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I'm stuck early in the Wild West chapter, no matte how much milk I drink, this outlaw just keeps getting me more. I've had like 30 cups and he won't stop. this can't be healthy 
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Jul 23, 2022 16:55
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I actually appreciated how I somehow managed to stumble into pulling it off despite spending 90% of my time aimlessly loving around and reloading a lot of autosaves. Felt like just the right amount of leeway. I did not kill the fish, though. someday i will be back for you, just you wait
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Jul 24, 2022 01:09
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Maybe if you'd been a bit better at loving up you'd know that each kill is tallied immediately after a fight and that boss doesn't add to the counter.  What's even left after that, though? put money in the money hole, don't fall, get the robot, don't fall, proceed to plot flag, don't fall, and you're home free, unless there are other steps I did before coming there that mattered Like it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's basically the only direction you can go, other than the direction the game tells you is bad and should be savescummed away.
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Jul 24, 2022 02:07
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I finally made it to Chapter 8, and I gotta say, I did not expect the dramatic finale to be a bog standard final fantasy knockoff with a silent protagonist. You had better have a hell of a twist in store, game! Though I guess the wizard is kinda cool, just got a straightforward arsenal of the final fantasy elements. I keep wracking my brain for some overarching plot, but all I've pieced together is that all the villains are named Odio and have some flavor of JRPG villain "greater good through awful means and also awful ends really" motivations (except the gatling gun ghost horse, he seemed cool). Also Watanabe's dad is gonna die, but they popped that one off in the tutorial. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jul 24, 2022 |
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Jul 24, 2022 17:05
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I just beat the game as a first timer and while I'd gladly post a bigger post with my impression of each chapter when I have the time, I can easily say this game totally blew me away. Like it's contemporary with Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger and those games got to be genre-defining RPGs while this one languished in obscurity, and took 28 years to get released outside Japan??? what the heck is that, this game is absolutely on their level
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Jul 26, 2022 02:37
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I looked it up and supposedly if you do that, it picks whoever had the highest starting level; Hong if he ties with someone else, and Lei if you gave her and Yun equal time and Hong less.
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Jul 26, 2022 11:10
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Well I think I've played through the whole game now and am just gonna post my opinions on all the chapters as a big ol' scattershot, in the order I played them: Present Day: Probably the least interesting chapter, and that's saying a lot given that it's a Mega Man/Street Fighter RPG storyline. Pretty barebones, and I'm glad I did it first because it was all combat and the learning mechanism made me pay attention to how enemy attacks worked. I don't think I worked out the all-important knight placement from this chapter alone, but I did figure out that I could basically cheese the boss by spamming Fleetfoot at him, interrupting his charge attack and making him waste turns turning to face me. Imperial China: Easily my favorite of the bunch. If I were to fault the other routes, most of them have a protagonist who barely if ever speaks, but Roshi was a chatty dude who was just good and wholesome. It's also nice to start out as the kung fu master and have it represented by the gameplay, you just beat the dog piss out of everyone until your students are barely able to fight back towards the end, and then the dojo is just a gauntlet of pushover grunts. This is a great example of what Live-A-Live can do and worked due to the game structure, while a feature length RPG would have to abandon the concept relatively early on. Then you get to the end and the enemies start to actually pose a threat, represented by their stats in the gameplay and the Shifu tiring in the plot because he's literally dying from exhaustion and old age, but fortunately it also coincides with the student approaching his level and coming into their own and being able to kick asses without him. Also I read the blurb about only one student succeeding him, but I figured the others would still be around for the chapter, so I went 2-1-1 for all the training sessions. I missed out on optimizing Lei's stats but it didn't matter because she was still a total shitwrecker. Roshi apologizing to his dead students and Lei's eulogy at the end as she wrecks the rock were also really touching. Definitely sold on the game at this point. Also Unto the Birds the Heavens, unto the Fish the Seas is a fuckin banger of a theme. Prehistory: Picked this one early-ish, because I figured I wouldn't really care for it, caveman stories are not my cup of tea. Turns out I was wrong, because it had the simple and, in retrospect, obvious idea of having no spoken language and communicating everything in gestures and grunts. I'm sure it was difficult to actually implement, but they pulled it off and I loved it. It had slapstick and poo poo and fart combat and Flintstone cars and caveman Dalton and was somehow the most straightforward RPG of the bunch, down to a rudimentary shopping/crafting mechanic, and you know what, it earned it. I wound up looking up a guide for this one, curious to see if I'd missed anything, and learned about the King Mammoth and Rock of Rocks. King Mammoth taught me a lot about positioning and I managed to beat it at level 12, but I was not going to bother grinding for the coke bottle. Kinda sad Beru is barely in your party, she ruled. Distant Future: I think this one is probably the one that suffered the most from the game's age. I've seen plenty of survival horror, even in the specific genre of on board a spaceship with a rogue AI, which were in a more suited medium than the sprite-based RPG. I'm sure it was a lot more novel for its time, but dang it is frustrating to watch the characters get repeatedly bamboozled by ship systems spontaneously failing and doctored communication logs and not suspect the one obvious culprit. It was pretty novel to play through it as the adorable little robot who wouldn't fight, especially once we finally get to the boss and they obviously can throw down. Also I saw someone mention that all the protagonists were male, including the robot, but the chapter exclusively gives Cubert they or it pronouns, depending on how much the speaker respects robots. I'm assuming it's the work of either the remake team or the localizers, but I do appreciate it. The Wild West: A nice little romp that served as a break between the longer stories. I forget the Wanderer's default name; the Sundown Kid maybe? I named them the Tequila Sunset Kid, and it fit. Music was cool, Mad Dog was cool, but I feel like the gimmick was almost too simple? I just looted the entire town, and gave traps to everyone in the bar, and then gave more traps to the ones that came back while the clock was tickin, which was enough to take out the entire Crazy Bunch even though I don't think the mariachis ever managed to complete planting a trap. This is also where I noticed the pattern of Watanabe's dad and the villains all being named variations of Odio; O. Dio was kind of on the nose. Didn't really care for the running orphan gag with comedic exaggerated crying sprites, nor what to make of the latter, but O. Dio was the coolest villain. Gatling gun ghost horse with impeccable manners, heck yeah. I killed Mad Dog, but apparently there's an alternate ending where you flee instead of shoot his face off? I don't regret it, he clearly wanted a fight to the death and it was the obliging thing to do, but I think I prefer the idea of them eventually burying the hatchet, he was a good egg. Twilight of Edo Japan: Jesus gently caress was this a complex one, and the gameplay is apparently entirely unaltered from the 1994 release? That messes with my head. I went for the pacifist route and appreciated how insanely free form the chapter was, after bungling and savescumming my way into the main castle; I fell into a pit, went to jail, and saw the prisoner right beside me. Naturally I did what any reasonable person would do, and reloaded my save and went in the exact opposite direction, working my way up the floors. I didn't do any combat until the contraptions attic, and it was neat to figure out the fights and see that I could get levels without incrementing the kill counter. I got to the robot boss horribly underleveled and managed to muddle through by abusing the knockback and tile damage from Waterspout, while avoiding attacks with the knight position, and it made me feel real cool. Then I saw a plot flag on the fifth floor, plus a fight that looked like they might be humans, but I couldn't figure out if they were because I couldn't beat them. I figured the prison was where I needed to go, but I wasn't gonna fall into the cage like a goon, so I scoured the map looking for the employee entrance. I found a prison, but it didn't have the Prisoner in it, which took me a long time to figure out was because I'd triggered a plot flag. By the time I realized I had also stumbled upon the storehouse and found the lost souls you were supposed to grind out as a pacifist player, and, hey, I didn't need that to get this far, obviously I'm just a badass. Eventually I made my way back to the coin slot and had enough cash to operate it this time around, which netted me a robot buddy who immediately died to unlock the boss door once I found a way to take it outside without dropping it down a death pit. Then I finally hit some plot and found the Prisoner, who I of course took all the way back downstairs to try to kill that fuckin fish, which didn't succeed. At this point I looked up a guide to see if I missed something, and learned that there's a way to get the prison key early on without violence, but at that point the prison didn't have anything I needed. Also there's an even harder superboss than the carp that I didn't even bother finding. It did get me the Geta-load-of-these Geta, which is a nice pun, but I think I'd have been happier not knowing about any of this, ah well. I see a lot of people mention that this chapter is really obtuse to try to pacifist, but I didn't think any part of it seemed that inscrutable and it certainly felt like you had a lot of leeway. I get the impression I might just have lucked out and stumbled into the optimal routing. I did savescum a lot, but I also talked to every NPC who didn't chase me and a lot of those were human fights, so that felt fair. Some of them gave me food and goods, and some were demons I was allowed to kill. The Near Future: Saved this for last because it seemed like an FF7-style dieselpunk romp, and Akira obviously looked like someone with a personality. Delivered on both of these fronts, and I didn't even know about the Golden Sun mind reading mechanic until I started. Definitely the darkest of the storylines, with the body horror tubes and all the dead parents, but it managed to hit those emotional beats. The I wish it had spent a little longer on explaining some of the themes. Liquefaction is obviously an insanely evil thing to do, what with the horror tubes and the robot screaming in pain as it's ordered to fight you and can't resist, but also it's okay to do to a dying turtle and it's happy about it and becomes your robot buddy, and you kid sister volunteers to be juiced because she's terminally ill? Dogg you gotta explain exactly what makes it okay sometimes and body horror at others. Also matango; there's a lite version that's a healing item, there's a bar where people get hosed up on it and it overrides their thoughts, and at one point a character eats a whole pile of them which overclocks his brain and makes him a powerful psychic, but eventually kills him. At no point, unless I missed it, does anyone mention what it is. I had to google it, and apparently it's a reference to a village of mushroom in Secret of Mana, which in itself is a reference to an old Japanese horror movie where people get addicted to mutagenic mushrooms that turn them into cannibal mushroom people? A throwaway line about them being psychadelic mushrooms would have been nice! Broader spoilery remarks: Obviously a cover for the remaining chapters, but I didn't want to give that away in case someone hasn't gotten there yet! I gave Middle Ages a hard time for being an extremely standard medieval RPG with a silent, and I was also really unsettled by the princess' voice actress who managed to read all her lines as though she really didn't want to be married to Ørsted, and the complete lack of communication between him and Streighbough about the latter obviously being infatuated with the princess. I expected the chapter to make up for this, but I honestly did not expect all of that to serve a purpose. Uranus in particular was such a stand-up dude and his Divine Voice is clearly the best attack in the game and it sucked that he got such a raw deal. It kind of bothered me that we couldn't hear Ørsted speak up in his defense at any point, but it's eventually clear that he did and what he said is left to the player's imagination because it ultimately doesn't matter. Alethea Julietting herself inspiring Ørsted to finally speak and condemn the world was insanely powerful and I am so glad I had none of this spoiled for me, probably the single coolest moment in the game. Also everyone speaks in some kind of Shakespearan or Middle English or whatever the actual term is for this particular kind of prose, and I'm really glad they added that touch. I'm also psyched they had an Odio version of the final chapter. The fights were easy and the ending wasn't anything much, but it was pretty cool to get to play as the final bosses, and I absolutely loved his tender little monologue to each of them. It made the obvious final confrontation with him on the heroic route all the more impactful. The Actual Final Chapter was one of the weaker ones, but I came in with tempered expectations because I know how these stories tend to get when they open up and let you use anyone, and it greatly exceeded those. The gameplay was everything I could have wanted, just gathering up your favorites and throwing them at meaty optional dungeons and watching them reach their full potential and getting them geared up to absolutely clown on things. The random encounters got a bit long in the tooth towards the end, but not overwhelmingly so, and of course I didn't have to get everyone to level 16 and plow through their optional dungeon. I made Lei my main character and am glad of it; game could certainly have used more than one eventual optional female protagonist, but at least she is awesome. Excellent stats, even without optimized gear, and she gets two obscenely powerful attacks that could basically wipe every random encounter. Plus you get to see her unique line for finding loot and it's "Would you look at that! A <item>!  The weak part is that it had basically no plot to speak of. You meet a party member, they introduce themselves, maybe they'll pick a fight, and bam done. Only unique interaction I got is that since Lei is a girl, Pogo will swoon and make his sex noises at her, and she'll comment that he's obviously taken a shine to her, which would have sat a lot better with me if it wasn't literally her only voiced line to another protagonist. Only other dialogue you get is that exposition carp that requires you to clear two dungeons (which I did last because those were for the party members I didn't feel like using), and the ghosts in Akira's dungeon, which were cool but would have been a lot cooler if the characters had reacted to them in any way. Then there's the final confrontation, which was fuckin hype. Odio actually gets some unique lines for every character and they respond in kind (I made Lei and Akira my core party members because they were cool and had good attacks, then shuffled around Cubert, the Tequila Sunset Kid and Oboromaru before settling on the first two for my party. The ninja was easily a far more well-rounded party member, but the cowboy was cooler and could do pretty wild damage with his last few moves). The final final fight of all characters clowning on their respective Odio, then coming together to wipe the floor with his final form, only to wrest Ørsted free so he could kill his own Odio was insanely cinematic and cool. Then it ends on your chosen character giving a speech to Ørsted that at least manages to soothe him a little as he tries to come to grips with his deeds. Lei opens up with a pained realization that he reminds him of herself; she used to be jealous and resentful, but had a kindly mentor and eventually realized that everyone struggles and has aspirations and you can't know the hardship of strangers. She's doing her best to be a better person, and sometimes she stumbles, but she keeps soldiering on. Ørsted respects and admires that, and sends you all on your way. Everyone gets a parting line, and I particularly liked Tequila Sunset Kid's "We'll survive. It's what humans do," and Lei's "Wish you were here, Old Man," wondering if they'd truly saved the world and if they could have done a better job somehow, and settling on "We did our best. It'll have to do." obviously the coolest protagonist and correct choice this game is pretty cool, will recommend it to friends
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Jul 26, 2022 23:24
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also a lot of the music is really good, but that's obvious, it's Yoko Shimomura. I do dig the copious amount of saxophone that I assume are the remaster's work.
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Jul 26, 2022 23:25
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Unlucky7 posted:True Ending question: If you play as Cube, will you be able to give Ornsted a cup of coffee? For better or worse the guy kinda earned it. From what I've been told in lieu of a speech, Cube gives him a flower. Pogo, meanwhile, gives him a hug.
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Jul 28, 2022 00:30
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For what it's worth (endgame stuff) you don't have to do the optional dungeons to get the best ending, recruiting every character is enough. Four of them don't even have random encounters, and I kind of liked Masaru's gimmick of just being a straight path full of extra tough encounters, most of which could be avoided if you ignored the chests, but the other two that were straight dungeon dungeons managed to try my patience as well. Pacing across the overworld and having the final dungeon be one you'd traipsed through twice in the previous chapter were the bigger drags for me. I came in with the mentality that it was gonna be Live-A-Live's World of Ruin, figuring that if it somehow wasn't, that'd be a pleasant surprise, but having tempered expectations helped a lot. If this wasn't a remake of a 1994 game, I would have been heck of disappointed by everything but the actual finale, which would have still been amazing. Ørsted's voice actor absolutely nailed it. "Hate. Sweet hate. She springs eternal, all-tempting draught. We'll drink of her again."
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Jul 28, 2022 01:01
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EclecticTastes posted:I imagine I'll still find myself partial to the Aeon Genesis version of Oersted's speeches in his final chapter Please circle back to this once you've seen the remake version. I dunno what the original/Aeon Genesis version did, but I absolutely loved the remake's take.
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Jul 28, 2022 02:20
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Pft just savescum like a normal person who refuses to fall into traps on principle.
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Jul 29, 2022 13:24
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Yeah, your options are to just wear it down, which is far more doable than it looks; I forget its attack ranges but you can spread out and avoid its nastier stuff and Akira's heal is enough to keep you going, or to hit it from behind and make it go kaboom.
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Aug 2, 2022 06:59
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Supposedly teleporting has a chance of sending you to the Orphanarium bathroom, and even more rarely popping in on Taeko in the bath to get an eyeful of her naked sprite. Dunno if the latter is in the remake, did not bother to check.
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Aug 2, 2022 09:55
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Dunno how much it helps, but the King Mammoth will only use the instant fire attack if a character is adjacent to him. You can prevent that from firing. The big nasty one requires a confluence of RPG fuckery, by having all your interrupt attacks miss and by having the fire tick come before Gori's turn in case that happens. Not saying it's a good fight, but it takes a couple bad coin flips in a row for it to completely dick you over. When I finally did beat him he had definitely gotten in a couple big heals and I'd had to do like 1500 damage. I did not get the RNG drop and could not be bothered to try again.
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Aug 2, 2022 11:15
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AshtonDragon posted:End spoiler stuff: I think I missed one optional boss, though? I got cosmic gear for the head, chest, gloves, and accessory slots, but no boots. If you don't mind having this spoiled: Once you get to Virtue's Reward, once Odio shows up and bids you approach, don't, and leave the room instead. It's a pretty rude secret, especially when Lei is your player character.
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Aug 2, 2022 16:32
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Is there any way to figure out which stats affect which moves? Like I've been going on the assumption that Physical Attack affects the first seven damage types and Special Attack the remaining seven, but I'm not sure that holds 100%, let alone which moves are buffed by Physical Defense or Speed. Also 20 save slots is too few. Do you not gain anything from keeping clear data saves from previous chapters so long as you have a later save that includes it? I kind of figured it mattered since each chapter's saves appear in the select menu.
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Aug 3, 2022 19:33
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I don't know if I just lucked out through the encounter, but I took away that Cube can absolutely throw down if they need to, they just choose not to because they have rejected violence. also imagining Kato's exact thought process as he made his cuddly little helper robot 90% Maser Cannon by volume is fun. It's a fine capstone imo
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Aug 4, 2022 13:15
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They absorb all the tiles. They are also way more obscure than the other secrets, even the second optional boss. If there's anything worse, I haven't heard of it.
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Aug 4, 2022 14:42
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Glagha posted:So about medieval chapter stuff: One big thing the game never says out loud but I think is fair to conclude is that "The Dark Lord" was never any one individual. It wasn't a fake Dark Lord or one of his minions, like Hasshe assumed, it was just a different guy. You did kill the guy who had taken up the Archon's Roost and kidnapped Alethea. The chapter's conclusion makes it very clear that anyone can take up the mantle of Odio, Lord of Darkness. I was confused about this plot point as well, but it all comes together if it turns out that Hasshe was just plain wrong. He and we assumed that the Dark Lord was some Ganondorf-type individual who cannot be killed, only sealed away, but there is nothing to indicate that this is the case. He and Uranus killed their dark lord, and then helped you kill Ørsted's, those were different dudes, both were Odio, and both are now dead and gone. Neither of them had any relation to Streibough or Ørsted, who took up the mantle after slaying their predecessor. I don't think the game ever establishes if Alethea and Streibough had a pre-existing relationship or if they literally only got to know each other after the kidnapping. I'm of the former read, but can't say the latter is specifically untrue. We don't know how much Ørsted knew because it's not important, what matters is that he didn't care. He did the heroics, he won the tournament, he gets to marry the princess, that's how this works. I remember being really frustrated with the intro of the chapter, because her voice actress is oozing with apprehension at marrying this total stranger, and since Ørsted is a silent protagonist, we never get any sort of elaboration on it. That was absolutely on purpose, because she does eventually make clear that she never wanted to marry Ørsted and all her words to the contrary were just her trying to serve her duties as a princess and hoping she could grow into it. Ørsted even has a specific line lamenting that he did what he was told and expected only his just reward, while considerations of Streibough and Alethea's feelings do not enter into his mind. Most people seem to come away thinking that Streibough is obviously the locus of the Middle Ages bad poo poo, but I think the King deserves a lot of the credit. He obviously never considered his daughter's feelings, because both politics and tropes dictated that she marry whoever he thought was cool. If he had allowed her to be more than a prize to be won (Disney's Aladdin came out two years prior to this game), none of this would have gone down the way it did. E: Also, on a broader note relating to stuff before and after that: the whole "Odio is not a Ganondorf" is pretty much the overarching plot of the game. O. Dio, OD-10, Ode Iou and the others have nothing in common other than a hatred of the world that spawned them, and they, like the various dark lords of the middle ages, took up the mantle of Odio in their own eras. Assuming that evil is some kind of individual that you can just kill and then everything's sunshine and rainbows is exactly what made Hasshe and Ørsted fail to become the kind of hero your final chapter protagonist would grow into. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Aug 4, 2022 |
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Aug 4, 2022 16:44
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I guess actually the chain of events could be that she did okay marrying the champion because Streibough had advanced to the finals and they had assumed he could win with the power of love, or that Ørsted knew their business and would gracefully throw the match for their friendship, or even that Streibough had explicitly begged him to let him win, depending on who you want to read as culpable. I think the intended reading is that no one individual was the big bad guy and everyone including Ørsted played a part in the inevitable conclusion, so this point is deliberately never elaborated on. Except Uranus of course, dude was the actual hero of the story all along.
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Aug 4, 2022 17:21
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^Yeah, that's a fair view, though I feel a bit odd about the specific term incarnation, because that implies that Odio is some kind of tangible individual entity you can invite into your body, rather than something more abstract. I'd call it an "embodiment" of Odio, and I realize that etymologically that's the exact same word, but I at least associate incarnation with the act of embodying a conscious external spirit. Also on an entirely unrelated note, replaying the Edo Japan chapter and managed to recruit the Prisoner and finally met the pentagram boss that showed up in the intro and just never appeared on my pacifist playthrough, and I've managed to kill both superbosses and am at Ode Iou's doorstep with a kill count of 0 so far. There appears to be no way to avoid killing his bodyguards, because the Prisoner is with me and can't do his heroic rescue. Unless I'm missing something it is total bullshit that rescuing the prisoner makes pacifist impossible, but only forces you to get kills at the very end of the chapter. I am beginning to understand the complaints.
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Aug 5, 2022 18:51
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EclecticTastes posted:I think of Odio as something similar to the concept of the Buddha, where they're at once both a sort of vague ideal that can be referred to as an individual, and also something anyone can become by reaching a certain mental/spiritual state. In fact, Odio is kind of the opposite of the Buddha, conceptually, in that a person who becomes Odio is about as far from the ideals of Buddhist enlightenment as possible. Okay, yeah, then we agree, and that is a really apt comparison. E: And I thought the ninja chapter was easy to pull off because I managed to stumble into the correct order of events on my first try. I am only now learning what happens if you deviate from that!
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Aug 5, 2022 22:32
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I'm pretty sure they all have their own moveset outside of learning all of Roshi's moves, including Heavenly Peaks Descent at level 16. Dunno what movesets the others have; it's not listed on the wiki, but they start with a different amount of techniques and Lei certainly never picks up Hong or Yun's starting moves.
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Aug 8, 2022 14:07
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I don't recall how much they come up, but Chrono Trigger had "invisible" encounters towards the end, enemies that'd roll in from off-screen and engage you if you stepped on their trigger tile. Not actually random, but felt like it. And nope, Lei is faster than the ninja with just her base stats, and you can give her a permanent +20 speed buff in her chapter. She's far faster than anyone coming out of it.
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Aug 8, 2022 20:58
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Everyone runs at the exact same rate, except cube who leisurely skates as fast as the others run.
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Aug 9, 2022 18:36
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It does. Weapons, and gear from temporary party members, too. When I got there as Lei, she started out with a pile of fists in her inventory, belonging to her fallen comrades, and when I came across the Sundown Kid he was carrying Mad Dog's wardrobe with him. Be prepared for your inventory to be a big load of mess, unless there's a sort button I missed somewhere.
Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Aug 9, 2022 |
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Aug 9, 2022 23:37
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Last Celebration posted:Gameplay questions on the final chapter, mostly just curious on some stuff: so umm, do random encounters scale off your party level? I switched out Cube for Masaru to do his dungeon and as he started to skyrocket in levels I started seeing more weird stuff and I think I remember someone saying it generally works like that for certain parts of the game. What they said, but additionally, the encounters in Masaru's dungeon specifically are a couple levels higher than what you'd encounter elsewhere. That's its gimmick.
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Aug 10, 2022 17:25
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I’ve only played the remake and that’s my read as well. I think the alternate reading only appears in the contrast between the original and the remake; the remake version taken on its own does not imply Odio is something that exists independently of Ørsted's hatred and despair.
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Aug 29, 2022 12:34
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Presumably you could lock yourself out of areas if you missed enough, but the dungeon is composed of like three main areas separated by a lot of tunnels. You can get everything without ever using Heavenly Peaks' Descent, for example, and presumably the same goes if you're just missing one other ability. You need Wise Fox' Grace for the big reward, but I imagine there's paths there that only require one or two other skills, if any at all.
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Sep 18, 2022 17:05
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