|
EclecticTastes posted:Yeah, I get that, it just feels like an unfortunate contrast between "visual and sound design in 1994" and "visual and sound design in 2022" where somehow 1994 ends up feeling more daring and original, even when judged by 2022 standards. Don't get me wrong, it's good, but both the design and composition are really bog-standard "post-Playstation Square-Enix", and this was a chance for them to instead make a big swing, come up with some truly out-there visuals and music, and basically say "This game was ahead of its time for 1994, and here's what we think is ahead of its time for 2022". Which, obviously, is just my own high expectations, it's no fault on the devs' part, plus Demon King Odio is a tough act to follow when it comes to novel and interesting boss designs. Loved that the whole crew got to team up on Sin of Odio, though, that ruled. Outside of music and such was it visually designed by the same people as the 1st form of Odio? Knowing that it was a new addition to the remake, it struck me like another developer came in and was just tasked to make a "JRPG final boss" and came up with the most generic looking thing possible. Unless it was the same designer working on both, it strikes me of less of a 1994 vs. 2022 thing... I suspect that in the early 90s, outside of Live A Live and FF and a couple others that there were a ton of forgotten early-90s Dragon Quest clones and such that put you up against a generic looking evil dragon, wizard etc. Just that the original LaL happened to have a cool design compared to what most run-of-the-mill 1990s RPGs would come up with and this one didn't have the talent/inspiration etc to rise above a generic design. Outside of a bit disappointing design though, nice capstone to the story and it seems like the original ending would have been a little underwhelming without it.
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 03:42
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 01:27 |
|
|
Item Getter posted:Outside of music and such was it visually designed by the same people as the 1st form of Odio? Knowing that it was a new addition to the remake, it struck me like another developer came in and was just tasked to make a "JRPG final boss" and came up with the most generic looking thing possible. Unless it was the same designer working on both, it strikes me of less of a 1994 vs. 2022 thing... I suspect that in the early 90s, outside of Live A Live and FF and a couple others that there were a ton of forgotten early-90s Dragon Quest clones and such that put you up against a generic looking evil dragon, wizard etc. Just that the original LaL happened to have a cool design compared to what most run-of-the-mill 1990s RPGs would come up with and this one didn't have the talent/inspiration etc to rise above a generic design. Outside of a bit disappointing design though, nice capstone to the story and it seems like the original ending would have been a little underwhelming without it. The original ending was fine as-is, actually. Oersted gets a speech from your chosen character, he realizes what a fool he'd been and what he'd lacked, and dies peacefully after warning everyone that as long as hate exists, anyone can become the demon king. The boss rush served as a satisfying victory lap after a fairly tough final boss (Demon King/Pure Odio were pretty nasty if you didn't know what you were doing). Sin of Odio gave Oersted a chance to do something cool before dying and let you really relish in the power of your characters, but didn't really add much, narratively, that wasn't already present. Also, the nineties actually had a lot of really creative design if you knew where to look, particularly at Squaresoft/Enix. The SaGa franchise, Chrono Trigger/Cross, etc. Even Final Fantasy managed to throw a few aesthetic curveballs in FFVI. But since the early 2000s, I haven't really seen anything particularly exciting from SE's designs at all that wasn't from a remake of earlier work (Nier: Automata notwithstanding, and that was more Yoko Taro's vision than theirs). Maybe some of the stuff in Kingdom Hearts is kinda neat?
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 04:13
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:Well, I finally finished up the remake, and the new ending was really great. I'll admit, though, the new boss' design seemed a little plain compared to Demon King Odio, and Gigalovania can't really hold a candle to Megalomania. Maybe I'm just partial to 1994's aesthetic sensibilities, but while the fight itself was unbelievably rad, the sound and visuals were kind of upstaged by the rest of the game. I reaaaally don't find Gigalomania and Megalomania comparable pieces of music... Gigalomania is ultimately a song that has been written for Oersted, not anyone else in the cast, and I think it tied in well with the Remake's ending. He is at odds with himself. Meanwhile, Megalomania still sounds like the ancestor of Guile's Theme, and it's still a banger. Wrt monster design, big agree. Sin Odio is ultimately Generic JRPG Boss Lord Zedd with a cozy chest cutout for Oersted to take a nice nap in. Pure Odio is a fairly unique nightmare Mr. Potato Head of sorts in comparison. Why are there grapes? It feels so random. Japanese fans on Twitter still ask about the grapes and end up Googling random meanings / symbolism for grapes. Who knows at this point, but it's an iconic enough design that Oersted and Odio still get associated with grapes in fanart. Item Getter posted:Outside of a bit disappointing design though, nice capstone to the story and it seems like the original ending would have been a little underwhelming without it. I did like the endings in the SFC version, but the Remake ending does feel organic, like it could have been part of the ending all along. In the SFC version: After you do the statue / boss gauntlet, Oersted asks, "Why can't we win?! Is this our fate?! How are we all different from you?!", then there'd be a chat between him & your protag, then he'd send everyone back home. In the Remake: After you do the statue / boss gauntlet, Oersted asks, "Why can't we win?! Is this our fate?! How are we all different from you?!", then you fight Sin Odio, Oersted is free and he immediately voices his regrets over his actions, then there'd be a chat between him & your protag (only Pogo and Cube's are different in Remake), then he sends everyone back home. I think the new order of events with the boss fight and whatnot before the protag pep talk worked pretty well. EclecticTastes posted:Sin of Odio gave Oersted a chance to do something cool before dying and let you really relish in the power of your characters, but didn't really add much, narratively, that wasn't already present. Yea the difference is slight, but still visible. I guess it depends on how much you care about Oersted's character. Personally, I do like him, so I thought it was a nice touch he got to ~symbolically~ free himself from the hatred and die as himself. And as far as the other characters go, would they wanna help some dumb blonde guy they pretty much just met and was connected to the other 7 aggressors who made everything go to poo poo in their own times who just tried to kill them all all like 3 times in a row? Honestly, yeah. They are "heroes" after all, trying to do something that feels right - I say as a I eye my Oboromaru 100 kill run save file. They aren't in this to seek validation, as Oersted seemingly was himself. I guess the Sin boss fight just helps hammer that aspect in.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 07:36
|
|
|
honestly if it weren’t for knowing there was a new track called Gigalovania and the part of the fight where your other three party members on the bench jump for a full seven man beatdown (which seems overambitious even for an exceptionally ambitious game) in id have probably assumed it was just the original SFC ending. Partly because it makes more sense for Oerstied to be getting possessed in the actual new final boss if, you know, the original final boss ends with him coming back to normal and asking for you to give him the old coup de grace. But that might be new to the remake…
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 09:41
|
|
|
Last Celebration posted:honestly if it weren’t for knowing there was a new track called Gigalovania and the part of the fight where your other three party members on the bench jump for a full seven man beatdown (which seems overambitious even for an exceptionally ambitious game) in id have probably assumed it was just the original SFC ending. Partly because it makes more sense for Oerstied to be getting possessed in the actual new final boss if, you know, the original final boss ends with him coming back to normal and asking for you to give him the old coup de grace. But that might be new to the remake… That part was in the original game. What is new is his "very clearly not okay in the head" laugh that he does during the fight, and the red aura that leaves his body after he says Alethea's name then collapses.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 10:02
|
|
|
miasmacloud posted:That part was in the original game. What is new is his "very clearly not okay in the head" laugh that he does during the fight, and the red aura that leaves his body after he says Alethea's name then collapses. Yeah, there's a lot going on in the revised ending that seems to alter some context and I dislike the implications. Like, in the original, Oersted definitively wasn't possessed, he had become Odio. This came up earlier in the thread, also in spoiler tags, where, my interpretation is that Odio is like the idea of the Buddha, in that it's as much a state of being as it is an entity. Anyone can become and claim the powers of Odio if they become consumed with hatred and despair. Oersted reached a point of such pure hatred that he became a full, true incarnation of Odio, a Pure Odio, while the other bosses embodied only facets of Odio. This explains why Oersted underwent such a dramatic transformation for his boss fight (okay technically Ode Iou did some transforming, too, but that was explicitly dark magic, not just The Power Of Hate). Anyway, once he was beaten up, he just sort of resigned himself to being defeated, and (so those who haven't played it will know) if you kill him in the original SNES version, your chosen character will get a dark palette swap and it's implied they give in to their own hatred and become the new incarnation of Odio, rather than everyone just walking away, making it a much darker ending. This is also why he comes back for the boss rush, is because at that point he hadn't truly given up on proving that his hatred is correct. It's only after everyone wins and he gets a stern talking-to and/or inarticulate noises made at him that he's forced to accept that he was wrong, repents briefly, warns everyone, then dies. The new version kind of implies he was possessed by a "real" demon lord of some sort that was just attracted to Oersted's hate, but I choose to believe that it was just his own hatred given form, the cognitive dissonance caused by his defeat, as well as the dark power of Odio, forcing all of his inner darkness (his sins) to manifest independently of him, needing to be struck down before he could be freed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 10:50
|
|
|
I’ve only played the remake and that’s my read as well. I think the alternate reading only appears in the contrast between the original and the remake; the remake version taken on its own does not imply Odio is something that exists independently of Ørsted's hatred and despair.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 12:34
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:Anyway, once he was beaten up, he just sort of resigned himself to being defeated, and (so those who haven't played it will know) if you kill him in the original SNES version, your chosen character will get a dark palette swap and it's implied they give in to their own hatred and become the new incarnation of Odio, rather than everyone just walking away, making it a much darker ending. This is also why he comes back for the boss rush, is because at that point he hadn't truly given up on proving that his hatred is correct. It's only after everyone wins and he gets a stern talking-to and/or inarticulate noises made at him that he's forced to accept that he was wrong, repents briefly, warns everyone, then dies. EclecticTastes posted:Like, in the original, Oersted definitively wasn't possessed, he had become Odio.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 12:54
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:The new version kind of implies he was possessed by a "real" demon lord of some sort that was just attracted to Oersted's hate, but I choose to believe that it was just his own hatred given form, the cognitive dissonance caused by his defeat, as well as the dark power of Odio, forcing all of his inner darkness (his sins) to manifest independently of him, needing to be struck down before he could be freed. My read was that it wasn't so much Oersted himself as it was the last bit of Goodness, the man he was, prying itself out of the monster that he became to strike himself down.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 17:31
|
|
|
miasmacloud posted:I'm not sure what you mean about the Never End on SFC... I went and double checked a video cause I don't remember that happening at all, and the player character remains the same color. The ripped game sprites also don't seem to have a different colored sprite for any of the protags. I looked, and it's actually the effect of the yellow filter that shows up during the credits, it makes some characters' sprites look darker. And I suppose it's more Akira's remark in his version that leads one to that implication, and it may be that the reason they all walk away in the new variant is to remove the ambiguity.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 19:15
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:And I suppose it's more Akira's remark in his version that leads one to that implication, and it may be that the reason they all walk away in the new variant is to remove the ambiguity. Hmm. I'm curious - what did Aeon put as the translation for what Akira says there? Cause I can only think of the Japanese line for that, and it doesn't register for me as "implying Akira becomes the next embodiment of hatred and despair".
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 20:27
|
|
|
miasmacloud posted:Hmm. I'm curious - what did Aeon put as the translation for what Akira says there? Cause I can only think of the Japanese line for that, and it doesn't register for me as "implying Akira becomes the next embodiment of hatred and despair". It's the combination of him basically just calling Oersted an idiot and then the yellow filter making his sprite look darker that makes it feel like he's now on a dark path. Also, you know, the phrase "never end" implies that everything is repeating itself, as in, now Akira is the demon king.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 20:54
|
|
|
EclecticTastes posted:It's the combination of him basically just calling Oersted an idiot and then the yellow filter making his sprite look darker that makes it feel like he's now on a dark path. Also, you know, the phrase "never end" implies that everything is repeating itself, as in, now Akira is the demon king. To make it clear, I don't doubt that someone, your protag, etc becomes the next host for the Spooky Hate Magic or whatever in the Never End. After all, even in the True End, Oersted warns the others that this could happen to anyone. But you claimed that "your chosen character will get a dark palette swap and it's implied they give in to their own hatred and become the new incarnation of Odio, rather than everyone just walking away, making it a much darker ending", and "Akira's remark in his version that leads one to that implication", which is what I was questioning.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 21:38
|
|
|
miasmacloud posted:To make it clear, I don't doubt that someone, your protag, etc becomes the next host for the Spooky Hate Magic or whatever in the Never End. After all, even in the True End, Oersted warns the others that this could happen to anyone. Yeah, it's not a literal new sprite so much as the yellow filter making some characters look different. I only realized that not everyone looked different under the filter, like, today.
|
|
#
?
Aug 29, 2022 23:33
|
|
|
ahh... i've finally been able to finish cowboyin, i think up next is prehistory what a nice chapter, tho sundown did die twice in my non-thrown boss fight 
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2022 06:34
|
|
|
Last night in Japan was the 28th anniversary & rebirth celebratory livestream, which can be viewed on Square Enix's channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_nWg76IatI  
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2022 08:27
|
|
|
Unlucky7 posted:My read was that it wasn't so much Oersted himself as it was the last bit of Goodness, the man he was, prying itself out of the monster that he became to strike himself down. this was my interpretation as well
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2022 14:48
|
|
|
also the new true ultimate final boss might have a kinda thematically bland design but it was also clearly based on the eighth statue in archon's roost and i can respect that design decision
|
|
#
?
Sep 3, 2022 14:50
|
|
|
ah yea this cool vid just came out comparing og and remake LAL!! its p neat seeing all the gameplay changes  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjwJ01VnuoI
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:02
|
|
|
I have been juggling multiple games lately, so I've not played much of LAL since I got to the middle ages portion, but... I just wanna say that, like, what I have played has been fairly genius and excellently made. I wonder what its legacy would be if this game had gotten an international release when it was new.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2022 01:52
|
|
|
Terra-da-loo! posted:I have been juggling multiple games lately, so I've not played much of LAL since I got to the middle ages portion, but... I just wanna say that, like, what I have played has been fairly genius and excellently made. I wonder what its legacy would be if this game had gotten an international release when it was new. It's an interesting question because what we would have gotten would *not* have been what it is. I can't see LAL getting past US censorship stuff unchanged at the time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2022 02:02
|
|
|
Question for people who played the SFC version, gameplay spoilers: so from gameplay I’ve seen of the SFC fan translation, the names of the attacks for Imperial China characters are Chinese. I thought it was kinda lame that the remake translation doesn’t retain that since there’s skill descriptions until I realized, “oh, that would make their final chapter dungeon kinda bullshit since the attack names are hints in the context of that section”. Which makes me wonder, how’d that work originally?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 16:04
|
|
|
I don’t remember the specifics but there was nothing stopping you from just using all your skills until one worked.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 16:06
|
|
|
The original version didn't give you those little hint riddles if I recall correctly. It was all trial and error.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 16:33
|
|
|
Oh wait, other question I meant to ask: so from what I understand, Earthen Heart Master (and Masaru) being able to learn potentially missable moves in the final chapter via level up is a new thing too, so how does the dungeon work if you hypothetically miss learning too many of the Shifu’s moves? Unless I’m wrong and you’d learn those moves eventually through leveling without seeing them even in the SFC version?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 16:46
|
|
|
Presumably you could lock yourself out of areas if you missed enough, but the dungeon is composed of like three main areas separated by a lot of tunnels. You can get everything without ever using Heavenly Peaks' Descent, for example, and presumably the same goes if you're just missing one other ability. You need Wise Fox' Grace for the big reward, but I imagine there's paths there that only require one or two other skills, if any at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 17:05
|
|
|
Last Celebration posted:Question for people who played the SFC version, gameplay spoilers: so from gameplay I’ve seen of the SFC fan translation, the names of the attacks for Imperial China characters are Chinese. I thought it was kinda lame that the remake translation doesn’t retain that since there’s skill descriptions until I realized, “oh, that would make their final chapter dungeon kinda bullshit since the attack names are hints in the context of that section”. As for the dungeon, it's pretty much what the others said. You just had to guess or go down the list and use every single move lol.
|
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2022 04:55
|
|
|
miasmacloud posted:\ That seems really dumb. What's even the point? I guess you might not have the moves to break some of them if you missed them but seems like a very tedious way to do it. Item Getter fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Sep 19, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 19, 2022 13:09
|
|
|
bringing this back up - should i be at all concerned with the superbosses? the amount of preparation and effort needed to beat king mammoth seems way out of proportion to what the rest of the stage requires and i don't know if that's a trend
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 03:32
|
|
|
You shouldn’t need to grind much to beat King Mammoth, most of the crazy preparation is people who want a fast and easy kill because they’re trying to farm him over and over until they get the rare drop. But also King Mammoth is probably the hardest bonus boss relative to your party strength when you fight them.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:bringing this back up - should i be at all concerned with the superbosses? the amount of preparation and effort needed to beat king mammoth seems way out of proportion to what the rest of the stage requires and i don't know if that's a trend King Mammoth has pretty good rewards. The Soda Bottle is as strong as people say, (it isn't worth grinding for, but hey, you might get lucky.), and the King's Fang that always drops gives a big boost to a stat that doesn't get many boosts and blocks a very important status. That said, skipping it won't hurt you that much. I'd give the fight a couple of tries (put poison under his feet, keep your distance, try to interrupt charging with Pogo), but if you can't pull it off then just move on, it's fine. Neither of the two ninja superbosses drop very useful items; in particular, one of them drops a weapon that's the same as the reward for the no-kill run, if you're interested in doing that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 06:31
|
|
|
You don't need to fight any of the superbosses if you don't want to. The game is easy, and you don't need what they give ever.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 06:34
|
|
|
I'm aware that there is a hidden pair of shoes in Twilight of Edo Japan that grants protection against all statuses or something, and that the name is a play on words or something. Can anyone tell me what it is?
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:26
|
|
|
MachuPikacchu posted:I'm aware that there is a hidden pair of shoes in Twilight of Edo Japan that grants protection against all statuses or something, and that the name is a play on words or something. Can anyone tell me what it is? The name is Geta-load-of-these-Geta.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:45
|
|
|
defeated the nimble lava elephant at level 14 I didn’t get the cola bottle but I’m not going to try farming it, because that fight was very tedious and I only have enough HUGE MEAT for maybe one more attempt
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 20:17
|
|
|
I wanted to double-check something for Twilight of Edo Japan: for a 100-kill run, is it correct that you need to kill the maid who offers you the medicine box? If so, is there any reason not to just kill everyone EXCEPT her and to get that sick accessory and all the XP/items from everyone else too? I heard that there's no reward for completing a 100-kill run, but does the game acknowledge it in some way? Does it lead to a scene or dialogue or... anything? If not, this item's too good for me to bother with finishing it. Thanks!
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 03:04
|
|
|
Yes, you need to kill her and miss the medicine box for 100 kills. I don’t remember any acknowledgement for a 100 kill run, unless it causes some minor dialogue change in the final chapter or something. There’s definitely no reward for it. A mixed run is best if you’re just trying to minmax rewards.
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
Snake Maze posted:Yes, you need to kill her and miss the medicine box for 100 kills. I don’t remember any acknowledgement for a 100 kill run, unless it causes some minor dialogue change in the final chapter or something. There’s definitely no reward for it. A mixed run is best if you’re just trying to minmax rewards. OK, that's what I thought! It turns out that I'm more greedy than prideful, so mixed run it is. Thank you!
|
|
#
?
Nov 7, 2022 03:17
|
|
|
How different is the regular good ending vs. the version where you recruited everyone? If it's the same except that the latter has an extra scene/dialogue or something, I'd love to know because then I'm not gonna bother doing the former.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 22:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 1, 2024 01:27 |
|
|
surf rock posted:How different is the regular good ending vs. the version where you recruited everyone? true final boss
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 22:55
|
|