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cinci zoo sniper posted:Bare tweet posts are fine for the Ukraine thread specifically, as long as it’s new information or something that otherwise adds to conversation in a reasonably apparent matter. Part of its intended purpose is to aggregate relevant situation updates, and embedded tweets are one of the more convenient ways to do that.
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Jul 30, 2022 23:54
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Sloppy assertions is another rule that's so subjective it's just bad and would be much more easily and better addressed by a mod (or the person reporting it) to instead post "hey you asserted X, do you have a source for that? " Because, unless you just cite sources for everything no matter how obvious, which is unwieldy, you're basically just rolling the dice on what a mod thinks is true or obvious and what they think is questionable. Post something a mod agrees with and thinks is true, and well you're just stating facts. Post something a mod disagrees with or thinks is false, well that's sloppy of you. I couldn't think of a rule more difficult to enforce evenhandedly if I tried. What's the harm of asking for a source, then if they don't have one they'll either have to drop it or break the objective rule of repeating an argument without addressing a rebuttal. Especially when this is apparently the process followed for people who want to make bigoted arguments, people arguing transphobia got exactly the "hi please cite sources for your assertions" treatment rather than the instant probation for their sloppy assertions that other people get. Not sure why this leeway is only possible for bigoted assertions.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:20
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Ytlaya posted:Edit: btw, I can't speak for others, but the recent moderation is the thing that finally got me to stop posting in d&d. Not because it's subjective/ideological (that's always been the case to varying degrees), but because I'm genuinely uncertain how to avoid getting zapped for things like "stale argument." I used to have a pretty solid grasp of "how to not get probed in D&D." I may have thought that many rules/standards were dumb, but I at least understood them and could navigate them.  I think the current policy of "probe first, ask questions/give warnings later" is incredibly stifling towards discussions. I'm glad LT2012 is trying to push back against that trend, but it's going to take a broader change among the mods if they want this place to be less toxic.VitalSigns posted:Well anyway, good example of how difficult it is, with the opaque reporting system, to put the onus on posters who have no visibility to provide examples of bias. Even if I had reported the right post, apparently another mod was supposed to look at it, so nothing was done until I brought the report up in here. We can always litigate individual posts, and I have no access to data about how many posts get reported etc. Meanwhile it's not hard to find other positions that are stomped on immediately. Yeah, this post is from just a couple pages before the Ghost Leviathan one you cited: (name redacted because I don't want anyone to get probated) quote:The left is by and large not interested in working within the system to change it, they'd rather stand outside and yell/make their own party with blackjack and hookers, which promptly explodes into infighting and backbiting. Basically Monty Python's People's Front of Judea skit all over again. That's about as stale, sloppy, and tired an argument as it gets, especially in DnD. Yet, no mod action. IMO if the mods can't or won't enforce the "original arguments only" rule consistently, then they just need to abandon the rule. e: and to be clear, my preference would be "abandon the rule." That goes for all rules that the mods can't or won't enforce at least somewhat consistently. Overall DnD needs less "push buttons first, issue warnings/guide the discussion later" moderation, not more. Majorian fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Jul 31, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2022 00:24
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I have a suggestion. U.S. current events should get its own subforum. The single thread format is a bottleneck and limits the amount of issues that can be debated & discussed at one time.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:24
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I didn't post in D&D all that often, but I feel I should say that I've kind of been avoiding the subforum altogether more recently due to the sheer volume of completely anodyne posts getting hit.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:25
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Majorian posted:I'm glad LT2012 is trying to push back against that trend, Yeah to give some positive feedback, I think what LT2012 said when he came on is a step in the right direction, I'm interested to see if he succeeds.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:32
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On the topic of moderation, I left the same feedback the above posters mentioned about the probation policy feeling too arbitrary in the last feedback thread. Almost identical to what some people are saying now, and also the main reason I've entirely given up on trying to post in d&d. On a semi related topic, I saw this particular probe yesterday in the Leper's Colony, and I've been on the fence about saying something or PMing someone. It's probably not worth a QCS thread or whatever but since there's a feedback thread, here it is. The probation reason just seems kind of hosed up and casually contemptful if not meant seriously, which is certainly how it comes across in context. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3993516&pagenumber=1759&perpage=40#post525182307 quote:Go to a therapist. User loses posting privileges for 1 day. If a moderator is sincerely suggesting that a poster seek therapy I'm hoping there's something more going on behind the scenes than what it appears at a glance. Just my 2c.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:33
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah to give some positive feedback, I think what LT2012 said when he came on is a step in the right direction, I'm interested to see if he succeeds. Agreed. It's what I tried to do as IK. I burned out for a variety of reasons, so if I have any advice for LT, that's basically it: don't burn yourself out.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:35
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speng31b posted:If a moderator is sincerely suggesting that a poster seek therapy I'm hoping there's something more going on behind the scenes than what it appears at a glance. I totally get why that's rude as gently caress. But then I looked at the history. CZS is the product of the thread he developed in, which is apparently terrible.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:39
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Majorian posted:
Yeah I think putting the onus on posters to report all these rule violations is the wrong answer, especially when people disagree with the rule and don't want to get people probated for it just to make a point (sorry Leviathan  )If you can find examples of unpunished violations every couple of pages on high traffic threads, then what is the rule even doing? Seems like it's just providing a way for people who want to wield the rules against their opponents to do that and if the only remedy is for everyone to report all these posts all the time is that making the forum better. If the rule is that important why is enforcement so haphazard and seemingly arbitrary? In short Arist posted:I feel I should say that I've kind of been avoiding the subforum altogether more recently due to the sheer volume of completely anodyne posts getting hit. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Jul 31, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2022 00:45
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some plague rats posted:It seems like there's a pretty fundamental conflict about what the mods here are trying to accomplish- is the idea to try and create quality debate, or just to punish every rule breach for it's own sake? Because you've now got a guy, the most active mod here, who from the outside seems to treat moderating like he's got a quota. Not "do these posts really interfere with the discussion" but "okay, that's a 2a, that's a 2.1.c, that can be a 1.1.1, that looks like a 3.1," the kind of broken windows approach to moderating that just makes it miserable to post here because any time you're discussing something there's a solid chance that you or the other person is going to get yanked out of the discussion with a big vaudeville hook for some ticky tacky rear end reason. LT 2012 is actually doing a good job because he seems to be leaning heavily towards not probating instead of "okay which rule should I probate this for". yeah, it's an approach that gives primacy to the rules over the outcomes they're supposed to achieve. it's literal broken windows ideology: Koos Group posted:I recognize even a warning can feel heavy-handed coming from a mod, but this is balanced with the need for everyone to understand what expectations are, and if someone breaks a rule with no response from a mod whatsoever people could come to think it isn't a rule or isn't enforced at all.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:48
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i support whatever style of moderation which will allow leon trotsky 2012 to have enough time an energy to continue posting write ups of breaking news in the us current events, those are one of the main reasons i read that thread i think kalstrams is fine as a mod, with the caveat that i've felt every single mod in this subforum over the last decade and a half has been "fine" except when evilweasle would hand out probes for not capitalizing letters or using punctuation, that was dumb
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Jul 31, 2022 00:49
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speng31b posted:On the topic of moderation, I left the same feedback the above posters mentioned about the probation policy feeling too arbitrary in the last feedback thread. Almost identical to what some people are saying now, and also the main reason I've entirely given up on trying to post in d&d. That poster has a long history of posting with the sole purpose of receiving reassurances that whatever they’re worried today - in context of the U/R thread it’s global nuclear war usually - is not about to pass. They’ve received repeated written warnings and probations for it in the thread, and other mods have told me that they post similarly in other threads at times as well.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:54
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cinci zoo sniper posted:That poster has a long history of posting with the sole purpose of receiving reassurances that whatever they’re worried today - in context of the U/R thread it’s global nuclear war usually - is not about to pass. They’ve received repeated written warnings and probations for it in the thread, and other mods have told me that they post similarly in other threads at times as well. Yeah, before I posted this I checked the user's rap sheet so I am aware of the history to some degree. Regardless, the post doesn't seem insincere, so a probe reason of "get therapy" still seems especially callous and not especially appropriate. Just my feedback.
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Jul 31, 2022 00:56
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speng31b posted:Yeah, before I posted this I checked the user's rap sheet so I am aware of the history to some degree. Regardless, the post doesn't seem insincere, so a probe reason of "get therapy" still seems especially callous and not especially appropriate. Just my feedback. Oh, I’m fairly sure they’re not a gimmick account, which is why they got a sincere recommendation. It’s absolutely not healthy to be concerned with dying in a hellfire on a weekly basis.
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Jul 31, 2022 01:04
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It's not a gimmick, they've also PM'd users in the past with the same stuff (lists of questions they're seeking reassurance on).
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Jul 31, 2022 01:06
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Oh, I’m fairly sure they’re not a gimmick account, which is why they got a sincere recommendation. It’s absolutely not healthy to be concerned with dying in a hellfire on a weekly basis. Hahaha, alright, if you feel like that response was appropriate and sincere I'll leave it there.
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Jul 31, 2022 01:06
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Why is ardennes still a d&d mod? He was already pretty much completely inactive before I became an Ik in d&d 3 years ago
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Jul 31, 2022 01:17
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Why is ardennes still a d&d mod? He was already pretty much completely inactive before I became an Ik in d&d 3 years ago He is not.
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Jul 31, 2022 01:19
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good work
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Jul 31, 2022 01:19
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Why is ardennes still a d&d mod? He was already pretty much completely inactive before I became an Ik in d&d 3 years ago They aren't, if you re-read the OP they have been demodded.
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Jul 31, 2022 01:20
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next you're going to tell me that helsing isn't a mod anymore is he still alive? does anyone know?
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Jul 31, 2022 01:21
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the moderation response to the anger at the insanely homophobic media framing of monkeypox being "well hold on now, it's very possible that those filthy homos are spreading the plague we should listen to the professionals on this one" is genuinely gross
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Jul 31, 2022 02:33
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Koos Group posted:I should clarify further in the rules what that guideline is intended for, because making jokes isn't the main thing it's attempting to prevent. It's to stop posts that are knowingly not making their point rigorously, or only doing it halfheartedly so they don't have to defend it, and then often using humor as an excuse. If you make a joke that isn't actually sneaking in a point, or one that we find genuinely funny (as it already states), the rule doesn't apply. Cool, thank you for clarifying.
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Jul 31, 2022 02:46
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Anonymous Poster B posted:Hi Koos thanks for letting people terrified of posting, like myself, contribute.
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Jul 31, 2022 03:14
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I have a modest proposal for the improvement of the general posting climate, as well as a potentially lucrative opportunity for Jeffery. Unless otherwise indicated, the following actions are to be conducted without explanation or announcement by moderators. 1. All non-mod users will be randomly and evenly assigned one of two invisible account profile tags, "SBG" and "PBG". This information will be stored server side and made inaccessible to others. 2. On a chosen date and time, Debate and Discussion will be a) backed up in its current state, b) hidden from viewers that are not signed in and c) silently mirrored into two versions, identical in every way. Each version will only be visible or accessible to users with a corresponding tag. 3. After a sufficient resocialization and self-selection period has occurred, both mirrored copies of Debate and Discussion will be wiped and the backed up copy from before Phase 2 will be restored with full access and visibility. 3a. Simultaneous with the reversion, all users with the SBG tag will receive stars on thar accounts (similar to mod stars, but with different styling or coloration). 4: After sufficient conflict has occurred, users will be able to purchase the SBG tag and corresponding star for $3 from the SA Store. Moderators will not be able to revert or change tag reassignments. 5: After another self-selection period, users will be able to purchase the PBG tag (and corresponding star removal) from the SA Store for $10. 6. After resettlement and homophily occurs, users will be able to purchase the SBG and PBG tag for other users from the SA Store for $100. Moderators will not be able to identify the source of tag reassignments. 7. By an automated process not to be adjusted by any admin or moderator, every x days where x is a number between 7 and 35, a random individual on the forums that is active in Debate and Discussion will have thar tag status switched. Again, this process will not be publicized in any way. The number of individuals to be reassigned can be adjusted by a designated administrator as necessary to maintain conflict. 8. In the event that stability appears imminent, the mirroring, splitting and isolation from step 2 can be repeated across the full forums. They never will learn. No. You can't teach a goon! Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 31, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2022 05:38
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:in fairness, the last few times a moderator suspected of cspam sympathies was modded the maxes-out-reports-daily crew absolutely lost their minds, so it makes sense that modern moderation is about attempting to appease those people what is the limit, anyway?
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Jul 31, 2022 05:53
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The maximum daily reports for users with platinum is 10 and literally the only user who I've seen max out their reports is B B, who throws tantrums when they catch a 6er and will max out spamming reports with their probation text for several days out of spite. The idea that there's some "crew" of users spamming frivolous reports in D&D (or CSPAM!) to own their posting enemies is not based in reality. edit: admins are not keen on stripping someone's reporting ability or otherwise punishing problem reporters because reports are a valuable way to interact with moderation and we don't want to discourage them. Instead, I asked for and received the go-ahead to publicly name and shame the only current problem reporter (B B) for being a huge whiny baby. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Jul 31, 2022 |
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Jul 31, 2022 05:58
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Fritz the Horse posted:The maximum daily reports for users with platinum is 10 and literally the only user who I've seen max out their reports is B B, who throws tantrums when they catch a 6er and will max out spamming reports with their probation text for several days out of spite. Yeah this is weird accusation that gets thrown around a bunch that I never understood, I've seen many complaints that there is some Discord where people organize and all report the same post to get a user probed as if the mods would not notice this and even then you can't report a post more then once. I agree though that revealing reports even dumbshit ones is a dangerous path to go down community wise.
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Jul 31, 2022 06:08
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oh okay. I was going to suggest dropping it down to around five but ten seems fine - I was under the impression that it was like 50 or something heh anyway my feedback is that the present and former moderators of D&D have over the last few years turned this place into somewhere that I would literally rather have my fingernails pulled out with a pair of pliers than engage in on an ongoing basis - but on the other hand driving out people like me seems to have been the point and at least these days most of you are pretty open about the goals for D&D. moreover the mod team's stated goals match its actions finally and I do sincerely appreciate that as well. I think you're giving the majority of the people who still post here what they want and that's great so keep it up
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Jul 31, 2022 06:10
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Pictured: the only current problem reporter in D&D or CSPAM or hell, really the forums at all. Literally the only person who maxes their reports like this. Why do I include reports from "John Kasich?" Because John Kasich is an alt of B B that they logged onto to spam even more reports when they maxed out on their main. 
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Jul 31, 2022 06:10
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Fritz the Horse posted:Pictured: the only current problem reporter in D&D or CSPAM or hell, really the forums at all. Literally the only person who maxes their reports like this. Why do I include reports from "John Kasch?" Because John Kasich is an alt of B B that they logged onto to spam even more reports when they maxed out on their main. I'm sure it's very annoying and all but honestly: lmao
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Jul 31, 2022 06:12
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Fritz the Horse posted:Because John Kasich is an alt of B B that they logged onto to spam even more reports when they maxed out on their main. like why haven't you just perma'd that account. this isn't feedback I'm just curious
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Jul 31, 2022 06:13
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some plague rats posted:I'm sure it's very annoying and all but honestly: lmao it's really not lol. it takes all of 3min to just copy-paste file them all as bullshit reports. that's why it's such a silly tantrum, it's not really any inconvenience to the mods or admins but it sure makes you look like a giant toddler
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Jul 31, 2022 06:14
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:lol okay how is that not abuse In every other forum I've ever seen, a permaban is just called "a ban". This is the only place on the internet being a bigot/dipshit/problem/etc is punishable by fine.
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Jul 31, 2022 06:15
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Discendo Vox posted:I have a modest proposal for the improvement of the general posting climate, as well as a potentially lucrative opportunity for Jeffery. Unless otherwise indicated, the following actions are to be conducted without explanation or announcement by moderators. I'll be forwarding this feedback to Jeffrey every day from now on until he relents and allows someone to make this happen. Thank you for your feedback.
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Jul 31, 2022 06:23
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Jaxyon posted:In every other forum I've ever seen, a permaban is just called "a ban".
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Jul 31, 2022 06:45
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:lol okay how is that not abuse imagine the stupidest possible system that requires many pointless steps to go through before permabanning someone and it can be vetoed at multiple steps of the process by a single person that's the permaban process at SA additionally there's an idea that permabans should only be used for crimes or extremely hosed up, probably illegal stuff and also people who threaten to charge back $10 'this person wastes a ton of peoples' time and is a loving drag that everyone involved would like gone' historically does not have much bearing on the process. especially not lately since jeff has enjoyed exercising his veto power over recent proposed permabans.
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Jul 31, 2022 07:19
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okay so what would happen if I registered like ten or more accounts and used them to create a simulacrum of political discussion in d&d superficially indistinguishable from earnest debate of differing points of view or is that allowed and people already do it
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Jul 31, 2022 07:38
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:okay so what would happen if I registered like ten or more accounts and used them to create a simulacrum of political discussion in d&d superficially indistinguishable from earnest debate of differing points of view seems like a foolproof plan, we've no way to prevent or respond to this. you should do it imo.
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Jul 31, 2022 07:41
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