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toterunner posted:The apostles maintained they had witnessed him rise from the dead while facing severe persecution for their beliefs. I'm familiar with Mormonism as an exmo, for example. Some early Mormons insisted they had seen supernatural things even while being greatly persecuted or shunned. Does that mean they were actually visited by the ghost of John the Baptist and what have you?
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Aug 2, 2022 22:01
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Harold Fjord posted:But it's something the black people are doing, and not any thing about the police? The claim appears to be that all police shootings are the result of police fearing for their lives, and since that applies 100% of the time without exception, police motivation is a constant and not a variable and can therefore be ignored.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:03
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toterunner posted:I guess some small part of it could be, but it clearly can't explain much of it since poor white kids outscore rich black kids. I was only able to find this article from 2003 from a few minutes of googling, so it could've changed but I doubt it. Table 2 on page 15 shows that black test takers with a family income of $80,000 to $100,000 do worse than white test takers with a family income of less than $10,000. quote:Overall, results indicate that family income and, in particular, extremely low levels of family income (what we refer to as poverty) has a meaning- ful contribution to the total SAT reasoning test scores for both Black and White test-takers, and helps to explain the SAT performance differences between the two social groups of students. 
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Aug 2, 2022 22:04
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Harold Fjord posted:But it's something the black people are doing, and not any thing about the police? That's the argument I made, and in response to a request for me to make a falsifiable argument. Why don't you try to falsify it? The last post was just a response to someone who interpreted my post as saying something I didn't say that's totally irrelevant to the argument. socialsecurity posted:So is that the standard of evidence that the Apostles said they saw him raise from the dead? I could get a hundred people together that say they've seen a sasquatch or been abducted by aliens does that mean those are true to? Claims about aliens or sasquatch aren't quite analogous, but I said this in response to someone asking for ordinary historical evidence for Jesus's resurrection. They asked that in response to a post where I said there was ordinary historical evidence for the extraordinary claim that Jesus rose from the dead. It was a reference to the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Clearly I don't think it means the resurrection of Jesus was true. Harold Fjord posted:OP do you have any research on genetic predisposition towards furtive movement? The statistics I cited are obviously a significant critique of a highly influential position. This sort of trolling is really ill suited and comes off like a desperate attempt at evasion.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:09
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I've never seen someone go full base on sucking themselves before but then I found OP. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 2, 2022 22:13
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toterunner posted:That's the argument I made, and in response to a request for me to make a falsifiable argument. Why don't you try to falsify it? The last post was just a response to someone who interpreted my post as saying something I didn't say that's totally irrelevant to the argument. I have to make sure I understand you correctly or all effort may be wasted, especially if you intend to fall back to a standard of "discredited" or "do conservatives believe". In this case, there is an an implicit underlying claim that "police are colorblind". I didn't want to address it unless I was sure that was the position you were taking. I think it's obvious as gently caress that the police are not colorblind, and you've done nothing to show that they are, so I feel comfortable dismissing your assertion which relies on the police being perfectly colorblind. I'm sure there are conservatives who will claim this belief still. Police aren't perfectly colorblind so shooting black people at a higher than expected rate is not obviously because of actions by those people. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Aug 2, 2022 |
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Aug 2, 2022 22:14
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I said some small part of it could be. Its hard to see how the statistic I posted is compatible with it being any more than a small part. Dubar posted:The claim appears to be that all police shootings are the result of police fearing for their lives, and since that applies 100% of the time without exception, police motivation is a constant and not a variable and can therefore be ignored. What if it applied 90% of the time? 80%? It seems like its still a problem for the narrative that black people are heavily underrepresented among people killed by police compared to cop killers (as well as pretty much every other violent crime perpetration or victimization category). There is an 0.997 correlation between the rate at which races (white, black, hispanic, or other) are fatally shot by police relative to population and the rate at which they kill police relative to population. I'm not sure how good an argument this is since using only four data points may produce an artificially high correlation and you have to make some assumptions to make the FBI data comparable to the washington post data when taking hispanic status into account. But gender disparity in cop killing is very close to the gender disparity in being killed by cops (men are 97% and 95% respectively). In fact, pretty much any demographic is represented among police shooting victims about as well as they are represented among cop killers...except for black people where its way less.
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Aug 2, 2022 22:29
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Does this thread discredit the view that conservatives are intellectually rigorous?
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Aug 2, 2022 22:56
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I'd say Conservatives in general* have done a fairly decent job of discrediting the implicit conservative position that Conservatives even care about conservative positions. Watching them bunny hop from a Free Trade loving Warmonger to a Fair Trade loving Isolationist in the space of a single election cycle while experiencing zero cognitive dissonance was certainly something. My current favorite, however, has to be DeSantis' Trump-but-smarter entrance onto the political scene (he's so hot right now) and "conservatives" nutting like the Colosseum crowd from Spartacus watching him practice for his Il Duce speedrun in Florida. *and a great deal of social psychology research into voter behavior Citations: On the trail: The Era of Big Government Republicanism Donald Trump’s ace in the hole: Voters don’t really care about policy Why they follow: It’s not just Trump. Voters happily adopt their leaders’ views Despite drift toward authoritarianism, Trump voters stay loyal. Why? DeSantis' Collateral Damage? Floridians and Conservatism Two eminent political scientists: The problem with democracy is voters Politics is personal Voter Preferences Reflect a Competition Between Policy and Identity Voters act on performance, not policy, new book says Platform or Personality? The Role of Party Leaders in Elections The Personalization of Politics in Anglo-American Democracies -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Aug 2, 2022 |
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Aug 2, 2022 23:04
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toterunner posted:I said some small part of it could be. Its hard to see how the statistic I posted is compatible with it being any more than a small part. Assuming for the sake of argument that these stats are even remotely correct, what do YOU think is different about black people that could explain this disparity? 
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Aug 2, 2022 23:10
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The list of credible positions is practically nonexistent. It's either bigotry or greed and usually both. They have no governing platform other than hurting people wo aren't white and straight.
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Aug 2, 2022 23:14
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toterunner posted:
is this from a study? if so could you link it please? this is a pretty strong claim given that you've said these two variables are almost perfectly correlated. that almost never happens when looking at real data.
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Aug 2, 2022 23:27
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forbidden dialectics posted:Assuming for the sake of argument that these stats are even remotely correct, what do YOU think is different about black people that could explain this disparity? I don't know, but its probably the same variable that makes Asians have a lower crime rate than whites, or Jews have better socio-economic outcomes than Christians.
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Aug 2, 2022 23:52
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Maybe there's something in their cultures that causes different minority populations (on a average, not as individuals) to respond differently to the constant cultural bombardment of white supremacy. Of course, the experience of said bombardment will also be different. You've aptly demonstrated some basic conservative stereotypes that minorities are bombarded with. Simultaneously weak and strong and all that. But that they tend to differ and lean certain ways. I think these two things might inform one another. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Aug 3, 2022 |
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Aug 3, 2022 00:21
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DeeplyConcerned posted:is this from a study? if so could you link it please? this is a pretty strong claim given that you've said these two variables are almost perfectly correlated. that almost never happens when looking at real data. I calculated it myself from the FBI link and the washington post link. Percent of cop killers/percent of population was around black 2.64, white 0.67, hispanic 1.04, other 0.38. For percent of victims/percent of population its black 1.94, white 0.75, hispanic 0.98, and other 0.68. Its probably such a high correlation because there are only 4 data points. If you measure how two variables correlate at only two data points, the correlation has to be either 1 or -1.
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Aug 3, 2022 00:24
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toterunner posted:I calculated it myself from the FBI link and the washington post link. Percent of cop killers/percent of population was around black 2.64, white 0.67, hispanic 1.04, other 0.38. For percent of victims/percent of population its black 1.94, white 0.75, hispanic 0.98, and other 0.68. Its probably such a high correlation because there are only 4 data points. If you measure how two variables correlate at only two data points, the correlation has to be either 1 or -1. this is a profound enough misapplication of statistics it would be genuinely less embarrassing if you'd just said that you made the number up
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Aug 3, 2022 00:48
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toterunner posted:I don't know, but its probably the same variable that makes Asians have a lower crime rate than whites, or Jews have better socio-economic outcomes than Christians. What makes you think that variable is intrinsic to any of those groups, and not a common external factor being inflicted on them?
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Aug 3, 2022 00:54
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Harold Fjord posted:Maybe there's something in their cultures that causes different minority populations (on a average, not as individuals) to respond differently to the constant cultural bombardment of white supremacy. That's a powerful theory. It could also explain differences between countries. Asian countries have higher test scores and lower murder rates than European countries, whereas African countries have lower test scores and higher murder rates. White supremacist colonialism was a global system, so Africans must have responded to it by investing less in education and commiting more crimes, whereas Asians must have responded to it by investing more in education and commiting fewer crimes. But it makes me wonder, is white supremacy the only stimulus African and Asian cultures would have had such a differential response to? What was it that primed their cultures to respond differently in the first place? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2022 00:57
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I'm going to forcefeed the OP fish bones this tire fire of a thread
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Aug 3, 2022 01:03
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Literally every conservative “position” is just sheer logical fallacy heavily steeped in tried and true linguistic turns and tricks. Which is why intellectual people who actually value the ticking and tying of premises to a logical conclusion tend to be liberal, because you can literally list out in bullet point form the positions liberals have and tease out the premises. You can’t do it with conservative positions at all in any meaningful way. https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/a-conservative-guide-to-rhetoric
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Aug 3, 2022 01:08
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forbidden dialectics posted:What makes you think that variable is intrinsic to any of those groups, and not a common external factor being inflicted on them? I don't know if its an internal or external factor. If white people enslaving black people made the latter have higher crime rates, then we'd have to find Asian people enslaving whites for a common external factor to explain why whites have higher crime rates. That would take us all the way back to the Mongols! And its even worse if we had to explain Christians having worse socio-economic outcomes than Jews that way. We'd have to go all the way back to the Radhanites!
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Aug 3, 2022 01:09
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toterunner posted:Ok. The ratio of white to black cop killers is 3/2 while the ratio of white to black police shooting victims is 2/1 (The page is taking a while to load but I have a spreadsheet on my computer based on it that says from 2016 to 2019 cops killed 1806 whites and 937 blacks). I contend on these grounds that the racial disparity in police shootings is caused by the disparity in the rate at which black and white people engage in behaviors that make cops think their life is in danger (which is well reflected by the disparity in the rate at which they ultimately kill a police officer). You're mistaking correlation for causation. Supposing that data is accurate, giving you as much good faith as possible, that data stlll makes just as strong a case that black people shoot cops more because the disparity in treatment by cops causes them to believe their lives are in danger.
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Aug 3, 2022 01:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I'm going to forcefeed the OP fish bones i dunno, i'm finding some humor value in a thread that started with "what conservative positions are discredited" turning into the OP arguing that liberals are too dismissive of the racial sciences by page three
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Aug 3, 2022 01:10
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:i dunno, i'm finding some humor value in a thread that started with "what conservative positions are discredited" turning into the OP arguing that liberals are too dismissive of the racial sciences by page three This is a good point and I feel compelled to acknowledge that I hereby stand corrected.
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Aug 3, 2022 01:12
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toterunner posted:That's a powerful theory. It could also explain differences between countries. Asian countries have higher test scores and lower murder rates than European countries, whereas African countries have lower test scores and higher murder rates. White supremacist colonialism was a global system, so Africans must have responded to it by investing less in education and commiting more crimes, whereas Asians must have responded to it by investing more in education and commiting fewer crimes. But it makes me wonder, is white supremacy the only stimulus African and Asian cultures would have had such a differential response to? What was it that primed their cultures to respond differently in the first place? Please go ahead and say directly whatever it is you're trying to say instead of this bullshit passive aggressive trolling.
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Aug 3, 2022 01:12
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toterunner posted:I don't know if its an internal or external factor. If white people enslaving black people made the latter have higher crime rates, then we'd have to find Asian people enslaving whites for a common external factor to explain why whites have worse socio-economic outcomes. That would take us all the way back to the Mongols! And its even worse if we had to explain Christians having worse socio-economic outcomes than Jews that way. We'd have to go all the way back to the Radhanites! Oh, ok, got it. You're starting from the assumption that there is some biological difference between the "races" and working backwards from there. You could have saved everyone a lot of time and effort by just saying you were a white supremacist dabbling in "race science".
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Aug 3, 2022 01:12
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toterunner posted:Yes, its an inaccurate portrayal of the conservative position. "Jesus rose from the dead" is a Christian position that hasn't been discredited. toterunner posted:It might be hard to falsify the resurrection of Jesus (there is ordinary historical evidence for this extraordinary claim so it just come down to how prohibitive your priors are). toterunner posted:Claims about aliens or sasquatch aren't quite analogous, but I said this in response to someone asking for ordinary historical evidence for Jesus's resurrection. They asked that in response to a post where I said there was ordinary historical evidence for the extraordinary claim that Jesus rose from the dead. It was a reference to the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Clearly I don't think it means the resurrection of Jesus was true. So what does discredited mean then? How is this a position you deem valid in the first place if you don't think it's true like why it is a "credited" position when aliens and sasquatches aren't? Like what is the difference a certain number of people believing something makes it credited or is it only stuff people believed in the past?
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Aug 3, 2022 01:15
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toterunner posted:I don't know if its an internal or external factor. If white people enslaving black people made the latter have higher crime rates, then we'd have to find Asian people enslaving whites for a common external factor to explain why whites have higher crime rates. That would take us all the way back to the Mongols! And its even worse if we had to explain Christians having worse socio-economic outcomes than Jews that way. We'd have to go all the way back to the Radhanites! Just so you know you are falling into the model minority trap. which you can watch about here if you want a helpful guide to it. Due to how we set our immigration system currently, it favors mostly wealthy educated families from India and China to come to the United States. edit: also since you are diving into arguments on racial realism, you should read about why what you are saying is very offensive and makes no sense other than empower the white power structure.
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Aug 3, 2022 01:15
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forbidden dialectics posted:Oh, ok, got it. You're starting from the assumption that there is some biological difference between the "races" and working backwards from there. No. I just don't think that white supremacy is a good explanation of the global pattern of whites being in between blacks and Asians on basically all statistics related to crime or education. Are oppression and genetics the only possible explanations? If they were, then these problems with the oppression theory would indeed offer strong support to the biological theory, but I don't think they are. If you think they're the only possible explanations, you should probably try to make a real defense of the oppression theory, because I don't think you'd want the alternative to be true. Mooseontheloose posted:Just so you know you are falling into the model minority trap. which you can watch about here if you want a helpful guide to it. Due to how we set our immigration system currently, it favors mostly wealthy educated families from India and China to come to the United States. But the ones who remained in Asia also have lower crime rates and higher test scores than white people. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2022 01:28
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forbidden dialectics posted:Oh, ok, got it. You're starting from the assumption that there is some biological difference between the "races" and working backwards from there. You could have saved everyone a lot of time and effort by just saying you were a white supremacist dabbling in "race science". https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1050391663552671744 it's interesting because there are some of those other points on which an argument can -far- more effectively be mounted, if you're feeling contrarian enough, but Lee Atwater's doctrine of obfuscation was born of a different era in conservatism. an entire language of strategic ambiguity, of Just Asking Questions, was developed to allow the politer conservatives to signal their support to racists without coming out and saying they consider black people subhuman. but back then, the conservative foot soldier expected his party to actually deliver something material to him in exchange for his vote. lower taxes, unfettered access to whatever he wants to consume, an end to those fuckers saying Vietnam was a mistake. that's out the window, now. all you get for voting Republican is the satisfaction of owning the libs. and in such an environment, why bother with the abstract, intellectual lib-ownage of arguing for a lower tax rate, when you can instead jump straight to accusing black people of being fundamentally inferior to whites?
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Aug 3, 2022 01:29
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:i dunno, i'm finding some humor value in a thread that started with "what conservative positions are discredited" turning into the OP arguing that liberals are too dismissive of the racial sciences by page three I'm surprised Taintrunner was able to hold off that long tbh
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Aug 3, 2022 01:44
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With all due respect, given the fact that OP inevitably spiraled into unironic race science advocacy, I would like to posit that this is why oppressing conservatives is a good idea, and would like to debate the pros & cons, merits & objections towards anti-conservative discrimination.
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Aug 3, 2022 01:47
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Its as if you all think only genetics could explain a worldwide pattern of whites being in between blacks and Asians on crime and education stats. I mean, Harold Fjord literally argued that there was some difference between black and Asian cultures that explained why they responded to white supremacy in opposite ways. So yes, I guess it was inevitable that I would point out that there were probably differences in black and Asian cultures that predate white supremacy.
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Aug 3, 2022 02:05
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toterunner posted:Its as if you all think only genetics could explain a worldwide pattern of whites being in between blacks and Asians on crime and education stats. No one's arguing this but you, you illiterate klansman. Stick to phrenology; reading clearly isn't your strong suit. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 3, 2022 02:13
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toterunner posted:Its as if you all think only genetics could explain a worldwide pattern of whites being in between blacks and Asians on crime and education stats. I mean, Harold Fjord literally argued that there was some difference between black and Asian cultures that explained why they responded to white supremacy in opposite ways. So yes, I guess it was inevitable that I would point out that there were probably differences in black and Asian cultures that predate white supremacy. are we even pretending to talk about conservative positions that aren't discredited anymore, or are we just talking about your positions on race science
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Aug 3, 2022 02:20
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forbidden dialectics posted:No one's arguing this but you, you illiterate klansman. Stick to phrenology; reading clearly isn't your strong suit. Huh? I didn't argue that. You literally quoted my post mocking your suggestion that the black/white, white/Asian, and Christian/Jewish gaps should be explained by a common external factor and said "Aha! I see you believe in race science!"
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Aug 3, 2022 02:29
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toterunner posted:I don't know if its an internal or external factor. If white people enslaving black people made the latter have higher crime rates, then we'd have to find Asian people enslaving whites for a common external factor to explain why whites have higher crime rates. I'd just like to point out how utterly insane this line of logic is, you seem to be laboring under the delusion that there can only be one singular cause for all things.
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Aug 3, 2022 02:37
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socialsecurity posted:I'd just like to point out how utterly insane this line of logic is, you seem to be laboring under the delusion that there can only be one singular cause for all things. I was responding to someone who implied these things were explained by "a common external factor being inflicted on them." Seems like you should address that to them, not me.
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Aug 3, 2022 02:40
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toterunner posted:I was responding to someone who implied these things were explained by "a common external factor being inflicted on them." Seems like you should address that to them, not me. Yeah you still aren't understanding, a common external factor doesn't mean that if Black people have lower economic status because of slavery that all lower economic status is because of slavery.
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Aug 3, 2022 02:41
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Folks. The communist revolution will start in this very thread. We will throw off the yolk of the jeffreyites and create a bastion of free speech and thought for all. And holy poo poo the op is about to bring a phrenologist to the thread to back up his ideas. I mean this is stormfront level debating
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Aug 3, 2022 02:42
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