily defeated and are just always there, no matter what you do - you can shoot them, bomb them, clear out their roadside bombs, spot and avoid their ambushes, destroy the locals' poppy fields to try to cut off their funding, but no matter what you do, there's always more of them, and even if you successfully clear and hold an area from them they will always come back eventually if you ever stop covering that area.

eventually you complete the handover and turn the area over to the ANA, and when you do that, the Taliban always launch an offensive. from a gameplay perspective this is basically a test of the player's preparations - a challenge to see how well you have strategized, how good your defenses really are, how well you can play with limited resources and a serious threat. But think about it in real life terms for a second - all that poo poo you have done, to try to secure this region, defeat the Taliban, win 'hearts and minds' or whatever, and no matter how many of them you have killed, they're still able to immediately pounce in force as soon as you show any signs of weakness.

eventually the scenario is over and, if you have scored enough points, you have 'won' - but, like, have you, really? are all of the plates you needed to keep spinning literally up to the moment the scenario ended just going to magically start spinning themselves now that you have arbitrarily declared victory? are the Taliban, who you have never been able to militarily defeat, or even really slow down, up to this point going to just accept defeat and leave now that you have declared the fighting over?

you cannot build anything permanent and the game treats Taliban control as the default, a status quo that will naturally reassert itself if you are not actively working to prevent it, and this is true right up to the very last turn of any given scenario even if you nominally win.

it's so on the nose you might think they did it on purpose, but I am pretty sure it's an accident - to give you an idea of the developers' mindset, they didn't think to have airstrikes on civilian populations negatively effect Hearts and Minds until a bunch of players complained about it after release. by default you could bomb villages as much as you wanted and it wouldn't effect your local support at all, because the devs just did not think of that

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

KomradeX posted:

Do airstikes move zones towards opposition? I know they do in Fire in the Lake, but they only did that starting in the second edition of the game. Talk about ideological blinders.

But yeah that was my take away of the game about a US victory was always just declaring that we won, going home and not caring what happens next. Kind of like what we did to Afghanistan in the 80s

yeah they now move the village you bombed towards the opposition and ding your Hearts and Minds score, which is basically your 'victory' tracker (if it is above 50% at the end of the scenario you 'win', otherwise your lose)

hilariously, because killing Taliban or local militia forces increases your popular support locally, at release, drone-striking Taliban guys hanging out in or next to a village would actually make the US more popular there!

of course, that the developers (themselves including some Afghanistan veterans) thought 'we gain local support by killing people' made sense at all is itself very telling

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Typo posted:

is Victoria 3 worth playing yet

no, and the first major expansion, which will add a bunch of basic features to diplomacy, imperialism, and subject management, systems which currently barely exist in the game, is not due for another year

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
Field of Glory 2 also plugs in to their turn-based grand strategy game Field of Glory Empires, completely replacing that game’s extremely simplified combat system if you own both - instead FoG II starts up, you fight the battle in that, and then you go back to Empires with the result imported. It’s like a groggier, lower-production-values Total War.

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

lobster shirt posted:

i havent played stellaris in like 18 months, is it still fun or did they reimagine the game again and make it stupid

it's still fun and also they reimagined the game again and made it stupid

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

KomradeX posted:

When was the last time Europe acted independently of the wishes of American Empire? We just watched them destroy their domestic economies, and empty their military reserves so we could wage war on Russia. Christ we even blew up the gas pipelines that made the German economy run and they just demurred. Europe is not an independent power in any single way. The exact opposite, they're up on the chopping bloc to keep the American empire running

38 years ago France sent a special operations team to blow up a Greenpeace ship docked in New Zealand because they were angry at Greenpeace for protesting their nuclear tests, sinking it, killing a guy, nearly killing many more people, permanently damaging France-NZ relations even to this day, and also causing damage to US-NZ relations that took years to recover from

basically nothing since then

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

KomradeX posted:

Sinking a Greenpeace ship and slightly damaging inter anglophone relations isn't the same as forging a separate path than what DC has decided

that's true but it's also the closest thing to 'independent action' Europe has taken in decades, notable both in that it happened and also for how weak and meaningless it was

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
France in general has liked to play at being independent from the US power bloc, including symbolically leaving NATO for a while, and even today making attempts to carry out its own colonial ventures in Africa separate from the US instead of just sending a few guys to support US operations like the Brits do

of course, they are still functionally contributing to maintaining US hegemony either way, they just get to feel better about it

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
it is very funny to imagine an alternate universe where Batista's forces and M26J are waging this guerrilla war only for it to get preempted by the loving Mafia rolling in and buying out the entire country

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

The Chad Jihad posted:

Super sperglord Empire at War mod Thrawn's Revenge just had a big update. Thrill at a star wars game where a Tie Fighter is rare and exotic because every random weapon ship and character from every part of a dead setting has been added. I am currently sieging Mon Calamari as the Greater Maldrood, an imperial splinter faction I've never heard of who use red star destroyers

Awakening of the Rebellion has always been my go-to mod, it makes a lot of interesting changes to make the campaign more asymmetric and make the Rebellion play more like guerrillas than a 4X map-painting faction.

The Empire is ridiculously powerful but also ridiculously unmaneuverable, both tactically and strategically, while the Rebellion has a lot of both tactical and strategic mobility. The Rebels have a much faster retreat timer than the Empire in this mod, for example, which encourages hit-and-run actions in which you take out a few targets of opportunity and then jump away. They've also got a bunch of stealth ground units that can both travel undetected and also land on planets even if there are still enemy ships or space defenses in orbit, allowing you to do lightning raids to take out critical enemy installations even in heavily-defended regions, or soften up Imperial ground-based defenses in preparation for a full invasion. They get access to a bunch of different agents and minor heroes that can do poo poo like instigate riots, and in particular have the potential to bring in tons of money by planting smugglers everywhere to siphon Imperial income, which makes holding territory a lot less important. When you do need to hold territory, you can build a building that lets you safely retreat ground troops even if the enemy controls the space above the planet, allowing you to inflict some attrition losses on the Empire and then fade away when things get too hot.

Attrition matters, too, because the building limit on planets is very low and some can only be built in certain places, so both sides are only going to be able to produce certain units in certain places (e.g. the Empire cannot just poo poo out Star Destroyers by the dozen in literally every system). Every destroyed unit is one that, even if it can be replaced, has to be replaced and then moved to the front, so inflicting a lot of damage, even in a battle you technically 'lose', can take the enemy out of the fight in that region for quite a long time.

The Empire, conversely, is wealthy, powerful, sluggish, and huge, which makes playing as the Empire a game of COIN whack-a-mole in space, as you attempt to move your slow, lumbering, all-powerful Star Destroyer fleets around the galaxy to respond to various Rebel flare-ups and incursions, with there never being quite enough of the things. You can win most fights you start with the rebels, but the strategic difficulty comes in creating those opportunities. It makes you want to build the drat Death Star so you can just go around the galaxy systematically wiping all of them out instead of constantly swatting at flies.

The Rebel gameplay ends up centering around developing a few heavily-fortified base areas, with the main one being Mon Cala, which are so heavily defended as to be almost impregnable. With your base area secured, you then launch harassment raids from those areas to gradually wear the Empire down, accumulate resources, and gather public support (there is a new 'Support' mechanic, with the rebellion getting various rewards the higher their support is, and losing the game if it hits zero), until eventually building up enough to start challenging the Imperials in conventional warfare.

It is still pretty janky because it's a mod of a quite old game that was not really designed to work this way, but it makes it a very fresh and fun experience and I strongly recommend it, it's on Steam Workshop.

Mister Bates has issued a correction as of 02:23 on Aug 19, 2023

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Stairmaster posted:

I gave in and bought workers and resources but now I cant get my construction offices to pick up foreign workers? Can someone help from like step 1 of this process.

E: nvm it started working praise lenin

double e: I don't have loving bricks???????

the thing that really sets W&R apart from other city builders isn't the setting but its commitment to never abstracting anything if it can be avoided, even building a road (beyond an extremely basic unimproved dirt track) is going to require labor, machines, and construction materials. asphalt roads, the literal first thing you build in most city-builder games, are a complex production chain requiring multiple buildings, and producing them yourself without imports requires you to have an entire petroleum industry going to get the necessary bitumen.

you can build things with money unless you're playing on realistic mode, but even if you are not playing on realistic mode it is better to import resources from the border - building with money also substitutes the labor with money, and subtracts additional cost to simulate transporting the resources there, so importing poo poo yourself will stretch your money quite a bit.

I like to focus on getting electricity generation going first thing, then a profitable industry that lets you turn imported raw materials into processed goods you can sell (turning fabric into clothes, for example), then get started on the extensive infrastructure you are going to need to make yourself self-sufficient for construction.

See, unlike in most city-builders where they just appear, building a whole-rear end building in Workers and Resources requires products from multiple entire industries, and the combined labor of thousands of people, most of whom will never set foot on the job site. You'll need gravel which has to be excavated and processed, concrete which has to be mixed out of cement that had to be manufactured, wood which had to be cut down and processed, steel which had to be manufactured out of iron that had to be mined and processed, prefabricated panels that had to be manufactured, electrical wiring and mechanical parts that had to be manufactured, bricks that had to be fired, etc., and many of those have their own prerequisites you'll have to build and supply, and then all of that poo poo needs to be transported everywhere, and everything at every step of the process needs people too.

Gravel is the easiest to start with - it's bulky and inefficient to import, the production chain is extremely simple (quarry->processing plant), it does not require a ton of labor, you will need a fuckload of it forever, and it's also a prerequisite for several other more advanced construction materials. It's tempting to immediately start out by building a sprawling factory complex that supplies all of your construction needs - and don't get me wrong, if you get into the game you will totally do that eventually - but when just starting out, it's better to break it into small, bite-sized chunks

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
one of the most revolutionary (heh) things W&R does is honestly the way it handles cars and traffic.

like, shitloads of city builders have attempted to do agent-based traffic sims, with Cities Skylines being the most well-known example right now. The simulation in CS cheats a whole lot, though - not only is there a quite low agent limit and everything above it just teleports to its destination, but the agents themselves will also eventually teleport if the commute is too long, and badly gridlocked traffic will eventually literally disappear, preventing a badly designed intersection from completely killing a city. Most importantly, CS does not really simulate parking at all - yeah, there are parking spaces, but they're basically aesthetic, an agent will still reach its destination even if there is not actually parking there, the car will just disappear into the void.

In Workers and Resources, every single thing driving on the road is fully modeled, and it does need to physically reach its destination, and when it gets there, there does need to be a parking space for it to park. They also all need fuel, a requirement CS and other city builders generally do not model at all.

It sucks! Trying to build an American-style car-centric city, in a game where all traffic is modeled and none of it is abstracted, sucks! It's not just that you need shitloads of roads. It's that you need to devote massive amounts of space, labor, and resources to building acres upon acres of parking lots loving everywhere. It's that you need to place gas stations everywhere, figure out how to keep them supplied with fuel, and plan for the traffic going into and out of them. It is a nightmare to design and will pretty much always have massive problems with congestion you could avoid by just using fewer cars, plus shitloads of additional pollution, plus all of the extra labor and resources you have to expend supplying the hungry hungry cars - the fuel, the asphalt, the steel for new cars.

by simply making all of the cars actually have to go from point A to point B, the game accidentally(?) makes a political statement

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
obviously it's communist but I don't know how much of the anti-car message was the developer actually having anything against cars specifically, and how much of it was simply that attempting to realistically simulate automobiles, both the traffic and also all of the externalities associated with them, inevitably makes cars look loving awful as a mode of transport even if you aren't intentionally setting out to do that

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

gradenko_2000 posted:

In the bus stop interface, there's a check box next to Workers, Passengers, and Students. I unchecked Passengers, and that seems to have solved the issue, but I guess that means the bus stop won't serve passengers anymore? What could be the fallout from that?

‘Passengers’ are specifically people off work who are trying to go somewhere other than work or school, so if the only purpose that bus stop serves is as a collection point for laborers you should definitely turn off passengers, students, and tourists.

for larger central bus stations it’s okay to leave them all on, but you should definitely still specialize the bus lines themselves, e.g. don’t have a bus line that stops both in the shopping district and out at the mines even if they’re both in the same direction

Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010
The problem with importing gravel isn't the cost of the gravel, it's the cost - in fuel, but also in time, traffic congestion, and vehicle wear-and-tear - to transport the gravel. There's a very limited number of spaces in the customs office for importing things, it takes a long time to fill up a truck and even longer to fill up a train, and you need lots of gravel for basically everything, which means a lot of trucks on the road and a lot of fuel and time wasted on trucks constantly streaming back and forth between the border and your construction sites - and a lot of trucks importing things other than gravel wasting time waiting in line for the gravel imports to finish.

A decent happy medium would be to import gravel via train to a central staging area, and then have all your trucks pull from that storage yard instead of sending them to the border.

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Mister Bates
Aug 4, 2010

Stairmaster posted:

im getting owned just by my guys not walking to the buildings fullfilling their needs. Just walk to the store if you''re starving....

when selecting a building, you can hover over the icon of the little walking guy to see an overlay of every single building that is within walking range and what route they're taking, to help optimize this

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